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pdanicic
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JAT To Get New Management

Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:48 pm

Belgrade - Serbian government Minister of Finance, Mr. Mladjan Dinkic, announced yesterday that national airline of Serbia "JatAirways" is likely to get a new management, according to tender that will be published soon. New management team will be held responsible for managing the airline operations and investing into the new fleet. In the interview to the Serbian Television, Dinkic explained that Jat doesn't have it's own assets, nor the government, to finance the new airplanes, so the only option is to give managing rights to some foreign, renowned airline.
Mr. Dinkic also stated that, in this condition, Jat can't be proper ambassador of Serbia, and that it has to change really soon.

What is your opinion about this? Sincerely, I hope that Jat will eventually become respectable airline, for the benefit of the region.
If ain't Boeing - it ain't going :)
 
airways1
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:02 pm

A new name would also be a good idea now, since JAT is pretty meaningless.
 
pdanicic
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:26 pm

Quoting Airways1 (Reply 1):
A new name would also be a good idea now, since JAT is pretty meaningless.

We will see what will be the new management strategy. Personally, I think that the main issue is to define what will be Jat main goals in the next period: routes, fleet etc... Image is really important, but I don't think that anyone will change the name from JatAirways which is currently in use.
Unofficial information is that Deutsche Lufthansa A.G. is interested in taking over Jat management. We will see if that is true.
If ain't Boeing - it ain't going :)
 
JoKeR
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:10 pm

Quoting Pdanicic (Reply 2):
Unofficial information is that Deutsche Lufthansa A.G. is interested in taking over Jat management. We will see if that is true.

I've heard the same thing and at present it does appear that LH may take over; that would be a very welcome change!
 
pdanicic
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:46 pm

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 3):
I've heard the same thing and at present it does appear that LH may take over; that would be a very welcome change!

Yes, I do hope that LHs know-how could help returning Jat to some better skies  Smile
If ain't Boeing - it ain't going :)
 
krisyyz
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:59 pm

A little bit off topic, but I was wondering if JAT is still considering some trans-atlantic ops? I know they got their hands on 2 B762's but there was some problem with the FAA and Canada Immigration, have does problems been settled? What happened to the B767s?, for some reason I remember one of them being painted in JAT's scheme.

KrisYYZ
 
JoKeR
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 5):
I know they got their hands on 2 B762's

They planned to but never did.

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 5):
for some reason I remember one of them being painted in JAT's scheme.

Nope, none were painted, though applying JAT's livery is not that difficult Big grin
 
pdanicic
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:06 am

B767 was planned, and even the crews were trained in Stockholm. However, until present date no 762 came to Jat  Sad As much as I know, Jat abandoned plans to reopen intercontinental flights this season, but yet again, they are talking about restarting them...

Sometimes, I just don't figure it out. They really deserve to have someone else to manage them, since they showed that they are completely useless  banghead 
If ain't Boeing - it ain't going :)
 
Aleksandar
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:12 am

I was a bit confused. Patnership, as suggested, means that foreign partner would have no more than 49% of the company.

Quoting Pdanicic (Reply 2):
Unofficial information is that Deutsche Lufthansa A.G. is interested in taking over Jat management.

Not a surprise. Lufthansa was interested some ten years ago, too.

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 3):
I've heard the same thing and at present it does appear that LH may take over

Why not? Germans might teach them how to work and behave.

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 6):
though applying JAT's livery is not that difficult

You think it's easy to apply such an intricate livery?  Wow!  Silly  Wink
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
 
pdanicic
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:37 am

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 8):
Why not? Germans might teach them how to work and behave.

Absolutely agree Big grin Deutschland, uber alles  bouncy   bigthumbsup 

LH certanly has the know-how that Jat needs a lot!
If ain't Boeing - it ain't going :)
 
Aleksandar
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:52 am

Quoting Pdanicic (Reply 9):
LH certanly has the know-how that Jat needs a lot!

Now, the mistery is still unsolved. Will Germans be able to make people at JAT how to behave? Somehow, I think people at LH don't have the slightest idea how hard it is going to be.
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pdanicic
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:35 pm

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 10):
Now, the mistery is still unsolved. Will Germans be able to make people at JAT how to behave? Somehow, I think people at LH don't have the slightest idea how hard it is going to be.

I think that no one is aware what bunch of only-money-interests-me people work for Jat  Smile
If ain't Boeing - it ain't going :)
 
vlada
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:21 pm

There are some comments published in today's newspapers with clear oposition to the suggestions from Serbia's Government regarding their proposed scheme to re-structure/sell JAT Airways to some strong foreign airline.

Of course, this oposition might be a result of "only-money-interests-me" people working in JAT, but there might be another side to that:

it really is questionable whether some serious airline is interested in salvaging JAT, or is it interested just in the market/passenger loads/routes JAT is serving. Although routes will not be such a big issue once the Open skies plan is introduced. There is the issue of the investment somebody should make in order to acquire JAT, renew the fleet, re-structure the company, etc... and only to get half of the profits (anyway, one half is going to go to the Government of Serbia). Does that pay off?

If there is an intention to save JAT as a national flag carrier, wouldn't it be better to find a management (or a strategic partner) willing to do the re-structuring on a commission-based contract, like the job EQ did at Srilankan airways? Maybe that would be a better idea, of course IF the Government of Serbia is at all interested in JAT's future anymore? I know it is very far-fetched, but, on a long run, it might turn out that Serbia could keep it's mainline carrier that way.

Regards,
Vlada
 
pdanicic
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:11 pm

I do think that acquire of JatAirways could only benefit to the passengers and the owner, Serbian government. However, that will be only true if the tender works well and the process of restructuring go in a certain way, thus enabling Jat to "stand up" to it's feet. The main goal is Jat shouldn't be feeder airline to LH or any other alliance-based carrier, like OU and JP are. Route network from BEG is much bigger than from ZAG or LJU, especially to Middle East (BEY, DXB) and to North Africa (TUN, CAI, TIP). Also, much higher number of passengers is anticipated from BEG, then in neighbouring capitals (ZAG, LJU, SKP for example).

The main issue is that a new "know-how" needs to enter JatAirways. I do think that there are no company in Serbia that could help building "new" Jat. Also, there are no serious fleet & route development plan for JU since 1992. That is something that has to be changed ASAP. Achieving the positive results with passengers, and having profit, means that Jat needs to define itself: it's routes, it's fleet, it's safety standards, it's cost structure etc....

There are a lot of things about Jat we can discuss now, but I think it is much better to wait and see what will happen when that "new company" takes over Jat Airways. Personally, I'm looking forward to it. Currently, Jat is overcrowded with non-airline-related personel, restructuring process is taking place only on paper: Jat Technics, Jat Catering employees are still on Jat Airways paylist, altough both companies are "independent" from Jat.
If ain't Boeing - it ain't going :)
 
vlada
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:02 pm

By the way, there are some clashes in JAT Technic, judging from the ad published in today's "Politika" newspaper: it seams that the airline engineers are having difficult times at JAT Technic, since other syndicates (Technicians' syndicate, non-technical staff's syndicate, ...) are over-rulling all of their demands for bigger paychecks, etc... Probably there's also another side to that story, eh?

Sad things are happening to JAT. I'm just hoping the light at the end of the tunnel is not too far away.

Regards,
Vlada
 
mig21umd
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:27 pm

Quoting Pdanicic (Reply 13):
Also, much higher number of passengers is anticipated from BEG, then in neighbouring capitals (ZAG, LJU, SKP for example).

I will be very interested to know why you believe 'higher number of passengers is anticipated from BEG than ZAG'.

cheers
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you long to return
 
pdanicic
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:12 pm

Quoting Mig21UMD (Reply 15):
I will be very interested to know why you believe 'higher number of passengers is anticipated from BEG than ZAG'.

Well, you can look to that in several positions: firstly, if you look at how many Serbs are abroad, secondly, if you look at various businesses Serbs do in the countries of EU and Middle East, and finally, if you are aware of the fact that geopoliticaly, Belgrade is the crossroad of the Balkans - connecting Europe with Turkey and Middle East.
As ZAG and LJU are served from about 10 or little bit more destinations, BEG is served from over 20, with possibilities for even more. Instead of ZAG, Croatian sea cities are much more prominent (remember, BA dropped ZAG in favour of DBV, also BA dropped LJU as well as LX). Also, amount of passengers that flow through BEG in 2005 was about 2,5 million, while ZAG had 1,5 million. Just if you look at how many citizens Belgrade has, you can also find a reason why we anticipate higher traffic amount than ZAG or LJU.
Regarding Serbs working abroad, I'm not sure if you know that 10 Serbian civil engineering companies worked on the Middle East and North Africa in the 80's, with their jobs continued from 2000. Countries like Syria, Lebanon, Iran, UAE, Kuwait, Libya, Egypt and Algiers were places where our companies were working on big projects. High number of them is living there since then, so there is a high potential of route developing there (currently, JU flights to Middle East are almost always full). You can't say the same for ZAG or LJU.

However, it remains to be seen if JU or Centavia, or even some other airline, will respond to the traffic demand and make BEG even more visited

[Edited 2006-07-24 16:13:54]

[Edited 2006-07-24 16:15:00]
If ain't Boeing - it ain't going :)
 
JoKeR
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:45 am

Quoting Pdanicic (Reply 16):
However, it remains to be seen if JU

 no 

Quoting Pdanicic (Reply 16):
Centavia

 yes 

Quoting Pdanicic (Reply 16):
will respond to the traffic demand and make BEG even more visited
 
pdanicic
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:45 am

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 17):
no

I agree, but hey, I had to say Big grin
If ain't Boeing - it ain't going :)
 
Aleksandar
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:43 am

Quoting Mig21UMD (Reply 15):
I will be very interested to know why you believe 'higher number of passengers is anticipated from BEG than ZAG

PDanicic explained most of it, but there is also one interesting difference between JAT and Croatia Airlines. While JU network is concentrated in BEG, OU network is dispersed between ZAG, SPU and to smaller degree DBV. It can also be seen in passenger and cargo numbers. Due to the fact that Croatia relies on tourism, OU can never abandon or even cut some of flights from Adriatic cities, while JAT can concentrate on a single hub. That is also one of the reasons.
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
 
mig21umd
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:53 pm

Interesting points but I do not completely agree  Smile .

I always held the feeling that businesses in Croatia are not doing enough to 'develop' aviation in Croatia but are happy to sit back and go along with the flow (eg, OU being happy to continue ops with a small fleet while they could operate at least twice the amount of aircraft they currently have.) while in Serbia you always hear of new initiatives and ideas being brought to the table planned and than nothing! (eg trans Atlantic flights and Airbuses in Jat fleet.)

Croatia has come along way due to reforms they have implemented. Unemployment is quite low approx 12% (low considering the region history) and economic growth of almost 5% per annum. My point is that if a Croatian company showed some initiative, with a good business plan and had a go at implementing some of the ideas coming out of Serbia (such as expanding network in Europe and the Middle East introducing trans Atlantic flights and flights to Asia and Australia.) than they would have a much better chance AT THIS TIME than a Serbian company at pulling it off.

In terms of Zagreb Airport requiring a major make over: The new 'Master plan' calls for construction to begin in 2008 (new terminal) completed in 2011. Also calls for a second runway to be completed by 2020.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreb_Airport

Now that Croatia/Hungary are almost cretin to be host countries for the Euro 2012 football tournament (After there only obstacle Italy seems to be out of the race due to corruption scandal) I can't see the redevelopment of Zagreb delayed any longer.

Looks like Belgrade and Zagreb are set to go head to head in establishing themselves as the regions main hub.

Also, there are a lot more Croatian nationals or second generation living out side Croatia than Serbians out side of Serbia.

and

Croatia also has a lot workers and business in the Middle East and North Africa through large Croatian companies such as INA.

Cheers.
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you long to return
 
pdanicic
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:05 pm

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against Croatia or Slovenia and the fact that they are going to develop their aviation. I'm truly an aviation fan, and I would really love to see region is growing with flights all over the world. Surely, there will be place for all: Jat (or some new airline), Croatia, Adria etc...

However, it seems that currently Croatia Airlines is just another LH feeder airline, with a lot of charter work during summer, as Aleksandar mentioned, from SPU, and DBV in certain way. They are just doing that - feeding LH hubs. Doing this, I see no way for their expansion. If they change their philosophy, that's a completely different thing.

On the other side, Jat Airways, is state-rulled airline, overwhelmed with costs, high number of employees, old fleet, and a lot of problems that have to be solved in near future. However, JU has quite good route network, ranging from LHR to DXB, and also a lot of charter flights from BEG to destination in Africa, Middle East and Mediteranean. The problem with JU is that they still talk about USA flights, and nothing about how they will replace ageing fleet, reduce the number of employees, restructure itself. If they continue that way, I see no future for them, since the Open Skies is coming soon. But, as I said for Croatia, if they change their philosophy, that's a completely different thing.

Quoting Mig21UMD (Reply 20):
Also, there are a lot more Croatian nationals or second generation living out side Croatia than Serbians out side of Serbia.

And I do not agree with you here. There is 8 million Serbs in Serbia (Serbs nationally), and about 4 million Serbs living out of Serbia.

[Edited 2006-07-25 09:25:08]
If ain't Boeing - it ain't going :)
 
mig21umd
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:20 pm

Pdanicic, I never took offence to anything you stated. I just feel that Belgrade and Jat, which I hope can sought it self out, (we have already seen too many airline pioneers lost to history so I hope they can continue to fly in the future) will find tough competition in the region from Croatia.

Regards to Croatia Airlines it seems they are happy to be a feeder for LH. Maybe they feel safe this way.

There is talk of a new carrier which will be called Dalmatia.hr. They have extravagant plans of flying the Atlantic and to Australia with A330's, and establishing a European network initially with a mixed 737/A320 fleet.
(I wish the lots of luck!)
I guess we will have to wait and see what will come of this.

Quoting Pdanicic (Reply 21):
And I do not agree with you here. There is 8 million Serbs in Serbia (Serbs nationally), and about 5 million Serbs living out of Serbia.

I terms of Croat/Serb populations around the world I always believed Croatia had more expatriates than Serbia.

In Australia for example, the 2001 census resisted 52 000 Croatian born Australians with 170 000 Australians stating they have Croatian origin.
Serbia on the other hand resisted 25 000 Serbian born Australians with 97 000 Australians identifying themselves as having Serbian Origin.

Did a quick search on the United States where I found over 400 000 Croatian apposed to around 140 000 Serbians. I don't know if these figures represent Croat or Serbian born or origin. In other words both figures could be at least double when including American born Croat or Serbs.

Hope this clears things up a little.
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you long to return
 
vlada
Posts: 97
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:48 pm

Quoting Mig21UMD (Reply 22):
In Australia for example, the 2001 census resisted 52 000 Croatian born Australians with 170 000 Australians stating they have Croatian origin.

Having what you said in mind, I wonder if those plans are that extravagant at all, or is it a normal development step in serving such a population of Croatians down under?

Quoting Mig21UMD (Reply 22):
Did a quick search on the United States where I found over 400 000 Croatian apposed to around 140 000 Serbians.

I find these figures a bit confusing... When I went to the States in 2004, I was told that that many Serbians lived in Chicago alone (of course, that may be an exaggeration)  Confused Doesn't matter, anyway. The point here is that someone should serve all of those people over there and their relatives in their native countries.

Anyway, I feel that this discussion has wondered a bit away from the original topic, which was JAT's future development and it's prospects (in the Region, in Europe, and will it re-establish overseas services or not), or whether JAT is going to live to see the faith of Balkan and some other former flag carriers in the region.

Regards,
Vlada
 
mig21umd
Posts: 318
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:30 pm

RE: JAT To Get New Management

Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:56 pm

Vlada,

I noticed I went a bit off topic. Sorry about that.  Smile
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you long to return
 
pdanicic
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:03 pm

I'm also sorry for some off topic lines  Wink As for Dalmatian.hr, as much as I know, the project is ceased to exist, at least I read that somewhere on the net...maybe on croplus forum, I'm not sure...
If ain't Boeing - it ain't going :)
 
vlada
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:25 pm

RE: JAT To Get New Management

Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:58 pm

Guys,

Everything cool  Smile ... Except, obviously, at JAT where things seam to heat up by the minute.

Regards,
Vlada
 
Aleksandar
Posts: 2941
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2000 11:43 pm

RE: JAT To Get New Management

Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:29 pm

Quoting Mig21UMD (Reply 20):
I always held the feeling that businesses in Croatia are not doing enough to 'develop' aviation in Croatia but are happy to sit back and go along with the flow (eg, OU being happy to continue ops with a small fleet while they could operate at least twice the amount of aircraft they currently have.)

OU could operate twice as big fleet during the high season, without a doubt, but what about the rest of the year? Last year, Croatia's tourism minister said that there is always a lack of plane to satisfy the demand which is growing. OU does what they think is safe and it is not a bad idea especially since LCCs entered the market.

Quoting Mig21UMD (Reply 20):
while in Serbia you always hear of new initiatives and ideas being brought to the table planned and than nothing! (eg trans Atlantic flights and Airbuses in Jat fleet.)

Exactly, but speaking of Airbuses. the contract was signed during Milosevic's regime and there are so many things that are not good for the airline. I'm not sure, but one point of that contract also suggests that JAT could not do heavy maintenance on those planes. I'm not sure if that's true, so some confirmation or denial would be nice and welcome.
As for trans Atlantic flights, I'm quite disappointed, but there is one thing that both OU and JU know well about those services. Full planes do not necessarily bring profit and for that you need high yield passengers. I doubt OU would have strength to confront Star Alliance partners in that segment and I'm not sure if JAT have enough money to provide a really good service for business passengers.
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
 
JoKeR
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:34 pm

Guys, when are we going to see scheduled services between BEG and ZAG?
I'm sure there is a huge market! What's going on with this?
 
Aleksandar
Posts: 2941
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 28):
Guys, when are we going to see scheduled services between BEG and ZAG?

Some day, I guess.
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
 
pdanicic
Topic Author
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RE: JAT To Get New Management

Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 27):
I doubt OU would have strength to confront Star Alliance partners in that segment and I'm not sure if JAT have enough money to provide a really good service for business passengers.

Absolutely agree. If JU starts with transatlantic flights, LH, BA, AF, KL, or other airline, JU passengers use for crossing the pond, could easily dump prices, and be much more competitive than JU, with lower prices etc...

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 29):
Some day, I guess.

I'm not sure.... But, who knows, let us hope it will be established again  Smile
If ain't Boeing - it ain't going :)

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