Well I just got busted at one of the nation's top 20 airports.

Outside the fence, snapping a few photos.

The undercover airport cops have a message for me and for you. Stay away from airports until the alert level goes down. Pointing large cameras at planes near the airport fence is just not going to be tolerated anymore. You will be lucky to avoid interrogation.

Overall the cops were nice but incredibly firm. Next time I'd be in jail in 2 seconds.

I learned my lesson and thought you'd like to hear it. Never mind which airport; they are all under the exact same security strategy.

A couple of weeks ago I was at the In&Out Burger at LAX, and I noticed several people with cameras...I fully expected police to come over and stop us, but several drove by, and none said anything.

I guess that's changed. Pretty soon TSA will be telling everyone not to look up in the sky.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Thread starter): Outside the fence, snapping a few photos.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Thread starter): Pointing large cameras at planes near the airport fence is just not going to be tolerated anymore.

Doesn't this usually happen in predictable cycles that follow the announcement of another security threat to aviation?

Here's where I have a problem: This poster was 'outside the fence' which I assume means off airport property and simply taking photographs. I can see and agree with the enforcement if the airport authority chooses not to allow spotters on its property - that's their right. But under which laws or regulations can the police deter or jail a person for legal activity on public land?

Many cops play the threat game and use intimidation to shoo people away from the airport. They are playing on the inevitable hype associated with a serious issue and are relying on an ingrained fear of enforcement officers. If you 'challenge' them in a diplomatic fashion, they should realise that they have little legal recourse to remove you in the absence of a complaint along the lines of 'disturbing the peace', 'trespassing' or something similar. Of course one is going to face the odd aggressive enforcement asshole, in which case it's wise to smile and move on rather than stubbornly assert your rights. They can detain you (illegally) and make life miserable for a few hours. But in Canada at least, fortunately most cops have a shred of common sense about them and are able to determine what the high-risk activities near airports are. I have asked my brothers, who are cops, what rationale they have to forcibly detain or remove somebody in such a case as described above and they replied they have none unless the owner of the specific property wishes them gone. There are no Canadian laws that I'm aware of that prevent snapping as many pictures at commercial airports as one likes.

My advice: continue to watch airplanes land and take photos if you like and if & when the authorities stop by, have a good conversation with them. In my experience, it helps to build bridges and they have always permitted me to carry on unhindered. In a couple cases, they were aviation buffs too.
Sorry to hear about your experience in the American 'top 20' airport, and here's hoping the US cops lighten up and see the real risks out there.

If this is ORD, then I think that there is an existing thread.

Why not just let the cops do thier job and come back in a few days or weeks? I just dont see how anyone can be suprised or mad that cops are on high alert right now. You have to have a little understanding of the situation right now.

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 2): My advice: continue to watch airplanes land and take photos if you like and if & when the authorities stop by, have a good conversation with them. In my experience, it helps to build bridges and they have always permitted me to carry on unhindered. In a couple cases, they were aviation buffs too.

Thats very good advice. Yes, some airport cops are real jerks but even if you dont get your way just be polite.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Thread starter): Stay away from airports until the alert level goes down.

That's just common sense. I was planning to spot today, but I've been informed by a neighbor that the airport is a mess and it would be wise not to.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 1): I guess that's changed. Pretty soon TSA will be telling everyone not to look up in the sky.

Yes, quite a possibility.....all a.netters will probably end up behind bars then....the wrong type of 'bars', that is.... 

Although I understand the need to be security conscious, this is only going to inconvenience genuine spotters....the diabolical bas_ _ _ds who want to make this world an unsafe place, will obviously not stand out in the open when they want to take pics of place that they plan to blow up.....

Quoting Supa7E7 (Thread starter): Stay away from airports until the alert level goes down

Quite confuse to be agree, but it makes sense. Hold on for a little while, and it will be fine. I mean I do understand that Police and Security Staff are under heavy pressure right now, so ...  

Should be Ok to take a look, but we could maybe spare the big lens for a couple a weeks ...

My 2 cents,
Raphael

Quoting Supa7E7 (Thread starter): Well I just got busted at one of the nation's top 20 airports.

You went today?!? And your bitching that you go busted? Cmon man. Use your head, this is probly the WORST time to go spotting right now...

Quoting Supa7E7 (Thread starter): they are all under the exact same security strategy.

Not BDL, so long as you stick to the spotters lot. The state police dont mind then.

Ask the police to site the law you are breaking. When they can't come up with one tell them you are glad they are concerned but since you are breaking no law you will continue to do what you are doing. In America the legislature makes the laws and the police only enforce the laws that are on the books. But keep in mind that if you do the above don't be surprised if you are pulled over later for going 1 mile over the speed limit.

Predictable yes, also an intolerable breach of civil rights.

But based on the responses, maybe its time to change the lyrics from

"land of the free, home of the brave"

to

"land of the secure, home of the scared"

My advice would be to take pictures from "accepted" areas...

I tried to get a little "smart" by taking photos at a location, though not illegal, a bit conspicuous and got a bit hassled..


MyAviation.net photo:

Photo © Jacobin777



I think taking photos from "approved areas" should be ok....well..at least I hope so.... 

I was out spotting at YYZ (on airport property) yesterday and a security guy drove up, waved and told us to enjoy ourselves.
Some common sense is required by everyone spotters and authorities alike.

Cheers,
Kaz

What do you expect? At a time like this when people still think there is a high danger then you just have to do what the cops say. At the end of the day what they say goes!

BAguy

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 9): Ask the police to site the law you are breaking.

I wish it was that easy!

Police can cite any number of laws, the first of which is loitering in a public place. Apparently, this is not being enforced at "approved" spotting areas. So, why push the point now?

There's a saying, "You can beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride".

Being a security officer, I know first hand that there is nothing "they" can do to you. I work at a small Intl. airport and see many people every day around the airport watching or snapping pictures.

The official line from Admin is that as long as they are not blocking the road, breaching the AOA, or on a private airport tenants property, let them be. Granted, we have also been told to be extra vigilant at this time, so don't be surprised to be spoken to.

Personally, being a photographer, I always stop and talk to someone with a camera just to talk about the hobby etc... In any case don't let this deter you from our hobby, and I extend my personal invitation to spot at MFR any day of the week!

John

[Edited 2006-08-11 22:43:53]

This is where security measures are senseless and is a complete waste of resources. Taking pictures next to the fence is about as threatening to aviation as Paris Hilton is to celibacy. Do these idiots actually think that an individual on a "recon mission" would be in a visible area? No. Do they think that someone who means harm would want to be visible before committing an act? Of course not! They are going to be hiding somewhere out of view. Do these morons think that spotters are out to see what time specific airlines/airplanes are taking off or landing? No!! This info is much more easily found on the net. Hell, IMO, spotters are the ally in this scenario.

Aww f*#t it.. what the hell do I know, I just work here.    Yet one more thing Al Queda has screwed up for the rest of us,.   

Quoting Baguy (Reply 13): At the end of the day what they say goes!

neither the UK or USA are police states yet.

I never have a problem standing on the parking garages at ATL and taking as many as I'd like....a time here and there a cop would come up and ask what I was doing, so I'd strike up a good convo and we'd usually get into some good friendly chatter....5-15 mins later, they're off on their way, leaving you back to your work.

Catch more bees with honey as they say.

DeltaGuy

Quoting Supa7E7 (Thread starter): Well I just got busted at one of the nation's top 20 airports. Outside the fence, snapping a few photos.

Its unfortunate, but this is what happens when the USA goes into a "code orange" mode.

Speaking from a student interning at an airport, its amazing how overlooked things suddenly become carefully watched: suspicious persons, extra cautious around SIDA (secure ID display area) areas, more frequent perimeter checks...

Probably depends where you are. If you are standing at the end of a runway with a huge camera resembling a rifle or bazooka or something, they might get upset.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 1): A couple of weeks ago I was at the In&Out Burger at LAX, and I noticed several people with cameras...I fully expected police to come over and stop us, but several drove by, and none said anything.

That's In-N-Out's private property. LAX security shouldn't have any control over that property, and the LAPD definitely won't care.

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 2): This poster was 'outside the fence' which I assume means off airport property and simply taking photographs.

Not necessarily. At MSY, we own quite a bit of adjacent property that is not fenced off.

Quoting N231YE (Reply 19): its amazing how overlooked things suddenly become carefully watched: suspicious persons, extra cautious around SIDA (secure ID display area) areas, more frequent perimeter checks...

That's because an elevated threat level automatically adds numerous security responsibilities and checks.

Quoting Robsawatsky (Reply 10): Predictable yes, also an intolerable breach of civil rights.

I heard something very profound this morning, and it bears repeating....."my life is of a higher priority than your privacy".

Tom at MSY

All it takes is a simple call to airport ops. They will tell when,where and how.

Quoting Extremetrek (Reply 15): Being a security officer, I know first hand that there is nothing "they" can do to you. I work at a small Intl. airport and see many people every day around the airport watching or snapping pictures. The official line from Admin is that as long as they are not blocking the road, breaching the AOA, or on a private airport tenants property, let them be. Granted, we have also been told to be extra vigilant at this time, so don't be surprised to be spoken to. Personally, being a photographer, I always stop and talk to someone with a camera just to talk about the hobby etc... In any case don't let this deter you from our hobby, and I extend my personal invitation to spot at MFR any day of the week!

That is the best advice. thanks.

Oh, and don't forget.. I have my legal advisor on speed dial on my mobile.

Yesterday and today i was at the end of runway 14 in ANC and i had no problems, no cops even drove by and i was probably there for a few hours each time

There has been a lot of good--and a lot of not so good advice posted here!

If you're around airport property and "the cop starts hassling you." you're probably going to have problems.

If you take a moment to realize he's just doing his job and answer his questions in a friendly manner, you will probably not have any problem at all. All too often we see the cops as the enemy, when in reality, they're only doing their jobs. To protect us.

You may very well have a "right" to be where you are, but being too demanding of you rights will cause you problems. Better to calmly discuss your reasons with the officer.

If you conduct yourself like a gentleman (woman) you will probably have NO problems with your spotting.

By the way, we all know that if we're unlucky enough to get arrested, processed, held overnight in the lockup, and sent to court in the morning, we'll get off if the cop forgot to give us a Miranda warning. Right?? (Most cops probably would not bother to give a Miranda under the above circumstances.)

You were screwed, and effectively lied to.

I was subject to detainment and mini-interrogation when I tried to take photos at MHT and PVD airports, for a feature I was researching for the Boston Globe. My experience is recounted in this article:

http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2006/02/10/askthepilot173/

And they say the terrorists haven't won.

- Patrick Smith

www.askthepilot.com

Quoting AirbusfanYYZ (Reply 12): I was out spotting at YYZ (on airport property) yesterday and a security guy drove up, waved and told us to enjoy ourselves.

Quite surprising. But note that a security guy did drive up, so YYZ authorities were probably doing their job. Now, the guy was probably experienced and used to that, so he knew what to do (= not bother). But if they hire extra security staff (they probably will have to), these guys will be non-experienced and stupid problems can start again.

The Terrorists have won......

No spotting, so Airliners.net becomes a history site.
no iPod so everyone will go postal because you cant drown out the 2 yr old crying because he has no formula,
no deodorant so now we will all smell like terrorists,
no laptops and no productivity so your 3 hours of sitting there with a blank stare, tolerating the kid and smelling the girl with BO next to you leads you to muse reasons to get a vasectomy and never date again,
once all the men are sterile, our race will die, and the radical muslims take over the world.

They won! 

I can relate, just got busted yesterday.

let them arrest you and sue for 10 mill.

Quoting EmSeeEye (Reply 4): Why not just let the cops do thier job and come back in a few days or weeks? I just dont see how anyone can be suprised or mad that cops are on high alert right now. You have to have a little understanding of the situation right now.

To hell with that, this is exactly what the terrorists want. For us to hide in our homes and alter our lives. Why do we have to run in fear? Let the TSA, Homeland Security or whomever come check me out, ask any question and make sure my camera is not a weapon. Then leave me the hell alone.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 8): You went today?!? And your bitching that you go busted? Cmon man. Use your head, this is probly the WORST time to go spotting right now...

Like post 9/11 there has been a good time to go spotting? (stroking myself)

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 31): (stroking myself)

Like that's different from any other time?

Quoting Ordryan28 (Reply 29): I can relate, just got busted yesterday.

Could you please tell us what occurred?

Quoting AirbusfanYYZ (Reply 12): I was out spotting at YYZ (on airport property) yesterday and a security guy drove up, waved and told us to enjoy ourselves. Some common sense is required by everyone spotters and authorities alike. Cheers, Kaz

Glad to hear that, Kaz. I hope to do some spotting on Monday, and was the slightest bit concerned despite the YYZ airport watch.

- Jason DePodesta

Quoting Ordryan28 (Reply 29): I can relate, just got busted yesterday

At ORD? Care to elaborate?

I spotted at DCA today and nothing happened. The cops drove in to the parking area. Hung out, and then left.

I was at the BWI observation park spotting with 2 other people with no problems.   

Most law enforcement people that stopped me, ask what I was doing (DAH) and wanted to see my ID, that was it. I continueded to shoot pictures.

Also note, that those big lenses like the Canon 100-400mm "L" series lenses do attract attention.   

Yanni

Well said Patrick like almost all of your writing right to the point! any one who reads these boards and foes not read your stuff each week is cheating themselves of a very good place to get insight on what happens on the other side of the cockpit door.

Hey folks why not print out a copy of Patricks article and tuck it in your camara bag and show this quote the next time you are told no photos? You might want to make a few sections in large type and bold as well!

Quoting Aviateur (Reply 26): *************** The million-dollar questions are: Is it a violation of law to take photographs at airports? And under whose jurisdiction does the matter fall? "No, it's not against the law," says Anne Davis, a Transportation Security Administration (TSA) spokeswoman. When asked about jurisdiction, Davis describes TSA as the overseer of all airport security matters, including the supervision of local law enforcement. "The buck stops with us," she says, adding that the agency has no specific policy with regard to picture taking, other than asking people not to tape or photograph screening apparatus.

*************
AND THIS ONE
***********

Quoting Aviateur (Reply 26): I then presented the issue to Phil Orlandella, the media relations director for Boston's Logan International Airport. As the departure point for both of the 767s that hit the World Trade Center on Sept. 11, Logan's security procedures came under intense scrutiny in the weeks that followed. Orlandella's office sits off a corridor between Terminals B and C, and he's been intimate with all all things Logan for more than a quarter century. "Who controls security, TSA or the local police?" he says. "They both do, it's that simple. And no, it's not against any rules to take pictures, inside or outside, period. If anyone tells you otherwise, that's a bunch of baloney."

Cheers
Windy
Retired Airline Pilot ever ready to do some hanger flying

Quoting Aviateur (Reply 26): You were screwed, and effectively lied to. I was subject to detainment and mini-interrogation when I tried to take photos at MHT and PVD airports, for a feature I was researching for the Boston Globe. My experience is recounted in this article: http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2006/02/10/askthepilot173/ And they say the terrorists haven't won. - Patrick Smith www.askthepilot.com

Quoting Supa7E7 (Thread starter): Overall the cops were nice but incredibly firm. Next time I'd be in jail in 2 seconds.

For what?

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 2): Here's where I have a problem: This poster was 'outside the fence' which I assume means off airport property and simply taking photographs. I can see and agree with the enforcement if the airport authority chooses not to allow spotters on its property - that's their right. But under which laws or regulations can the police deter or jail a person for legal activity on public land?

They can't, unless they make something up. Loitering and disturbing the peace are convenient for this purpose.

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 9): Ask the police to site the law you are breaking. When they can't come up with one tell them you are glad they are concerned but since you are breaking no law you will continue to do what you are doing.

  

Quoting Baguy (Reply 13): What do you expect? At a time like this when people still think there is a high danger then you just have to do what the cops say. At the end of the day what they say goes!

And when you let your rights be trampled in that way, it only hastens us toward being a police state.

Quoting MichiganMAN (Reply 17): neither the UK or USA are police states yet.

Not quite, but we aren't moving further away from it either.

Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 21): I heard something very profound this morning, and it bears repeating....."my life is of a higher priority than your privacy".

I also heard a quote by Benjamin Franklin once...."Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Last I checked, cameras can't bring down planes, and while I have no problem with the practice of police or security touching base with or even lightly questioning spotters, at the end of the day the spotters are harming nothing and breaking no laws (unless they are trespassing).

Quoting Supa7E7 (Thread starter): The undercover airport cops have a message for me and for you. Stay away from airports until the alert level goes down. Pointing large cameras at planes near the airport fence is just not going to be tolerated anymore. You will be lucky to avoid interrogation.

This makes it even more fun to go spotting thesedays!!!

As far as spotting, is it better to go with a group of spotters rather than by yourself so it looks less "suspicious?" Or will they still arrest us all, with the morning headlines saying "10 Airliners.net terrorists tried to blow up airplanes by taking pictures"?

Well... the funny thing is, in most countries there is no law against spotting from public space. Security personell in many places abuse their authority and stop spotters, but it's acually them breaking the law by abusing their power rather than the spotter breaking the law.

I understand that people are nervous, but giving in to this turns our "free Western world" into the exact oppressed society that the self-proclaimed advocates of the "war on terror" claim to be fighting.

ive never been hassaled at dfw or dal but once i was told at ads by an addison police officer that "taking pictures of airplanes is illegel" i asked him what law stated this and he diden't know so i called the desk sergent and he said there was no law and the officer left me alone. i figure the hassel was more for me knowing the gate code and being on airport grounds, i am glad he talked to me b/c he probably had no idea why i was standing in the back of a truck near the runway with a camera. but my point in this is that you cannot be intimidated by police when they overexert authority especially when they don't have any law behind it.

happy spotting
--COAMiG29--

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 32): Could you please tell us what occurred?

Quoting Airfinair (Reply 34): At ORD? Care to elaborate?

well, I was at ORD yesterday (usually go 2-3 times a week). we spot across the street from the international terminal (T5) which creates a nice view of the heavies and aircraft landing /departing 27/22. after about 20 minutes in the spot where numerous people spot (have even seen a few A.net photographers here) 5 police cars surrounded this guy about 45 yards away from us in his mini-van, by himself, on his cell phone. he was there before I got there, and I'm not sure what he was up to. but a cop car soon saw my dad and I and kindly asked us to leave saying "they don't want anyone watching planes for a little while." it was a Schiller Park cop (for you Chicago-ans) who was very polite and even apologized. they weren't as concerned with us, but they were concerned with the man in the van. we left that area, but eventually found a location on the opposite side of the airport, about a mile away, to watch arrivals. I think we're going to be staying away from that area for a little while.

-Ryan

Quoting COAMiG29 (Reply 41): i was told at ads by an addison police officer that "taking pictures of airplanes is illegel" i asked him what law stated this and he diden't know so i called the desk sergent and he said there was no law and the officer left me alone.

Pretty interesting Matt seeing you work there. Glad you took that approach.

Quoting COAMiG29 (Reply 41): but my point in this is that you cannot be intimidated by police when they overexert authority especially when they don't have any law behind it.

  

Anyone heard anything about spotting up on the hill at LAX???
Have they made that off limits to spotters or have they left that alone????

Access-Air

Quoting Supa7E7 (Thread starter): Well I just got busted at one of the nation's top 20 airports.

Where???

Quoting Ordryan28 (Reply 29): I can relate, just got busted yesterday.

Where???

These warning threads are more or less useless unless you include a bit of information. It's pretty obvious that security is a bit tighter today then yesterday - and this applies to pretty much every airport on earth - but simply saying "I was busted" really doesn't help anyone.

Please tell us where this happened. An airport code would be much appreciated. Also include any other info that you can. We would ALL appreciate it!

Drew

Quoting Andrewuber (Reply 45): Where???

ORD, read my last post

Quoting Ordryan28 (Reply 46): ORD, read my last post

Woop OK, my bad.

I spot at ORD pretty frequently, but I stay away from the terminal, and I've only been harassed once (by some Captain America from one of the neighboring police departments).

Drew

Quoting Andrewuber (Reply 47): I spot at ORD pretty frequently, but I stay away from the terminal, and I've only been harassed once (by some Captain America from one of the neighboring police departments).

this was my first time

Quoting COAMiG29 (Reply 41): ive never been hassaled at dfw or dal but once i was told at ads by an addison police officer that "taking pictures of airplanes is illegel" i asked him what law stated this and he diden't know so i called the desk sergent and he said there was no law and the officer left me alone. i figure the hassel was more for me knowing the gate code and being on airport grounds, i am glad he talked to me b/c he probably had no idea why i was standing in the back of a truck near the runway with a camera. but my point in this is that you cannot be intimidated by police when they overexert authority especially when they don't have any law behind it.

Good for you! I've spotted at ADS for the past two years, and have never been outright hassled by any of Addison's finest... even late at night, sitting off the approach end to 15. But I have had many officers drive by me VERY slowly, probably running my car's plate (highlighted with an "I'd Rather Be Flying" license frame) or something.

BTW, was at the south observation area at ABQ today for about an hour, and no sign of any law enforcement. I was one of three or four people there. Granted, Albuquerque is likely all-but-off the map for terror considerations, but it was still encouraging.