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QANTASpower
Topic Author
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2002 3:07 pm

Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:34 pm

With Air NZ pulling out of this route there could be a chance for QF to enter in the medium term. Passengers could link up with QF's London and Frankfurt flights not to mention Jetstar flights.

Maybe a brand new 787 would do the trick.

From what I understand there would be no problems with Air rights at either end.

Do members think they could make it work given Air NZ had no through flights to Europe.
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5078
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RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:45 pm

Would seem logical as it would improve One World service to AKL from SE Asia & Europe and QF already operate a mini hub in SIN. Don't know if there would be suffiicient traffic.

However I supect QF does not really have the lift available at the moment to take it on, what with A380 delays and so on and by the time the new aircraft start to arrive in some numbers I supect the time may have passed.

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
QANTASpower
Topic Author
Posts: 514
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RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:51 pm

You would think there would be the demand as the One World link to New Zealand.

It could possibly be incorporated into a broader JSA with BA.

Remembering that QF operates a limited domestic service in NZ as well.

But you are right they have no spare equipment at the moment with all the A330's in full use.

They could not use a 767 as they need a quality product with PTV's and skybed.

[Edited 2006-07-18 13:51:57]
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:57 pm

I think that we may see Qantas jump into this market......QF has online connections to London and Frankfurt out of SIN as well as flights to other Asian cities. If QF can make flights from ADL, CNS, DRW to SIN work (I assume that much of the traffic on these routes connects to QF's European services at SIN), AKL should work as well.....I wonder if NZ will evertually regret their decision to drop SIN, its seems as if they traded SIN for HKG and have always wondered if NZ will have success with the very competitive HKG-LHR segment. But thats another story.
 
QANTASpower
Topic Author
Posts: 514
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RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:00 pm

My concern is that Singapore would go ballistic and again DEMAND Sydney to LAX rights.

They have to take this into account as well.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:03 pm

Quoting QANTASpower (Reply 4):
My concern is that Singapore would go ballistic and again DEMAND Sydney to LAX rights.

They have to take this into account as well.

If the current agreements would allow QF to open up AKL-SIN (do they?)....how could SQ use the AKL-SIN flight as a platform to gain SYD-LAX?
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:07 pm

Quoting QANTASpower (Reply 4):
My concern is that Singapore would go ballistic and again DEMAND Sydney to LAX rights.

They have to take this into account as well.

this may not be that big an issue - New Zealand has open skies with Singapore - and , IIRC , as part of the abortive takeover of NZ by QF a couple of years ago I seem to recall that NZ is now recognised as having an entitlement to any unused Australian rights and QF are recognised as having entitlement to any unused New Zealand rights ... of course I could have misinterpreted this in which case I am sure that someone will correct me very quickly
 
6thfreedom
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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:09 am

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:10 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
I wonder if NZ will evertually regret their decision to drop SIN, its seems as if they traded SIN for HKG and have always wondered if NZ will have success with the very competitive HKG-LHR segment. But thats another story.

Don't forget that SQ operates AKL and CHC.
As a * allinace partner, NZ could easily codeshare on these services.

HKG makes more sense, as it is a gateway to southern China, a much larger market than SIN, and also lacks * carriers to the south pacific. It also remains a oneworld stronghold with BA, CX and QF operating to London.
 
ANother
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RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:36 pm

Quoting QANTASpower (Thread starter):
From what I understand there would be no problems with Air rights at either end.

Are you sure of this? While Australian and NZ have a very liberal aviation agreement I don't think this extends to 7th freedoms.

If the Australia - Singapore agreement evasions 7ths, it would be reciprocal - meaning SQ could already operate OZ-US.

Of course QF can serve the market using 6ths - which would make much more sense.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:54 pm

The Republic of Singapore operates in an Open Skies environment, and the Government is against aerpolitical subsidies and protectionism. The hub status of Singapore trumps the interests of their national airline.

I would hope that New Zealand would also allow a third party operator to operate this route.

One wonders where the cries of geography have gone now with regards to a potential SYDAKLSIN mooted by users here.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:04 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 8):
While Australian and NZ have a very liberal aviation agreement I don't think this extends to 7th freedoms.

NZ operated 7th freedom SYD-LAX flights for several years - apart from a weekly ferry flight for maintenance this flights did not originate or terminate in New Zealand - they were effectively a stand alone sector
 
cloudyapple
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RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:11 pm

ANZ upgraded to a B772 from a B763 to Hong Kong recently.
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
ANother
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Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:24 pm

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 10):

NZ operated 7th freedom SYD-LAX flights for several years - apart from a weekly ferry flight for maintenance this flights did not originate or terminate in New Zealand - they were effectively a stand alone sector

You are correct - but I believe this specific route was mentioned in the agreement (and in exchange QF was given 5ths to operate Australia - AKL - LAX, which they still do). I don't believe that the agreement granted unlimited 7ths to the other country. Does anyone have access to the text?
 
VHVXB
Posts: 5322
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:54 pm

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:24 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 7):
HKG makes more sense, as it is a gateway to southern China, a much larger market than SIN, and also lacks * carriers to the south pacific. It also remains a oneworld stronghold with BA, CX and QF operating to London.

Both SIN and HKG are both good options. Like SIN, HKG also provides onward connections to LHR with QF. QF seem to be doing very good on the HKG-LHR route from what I hear
 
Fly2CHC
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:33 pm

Good topic.

I agree there is a demand, and I would expect to see QF launch a AKL-BNE-SIN, AKL-ADL-SIN, AKL-PER-SIN, or similar in the near future. This would be extremely easy for them to facilitate, particularly through SYD, MEL, or BNE as they would essentially be merely combining two existing sectors onto one flight number.

I'd be extremely surprised if launced a non-stop AKL-SIN (it's not their core market).
 
skyhigh
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 6:37 pm

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:38 pm

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 9):
One wonders where the cries of geography have gone now with regards to a potential SYDAKLSIN mooted by users here.

I take it you are being sarcastic but it's so hard to tell these days in the era of emails and text messages etc.!  Confused  Smile

Just in case you weren't, and for the benefit of those who aren't too familiar with the territory down here...

That is not the point, Qantas are not expecting to carry passengers from sin-syd via akl. They would purely be wanting to cash in on the gap in the market on the sin-akl segment now that NZ has dropped it. The flight can easily become one of QF's trans tasman flights between akl-syd, picking up local traffic in akl.

As already mentioned, QF and BA could mutually benefit by codesharing on this route, which would also be beneficial to oneworld travellers.
 
Robbie86
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 11:35 pm

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:40 pm

I think it would be wiser of QF to increase the AKL - SYD route and have passengers connect to SIN and Europe from there.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:48 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 12):
You are correct - but I believe this specific route was mentioned in the agreement (and in exchange QF was given 5ths to operate Australia - AKL - LAX, which they still do). I don't believe that the agreement granted unlimited 7ths to the other country. Does anyone have access to the text?

I was under the impression that the original agreement did limit it - but that as part of the abortive QF takeover of NZ a couple of years ago a fuller exchange of rights was negotiated ( I suspect that at the time QF wanted NZ to take over some of the lower yield routes which now seem to be candidates for Jetstar )
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:53 pm

Quoting Fly2CHC (Reply 14):
I agree there is a demand, and I would expect to see QF launch a AKL-BNE-SIN, AKL-ADL-SIN, AKL-PER-SIN, or similar in the near future. This would be extremely easy for them to facilitate, particularly through SYD, MEL, or BNE as they would essentially be merely combining two existing sectors onto one flight number.

and still having to deal with the nonsense of filing off the a/c at the Aussie airport , going through security and then getting back on the same a/c again - it doesn't really offer any benefit over the existing connections except for the fact of reducing your number of 'sectors' if travelling on a OW RTW fare . There is also the issue that if the a/c touches down in Australia however briefly many nationalities require transit visas . A non stop AKL-SIN even at an initial frequency of only 3 or 4 flights a week would enable QF to make more attractive connections over SIN for New Zealand to Europe traffic and pick up some incremental traffic that they cant do at the moment because of way transit pax are handled ( or rather 'mishandled' ) at Australian airports
 
AirbusA6
Posts: 1647
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:53 am

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:43 am

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 9):
The Republic of Singapore operates in an Open Skies environment, and the Government is against aerpolitical subsidies and protectionism. The hub status of Singapore trumps the interests of their national airline.

Hmm I think Air Asia would have something to say about that! Not that Johor Bahru airport is complaining  Wink
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2788
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:11 am

Quoting Skyhigh (Reply 15):
That is not the point, Qantas are not expecting to carry passengers from sin-syd via akl. They would purely be wanting to cash in on the gap in the market on the sin-akl segment now that NZ has dropped it. The flight can easily become one of QF's trans tasman flights between akl-syd, picking up local traffic in akl.

IF this AKL-SIN flight by QF were to happen, QF would expect to carry passengers from a country other than its own to another country, other than its own, without ever passing through its own country. Sounds a LOT like what SQ are asking with regards to SYD-LAX to me.

Of course, this is all speculation for the time being, but NZ cutting back to Asia is certainly an interesting avenue for QF to exploit.
 
VHVXB
Posts: 5322
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:54 pm

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:05 am

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 20):
IF this AKL-SIN flight by QF were to happen, QF would expect to carry passengers from a country other than its own to another country, other than its own, without ever passing through its own country. Sounds a LOT like what SQ are asking with regards to SYD-LAX to me.

Of course, this is all speculation for the time being, but NZ cutting back to Asia is certainly an interesting avenue for QF to exploit.

Well NZ did the same thing when they were flying SYD-LAX
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2788
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting VHVXB (Reply 21):
Well NZ did the same thing when they were flying SYD-LAX

You miss my point. I think it's great if airlines can do this, like EK does across the Tasman. But if QF were to enter AKL-SIN nonstop, it would contradict their arguments against SQ entering the SYD-LAX market.
 
planemanofnz
Posts: 4371
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:33 pm

QF should do it. They would definately be a more popular option to europe as at the moment you have to stop in SYD or MEL and then wither SIN, HKG or BKK e.t.c........

I wouldn't actually mind if they started the route with 767's to start with. They would have spare capacity with this aircraft type if the NZ/QF codeshare goes ahead.
 
Fly2CHC
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:41 pm

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 18):
and still having to deal with the nonsense of filing off the a/c at the Aussie airport , going through security and then getting back on the same a/c again - it doesn't really offer any benefit over the existing connections except for the fact of reducing your number of 'sectors' if travelling on a OW RTW fare . There is also the issue that if the a/c touches down in Australia however briefly many nationalities require transit visas .

As with TG, GA, BI, etc and more relevantly EK (the only competition to SQ for direct AKL-SIN services). Regardless if you fly on separate connecting flights, you are still going to require a transit visa.

What this option does is allow QF to actually leverage of the marketing benefits of 'direct' services, while realistically people in the industry know full well that there will be no tangible difference to if they had to change aircraft.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 18):
A non stop AKL-SIN even at an initial frequency of only 3 or 4 flights a week would enable QF to make more attractive connections over SIN for New Zealand to Europe traffic and pick up some incremental traffic that they cant do at the moment because of way transit pax are handled ( or rather 'mishandled' ) at Australian airports

This makes no sense for QF when Victorians and Queenslanders for instance whinge that they aren't even provided with sufficient QF international direct access, even though a market may exist - as suggested by the volume of foreign carriers pounding down the doors to enter the market or increase capacity. Admittedly much may be sixth freedom stuff, but then there isn't any real difference with other routes ex AKL - i.e. just because NZ doesn't fly AKL-BKK, AKL-KUL, AKL-DPS etc, doesn't mean that QF will jump in with non-stops when they offer better flexibility/options and substantially reduce their risk through transiting/transferring in Australia.
 
planemanofnz
Posts: 4371
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:57 pm

Quoting Fly2CHC (Reply 24):
i.e. just because NZ doesn't fly AKL-BKK, AKL-KUL, AKL-DPS etc, doesn't mean that QF will jump in with non-stops

Maybe not those routes, but SIN has a huge amount of connections to asia and europe aswell as India on both JQ and QF. I think you are missing the whole point here. SIN was mentioned because it is a QF mini hub, DPS is far from that, and KUL is not even served by the QF group at the moment!

Quoting Fly2CHC (Reply 24):
This makes no sense for QF when Victorians and Queenslanders for instance whinge that they aren't even provided with sufficient QF international direct access,

Well if they are complaining, then I think they should look at NZ before they go complaining about in-sufficient air access. By October, there won't even be 2 flights every day between AKL and SIN, and this is for a population of 1.3 million with endless connection opportunities on NZ. MEL will have 3 SQ flights, 1 EK flight, 1 (or maybe 2) QF flights and a few weekly Austrian flights, for a population of around 2 million. Brisbane is the same.

Quoting Fly2CHC (Reply 24):
when they offer better flexibility/options and substantially reduce their risk through transiting/transferring in Australia.

They would also decrease the price of the ticket as at the moment it is more expensive to fly to europe through australia, with tax.

[Edited 2006-07-19 07:59:11]
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7435
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:36 pm

I've wondered this in the past myself as to why QF wouldn't launch a non stop to SIN ex AKL, however I don't think they will now, at one stage they planned to fly AKL-DFW and also try and tap into the NZ dominated flights to the Pacific Islands, QF dropped AKL-PPT (now codeshared) and EZE so I don't no that I can see them flying non stop to SIN, I know there is the whole clear customs thing in OZ but QF offer plenty of conections via OZ from NZ to Asia/Europe now and I don't think they will cahnge that.
 
ZKNBX
Posts: 440
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:24 pm

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:47 pm

As I said in my previous msg (AIr NZ drops SING) today, that there are are some unanswered questions concerning NZ's withdrawl from SING and a QF entry on the route seems a little premature at this stage.
 
anstar
Posts: 3251
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:28 pm

Quoting ZKNBX (Reply 27):
As I said in my previous msg (AIr NZ drops SING) today, that there are are some unanswered questions concerning NZ's withdrawl from SING and a QF entry on the route seems a little premature at this stage.

NZ dropped the route as they were handing 95% of their pax onto other carriers at Singapore and thereofre sharing revenue for these flights. If QF were to commence the route then they would probably carry most of the onward pax (LHR/FRA) from SIN that NZ had previously handed over.
 
ZKNBX
Posts: 440
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:24 pm

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:37 pm

Quoting ANstar (Reply 28):
If QF were to commence the route then they would probably carry most of the onward pax (LHR/FRA) from SIN that NZ had previously handed over.

Not sure about this... you assume a lot of NZ passengers went just to LHR and FRA, where in my understanding there were also many connections to territories not served by One World from Singapore, like India, Thailand, M'Sia and Indonesia via Sing (I think Australian served SIN-DPS until recently, and it may have reverted back to ZF can anyone enlighten me?).
 
anstar
Posts: 3251
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:45 pm

Quoting ZKNBX (Reply 29):
Not sure about this... you assume a lot of NZ passengers went just to LHR and FRA, where in my understanding there were also many connections to territories not served by One World from Singapore, like India, Thailand, M'Sia and Indonesia via Sing (I think Australian served SIN-DPS until recently, and it may have reverted back to ZF can anyone enlighten me?).

Perhaps Jetstar with a QF code might serve these? I think it would be an intersting market for QF. However, I doubt we will ever see it eventuate as QF is hardly a huge risk taker.
 
VHVXB
Posts: 5322
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:54 pm

RE: Qantas From Auckland To Singapore

Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:58 pm

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 22):
But if QF were to enter AKL-SIN nonstop, it would contradict their arguments against SQ entering the SYD-LAX market.

Thanks for clarifying.

Quoting ANstar (Reply 30):
However, I doubt we will ever see it eventuate as QF is hardly a huge risk taker.

And very predictable. Like ZK-NBT mentioned QF is probably more determined to fly Dallas and probably Chicago.

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