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jetlanta
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:40 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 95):
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 92):
Since there are NO competitive airports for all of Salt Lake City, Ogden, Provo, etc..., SLC gets to claim all of that traffic legitimately. In other words, SLC has a very large catchment area, one much larger than its MSA. On the otherhand, SMF, for example, shares much of its traffic base with other airports such as OAK and SFO (for international). Even though the SMF MSA is larger, SLC actually generates more O&D traffic.

This is key. Looking at census derived MSA data is not all that valuable when evaluating air service markets. You have to look at catchment data.

Exactly. This is what so many people on here get wrong. The population of a market is only one factor. The geography, nature of the economy, competitive airports, etc...all have an impact. In this case, SLC is one of the highest performing passenger air travel markets per capita. As the population increases, the market will continue to grow with it. Long term, it is a solid play as a hub, as is Denver. The difference is that DL doesn't have to deal with F9 like UA does. I'm willing to take a pretty educated guess that DL's SLC hub outperforms UA's DEN hub on a P&L basis (profit & loss).

SLC has suffered from an undeserved reputation as a poor hub. It went through some lean years, most of which had more to do with Delta's costs and network strategy, rather than the market itself. Now that those things are in better order, the hub is performing better. It is pretty clear that DEN is not a great performer for UA, however.

To those who want to compare DEN and SLC, look at ATL and DFW. Just because ATL is a busier airport doesn't make DFW a bad hub. Just different. Same is true here.
 
AADC10
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:49 am

Who cares how big Salt Lake City is? The interesting detail is that DL looks like it is trying to return to its roots by creating a hub with massive numbers of flights to small cities, much as they did with ATL. The fact that SLC has a fairly small population may work to DL's advantage since nobody would want to try to muscle in on a city that size. AA by comparison has all but abandoned hubs at SJC and RNO. All of the western cities the same size or larger have rather hefty competition particularly from WN. Obviously WN flies to SLC, but they do not have a large presense and they do not go to many of the smaller towns. Heck, DL has more destinations from SLC than WN has destinations.

It will be interesting to see how DL does in the west, which has been notoriously competitive. They of course started out in a tough market, small and often poor towns in the deep south.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 56):
The whole reason for the UA Express buildup at LAX was due to the lack of proximity of DEN to the west coast to cover needed CRJ flights.

DEN never needed to reach the west coast with UAX since most of the costal fligths go through SFO or LAX. The LAX buildup was due to UA's retreat from their alleged hub there, passing most of the inter-California flights except SFO to UAX. Going back to DEN, it is used by UA mostly for east-west connections while SFO handles most of the connections up and down the coast. UAX connects DEN with the Mountain and Plains states. After DL shut down the Western hub at LAX many years ago and the DFW hub more recently, SLC is their only hub west of the Mississippi so they have to cover all of the west from there.
 
CWAFlyer
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:51 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 87):
For the record my sources on Delta Airlines are area Sales Rep's in NYC, and someone inside of planning the hotels for Flight Attendants..



Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 87):
For the record my sources on Delta Airlines are area Sales Rep's in NYC, and someone inside of planning the hotels for Flight Attendants..

Planning the hotels for F/A's? Someone at Delta or SkyWest?
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 102):
Planning the hotels for F/A's? Someone at Delta or SkyWest?

Delta Airlines..
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
FATFlyer
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:18 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 56):
The whole reason for the UA Express buildup at LAX was due to the lack of proximity of DEN to the west coast to cover needed CRJ flights



Quoting AADC10 (Reply 101):
The LAX buildup was due to UA's retreat from their alleged hub there, passing most of the inter-California flights except SFO to UAX.

Part of the reason for the LAX increase by UAX in 2000 was because SFO was talking about limiting flights to reduce delays. Some markets that used to get UA connections at SFO lost or had reduced the SFO flights but gained LAX flights.

Then-Mayor Willie Brown had an infamous comment about the Shuttle 737s on SFO to LAX and the intra-California United Express prop planes. He called them "itty- bitty pantywaist planes".

Some historical articles:
SFO May Force Airlines to Use Bigger Planes
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl....cgi?f=/c/a/1999/02/04/MN37917.DTL
SFO Wants To Reduce Number Of Flights United Airlines would be told to use bigger jets
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl....cgi?f=/c/a/2000/04/20/MN50459.DTL
Airline Agrees to Reduce Delays, United responds to SFO ultimatum
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl....cgi?f=/c/a/2000/06/08/MN78665.DTL
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 92):
28 PDX 1,351,410
29 STL 1,305,740
30 SLC 1,285,870
31 SMF 1,244,250
32 SJC 1,229,080
33 MSY 1,208,650
34 SNA 1,199,540
35 MCI 1,166,240
36 MIA 1,162,870
37 RDU 1,078,430

Funny STL, SMF, ATL are all above MIA in O/D

Funny MSY is below SLC, SMF, STL in O/D
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
jetlanta
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:18 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 105):

Funny STL, SMF, ATL are all above MIA in O/D

Funny MSY is below SLC, SMF, STL in O/D

To be fair, this is DOMESTIC O&D. MIA is a huge international O&D market, while FLL caters to the domestic market.

Some of the ATL naysayers ought to take a real close look at this list, though.
 
SESGDL
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:30 am

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 106):
To be fair, this is DOMESTIC O&D. MIA is a huge international O&D market, while FLL caters to the domestic market.

MIA is still not as busy internationally as people on here seem to think. The US's largest international airports by international passengers in 2005 were:

1. New York John F. Kennedy International Airport - 18,534,215
2. Los Angeles International Airport - 17,469,927
3. Miami - 14,200,000

Domestically MIA had 16.8 million passengers, so roughly 52% of domestic passengers at MIA were O&D. The international ratio is roughly the same, closer to 60% O&D. That's not the remarkable number of international O&D that I've heard pushed around by people on here.

Jeremy

[Edited 2006-08-16 00:31:46]
 
eva777sea
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:28 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 99):
Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 96):
According the the census 2004 estimates the SLC CSA has 1.5 million ok?


When the census is done again in 2010 it will be a likely safe assumption that the SLC CSA will include PVU as well as OGD. The same population overall size is what also determines TV market size and the Area of Dominant Influence (ADI). This effects how good a community is for having major league professional sports. SLC supports an NBA team, which means it is no small Podunk undeserving air service market either.

I know, i was talking to someone who said it was 1 million, should have been more specific.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:06 am

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 100):
Exactly. This is what so many people on here get wrong. The population of a market is only one factor. The geography, nature of the economy, competitive airports, etc...all have an impact. In this case, SLC is one of the highest performing passenger air travel markets per capita. As the population increases, the market will continue to grow with it. Long term, it is a solid play as a hub, as is Denver. The difference is that DL doesn't have to deal with F9 like UA does. I'm willing to take a pretty educated guess that DL's SLC hub outperforms UA's DEN hub on a P&L basis (profit & loss).

SLC has suffered from an undeserved reputation as a poor hub. It went through some lean years, most of which had more to do with Delta's costs and network strategy, rather than the market itself. Now that those things are in better order, the hub is performing better. It is pretty clear that DEN is not a great performer for UA, however.

To those who want to compare DEN and SLC, look at ATL and DFW. Just because ATL is a busier airport doesn't make DFW a bad hub. Just different. Same is true here.

thank you

I think SLC makes alot of money for Delta. It has minimal costs and the minimal delays save millions

The state of Utah and the city of Salt Lake should invest money in a longer runway ASAP to keep delta there.

After that a new terminal or at least a renovation should start ASAP along with getting delta to sign long long long leases for gates.

Delta and skywest are huge employers in Utah and the hub is worth the states investment. Utah benefits so much from the hub. They should invest to keep delta there. Worst case scenario if delta goes under(wont happen) if a new terminal is built you can bet AA, CO, Jetblue, or airtran will move in faster than a F18 hornet.

SLC is just a better location than DEN for a WESTERN hub. Its a blessed geographic location. Flying from SAN-SEA via SLC is ok but i would never want to fly any route on the west coast ie SAN-SEA via DEN too far east.
 
jetlanta
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:21 pm

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 109):
After that a new terminal or at least a renovation should start ASAP along with getting delta to sign long long long leases for gates.

Be careful what you ask for. One of the major reasons SLC is competitive as a hub is its CHEAP facilities. A new terminal or major would have negative impact on Delta's financial performance. The airport and Delta have worked very closely on this issue. On fact, the old expansion plan was terminated on Delta's insistence. I suspect you will only see marginal, incremental expansion of existing facilities for a while. Perhaps a new regional facility at some point.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:49 pm

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 110):
A new terminal or major would have negative impact on Delta's financial performance. The airport and Delta have worked very closely on this issue. On fact, the old expansion plan was terminated on Delta's insistence

Keep in mind that was Leo Mullin along with WN that got the major make-over shelved. Mullin was leaning towards ending SLC hub operations entirely. The thing SLC needs to do is find a way to do some significant improvements without breaking the bank in the process and ending up like SEA-TAC, MIA, DEN (until recently), DFW and YYZ. A few years ago the legislature cut the jet-fuel tax making SLC more attractive cost operations wise, even though the Teachers Union threw a major  hissyfit  over it.
What SLC needs very soon is:
1. At least one of the runaways extended to 15,000' to better accommodate fully fueled and laden wide-bodies headed off on a long distance flight. 12,000' will no longer cut it.
2. A terminal and concourse set-up that can realistically handle 20-30 million passengers per year, rather than getting by on the current set-up which in all reality was built for only 10-14 million.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
ASFlyer
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:30 pm

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 87):



Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 87):
For the record my sources on Delta Airlines are area Sales Rep's in NYC, and someone inside of planning the hotels for Flight Attendants..

Having first hand experience with negotiating crew hotel accomodations, I can safely say that unless they are planning on starting service within the next month or so, they are not looking for hotel accomodations yet. Additionally, Skywest would be arranging their hotel accomodations, not Delta.
 
gigneil
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:45 pm

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 87):

For the record my sources on Delta Airlines are area Sales Rep's in NYC, and someone inside of planning the hotels for Flight Attendants..

No they're not. None of these people would provide you with any information, nor would any of them be responsible for SLC's hotels.

Further, as has been pointed out, Skywest books their own hotels and much of any SLC buildup will be Skywest

N
 
floridaflyboy
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:48 pm

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 5):
There is a lot of talk that 12 Delta Connection cities, 8 Delta mainline domestic cities, 5 Delta mainline international cities will be added in 2007. Details will come about over the next 3-6 months.

I just hope we get DL mainline back in BIL. God, I miss the old days when we had four MD-90's a day roaring in and out of here. Who knows, maybe we'll get a non-stop ATL not too far off too.
Good goes around!
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:15 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 113):
No they're not. None of these people would provide you with any information, nor would any of them be responsible for SLC's hotels.

So lets just get this straight.. Sales Rep's and other employees within Delta are clueless as to any new service that is being planned. Coincidentally, did I say that the person who works with the hotels works for SkyWest? No, I did not, they work for Delta. In addition, or I must say by coincidence the person inside of Delta Crew Accom, and one of the Sales Rep's are related. A lot of people talk amongst themselves, and bets are that the person in Crew Accom is a more reliable source than the Sales Rep.

Why is it that on Airliners.net whenever AA, or CO add a new route they are considered golden, and any other airline adds a route they are socked in the eye? Just for all of your information Delta Airlines pans routes for income potential they arent just throwing a dart on a map. Dont forget what Delta gains, other loose. So in that essence... Lets hope Delta gets down and dirty with its expansion plans and goes for opther airlines weakest segments!
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
jetlanta
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:53 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 111):
Keep in mind that was Leo Mullin along with WN that got the major make-over shelved. Mullin was leaning towards ending SLC hub operations entirely.

This is absolutely not true. Leo never had any inclination to eliminate SLC. However, Delta was very clear with the city that a new terminal could force them into the position of having to close the operation. The city was moving forward with the project. Delta didn't want it under any circumstance due to costs. Delta used its leverage to get it killed. All of this is true, but Leo nor anyone else at Delta was ever leaning toward closing SLC.

The runway improvement you suggest is probably a good idea. However any major improvements in passenger facilities are going to have to wait until Delta has been through an extended period of profitability in SLC.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 116):
Leo never had any inclination to eliminate SLC. However, Delta was very clear with the city that a new terminal could force them into the position of having to close the operation. The city was moving forward with the project. Delta didn't want it under any circumstance due to costs.

Delta did not want SLC to turn into another MIA, SEA or YYZ which the method of funding was proposing to do. What will likely happen is DL will look at what can be afforded and what costs are realistic. During the 1990s there were too many overly costly airport projects that have been contributors to airline insolvency, and by 1998 DL could see this trend and did not want SLC to become part of it. More than likely the huge make-over at PIT convinced US it wasn't worth it to be as big as they were there. The build-up since 2005 has caught both DL and SLC by surprise however, and all of a sudden SLC finds itself with an obsolete facility.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 116):
Delta used its leverage to get it killed.

WN made it very clear as well they did not want it, and they are the number 2 carrier at SLC. But more than likely what shelved it was a change in the mayors office in 1999 when Ross C "Rocky" Anderson was elected mayor replacing Dedee Corodini who initiated it and was the biggest proponent behind it.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 116):
The runway improvement you suggest is probably a good idea. However any major improvements in passenger facilities are going to have to wait until Delta has been through an extended period of profitability in SLC.

Extending 34R-16L out across 2200 North Street will more than likely be next on the docket for runway improvements (The west side would be easier not building a huge tunnel/viaduct over the street, but the loss of more wetlands would get all of the environmental NIMBY's on the war-path!). The only passenger improvement I see on the immediate radar scope is a likely extension of the D concourse since SLC has a problem with gate gridlock for DL main-line metal.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
CWAFlyer
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 86):
Neither Malpena nor myself ever said anything other than there is "talk". I have no idea of Malpena's source of comments but mine are from the media and the airports not DL. I never said they were being "considered".

You didn't, but your friend makes it sound like it's a done deal.

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 71):
Yes Olympia, Washington via Pasco. The routing would be SLC-PSC-OLM



Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 71):
The flight would be a tag on operated SLC-SMF-Crescent City

CEC is not a Part 139 airport (anything over 30 seats) which eliminates both Delta and Delta Connection from going there. Unless your sources are telling you that Brasilias are going to fly this.

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 115):
So lets just get this straight.. Sales Rep's and other employees within Delta are clueless as to any new service that is being planned. Coincidentally, did I say that the person who works with the hotels works for SkyWest? No, I did not, they work for Delta. In addition, or I must say by coincidence the person inside of Delta Crew Accom, and one of the Sales Rep's are related. A lot of people talk amongst themselves, and bets are that the person in Crew Accom is a more reliable source than the Sales Rep.

Why is it that on Airliners.net whenever AA, or CO add a new route they are considered golden, and any other airline adds a route they are socked in the eye? Just for all of your information Delta Airlines pans routes for income potential they arent just throwing a dart on a map. Dont forget what Delta gains, other loose. So in that essence... Lets hope Delta gets down and dirty with its expansion plans and goes for opther airlines weakest segments!

You list a city (CEC) that neither Delta nor a Connection carrier CRJ can fly to. And we're to believe crew hotels have already been contacted? OLM and STS have runways barely over 5000 feet long and CLD is less than 5000 (4897 to be exact). How many people can a 737 take on that short of a runway? If your sources inside Delta are telling you they are considering flying to any of these places, then yes, they are clueless.
 
thegooddoctor
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:38 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 50):
Albuquerque, Tucson and Boise are all MUCH smaller if you're going to say Denver and Phoenix are that much larger.

They are. So what?

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 53):
You're talking about airport catchment area. There is no way southern Utah could be part of the Las Vegas metro area.

Haahaahaa - hey, once they build high speed rail through the canyons of Zion National Park, anything is possible!

Quoting OA412 (Reply 69):
That's the population of Salt Lake City proper. Salt Lake County is at just over 1 million with the airport's entire catchment area being at just over 2 million.

In that case the Catchment for PHX and SAN is around 5 million, LAX is 25 million - we're starting to get away from the original comparisons that were being made, but the same rules apply...

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 77):
SLC is in reality closer to DEN and PHX in population than to ABQ, TUC or BOI.



Quoting Stirling (Reply 85):
SLC is almost a fourth the size of PHX, but only a 100,000 larger than TUS.
At just a hair over a million, SLC certainly does belong in league with ABQ and TUS....maybe not BOI.

Something I think the SLC'ers have ignored is the fact that if DL folded up shop at SLC, their service would be roughly equivalent to what TUS and ABQ gets. Ie, 100 flights a day at best. If Delta didn't have a hub at SLC, I'm guessing we wouldn't be having this silly argument about peoples conflated population statistics...
The GoodDoctor
 
FATFlyer
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:05 am

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 118):
CEC is not a Part 139 airport (anything over 30 seats) which eliminates both Delta and Delta Connection from going there.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong about my info.

If I understand the quote you say CEC is not a Part 139 airport. But actually it is already a Part 139 airport, currently at Class II (10 to 30 seat aircraft). They would need to meet the standards for Class I for larger aircraft like RJs. I don't know the situation there in terms of what they need to change, if anything. Maybe one of the airport management people on a.net knows.

As far as DLConn using RJs at CEC, service started from Wilmington last month on RJs. The most recent list had ILG as only a Part 139 Class IV, unscheduled ops.

So the classifications do change. I would think Delta would be aware of what needs to be done at any airport where they would consider operating. That doesn't mean I am saying CEC is being considered, I don't know and haven't heard that anywhere but here.
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...edia/part139_cert_status_table.xls
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
eva777sea
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:26 am

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 119):
SLC is in reality closer to DEN and PHX in population than to ABQ, TUC or BOI.

Closer to DEN but not PHX.

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 119):
Something I think the SLC'ers have ignored is the fact that if DL folded up shop at SLC, their service would be roughly equivalent to what TUS and ABQ gets. Ie, 100 flights a day at best. If Delta didn't have a hub at SLC, I'm guessing we wouldn't be having this silly argument about peoples conflated population statistics...

Exactly.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:27 am

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 119):
Something I think the SLC'ers have ignored is the fact that if DL folded up shop at SLC, their service would be roughly equivalent to what TUS and ABQ gets. Ie, 100 flights a day at best. If Delta didn't have a hub at SLC, I'm guessing we wouldn't be having this silly argument about peoples conflated population statistics...

Time for "TheSLChatingDoctor" to get back to reality! It is a safe assumption that if DL pulled out of SLC, CO, AA, or even HP/US would take a good look at moving something in, perhaps not on par to what DL has invested in this place, but still enough to be known. The mid-latitude geographical location is just too good to not pass up having a network connection hub to cover the Basin & Range region as well as the Northern Rockies, and far enough away from DEN The other assumption one would safely make is that WN would turn SLC into a substantial presence similar to what they have in LAS and PHX. I think it is spewing stupid remarks to put SLC with 10.5 million O&D passengers in 2005 with Albuquerque and Tucson which were much further down in those rankings, not to mention "real catchment" areas. You guessed wrong so you get  flamed  !
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
HPRamper
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:29 am

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 119):
In that case the Catchment for PHX and SAN is around 5 million, LAX is 25 million - we're starting to get away from the original comparisons that were being made, but the same rules apply...

What about all the other Southern California airports, especially those with close proximity to LAX? Don't SNA, BUR, LGB and ONT take a good cut out of the LAX catchment? Or does LAX just encompass all of that?
 
thegooddoctor
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:33 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 123):
What about all the other Southern California airports, especially those with close proximity to LAX? Don't SNA, BUR, LGB and ONT take a good cut out of the LAX catchment? Or does LAX just encompass all of that?

I think you'd be willing to submit that SNA, BUR, LGB all do very small percentages of the traffic that LAX does. Regardless, my point was not to snub the SNA's and LGB's, as it was to point out that it is rediculous to be proclaiming the dominance of SLC on the side of the Mississippi  Wink
The GoodDoctor
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 123):
What about all the other Southern California airports, especially those with close proximity to LAX? Don't SNA, BUR, LGB and ONT take a good cut out of the LAX catchment? Or does LAX just encompass all of that?

Reliever airports only take so much away in such an instance. BUR and LGB are very minimal at best, and SNA has runway length and a/c size and curfew issues. Only ONT is capable of more, but doesn't get much comparatively. On the whole I think it is a safe assumption that all 4 of those airports have less of an effect on the LAX catchment than MDW does on ORD.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
airfrnt
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 81):

People don't seem to understand that UA's hub at DEN has a mere 30 or so more daily departures, what makes DEN so much larger is that it is a dual hub for UA and F9. Comparing DL and UA at SLC and DEN, there is not that much difference between the two. Similarly served cities with destinations and departures, very few international flights, DL has more cities served in the East from SLC. DEN does however have about 80-90 more mainline flights daily.

I suspect you mean destinations, rather then departures. Also, have you read the recent press releases and agreements where UA announced that they intend to add almost 100 daily flights to DEN?
 
Chugach
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 122):
Time for "TheSLChatingDoctor" to get back to reality! It is a safe assumption that if DL pulled out of SLC, CO, AA, or even HP/US would take a good look at moving something in, perhaps not on par to what DL has invested in this place, but still enough to be known. The mid-latitude geographical location is just too good to not pass up having a network connection hub to cover the Basin & Range region as well as the Northern Rockies, and far enough away from DEN The other assumption one would safely make is that WN would turn SLC into a substantial presence similar to what they have in LAS and PHX. I think it is spewing stupid remarks to put SLC with 10.5 million O&D passengers in 2005 with Albuquerque and Tucson which were much further down in those rankings, not to mention "real catchment" areas. You guessed wrong so you get flamed !

Bingo. If DL ever shut down the hub, you can bet the other airlines serving the airport will ramp up capacity to meet the demand. WN in particular. Between being a regional hub city with a fairly healthy, business-friendly economy, and being the headquarters of the LDS church, there is a fair amount of traffic to be had at SLC, no matter how small of a city some people think it is.
 
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:16 am

Quoting Chugach (Reply 127):
Between being a regional hub city with a fairly healthy, business-friendly economy, and being the headquarters of the LDS church, there is a fair amount of traffic to be had at SLC, no matter how small of a city some people think it is.

LOL! I must have forgotten about the lucrative LDS church commuter market (no drinks in first class, mind you  Wink)

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 122):
Time for "TheSLChatingDoctor" to get back to reality!

Oh come now, I don't hate Salt Lake - I think it's very pretty!
The GoodDoctor
 
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:19 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 122):
It is a safe assumption that if DL pulled out of SLC, CO, AA, or even HP/US would take a good look at moving something in, perhaps not on par to what DL has invested in this place, but still enough to be known.

US would absolutely jump in with a couple flights from PHL and CLT, and with maybe two or three additional frequencies from PHX/LAS, tops, but that's it. The last thing they need is yet another hub, or even focus city, in such a small area out west. CO or B6 seem most likely to me, as both are relatively weak in the west.
 
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 128):
LOL! I must have forgotten about the lucrative LDS church commuter market (no drinks in first class, mind you )

Funny thing you mentioned drinks in 1st Class, of the 23 other passengers I was with from SLC-SEA over last weekend, I observed only 4 having alcohol served to them  goodvibes .

Quoting Chugach (Reply 127):
there is a fair amount of traffic to be had at SLC, no matter how small of a city some people think it is.

The O&D numbers say quite a bit about SLC. They might be only half of what DEN gets, but SLC is a very business oriented and being as isolated as it is, flying is the only sure fast way to get where you are going.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 126):
Also, have you read the recent press releases and agreements where UA announced that they intend to add almost 100 daily flights to DEN?

UA is taking notice that DL has made SLC a DEN alternative for trans-con routing. They also know that DL will still be under court protection for another 4-6 months and what they can and will get away with!
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:30 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 129):
US would absolutely jump in with a couple flights from PHL and CLT

I think US is playing chicken with DL on who is going to offer an SLC-CLT flight as we write this blog! Both are significant banking centers.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 126):
I suspect you mean destinations, rather then departures. Also, have you read the recent press releases and agreements where UA announced that they intend to add almost 100 daily flights to DEN?

No, I mean departures. DL serves more destinations from SLC than UA offers from DEN. And though UA may have plans to do so, I don't know where the aircraft will come from to do that unless they are going to downsize another hub.

Jeremy
 
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:44 am

Any DEN growth will be limited and not at the expense of other hubs. Airbus frames are expected to be coming online in 2007 and will add to capacity as United will keep B737 frames longer than others expected. Denver has about 460 daily departures, don't quote me but another 15% isn't out of the question.

United knows about SLC and DL's recent push to make it the West's largest, but realizes that DEN has the room to grow.

ORD is limited in operations capacity due to the pretzel effect.
IAD will grow with UAX
LAX " "
SFO" " along with mainline equipment


Again, don't quote me on this....and no this isn't insider/confidential info my fellow UA employees...look through memos etc.
"...That's a lovely name. My name's Milton; Milton Ettenheim, but my friends call me Bubbles."
 
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:52 am

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 128):
LOL! I must have forgotten about the lucrative LDS church commuter market (no drinks in first class, mind you )

Wow.

You don't think that one of the fastest growing churches in the world, with missions all over the world, might generate a tad wee bit of business traffic from its SLC headquarters? I'm not even Mormon and that's a no-brainer to me. And the O&D numbers pretty much support that theory.

SLC reminds me a bit of Anchorage, my current place of residence, as far as O&D traffic is concerned. Despite having a relatively small population, ANC sees passenger service well and above what most similarly sized lower 48 cities would see thanks to its isolation.
 
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:42 am

Quoting Chugach (Reply 134):
Wow.

You don't think that one of the fastest growing churches in the world, with missions all over the world, might generate a tad wee bit of business traffic from its SLC headquarters? I'm not even Mormon and that's a no-brainer to me. And the O&D numbers pretty much support that theory.

I won't deny that the mormon church might have more "business structure", if you will, than other churches, which probably creates some traffic - however (as was my original point), SLC is not going to overtake DEN/PHX/LAX/SFO/SEA in size (argument one) or for O/D traffic because of the LDS church...
The GoodDoctor
 
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:47 am

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 135):
I won't deny that the mormon church might have more "business structure", if you will, than other churches, which probably creates some traffic - however (as was my original point), SLC is not going to overtake DEN/PHX/LAX/SFO/SEA in size (argument one) or for O/D traffic because of the LDS church...

Quite interestingly as a metro-area or catchment grows, so does O&D traffic, and sometimes it takes growing to attract a lucrative airline. PHX is quite the example of this, since back in the early to mid 1980s SLC was a busier airport with Western Airlines hub operation. HP was in it's relative infancy, but it's growth along with WN has made SkyHarbor what it is today. HP grew as the population in Phoenix continued to outpace the rest of the country, and fliers there no longer had to be dependant upon Delta/Western or UA, AA or WN picking up more flights in their linear system. It was by the late 1950s or early 1960s that PHX surpassed SLC in population, but still longer for it to pass it in air travel.
While growing significantly, but not as fast as places like PHX or LAS, SLC continues to see such flight options as it becomes a larger and larger O&D market. The PHX-SLC comparison is similar to the one that took place a generation or two before with LAX and SFO. For a long time the world came to the west coast of the USA through SFO, and LAX was secondary, hard to believe nowadays.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:52 am

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 135):
I won't deny that the mormon church might have more "business structure", if you will, than other churches, which probably creates some traffic - however (as was my original point), SLC is not going to overtake DEN/PHX/LAX/SFO/SEA in size (argument one) or for O/D traffic because of the LDS church...

Am I missing something, or did somebody, somewhere on this thread, claim that Salt Lake City is going to take over Denver, Phoenix, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Seattle and become the largest O&D city in the west, simply because Delta MIGHT operate the biggest hub in the western United States in terms of destinations offered?

Salt Lake City is a city. This much can be agreed upon. Is it bigger than your current residence of Phoenix? No. Is it bigger in Seattle? No. Does Delta Airlines operate a large number of flights from Salt Lake City? Yes. And despite what your opinion evidently is, somebody at Delta has evidently deemed SLC worthy of hub status despite not being one of the biggest cities in the west. And glory be, it appears to be working for them!
 
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:06 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 136):
While growing significantly, but not as fast as places like PHX or LAS, SLC continues to see such flight options as it becomes a larger and larger O&D market.

SLC itself, NOT THE METRO AREA is getting smaller, and as long as we are talking about O&D on the west coast i think PDX also has more O&D traffic than SLC. Although I would not be very suprised if SLC passed PDX.
 
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:07 pm

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 138):
SLC itself, NOT THE METRO AREA is getting smaller, and as long as we are talking about O&D on the west coast i think PDX also has more O&D traffic than SLC. Although I would not be very surprised if SLC passed PDX.

Have news for you EVA777SEA; Both PDX and SLC finished in a virtual dead heat for O&D passengers during 2005 at 10.7 million and 10.4 million respectively; http://www.eclatconsulting.com/im_pdf/top_200_us_markets.pdf
Now throw in another 12 million connecting passengers, and you have over 22 million per year which SLC did during calendar year 2005.
With the numbers that Seattle has, why can't SEA-TAC get more international flights than YVR which is less than three hours up the road? SEA is a larger catchment area and a bigger city?
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
eva777sea
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:12 pm

I did not say that SLC wouldn't pass it.
 
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:15 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 139):
With the numbers that Seattle has, why can't SEA-TAC get more international flights than YVR which is less than three hours up the road? SEA is a larger catchment area and a bigger city?

Maybe SEA has a lot higher fees? I'm not sure how much cheaper YVR is, if at all.
 
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting Chugach (Reply 137):
Am I missing something, or did somebody, somewhere on this thread, claim that Salt Lake City is going to take over Denver, Phoenix, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Seattle and become the largest O&D city in the west, simply because Delta MIGHT operate the biggest hub in the western United States in terms of destinations offered?



Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
More than United, the dominant airline in Denver, San Francisco or Los Angeles. More than US Airways in Phoenix or Las Vegas. More than Alaska Airlines at Seattle. More than any airline flying from any airport in the 11 states that comprise the western United States



Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 1):
DL serves the most destinations out of SLC if you exclude Great Lakes from UA's operations at DEN. UA serves 105 distinct destinations (with mainline/Theodore/SkyWest/Shuttle America/Mesa/GoJet/Trans States), but there are an additional 25 destinations which UA has it's flight number on that are flown with Great Lakes aircraft. If you include these flights in (which is of debate, since F9 has their codes on these same flights), then UA would have 130 destinations out of DEN.



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 12):
The biggest issue facing SLC and future DL growth is in relationship to the airport physical facility itself. If they really want service to Europe (CDG or LGW) they MUST upgrade one of their two runways from 12,000' to 15,000' to accommodate the 763s during hot summer weather here. And the terminal is another matter that gets me gnasher since coming in from SEA on Sunday my arriving 752 had to wait 15-20 minutes for gate D-3 to open!



Quoting SESGDL (Reply 38):
Are you talking about SLC? In the SLC metropolitan are there are over 1 million people, some say close to 2 million if you stretch it. Annually SLC yields some 10.5 million O&D passengers, which is a healthy percentage considering the airport handled 22.5 million passengers, that's a good 46/54 share of O&D to connecting passengers, better than most airline hubs in the US.



Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 76):
Agreed. SLC will be another DEN, in 15-20 years.



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 136):
The PHX-SLC comparison is similar to the one that took place a generation or two before with LAX and SFO. For a long time the world came to the west coast of the USA through SFO, and LAX was secondary, hard to believe nowadays.

...yes, there were several statments that appeared that way... Secondly, lots of statments appeared to create the illusion that SLC has as many flights as they do because of O/D. No doubt, for a city their size, they have a respectable O/D base. But my point is we are not going to be looking at LAX/SFO comparisons between PHX, LAS, and SLC in 20 years. SLC has done well because of Delta and connections. If Delta dried up, SLC would definately get more service from other carriers, but would likely return to service levels consistant with other smaller cities with maybe some extra flights to account for high O/D (in reality, unless WN really increased service, US, UA, and CO would just soak SLC with high fares).
The GoodDoctor
 
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:49 am

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 142):
unless WN really increased service

WN looks at situations just like this, which is why they are so big in PHX and LAS, why they have taken PIT, PHL and BWI by storm and why they own MDW. If DL somehow went away, I could see SLC in their top 10 destinations served for flights. It would just leave people like me hoping the San Diego experiment on assigned seating leads to the end of the "cattle-call!"
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:03 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 139):
With the numbers that Seattle has, why can't SEA-TAC get more international flights than YVR which is less than three hours up the road? SEA is a larger catchment area and a bigger city?

YVR has a significantly larger foreign-born population, if memory serves, and it happens to be Canada's gateway to the Pacific Rim. Moreover, the dominant hub carrier at SEA doesn't have aircraft capable of getting across the Pacific non-stop, and none of the other network carriers have a great interest in offering much trans-Pacific service from SEA without hub feed traffic to support it.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 45):
As of today, PHX has 188 WN arrivals while HP has 200 even. So it's fairly close, until one realizes that HP is now part of US Airways, which adds another 9 flights, and that Mesa flies under the America West brand, with another 102.

Actually, according to the most recent US Airways fact sheet, dated August, HP has 193 daily departures and US has 12 daily mainline departures from PHX. As of the most recent WN schedule, they offer 206 weekday departures from PHX -- so for mainline, WN has a slight edge, though in reality it is essentially a dead heat. HP+US leads in PHX for total passenger traffic but WN leads in O&D traffic.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 110):
Be careful what you ask for. One of the major reasons SLC is competitive as a hub is its CHEAP facilities. A new terminal or major would have negative impact on Delta's financial performance. The airport and Delta have worked very closely on this issue.

 checkmark 

Inexpensive hub facilities at SLC are a key reason why Delta can be cost-competitive with the hubs at DEN, in spite of a weaker O&D market. While the SkyWest/ASA operation at SLC has grown dramatically, there are fewer Delta mainline flights than there had been in the past. If Delta finds a need for additional mainline gates, it would be prudent to pursue a low-risk, low-cost expansion of the existing facilities.
 
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:03 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 143):
why they have taken PIT, PHL and

I wouldn't say they took PIT by storm. 20 daily flights is great, but it isn't taking anything!
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:13 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 144):
Actually, according to the most recent US Airways fact sheet, dated August, HP has 193 daily departures and US has 12 daily mainline departures from PHX. As of the most recent WN schedule, they offer 206 weekday departures from PHX -- so for mainline, WN has a slight edge, though in reality it is essentially a dead heat. HP+US leads in PHX for total passenger traffic but WN leads in O&D traffic.

I was indeed looking at arrivals, which may slightly differ from departure numbers. However, I'd rather stick with my numbers, which I came by reading Flytecomm which is, so far, the most exact measure of arrivals I've seen on a day-by-day basis, than the ones on my own airline's fact sheet.
 
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:32 pm

Given the prevalence of larger and larger express aircraft, including 86-seat jets, I think it's quite misleading to exclude the 116 daily US Airways Express departures at Phoenix from the count. Yes, they're smaller aircraft, but those smaller aircraft help US penetrate markets like GJT, MRY and ICT that WN won't touch in a thousand years.

There are 321 daily US Airways system departures from PHX, more than 100 more than WN, serving 96 destinations - more than doubling the 41 cities that WN serves.
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
 
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:37 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 144):
YVR has a significantly larger foreign-born population, if memory serves, and it happens to be Canada's gateway to the Pacific Rim. Moreover, the dominant hub carrier at SEA doesn't have aircraft capable of getting across the Pacific non-stop, and none of the other network carriers have a great interest in offering much trans-Pacific service from SEA without hub feed traffic to support it.

What is very interesting is how the populations of the two cities use each others airports for the service elsewhere that suits their needs. People in B.C. who need to get somewhere else in the U.S. just head down I-5 to SEA-TAC, and similarly people in the Puget Sound Area who want a good Asian flight at a good price head up through Peace Arch to YVR. So it is a trade-off, people from north of the 49th getting around all of the extra fees associated with a trans-border flight (along with the lack of competition, YVR-SLC is at least $300 more than SEA-SLC), and people from the American side looking for a better variety of flights to the Far East. I guess you could say YVR is Canada's version of LAX, and it is second to LAX on the west coast (US/Canada combined) for international traffic (US flights however might be the difference in giving it the edge for 2nd place over SFO).
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
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RE: DL Turns SLC Into West's Largest Hub

Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:22 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 144):
HP+US leads in PHX for total passenger traffic but WN leads in O&D traffic.

The difference being connecting traffic for HP+US, whereas WN is more of a linear point to point service so their O&D numbers will always be higher.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 144):
Inexpensive hub facilities at SLC are a key reason why Delta can be cost-competitive with the hubs at DEN, in spite of a weaker O&D market. While the SkyWest/ASA operation at SLC has grown dramatically, there are fewer Delta mainline flights than there had been in the past. If Delta finds a need for additional mainline gates, it would be prudent to pursue a low-risk, low-cost expansion of the existing facilities.

There are some minor improvements going on right now to improve the baggage claim area. Keep in mind the current SLC terminal was built to handle only 10-15 million passengers per year and just the minimum of that is now O&D. I've also heard of some talk of extending the D concourse so planes don't have to wait for a gate. Even with a few less mainline flights, SLC is still hampered with gate gridlock. Take a look at how the E concourse has grown in just a very short period of time. The economy parking are is also being expanded significantly,
SLC from above


[Edited 2006-08-18 07:23:49]
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!

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