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bennett123
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:29 pm

Jetjack74

From TMG's website, it seems that the DC10-40 is gone now.
 
RIHNOSAUR
Posts: 336
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood,

Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:54 pm

hi,

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 6):
Well think of it this way - how many of us here regularly drive 16 yr old cars? I know, apples & oranges comparison, but still, you could rip the thing down to the frame and rebuild it, but it's uneconomical. So you go buy a new one and make the payment on it,

just a friendly response to your comment Acidradio, you probably are right on this on many instances ....
yet , I will say that you have to be careful in generalizing. I myself drive a 1990 honda accord, and it still running like a beauty. And there is no way that (even If I were to by a the cheapest new car on the market) payments on a new car could be cheaper than the oil changes, brake maintenance etc and gas I spend on my 16 year old car (when averaged per month)

So I understand aircraft and cars are diff animals..but old (if built to last) does not equate to more expensive....and it seems airbus makes pretty darn good machines..

any how....just my interpretation.

 Big grin
particles and waves are the same thing, but who knows what that thing is...
 
nitrohelper
Posts: 413
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:38 pm

Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 51):
a 1990 Honda accord,

You could say it's a " DC-9" kind of car!  biggrin 
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:19 pm

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 48):
Numerous A300 and A310 operators would certainly disagree.

 checkmark 

Lots of 70's-vintage A300 and A310s are in safe, reliable use all over the world.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
burnsie28
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting Dl_mech (Reply 49):
Contrary to A.net belief, new liveries and D-checks do not go hand in hand.

And According to NW on an employee newsletter when the new livery was announced was that planes would only get repainted during their major maint. IE D checks.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:05 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 48):
PlaneHunter

Were you referring to freighters that get only two cycles a day?
That's a different ballgame than the narrow body airbuses that do four, five or more cycles per day.

safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
KELPkid
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 51):
. I myself drive a 1990 honda accord, and it still running like a beauty. And there is no way that (even If I were to by a the cheapest new car on the market) payments on a new car could be cheaper than the oil changes, brake maintenance etc and gas I spend on my 16 year old car (when averaged per month)

Wait 'til the engine loses the front seal and takes out the timing belt in the process Big grin (like my wife's '92 accord wagon did recently...) $1000 repairs make saving up for a down payment on a new vehicle a very tempting thought...not to mention the exhaust system problems we've had with her car.
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood,

Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:55 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 55):
Were you referring to freighters that get only two cycles a day?

Many of the old A300 and A310 had already served on medium and short haul routes for a long time prior to freighter conversion.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 55):
That's a different ballgame than the narrow body airbuses that do four, five or more cycles per day.

The oldest A320-100s are close to their 19th year in service on short haul routes.

And don't forget the upcoming freighter conversion program:

http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre.../06_05_16_mig_irkut_agreement.html


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
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RayChuang
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:00 am

Those NW A320's are being scrapped probably because their airframe life cycles has reached the end of their operational lives. We're talking some of the oldest A320's built.

People forget when NW rebuilt their D9 fleet in the middle 1990's they essentially gave them D-check overhauls that extended their structural lives at least 10-15 years. As such, the D9 fleet probably still has some life left and those planes will be phased out as the structural life of the rebuilt D9's comes to an end.
 
LX23
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:05 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 5):
they were designed for one carrier to use them for on average 15 years before they're scrapped



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 5):
aircraft for quick, cheap operations which is why more LCC's go for them(mostly overseas) and 737 loses out in the LCC camp



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 44):
List price they maybe comparable, but actual slae price to individual carriers, Airbus undercuts Boeing by a mile

Wow... Funny to see how some people will pull out broad, sweeping statements without any relation to facts in order to grasp at any straw that they can bash Airbus with. Truth be told, like all die-hard A or B bashers, this Airbus bashfest has 1% fact, 99% self-induced fiction  Smile


For example, I love the "Airbus is cheap" and "LCC's overseas go for Airbus" bit. WN, for example, is an All-Boeing operation. Ryanair, one of the largest LCC's in the world (one of the LCC's that is "overseas") is also a sizeable all Boeing operator. Easyjet has a mixed 73G and A319 fleet. And not-so-overseas Jetblue operates a mix of A32X and E-Jets.

Here's a few numbers to debunk the Airbus-cheap-LCC myth:
737NG LCC operators (as per Boeing's website these are the orders; and from carriers that I could work out as LCC...a few might've slipped through):
Air Berlin (26); Air India Express (18); Air Tran Airways (78); Alaska Airlines (73); dba (10); Easyjet (32); Germania (12); Gol Airlines (67); Hapag-Lloyd Flug (37); Ryanair (249); SkyEurope (9); Southwest Airlines (370); SpiceJet (10); Transavia Airlines (19) Virgin Blue Airlines (32); WestJet (60)
for a grand total of 1102 737NG models slated to serve with LCC's around the world. I wouldn't say that's a small amount, especially considering that the (by far) largest A32X LCC operators combined (Jetblue and Easyjet) come up with less than 400 aircraft ordered.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 44):
Both, but more so the A320 customers since the A320 is a 20 year-old design...The NG737's economics will continue to be competitive...

So the "more expensive" Boeing will continue to be far more competitive than the "cheap, LCC-loved" A32X family. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, LCC's generally tend to look for airplanes which are efficient and will make them money. If, in your mind, the LCC's love the A320's so much... and LCC's tend to look for products that squeeze every possible dime out of their operations... how is it that the 737NG's will remain far more competitive?
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 58):
Those NW A320's are being scrapped probably because their airframe life cycles has reached the end of their operational lives. We're talking some of the oldest A320's built.

Numerous of AF's A320-100s (6 frames on domestic short haul use only) have probably accumulated much more cyles than NW's oldest A320-200s (medium & short haul) and don't seem to end up at the scrapyard soon. I guess it's the strong demand for spares which explains the scrapping.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
isitsafenow
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting LX23 (Reply 59):
LX23

Thats a nice post with nice info, but the bottom line is that A320's are getting beer canned and the NGs aren't.

I respect your knowledge and statements but JETJACK74 "ain't no dummy".

I am not looking at this thread as A vs B but only to gather knowledge why 737-200 built in the early 80s are still flying and DC 9 built in the late 60s and rebuilt in the mid nineties are still flying and "young" birds like the A320 are parted out and scrapped. Like to many other here at A net, it seems odd.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
bennett123
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:54 am


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These aircraft were built at the same time.
 
EI321
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:55 am

Quoting IslandHopperCO (Thread starter):
I'm sure the reason for this is that NWA got out of the leases on these aircraft through bankruptcy, and their actual owners found it more economical to scrap them. It still seems very strange to see a 16 year old NWA plane scrapped while DC9s much more than TWICE their age are still flying with the same airline!

If the airline owns the aircraft, like NW owns the DC9s & 10s, and has no payments to make on them, then they will work out more affordable than leasing or paying for a new jet, even if maintance and fuel is more expensive. Suppose the lease on new A320s is 5m per annum, but the extra fuel and maintance for the DC9s is probable less than that.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:40 pm

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 61):
I am not looking at this thread as A vs B but only to gather knowledge why 737-200 built in the early 80s are still flying and DC 9 built in the late 60s and rebuilt in the mid nineties are still flying and "young" birds like the A320 are parted out and scrapped. Like to many other here at A net, it seems odd.

Do you know how many 737-200's & DC-9's have been parted out to support those aircraft types that are still in service - a lot. Again, there is a huge market for spare parts. And the parts of these A320's were worth more than the potential second-hand lease rates, if it was even possible to place these aircraft elsewhere.
 
LX23
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:23 pm

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 61):
I am not looking at this thread as A vs B but only to gather knowledge why 737-200 built in the early 80s are still flying and DC 9 built in the late 60s and rebuilt in the mid nineties are still flying and "young" birds like the A320 are parted out and scrapped. Like to many other here at A net, it seems odd.



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 62):
These aircraft were built at the same time

I'd like to thank Bennett, because his post allows me to make this one wonderful statement - all credit for it goes to him: A picture is worth a thousand words  Smile

PSUDTWSCE also makes a great point  Smile

Also, bear in mind that not a single NG flew before the second half of 1997 (a full 10 years after the A320s first flight)...so if we saw one being parted out already, after just 8-9 years of service, that would be very worrying indeed  Wink
 
F14ATomcat
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:18 pm

One word.... Corrosion and the fear thereof.
 
IslandHopperCO
Topic Author
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood,

Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:40 am

Bennett123 makes a good point...Boeings and MDD planes seem to get axed at a young age just as much as the Airbi. It's a purely financial decision. 1998-built MD90s were recently broken up too with only two years worth of use!


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See this thread for more details:

https://www.airliners.net/discussions...ion/read.main/2692952/6/#ID2692952
 
isitsafenow
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood,

Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:35 am

Note the Southwest 737, or whats left of it, in the above photo.
Here we go...
That plane was built in June of 1980 for LADECO..went to HP in April of
1986. It went into storage at Marana from 9-92 to 4-93 were it went to
Southwest. It went back to Marana April of 2003 and chopped in 2005.
I tracked it by the N number, N129SW.

Now, lets look at a NW A320 to be scrapped.
N302US...built May of 89 and to be scrapped August or Sept of 2006.
Do the math. Which plane was in service the longest and had the most cycles?
The argument the Boeings "are being scrapped too" does not fit here.
The Boeings CLEARLY outlast the NW airbuses in cycles, pax flown and
revenue generated. The photo and the history of the planes show that.
ALSO, if HP and WN had this plane, you know it didn't sit on the ground
very much.


Your witness, counselor
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
AMSSFO
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:13 pm

Note the US B737, or whats left of it, in the last of the photos Bennett123 showed above.
Here we go...
That plane was built in October of 1988 for Piedmont AL. which merged with US Air in August of 1989. It went into storage at MHV from 9-02 to 3-03 were it went to IGM, then to GWO 7-03 and chopped in 2004.
I tracked it by the N number, N412US.

Now, lets look at a NW A320 to be scrapped.
N302US...built May of 89 and to be scrapped August or Sept of 2006.
Do the math. Which plane was in service the longest and had the most cycles?
The argument the Boeings "are being scrapped too" does fit here.
The Airbus CLEARLY outlast the US B737 in cycles, pax flown and
revenue generated. The photo and the history of the planes show that.

You get my point, Isitsafenow?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:29 pm

Guys, this arguement makes no sense, as you could go back on forth by citing cases for specific aircraft. There is no basis for this A vs B claim.

It just comes down to a market for parts, it is not based upon this aircraft being at the end of its useful life - which it clearly is not.
 
cfalk
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:46 pm

Quoting IslandHopperCO (Thread starter):
It still seems very strange to see a 16 year old NWA plane scrapped while DC9s much more than TWICE their age are still flying with the same airline!

(A vs. B bash hat on)

Just goes to show that an old DC-9 was far better built than a new(er) Airbus.

(ducking for cover)
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 69):
You get my point, Isitsafenow?

I was using the SW bird...you the USAirways bird...
we can do this all day and night long...
you win
I win
you win
I win
etc
etc
game over..  bigthumbsup 

outcome.....tie
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
deltadc9
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 71):
Just goes to show that an old DC-9 was far better built than a new(er) Airbus.

Yes, but they had to be due to the location of the engines, and the different design philosophy. I think history has shown tha the MD designs are by far the most durable, over Boeing, Lockheed, BAE, and Airbus.

Today flying DC-8s outnumber 707s by a large margin, DC-10s and MD-11s press on, and the DC-9 just wont go away.

It is truly impressive.

Quoting LX23 (Reply 59):

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 44):
Both, but more so the A320 customers since the A320 is a 20 year-old design...The NG737's economics will continue to be competitive...

So the "more expensive" Boeing will continue to be far more competitive than the "cheap, LCC-loved" A32X family. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, LCC's generally tend to look for airplanes which are efficient and will make them money. If, in your mind, the LCC's love the A320's so much... and LCC's tend to look for products that squeeze every possible dime out of their operations... how is it that the 737NG's will remain far more competitive?

You added "far more" to shoot him down? He never said that! The planes are pretty much even on all counts, so he is correct.

It is very telling that you felt the need to add words to his quote to attempt to prove him wrong.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood,

Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:39 pm

Quoting F14ATomcat (Reply 66):
One word.... Corrosion and the fear thereof.

Corrosion of the A320s? Have you read the whole thread yet?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 71):
Just goes to show that an old DC-9 was far better built than a new(er) Airbus.

You haven't read the thread, right?


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
AMSSFO
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 72):

outcome.....tie

Great, you got my point.
discussion closed
 
N801NW
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:19 pm

Quoting Breiz (Reply 34):
Do you have the name of the lessee/bank/financial institution which is supposed to own them?

Accroding to Bankruptcy Court documents, the lessor on record was a company called Eaganbail, G.I.E. based in France.
 
nitrohelper
Posts: 413
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:35 pm

Quoting N801NW (Reply 76):
called Eaganbail, G.I.E. based in France.

France! ! ! More "free or low profit" planes from Airbus? Must have been used to switch NWA over to the Euroguys. yes 
 
na
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:24 pm

Does anybody know how many NWA A320s were delivered in the old 70s livery (only that the natural silver parts on Boeing were dull grey on the A320)? I´ve only seen N301US in this scheme (there is one photo from 1989).
 
burnsie28
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:00 am

N302US is not a leased plane, so I don't think its the one.

Also, before the new lease agreements, NW was paying $600,000 a month to lease the OLDEST A320's, that's outrages, at $7,200,000 a year, when they bought the plane for $35 million. Let's do the math, that isn't economical.
 
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breiz
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:12 am

Quoting N801NW (Reply 76):
Quoting Breiz (Reply 34):
Do you have the name of the lessee/bank/financial institution which is supposed to own them?

Accroding to Bankruptcy Court documents, the lessor on record was a company called Eaganbail, G.I.E. based in France.

Thanks a lot, N801NW, appreciated.
 
nitrohelper
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood,

Sat Jul 29, 2006 8:54 am

Are there DC-9s getting scrapped for parts, or are they just "junk" because of no spare parts demand ? I saw pictures of about 40 planes (NWA-9s) sitting on the "sand",any NWA folks here know their status ,for sale or waiting to die ? R.I P. Herman
 
IslandHopperCO
Topic Author
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:28 am

NW is gradually retiring the DC9s as they come up for major checks. The engines and some other components still have some value on the used market, but for the most part they are junk as demand for parts is decreasing. They are most likely going to buy RJs to replace them.
 
3201
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood,

Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting NA (Reply 78):
Does anybody know how many NWA A320s were delivered in the old 70s livery (only that the natural silver parts on Boeing were dull grey on the A320)? I´ve only seen N301US in this scheme (there is one photo from 1989).

I've been told that even N301US didn't ever operate a revenue flight in that scheme, they repainted it to the "bowling shoe" scheme after delivery but before service entry. I don't have any external source for this, just comments on a.net. For example, Reply 6 in this thread.

(Edit: add reference to other thread)

[Edited 2006-08-02 20:40:43]
7 hours aint long-haul
 
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breiz
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:06 am

Quoting 3201 (Reply 83):
I´ve only seen N301US in this scheme (there is one photo from 1989).

I've been told that even N301US didn't ever operate a revenue flight in that scheme

You two most probably mean N401UA?
 
3201
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting Breiz (Reply 84):
You two most probably mean N401UA?

I meant N301US:

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Not sure why you think we might mean N401UA, what is the relevance?
7 hours aint long-haul
 
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breiz
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting 3201 (Reply 85):
Not sure why you think we might mean N401UA, what is the relevance?

Oups! I'm guilty of mixing Northwest and United !! Apologies.
Back to your question:
I have a slide of N303US in old white stripe cs at TLS prior to delivery.
The next one I have, N305US was already in new cs at TLS.
From my records, N301US was repainted in June 89, shortly after delivery on June 6th, 89.
That's about it.

[Edited 2006-08-02 22:25:49]
 
3201
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:16 am

Quoting Breiz (Reply 86):
I have a slide of N303US in old white stripe cs at TLS prior to delivery.

It was NA's question, but interesting to me too, thanks for the info! So we know 3 or 4 were painted in the old colors.
7 hours aint long-haul
 
lijnden
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:50 am

So we can see the first NWA A330's retire in about 10-12 years? (probably before the DC-9...). Would scrapping some A330's or B777 now be good business sense or do these birds still have warranty on them?
Be kind to animals! Next trip: ORF-ATL-HND-ATL-ORF
 
prebennorholm
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting Brons2 (Reply 26):
2) The engines were CFM56-3 and not the later -5 model.

Not 100% accurate. The engines were CFM56-5A instead of the later -5B model.

The -5A is rather similar to the CFM56-3 on the 737-300/-400/-500 except for the 8 inches larger fan.

Same way the -5B on the 320 from around 1991 and forward is a technically much refined and extensively modified engine which is similar to the CFM56-7 on the 737NG. Again the major difference being the smaller fan on the -7 on the Boeing.

These old 320s will have a significant fuel burn and range disadvantage compared to newer birds.

Anyway the planes may represent a not insignificant parts value. Even the engines might be asked for since they are almost identical to the CFM56-2 on the DC-8-7x. The fans are 100% identical, and with all those DC-8-7x still flying they must smallow a bird every now and then. Which may be a small problem with an engine which went out of production 15 years ago.

The CFM56-5A engine was always considered a "stop gap" engine awaiting the delayed development of the much improved -5B. Only a couple of hundred 320s were made with the -5A engine which is an absolutely minimum change of the CFM56-2.

Guesswork: Maybe GE wanted to be sure that the 320 became a success before they threw a lot of money into development of the -5B ?
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Dtw757
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:30 am

This is really sad that an airplane not even 20 years old is being scrapped out. All four have been de-registered with the FAA. Any news if any of the other older ones will soon be scrapped as well like N301US, N303US, N304US or N305US?


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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:50 am

BA became a launch customer for the 320 when they took over BCal on 14 April 1988, just 14 days after BCal had taken delivery of the second 320 to be put into commercial operation, G-BUSB (c/n 006).

Next year BA will start to retire their small fleet of 320 111s. They will be replaced by new 320 232s and 321 231s. The first aircraft to leave the fleet will be G-BUSD (c/n 011). It is destined for A J Walter Aviation which strongly suggests it will be parted out for spares.

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