for a short time after PAN AM's breakdown in the late 80'ies, Delta overtook not only PAN AM's transatlantic London - bound routes, but also some of PAN AM's A310 (part of the deal). DL wasn 't pleased to operate A310's, as Airbus in general until today, so the 310 had to leave the fleet very soon. Where did they go ???

Delta also ordered new A310s on their own.

The A310 did not fill the capacity needs of their expanding transatlantic network.

N

WRONG!

United took over Pan Am`s London/Heathrow rights! The only flight which Delta took over was Detroit - London/Gatwick!

Delta flew the A-310`s till 1995/96 and they flew all over Europe mostly from New York/JFK to Berlin/Hamburg/Bruxxles/Copenhagen and Frankfurt
and beyond Frankfurt to Destinations like Budapest, Athens, Istanbul

Delta had several 727 and 310 based in Frankurt between 1991-1995 !

Delta took over Pan Am's Frankfurt operations... that hub operated for quite some time.

N

They had 30 different

16 went to Federal Express: 13 are still active, 4 are stored

1 went to TAROM and was written off (crashed 31.03.95 near Bucharest 60(60) after take-off in snowstorm, pilot might have had heart-attack)

1 went to Sibir, and crashed lately (crashed @ IKT 09.07.06 after overshooting runway at about 200km/h and hitting airport building)

2 went to Air Plus Comet and are still active

1 still active with Biman Bangladesh

6 are still active with PIA

1 active with Aerolinas Argentinas

1 active with CSA

That makes 4 stored, 2 written off and 24 still active!


View Large View Medium

Photo © JKSC


Cheers,
Philippe

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 2): The only flight which Delta took over was Detroit - London/Gatwick!

DL also took MIA-LGW. I believe CLE-LGW as well.

I am not sure of the number, but one or two went to JM. At one time JM operated 4 (maybe more) A310s. Not sure how many came from DL, but JM no longer flies them.

They flew runs to AMS too with the A310. I managed to get one on a 35mm camera a long time ago  But I really liked the DL colours on the A310

Quoting Jm017 (Reply 6): I am not sure of the number, but one or two went to JM

All the 310 that JM flew were from Delta (6 in all).

Quoting Jm017 (Reply 6): I am not sure of the number, but one or two went to JM. At one time JM operated 4 (maybe more) A310s. Not sure how many came from DL, but JM no longer flies them

Yeap, JM operated some of Delta's ex-A310's..these ones were delivered new from Airbus to Delta I believe.

4 went to Air Jamaica:
N838AB => 6Y-JAB
N841AB => 6Y-JAE
N839AD => 6Y-JAC
N840AB => 6Y-JAD

When DL took over PA's transatlantic operarations......they also acquired 21 A310s that were operated by Pan Am; 7 A310-200s and 14 A310-300s were part of the deal. DL operated the A310s on the transatlantic services out of JFK and also flew a handful of routes from ATL and CVG....the A310s also showed up on some JFK-LAX/SFO transcons. The A310-200s were problematic, they were short on range and made transatlantic operations difficult; the A312s were used on shorter transatlantic routes such as JFK-BRU and JFK-AMS and there were issues even on these routes and frequently loads had to be restriced on the westbound journeys. (I flew on PA/DL A312s between BRU and JFK several times...rarely on the BRU-JFK segment could the flight go out with a fully loaded coach cabin.) Nothing wrong with the airplane, it simply was not designed for such long segments and using any airplane at its absolute limit is problematic.

DL then went on to order/lease additional A310-300s from Airbus....these A313s were among the last A310s to be built and delivered; the airplanes were leased from Airbus and the intent was to replace the A312s with new, more capable A313s. Shortly after the new A313s were delivered, DL was experiencing continued losses on its transatlantic operations (especially the JFK-Europe flights) and made severe cutbacks in services....in conjuction with the cutbacks, DL decided to eliminate the A310 from its fleet and go with the 763ER as its primary trans-atlantic airliner. Being that the A310 fleet was leased, all of the airplanes made their way back to Airbus and were placed with new operators as described in the posts above.

DL seemed to like the A310, but they liked the 763ER better.....and being that the 763ER fleet was larger, that became DL's transatlantic airplane. Also note that the 763ER is more versatile, carries more passengers, and has more range than even the most capable A313, so it was probably the right decision.

Note that PanAm also operated a fleet of A300B4s (mainly on domestic and caribbean/latin american services).....DL did not take those airplanes as part of the Pan Am deal.

Delta A310s also operated JFK-PDX flights...as I was fortunate to fly that route once on a DL A310. My only A310 flight.

DELTAMIA: DL took over MIA - LGW from PA, you mean just the traffic rights, yeah??? Not the A310 on this leg  

Quoting Hush-Kit (Reply 12): DELTAMIA: DL took over MIA - LGW from PA, you mean just the traffic rights, yeah??? Not the A310 on this leg

I might be on crack, but I thought this route went to Eastern which was, in turn picked up by AA when they acquired EA's MIA international operations. Since AA was a Bermuda 2 carrier by then (and MIA a Bernuda 2 gateway), they were able to switch the authority to Heathrow.

Pan Am's Miami-London authority was to Heathrow and the senior USA holder, having purchased it when they acquired National Airlines. At that time, 1979, there was strong opposition to Pan Am from Eastern, who wanted the National authority. Pan Am, which had been bid up to a problematic purchase price for National by Frank Lorenzo and Texas International, argued that their entire transaction was compromised without the Miami-London authority. The Carter administration approved the transfer to Pan Am. The rest is history.

Eastern was given authority to fly the parallel route to London Gatwick. You may recall that British Airways, like Pan Am, held and still holds Miami-Heathrow. Several generations of Miami-Gatwick UK charter and scheduled competitors came and went before Virgin came along and was able to move the UK-based Miami-Gatwick service to Heathrow, where they had slots.

Here's a trivia factoid for you. Before BOAC, can anyone recall which UK-licensed carrier flew Miami-Nassau-Bermuda-London? British Eagle.

Back to point, as I mentioned in another thread, one might fault United for not demanding Miami-London when they bought the US-Heathrow authorities and slots, then, later, backing out of negotiations with Delta in the summer of 1991 regarding Delta's acquisition of the remainder of the Atlantic Division, Kennedy, Frankfurt and route authorities (Europe, Middle East, Africa) less Heathrow, which United had already grabbed; or, once Delta pulled the plug in December, 1991, fighting for Miami-Heathrow.

When United tool Heathrow, Pan Am clung to Miami and Detroit, transferring them to Gatwick. At this same time, as has been stated, Eastern sold their Panagra-Braniff South American services to American and, led by their far-sighted machinists union and Charlie Bryan, Eastern blew up. By then, American had entered Heathrow alongside United by purchasing TWA's authority. Hence, shiny silverbirds were probably inevitably bound for Miami-Heathrow.

Not being an attorney and only having a sporting interest in route negotiations or rules, as I understand it, the governing rules appear only to allow one USA competitor on Miami-Heathrow and the second is stuck with Gatwick, which is why United stayed out, only flying their 747s for a brief time on an emergency basis after Pan Am was euthanized. Wny, then, a lopsided deal where two UK carriers can fly the route? I've never figured this out, as many times as I've looked out over the Atlantic eastbound from Miami.

Back to the Pan Am and Delta A-310s, from our perspective now, this seems like a surreal conversation, given the subsequent mass of Delta 767 metal crossing the pond. However, at the time, Tom Plaskett was serious about downsizing and populating non-London services with the busses, in an attempt to improve cost and revenue performance and serve more stations nonstop before longer-range and better-payload Airbus equipment was available or the company could be stabilized enough by accelerating transfer of mainline narrow-bodies into Miami. Sadly,Lockerbie, the weight of history and American pouncing on the Eastern carcass in Miami all made it a mute point.

It was interesting once to find myself on a Delta A-310 from New York to San Francisco, staffed with a former Pan Am flight deck and cabin crew. We had a great conversation up front and the folks seemed pleased to be with Delta for the most part. It was strange to look at the Airbus cockpit layout and avionics as compared to a Boeing 727 layout. The Airbus-type feel became more familiar later, albeit in tan, with the 767 and 757 and now 777 layout.

Fed Ex must get something out of the birds and I keep seeing them every morning in several markets on their 6:00 a.m. or so arrivals.

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 2): Delta had several 727 and 310 based in Frankurt between 1991-1995 !

You can also add a few B767-200 to that mix.

Quoting Hush-Kit (Thread starter): Where did they go ???

Hush-Kit,

Take a look at Reply #14 in this thread https://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/1606254/

Granted, there have probably been further operator changes since I posted this back in June 2004, but it shows where Delta's A310's went after they left the fleet.


Cheers,
Titch

Quoting PipoA380 (Reply 4): 13 are still active

I presume you are talking about active with other airlines?
Delta currently operates 0 airbuses
Alex

Hi!

DL also operated their A310's to LIS for a brief period, I think they went to replace PA. I have at least one picture taken at LIS of one of their A310's!
regards

AAL0616,
Great post and very factual.

Thanks,
Ed

Quoting CV990 (Reply 18): DL also operated their A310's to LIS for a brief period, I think they went to replace PA.

Yes, that's right. My only flight on a DL A310 was JFK-LIS (DL96) in December 1994. It was operated by N835AB, one of the A310-324s built for DL, which was quite new at the time. Nice flight, as I recall.

Going just a bit off-topic, I wonder if we might see DL return to LIS in the near future, especially if DL starts flying 757s from JFK across the Atlantic...

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 2): The only flight which Delta took over was Detroit - London/Gatwick!

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 5): I believe CLE-LGW as well.

Actually it was CLE-DTW-LGW.

The PA aircraft were crap. Worn interiors, no real galley to serve J class (all food cooked in F class, back of the planes smelled like blue juice. The new ones DL bought were great! Proper galleys, comfortable plane for passengers, good overhead space. I was sorry to see those planes leave.

Hi!

DL back to LIS? That would be excelent but I doubt it, now we have CO flying to EWR, US to PHL and TP also to EWR from LIS and OPO...looks to me that the market is quite saturated!
Regards

Quoting Clipper002 (Reply 19): AAL0616, Great post and very factual

Yes a great post with some historical facts!

-Carl

Quoting CV990 (Reply 22): DL back to LIS? That would be excelent but I doubt it, now we have CO flying to EWR, US to PHL and TP also to EWR from LIS and OPO...looks to me that the market is quite saturated!

True. However, word is that DL will continue to build its JFK gateway, and LIS seems to be one of the larger markets in Europe that DL does not serve at the moment.

Back to the original topic (sort of), I seem to recall that my JFK-LIS A310 flight in December 1994 continued on to NCE. Can anyone confirm?

Quoting AAL0616 (Reply 14): Not being an attorney and only having a sporting interest in route negotiations or rules, as I understand it, the governing rules appear only to allow one USA competitor on Miami-Heathrow and the second is stuck with Gatwick, which is why United stayed out, only flying their 747s for a brief time on an emergency basis after Pan Am was euthanized. Wny, then, a lopsided deal where two UK carriers can fly the route? I've never figured this out, as many times as I've looked out over the Atlantic eastbound from Miami.

Stephen Wolf wanted Miami-Heathrow badly but because as you stated AA was already into LHR with the old Air Florida, and then EA route authority (even though those two airlines had been forced to serve gatwick) UA couldn't serve LHR from Miami and thus had no interest in Gatwick.

Quoting PipoA380 (Reply 4): They had 30 different

wow had no idea DL operated so many A310s at once

Quoting Hush-Kit (Reply 12): DELTAMIA: DL took over MIA - LGW from PA, you mean just the traffic rights, yeah??? Not the A310 on this leg

I don't know which routes it was on but the only DL A310 I've ever seen I saw it in Miami, in 1993 I think.

The strange thing is I never saw it in Orlando, where DL used to fly every single type (except for the 737-300s). Guess none of these A310 routes were flown out of MCO.

Some of the Atlantic authority Delta acquired, flew but withdrew, including Gatwick but also San Francisco-Frankfurt and Dulles-Frankfurt were flown with L10s and former Pan Am L15s (that Delta picked up from United who had bought them with the Pan Am Pacific Division ... how is that for irony?).

You'd not have seen the Delta A-310s much outside Kennedy feeder routes such as Los Angeles, San Francisco, et. al., so it is not surprising they weren't seen much at Orlando

Regarding the earlier questions about the A-310 variants and range, the original Pan Am aircraft carried Deutsche names and flew IGS service to Berlin so it was interesting to see these first several aircraft transfer to this side of the pond and, then, Pan Am ordering and flying the second generation A312 equipment which, although perfectly fine in and of themselves, were stretched much beyond the northwest Europe gateways and Lisbon. You could easily tell the difference because the orignal 100s did not have the small winglets.

It was difficult to get used to seeing the Airbus birds in Delta colors or the Worldport with the Delta logo, whereas now it is second nature to see the Deltaflot 767s all lined up ahead of you in your silverbird, on their way to all the European stations in twilight at Kennedy while you get ready to get in between, get above and follow them east, or head southwest to Florida and the hub in Miami that might have been for either Delta or Eastern. Somehow I still think that having been there for years anyway, Delta should have been the likely successor to Eastern and Pan Am-National in South Florida. They were content, I suppose, with their Northeast-acquired grip on Ft. Lauderdale.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 21): The PA aircraft were crap. Worn interiors

I think that their aircraft were flying quit a lot, the first A310-200 was delivered in May 1985 and the first A310-300 was delivered in June 1987. PA wasn't in good financial shape despite their will to say "We're flying better than ever!", and it became even worse following the 21/12/1988 explosion.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 26): wow had no idea DL operated so many A310s at once

DL got seven A310-200 & fourteen A310-300 from PA, plus the nine they ordered from Airbus.

Quoting Kkfla737 (Reply 25): Stephen Wolf wanted Miami-Heathrow badly but because as you stated AA was already into LHR with the old Air Florida, and then EA route authority (even though those two airlines had been forced to serve gatwick) UA couldn't serve LHR from Miami and thus had no interest in Gatwick.

What might have become of UA's MIA opps if they had been able to serve MIA-LHR?

Would it have been possible for UA to maintain its MIA presence and compete head to head with AA rather than totally abandoning MIA as they have?

Quoting CV990 (Reply 22): DL back to LIS? That would be excelent but I doubt it, now we have CO flying to EWR, US to PHL and TP also to EWR from LIS and OPO...looks to me that the market is quite saturated!

TP's flights to EWR, with 7 weekly year round and 10 weekly during summer and peak periods, presented one of the highest loads among its routes during 2005 with an average load factor of 84.7%. Even after reducing capacity in 1.6% from 2004 demand increased by 4.9% which seems to indicate that the market is not saturated, as fares aren't coming down either.

Also from what I've heard both CO and US are doing pretty well out of LIS.

I can see demand for a DL service from JFK to LIS with a 757 but not daily during winter time.

Quoting AAL0616 (Reply 27): Some of the Atlantic authority Delta acquired, flew but withdrew, including Gatwick but also San Francisco-Frankfurt and Dulles-Frankfurt were flown with L10s and former Pan Am L15s (that Delta picked up from United who had bought them with the Pan Am Pacific Division ... how is that for irony?).

The IAD-FRA at least was also operated with the 763ER as was I believe LAX-FRA (when it existed).