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767-300ER
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USA-GRU/GIG

Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:55 am

I was wondering if anyone could tell me how the US-Brazil routes are doing loadwise. How are the UA flights doing, UA is relatively weak to latin america, is GRU/GIG as important to them as it used to be? Would UA ever pull out of Brazil? Also how is DL doing now that they will have the 3 daily flights to Brazil? Are they ever going to upgrade ATL-GRU to a 764? As for CO does EWR underperform IAH by much? If CO could would they ever upgrade IAH-GRU to a 777, of course knowing CO does not have the equipment but just a hypothetical question. And im sure AA is doing fine, check in at GRU at the AA counters are always a mess!! As for the Brazilian market, how do they view the US carriers? Which one has a good image in Brazil? Also IF CO would ever be awarded extra frequencies to Brazil, where would they add flights, IAH or EWR?
 
ualcsr
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:07 am

My UA friends at IAD and ORD have told me that flights to GRU have been extremely full. July 15th to August 15th (roughly) is always a busy time for travel from the US to Brasil and RG's situation has only made the demand for seats heavier. The same time period (7/15-8/15) tends to be slow for travel in the other direction (Brasil to USA), but friends have told me it's been busier than usual, I'd assume probably due to RG. I know of one NRSA who tried flying UA out of GRU at the end of July and didn't get on for a few days.

There's a rumor circulating around some Brasilian friends at ORD that UA will reinstate non-stop service to GIG, this time from IAD, sometime in early 2007; only a rumor right now.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting 767-300ER (Thread starter):
I was wondering if anyone could tell me how the US-Brazil routes are doing loadwise. How are the UA flights doing, UA is relatively weak to latin america, is GRU/GIG as important to them as it used to be? Would UA ever pull out of Brazil? Also how is DL doing now that they will have the 3 daily flights to Brazil? Are they ever going to upgrade ATL-GRU to a 764? As for CO does EWR underperform IAH by much? If CO could would they ever upgrade IAH-GRU to a 777, of course knowing CO does not have the equipment but just a hypothetical question. And im sure AA is doing fine, check in at GRU at the AA counters are always a mess!! As for the Brazilian market, how do they view the US carriers? Which one has a good image in Brazil? Also IF CO would ever be awarded extra frequencies to Brazil, where would they add flights, IAH or EWR?

- United is doing a good job nowadays like UALCSR says. I doubt they drop Brazilian routes as they are for sure profitable.
- DL is also doing good. Their flights to Brazil today as per the seat map on their website also confirm this:

ATL-GIG 28C 181Y (2C free / 4Y free)
ATL-GRU 31C 171Y (4C free)
JFK-GRU 23C 171Y (13C free)

GRU-ATL 20C 158Y (16C / 13Y free)
GRU-JFK 19C 122Y (17C / 49Y free)
GIG-ATL 24C 175Y (6C / 10Y free)

Delta will run a seasonal daily-light GRU-ATL during the summer (so US-Brazil will become 4x daily)

CO from IAH is mainly looking to oil market in Rio de Janeiro, where they obtain at least 50% (this is a point where we only know the past experience of some A.Netters) of their premium pax. Just need to say that 88% of Texas business is located near Rio de Janeiro/Macae (GIG/MEA). If they split IAH-GRU and IAH-GIG (with same planes), i have no doubt that Rio will perform better due to the oil !

Concerning to future services (depending on more frequencies on bilateral):

UA should run an IAD-GIG
AA should split and run a JFK-GIG, and also run a REC-MIA
CO could split their IAH into two flights, IAH-GRU / IAH-GIG, running EWR-GRU-GIG
DL could include a leg GRU-GIG into their JFK-GRU service. And add a Brazilian Northeast-ATL service.
* Note that the new services also allow more space for GRU and the south of Brazil markets.

All 4 companies are very well ranked by Brazilians but Tam keep a better service and a better C class. AA use to be the better rates (not from Rio), DL use to be the best option for west coast. IMO, CO keep the best image as a service provider, but AA is ahead in terms of image because of the size of their operations as well as they fly for the destinations where brazilians are always looking for (Miami and New York). AA is the biggest foreign airline in Brazil (a title they will only loose in 2 months to Aerolineas in terms of flights, but will keep as the king of the air in terms of seats).

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
767-300ER
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:51 am

I find it hard to believe though that CO is OVERWHELMINGLY doing better to GIG than GRU fom IAH, CO is in the business to make money and if flying nonstop to Rio was to make more money, theyd do it. Also dont forget flight 93 is combined with EWR-GRU flight 31. So even though flight 93 GRU-GIG may have strong loads dont forget pax from 31 also boarded onto it at GRU.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:39 am

Quoting 767-300ER (Reply 3):
I find it hard to believe though that CO is OVERWHELMINGLY doing better to GIG than GRU fom IAH, CO is in the business to make money and if flying nonstop to Rio was to make more money, theyd do it. Also dont forget flight 93 is combined with EWR-GRU flight 31. So even though flight 93 GRU-GIG may have strong loads dont forget pax from 31 also boarded onto it at GRU.

So try to explain why CO sells for August 14 (this Monday) GIG-GRU-IAH showing 15C available on GIG-IAH and only 8C on GRU-IAH. We know they cannot sell GIG-GRU and if they sell GIG-GRU-EWR the seat become unavailable on GIG-GRU leg also. If they believe Sao Paulo market is bigger they just put ALL seats available like all others.

They probably RESERVE/LOCK more seats for Rio as they know after years of operations that LAST MINUTE BUSINESS FIRST tickets use to be sold to Rio Oil Market and NOT Sao Paulo. This issue/rule isn't new.
Why they fly GRU ? Good question, i don't have the answer, and believe me, DL service GIG-ATL took part of Oil market from CO.

Check on CO website.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
767-300ER
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:53 am

Interestingly enough. But CO has no reason to fly to GRU non stop if GIG would make more money. Explain that to me. If the high paying pax want non stop to GIG why wouldnt continental want to please them? CO is in the business to make money. Also will EWR-GRU ever upgrade to the 764?
 
LipeGIG
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:53 am

Quoting 767-300ER (Reply 5):
Interestingly enough. But CO has no reason to fly to GRU non stop if GIG would make more money. Explain that to me.

As i told you, i don't know this answer, but i strong believe IAH is a oil city ahead of all other business, and as far as i know, and i live in Sao Paulo, 100% of oil industry in Brazil is located in Rio. I believe 3 or 4 times we discuss this flight and never come into an unanimous point of view.

Concerning to the market GRU-EWR i believe it's strong, but with DL and JJ on JFK-GRU market (even replacing RG) and i see Tam in the near future running some daily lights from JFK, i don't know if CO has plans for an upgrade on this route. Nowadays seems CO is, behind the 4 flying to Brazil, the one with little eyes and the smaller player.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
QXatFAT
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:12 pm

Hey Felipe!

Here is a different question for you. How is the DL flight going to be during the daylight? Isnt is just mostly over the carribian as well jungle?

Who is making the most money off of the routes direct to GRU Felipe? DL, UA, CO, AA (only american carriers).

Any word on any other airlines from Brasil, GOL; TAM; RICO, adding any flights to the US? I heard in other threads that VASP might be macking a comback as well.

Thanks in advance Felipe!

Kyle
QXatFAT
Don't Tread On Me!
 
MAH4546
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:14 pm

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 7):

Who is making the most money off of the routes direct to GRU Felipe? DL, UA, CO, AA (only american carriers).

AA, without question, at least overall. They are trying to add a 4th daily MIA-GRU flight this winter if ANAC lets them.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 7):

Any word on any other airlines from Brasil, GOL; TAM; RICO, adding any flights to the US? I heard in other threads that VASP might be macking a comback as well.

TAM is planning a 4th daily MIA flight, to GIG.
a.
 
QXatFAT
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:29 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
TAM is planning a 4th daily MIA flight, to GIG.

So the only other way another carrier such as US can get into Brasil is if GOL or Rico come across to the United States correct?
Don't Tread On Me!
 
LipeGIG
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:33 pm

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 7):
Here is a different question for you. How is the DL flight going to be during the daylight? Isnt is just mostly over the carribian as well jungle?

Seems to be a route that really allows looking the Caribbean and the jungle, closer to MAO, and after this a direct airway to GRU. Very similar to MIA-GRU.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 7):
Who is making the most money off of the routes direct to GRU Felipe? DL, UA, CO, AA (only american carriers).

Agree with MAH4546, AA has a good knowledge on cargo market and it's the number 1 for pax also keep 2 flights with 3 class configuration (so they get more premium pax on F+C), and use the biggest planes and more important, they are the king of the best route (MIA), also the shorter one.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 7):
Any word on any other airlines from Brasil, GOL; TAM; RICO, adding any flights to the US? I heard in other threads that VASP might be macking a comback as well.

Gol has a plan to run flights to the US, nothing for 2006 or even 2007, but you can wait to see Gol flying into the US by 2008.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LipeGIG
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:36 pm

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 9):
So the only other way another carrier such as US can get into Brasil is if GOL or Rico come across to the United States correct?

Not only Gol and Rico, but a 5th player and even this way the bilateral need to be changed as it allows only 4 players for each country and also, there are only 2 available weekly slots on US-Brazil market. You need to upgrade the number of players and the number of frequencies.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
QXatFAT
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:47 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
Not only Gol and Rico, but a 5th player and even this way the bilateral need to be changed as it allows only 4 players for each country and also, there are only 2 available weekly slots on US-Brazil market. You need to upgrade the number of players and the number of frequencies.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 10):
Gol has a plan to run flights to the US, nothing for 2006 or even 2007, but you can wait to see Gol flying into the US by 2008.

So where do you think GOL would have these routes? MIA seems like it will be to congested. RICO, could they even open up in this market? Maybe MAO service or something. GOL would also have to get new aircraft such as RICO correct? 757 or something like this
Don't Tread On Me!
 
LipeGIG
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:02 pm

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 12):
So where do you think GOL would have these routes? MIA seems like it will be to congested. RICO, could they even open up in this market? Maybe MAO service or something. GOL would also have to get new aircraft such as RICO correct? 757 or something like this

Rico does not keep equipment for a flight to the US, and their main market, MAO (concerning to international flights) is now under JJ hands and could be the point for Gol flight to the US as their 738 is capable to fly MAO-MIA non stop.

I see Rico going to the southeast (they have plans for Sao Paulo) first and getting a better network before venturing on international flights.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
MAH4546
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:45 pm

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 12):
MIA seems like it will be to congested.

In terms of heavy amount of Miami-Brazil flights or the airport itself? Because if the latter, there is plenty of space at MIA. The airport is definitley not congested. A 73G can reach Miami from Manaus or Belem.
a.
 
QXatFAT
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:33 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
In terms of heavy amount of Miami-Brazil flights or the airport itself? Because if the latter, there is plenty of space at MIA. The airport is definitley not congested. A 73G can reach Miami from Manaus or Belem.

In terms of Miami to Brasil flights. All of the AA flights, TAM and does Lloyd Aero Boliviano still fly MIA-GRU with the 767? To me it seems that if GOL or Rico added flights to MIA it would be to much Brasil into MIA. Although I do think that there should be some flights to the north of Brasil such as MAO, FOR, BSB, BEL (Belem?)

Any word on the talk about MIA to northern Brasil for AA?

[Edited 2006-08-14 09:35:10]
Don't Tread On Me!
 
QXatFAT
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:36 pm

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 15):
Lloyd Aero Boliviano still fly MIA-GRU

Sorry I mean MIA-MAO (Tried to Edit as you can see)
Don't Tread On Me!
 
MAH4546
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:02 pm

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 15):
In terms of Miami to Brasil flights. All of the AA flights, TAM and does Lloyd Aero Boliviano still fly MIA-GRU with the 767? To me it seems that if GOL or Rico added flights to MIA it would be to much Brasil into MIA. Although I do think that there should be some flights to the north of Brasil such as MAO, FOR, BSB, BEL (Belem?)

Miami-Brazil will definitley welcome more airlines. It might lower profit for the incubents, but it would spur demand. LAB no longer flies MIA-MAO because of their financial troubles and loss of long-haul planes. MIA flights are via PTY on a 727. It was good timing for TAM. The LAB flights ended a week after TAM's daily MIA-MAO flight started.
a.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:49 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Miami-Brazil will definitley welcome more airlines. It might lower profit for the incubents, but it would spur demand.

Agree 100%, also as a strong connecting point as well as the top destination, MIA is ahead of any other US destination, demand continue to improve and is nowadays helped by the better US$ x R$ rate.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 15):
Any word on the talk about MIA to northern Brasil for AA?

I don't think so, the valuable Brazilians slots are better suitable for use on GRU and GIG markets. Even with ex-bilateral slots, i doubt Tam will allow MAO to be a sort of "open skies"

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
MAH4546
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:51 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 18):
I don't think so, the valuable Brazilians slots are better suitable for use on GRU and GIG markets. Even with ex-bilateral slots, i doubt Tam will allow MAO to be a sort of "open skies"

TAM has no say in the matter, so that doesn't matter.

AA has recently been eyeing Recife and/or Brasilia.
a.
 
QXatFAT
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:26 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 18):
Agree 100%, also as a strong connecting point as well as the top destination, MIA is ahead of any other US destination, demand continue to improve and is nowadays helped by the better US$ x R$ rate.

Felipe, do you have some numbers that show the MIA flights to GRU, GIG for AA and for TAM. And then numbers on the flights back to MIA? Also compaired to the UA flights out of IAD and to IAD, same with ORD? Is there a place I can go to see these?
Don't Tread On Me!
 
gigneil
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:45 pm

Quoting 767-300ER (Reply 5):
But CO has no reason to fly to GRU non stop if GIG would make more money.

They have one major reason, widebody availability. They have few, very few.

N
 
767-300ER
Topic Author
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:03 pm

fair enough, but if GIG was making more money they could, with the same widebody fly IAH-GIG-GRU
 
LipeGIG
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:50 pm

Quoting 767-300ER (Reply 22):
fair enough, but if GIG was making more money they could, with the same widebody fly IAH-GIG-GRU

It creates a problem of how GIG can connect the EWR flight ? The only solution could be EWR-GRU-GIG and IAH-GIG-GRU but it also increase costs of a new leg. CO use to be more aggressive in Brazil but nowadays it's the last one among the 4 US carriers flying Brazil-US.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
767-300ER
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:55 am

IF CO could, would they upgrade Brazil flights to the 777? Also if they were given extra frequencies would they just do IAH-GRU, IAH-GIG or would they do 2 IAH-GRU-GIG. Will EWR ever be upgraded to a 764?
 
LipeGIG
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RE: USA-GRU/GIG

Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:29 am

Quoting 767-300ER (Reply 24):
Also if they were given extra frequencies would they just do IAH-GRU, IAH-GIG or would they do 2 IAH-GRU-GIG

Better if they split the flight and extend EWR to GIG IMO.

Quoting 767-300ER (Reply 24):
Will EWR ever be upgraded to a 764?

I doubt, but i don't know the numbers/loads for this flight 767-300ER. In the past they run EWR-GRU and EWR-GIG but it's just after R$ devaluation and just after September 11 CO drops EWR-GIG.

Quoting 767-300ER (Reply 24):
IF CO could, would they upgrade Brazil flights to the 777?

I don't think so as they have a few 777's and this route would need 2 aircrafts.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !

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