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f.pier
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Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:53 am

After the huge Airbus order I sincerely don't think SQ is so unhappy with its A345s.
Maybe they could continue their ultra longhaul service wityh SQ.
 
zvezda
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RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:57 am

SQ reports that at current oil prices, they are losing money operating their A340s. The problem is no one wants to buy them. With oil above $40/bbl, they would be most attractive to someone with low utilization needs e.g. a VIP role. In a VIP configuration, an A340-500 would have anywhere-to-anywhere range.
 
aukahkay
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RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:02 am

Could the Sultan of Brunei's A340 be purchased second hand from SQ?
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:06 am

I'd put my money on SQ selling the A340-500's back to Airbus as part of the deal to get A350XWB-900R's (this is part of the 20-plane A350XWB-900 order). The A345's will likely be sold for executive configuration airplane, probably as Presidential planes in Europe.  Smile
 
f.pier
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RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:07 am

ANd will the 350XWB have the same range of the A345?
 
kappel
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RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting F.pier (Reply 4):

I belive the -900R will, but that one isn't due for a long time (after 2014?)
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Leskova
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RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:13 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 3):
I'd put my money on SQ selling the A340-500's back to Airbus as part of the deal to get A350XWB-900R's (this is part of the 20-plane A350XWB-900 order).

Somewhat unlikely - if it had been part of the deal, I'm quite certain we'd have heard about it by now, i.e. through SQ's filing at the Singapore Stock Exchange.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 3):
The A345's will likely be sold for executive configuration airplane

Wouldn't really be surprised if that did happen, though I also wouldn't be surprised if they'd find a new home with another airline either.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 3):
probably as Presidential planes in Europe.

Now that, I seriously doubt - I don't think any country in Europe is currently in the market for a plane in that price range...
Smile - it confuses people!
 
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solnabo
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RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:18 am

Why would they dump 345? SQ don´t have the 772LR in orderbook, 19 of 773ER AFAIK.

Kingfisher order 5 A345, so there is still hope for 340s, maybe 2 of them from AC, who knows.

Micke//SWE  

[Edited 2006-07-23 18:32:32]
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airbazar
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RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:24 am

I suspect the A345 will eventually be replaced by the A350 which according to the specs on Airbus' web site both have about the same range.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:33 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 8):
both have about the same range

You're joking me right? I see how 4 engines transitioning to 2 engines is saving money, but is this an estimate on the range?

MCOflyer
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gigneil
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RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:35 am

Why would he be joking? The A350 is a larger, more capable plane.

N
 
kaitak744
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RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:50 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 8):
I suspect the A345 will eventually be replaced by the A350 which according to the specs on Airbus' web site both have about the same range.

The thing here is, having the same range is exactly what SQ doesn't want. They want to do SIN-EWR with some cargo in the holds. For them, a A350-900ER or the 777-200LR (or possible 787-10ER) would be ideal. Otherwise, it is literally cheaper to just keep the A345s.
 
Ex_SQer
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RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 6):
Somewhat unlikely - if it had been part of the deal, I'm quite certain we'd have heard about it by now, i.e. through SQ's filing at the Singapore Stock Exchange.

I'm not sure of the contents of the filings, but precedence seems to indicate they do not include such information. For example, the 343 trade-in deal with Boeing was mooted as early as the mid-1990s when SQ and Boeing were negotiating the first 777 order, and it still caught many people by surprise when it was announced a number of years later.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:33 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 1):
SQ reports that at current oil prices, they are losing money operating their A340s.

Can you provide a link?


PH
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mariner
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RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:41 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 3):
I'd put my money on SQ selling the A340-500's back to Airbus as part of the deal to get A350XWB-900R's (this is part of the 20-plane A350XWB-900 order).

If they were going to do that, I don't think it has been announced.

In the present sutuation it seems on odd thing to keep under the table.

mariner
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PolymerPlane
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RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 13):

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 1):
SQ reports that at current oil prices, they are losing money operating their A340s.

Can you provide a link?

There was a thread about 1 month ago discussing about this matter. SQ's CEO said that they are not making money on the A345 operations, and if SQ were to make the decision today, they would not have started the operation. You can use the search engine or google to find the article. It was a direct quote, so, it must be credible.

Cheers,
PP
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SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:29 am

I am not a fan of the A340-500 (at Singapore Airlines Limited anyway).

A daily analysis from 01 July 2005 to 10 July 2006 has revealed that the A345 USA only ops have been delayed to the tune of 129 hours and 4 (3) minutes in total [**Where the delay was explicity attributed to an aircraft defect, or where the aircraft was changed around (most of the time to another A345 but a small number of changes to B772ERs) or where the reason was shown to be a miscellaneous one long enough to warrant a suspected tech problem**]

One could argue that this is because of the small fleet size (of 5) which makes tech problems appear more visibly.
One could also argue that the nature of ULR missions may bring about problems unique to the A345 fleet.

While I accept such arguments, the evidence at the very least implies a possible problem with reliability or serviceability, some mystery issue with the A345 or just a confirmation of the two points above.*[edited]

Furthermore, if the rumours are to be believed, the A345 cannot carry First Class due to weight restrictions (in SIA's case only).

A Boeing 777-200LR could do SIN-LAX / EWR more profitably. The increased cargo space, the inclusion of First Class and less executiveconomy class seats could increase overall yield. However, has the time passed for the B772LR's technology? I don't know.

A Boeing 787-9 or Airbus A350-900R could do it too. However, I am assuming that if this is the case, wouldn't SIA operate 2 nonstops to both LAX and EWR? One then considers the fact that already we have two sets of cabin crew (and two sets of flight deck crew?) on each A345 flight. On a daily basis would operating four ULR flights with 8 cabin and 8 flight crew each way be economical? Again, who knows.

One is confident that the demand is there. We have long had reports of very good loads in Raffles (Business) Class (configuration 64J) and ample demand in executiveconomy (117).

Jet Fuel is trading in Singapore at around US$90 per barrel. At this price the A345s are not making a profit (source: Mr. Chew Choon Seng quoted in Aviation Daily, 12 June 2006). For reference, he was also quoted as saying that A345 ops have not been profitable since the end of 2004 (presumably calendar year).

With the protracted conflict in the Middle East and general high demand from emerging markets, one can only see the price of jet fuel rising.

This unfortunately leads to the following questions:
  • Can the Boeing 777-200LRs presumed superior economics theoretically make the flights breakeven or better?

  • Even so, is the cost of capital worth it?

  • Can the B787 / A350 overcome the enormous fixed costs as aforementioned?

  • On a rumour mill spinning point, the A345s are due for a normal 'renewal' in about 8 years. However, with the order for 9 extra A380s for delivery at the lastest end 2010, the A345s product will be overshadowed. What can SIA do without replacing the A345?


  • Many questions. I myself have no answers.

    [Paragraph 4 edited]

    [Edited 2006-07-23 23:52:32]
    Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
     
    PlaneHunter
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:48 am

    Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 16):
    One could argue that this is because of the small fleet size (of 5) which makes tech problems appear more visibly.

    Sounds logic.

    Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 16):
    While I accept such arguments, the evidence at the very least implies a possible problem with reliability or serviceability or some mystery issue with the A345.

    I wouldn't jump to fast conclusions without hearing reports from other A345 operators.


    PH
    Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
     
    OldAeroGuy
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:39 am

    Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 17):
    I wouldn't jump to fast conclusions without hearing reports from other A345 operators.

    Perhaps the EK decision to order 772LR's rather than a re-order of the A345HGW provides a bit of a clue.
    Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
     
    trex8
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:13 am

    Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 18):
    Perhaps the EK decision to order 772LR's rather than a re-order of the A345HGW provides a bit of a clue.

    except it seems EK uses the A345 for less than ULR flights!
     
    OldAeroGuy
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:20 am

    Quoting Trex8 (Reply 19):
    except it seems EK uses the A345 for less than ULR flights!

    And that in itself might be a comment on how well the A345 does operationally on ULR missions.
    Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
     
    zvezda
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:23 am

    Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 16):
    I am not a fan of the A340-500 (at Singapore Airlines Limited anyway).

    I've flown 3 times on SQ A340-500s. Each flight was a good experience. However, I am always a bit apprehensive about the risk of delays due to the generally lower dispatch reliability of quads. I'm slightly more relaxed when I'm about to fly on a twin.
     
    stormbringer
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:25 am

    I think that SQ's "executive economy" setup is hurting them as well. Much as a 6'3 guy loves legroom, they need to squeeze a few more people into the back.
    It's not road rage. It's COURTESY ENFORCEMENT.
     
    trex8
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:35 am

    Quoting Zvezda (Reply 21):
    I've flown 3 times on SQ A340-500s. Each flight was a good experience. However, I am always a bit apprehensive about the risk of delays due to the generally lower dispatch reliability of quads. I'm slightly more relaxed when I'm about to fly on a twin.

    IIRC the difference in dispatch reliability of the A345/6 vs 77W made public so far (FI article etc) is in the order of about 1%-2% max if even that! While this is important from an airlines economic viewpoint, I doubt many customers will travel enough to notice this difference!

    Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 20):
    Quoting Trex8 (Reply 19):except it seems EK uses the A345 for less than ULR flights!
    And that in itself might be a comment on how well the A345 does operationally on ULR missions.

    very true, its pretty clear at the longest ranges the LR is heaps better than the A345, but it may be at slightly lower ranges, the differences become more marginal which is why EK and TG may still find them quite useful.
     
    jacobin777
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:44 am

    Quoting Zvezda (Reply 21):
    I've flown 3 times on SQ A340-500s. Each flight was a good experience. However, I am always a bit apprehensive about the risk of delays due to the generally lower dispatch reliability of quads. I'm slightly more relaxed when I'm about to fly on a twin.



    Quoting Trex8 (Reply 24):
    IIRC the difference in dispatch reliability of the A345/6 vs 77W made public so far (FI article etc) is in the order of about 1%-2% max if even that! While this is important from an airlines economic viewpoint, I doubt many customers will travel enough to notice this difference

    I've flown on EK A345's a couple of times...been marred with delays..once had about a 7 hour delay out of DXB and it really ruined my connection schedule..I had to overnight it in NYC...I saw many people miss their connecting flight also...fortunately, EK gives business class pax a free hotel, but not so for cattle class...I got a decent hotel, but I didnt appreciate having to take all my personal items, check in at hotel at 10:00 p.m. then be out of the hotel by 5:30-6:00 a.m to catch the first plane out.....

    As far as the plane, I prefer A330's any day over the A345.....
    "Up the Irons!"
     
    zvezda
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:45 am

    Quoting Trex8 (Reply 24):
    IIRC the difference in dispatch reliability of the A345/6 vs 77W made public so far (FI article etc) is in the order of about 1%-2% max if even that! While this is important from an airlines economic viewpoint, I doubt many customers will travel enough to notice this difference!

    For me, that's several flights per year.
     
    jacobin777
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:52 am

    Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 16):

    Jet Fuel is trading in Singapore at around US$90 per barrel. At this price the A345s are not making a profit (source: Mr. Chew Choon Seng quoted in Aviation Daily, 12 June 2006). For reference, he was also quoted as saying that A345 ops have not been profitable since the end of 2004 (presumably calendar year).

    I checked the website, but I couldn't find the article..could you provide a link to the article..I would appreciate it.. Smile

    thanks...
    "Up the Irons!"
     
    PlaneHunter
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:21 pm

    Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 18):
    Perhaps the EK decision to order 772LR's rather than a re-order of the A345HGW provides a bit of a clue.

    Perhaps - the decision could be based on better range and payload figures, not necessarily on reliability issues.

    Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 20):
    And that in itself might be a comment on how well the A345 does operationally on ULR missions.

    It might. See above.


    PH
    Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
     
    hodja
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:36 pm

    I can't help but think that maybe ULR flights are a marginal line of business at best, irregardless of the equipment. (777-200LR, A340-500...)

    1. Inherent inefficiencies: You're hauling a major fuel supply half way around the world, only to spend it on your last leg of the route.

    2. A company fleet of ULR airliners is bound to be small (unless the airline route network consists solely of LHR-SYD), making daily ops much more exposed to technical issues.

    3. Crew utilisation must be downright dismal and inflexible, supporting 2 or 3 full sets of crew, overnighting etc.

    4. Not really designed for cargo. Cargo doesn't care if it has to make a few stopovers. Did Concorde ever haul cargo?

    5. Limited relevancy: How many scheduled routes on the global commercial airline network can really be classified as ULR? It must be something like 0.1% - is there really any point in designing a specific infrastructure for this rather small market?
     
    columba
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:59 pm

    I believe they will stay - it would not make much sense to replace them with 777LRs and later replace those with A350XWB-900Rs.
    Besides the A340-500 is, as well as the 777LR, a niche aircraft not many airlines have a need for such an ultra-longe range aircraft.
    Maybe if Airbus would offer the proposed A340 freighter and would use the -500 as basis there would be a market for used -500s as well.
    It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
     
    zvezda
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:23 pm

    Quoting Columba (Reply 30):
    Maybe if Airbus would offer the proposed A340 freighter and would use the -500 as basis there would be a market for used -500s as well.

    The operating cost would be too high because the OEW is high. The A330F and B777F would decimate any A340F in the market.
     
    Johnny
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:52 pm

    As it will be a niche product for all times, i see SQ ordering the A350-900R or B787-9RX and keep the A345 until that time.

    ULH flying is such a waste of fuel.
    You can fly a B744 with 400 Pax from SYD to LHR with one stop with the same fuel a B777LR uses with 300Pax on board non-stop.

    Absolutely senseless in todays world of rising fuelprices and less and less oil available!
     
    airways45
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:01 pm

    SIA confirmed this morning (Monday) that they will KEEP the five A340-500s, are not planning to add anymore, but are NOT now considering 777-200LRs.

    So, seems like they have answered the discussion topic!


    Airways45

    From Air Transport Intelligence (www.rati.com):

    SIA to keep A340-500s, no longer considering 777-200LR
    Nicholas Ionides, Singapore (24Jul06, 04:56 GMT, 559 words)


    Singapore Airlines (SIA) is no longer considering replacing its Airbus A340-500s with Boeing 777-200LRs and plans to keep the ultra-long-range Airbus aircraft for use on non-stop services to the USA.

    The Star Alliance carrier’s spokesman says SIA is “no longer considering the 777-200LR”, adding that it also will not be increasing the size of its five-strong fleet of A340-500s.

    SIA uses its A340-500s for non-stop services between Singapore and both Los Angeles and New York. Last year it began looking at whether to replace the five quad-jets with twin-engined 777-200LRs, in part because it is a major operator of several other variants of the 777. SIA currently has 58 777s in service and 19 more on order.

    A request for proposals (RFP) to Boeing asked for offers to replace the entire A340-500 fleet with 777-200LRs, while at the same time SIA was studying whether it was more cost effective to keep the A340-500s and increase the size of the fleet.

    The spokesman says the airline has decided now, however, that it is not worth replacing the aircraft or increasing the size of the fleet and the five examples will continue to operate on the two Singapore-USA routes.

    Meanwhile, the spokesman says SIA is reviewing offers for engines to power nine additional Airbus A380s it announced plans to order last week. He also says that “we’re talking to the various manufacturers about propositions” for engines to power its future fleets of Airbus A350-900XWBs and Boeing 787s.

    SIA surprised the industry late last week by announcing plans to order 20 A350-900XWBs and the nine additional A380-800s. The order announcement came just over a month after the airline ordered 20 787-9s, which many took as a sign that it was no longer considering ordering A350s. It also came in the wake of the fallout from new delays in early A380 deliveries.

    The carrier will be the first operator of the A380 and its original order was for 10 Rolls-Royce Trent 900-powered examples for delivery from this year. The spokesman says “it is certainly not a given” that it will stick with the Rolls-Royce offering for the additional A380s and that “there is an RFP active on engines” between Rolls-Royce and the Engine Alliance, which produces the GP7000.

    He is not able to say when an engine order may be placed for the additional A380s, which are due for delivery between late 2008 and 2010.

    The spokesman also says the airline is in no rush to place orders for engines for its A350s or 787s, although talks are taking place “with the various manufacturers”.

    Both General Electric and Rolls-Royce are to offer engines for the 787. Rolls-Royce has confirmed a deal with Airbus to offer an engine for the A350 while General Electric is still in talks with Airbus about a powerplant offering for the programme, which recently underwent a major revamp.

    SIA is the only airline that to date has committed to ordering both the A350 and the 787 but he spokesman says it sees room in its fleet for both types, adding that they can also be used to replace some of its oldest 777-200s.

    Ahead of the delivery of the A350s SIA will be leasing 19 new A330-300s from Airbus as “interim lift” and the spokesman says they will for the most part be on lease terms of 5-6 years.


    Source: Air Transport Intelligence news
     
    SInGAPORE_AIR
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:20 pm

    WOW! I've got to say I love ATI but can never get access due to it being so expensive.

    Well, quite a shocker. I wonder if it was the wonderful Stephen Forshaw, Vice President Public Affairs being quoted.

    This is interesting.

    So this means that SIA can either replace the A340-500s with B787-9s or A350-900Rs?

    Again, interesting...
    Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
     
    ebj1248650
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:46 pm

    Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 13):
    Quoting Zvezda (Reply 1):
    SQ reports that at current oil prices, they are losing money operating their A340s.

    Do they still operate some of the older A340-300 series airplanes? I can't quite figure out how operating the A340-500 can be so expensive when it's still relatively new and has good operating economics.
    Dare to dream; dream big!
     
    PolymerPlane
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:37 pm

    Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 34):
    Do they still operate some of the older A340-300 series airplanes? I can't quite figure out how operating the A340-500 can be so expensive when it's still relatively new and has good operating economics.

    Because they can only put 181 seats in two class config on a plane that is capable of 313 in three class config. It's not about the operating cost, but more to the revenue potential.

    Cheers,
    PP
    One day there will be 100% polymer plane
     
    GneissGuy
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:04 am

    SQ has announced they are not replacing the A345s. They will continue using it on non-stop SIN - USA routes
     
    zvezda
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:37 am

    Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 33):
    So this means that SIA can either replace the A340-500s with B787-9s or A350-900Rs?

    The B787-9 would be fine for SIN-LAX, but probably not for SIN-EWR. It's early to say regarding the A350-900R.

    Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 34):
    Do they still operate some of the older A340-300 series airplanes?

    No, SQ sold them to Boeing. SQ now operate 5 A340-500s to LAX, EWR, and CGK.
     
    dennys
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:16 am

    THANKS GOD THEY KEEP THEIR BEUATYFULL A345 !!!!

    denn
     
    TinkerBelle
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    RE: Do You Think SQ Will Dump Its 345s?

    Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:26 am

    Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 15):
    There was a thread about 1 month ago discussing about this matter. SQ's CEO said that they are not making money on the A345 operations, and if SQ were to make the decision today, they would not have started the operation. You can use the search engine or google to find the article. It was a direct quote, so, it must be credible.

    LOL... You know what's funny, the gentleman below ( Singapore_air) used the SAME words on that thread as the ones he has used below. I bet he went back to the thread and copied the whole thing.  biggrin 

    Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 16):
    I am not a fan of the A340-500 (at Singapore Airlines Limited anyway).
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    Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

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    Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

    Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

    Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

    Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos