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A342
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A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:27 am

Air Deccan: A380 Perfect Airplane (by Columba Aug 15 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Based on this discussion, I thought the following: If Airbus could combine the A380 fuselage with the A346 wing and slab the engines of the 748i on it, they could produce an A380 which is well adapted to short-range ops.

As the A380 fuselage is wider and the A346 wing smaller, a new central wingbox is needed. Still, wingspan would be below 65m. The A346 wing can support a MTOW of 380 tonnes. Empty, the normal A380 weighs about 280 tonnes. With the A346 wing, maybe the weight will get down to 265 tonnes. Also, Al-Li alloys and a lighter landing gear can be used. The A380 max. payload is about 85 tonnes, leaving 30 tonnes for fuel. This should be enough for domestic flights in Japan or India.
The more powerful engines of the 748i will compensate for the increased drag of the A380 fuselage (compared to the A346). Fuel burn would be significantly less than on the normal A380.

What do you guys think ?
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
ksupilot
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:36 am

This may be a good idea for areas with a high population density. But then again, wouldn't something like the 787-3 or -8 be better for these areas, still large, but deffinatly less expensive to buy and operate.
So I think if the situation calls for something as large as a A380 on a domestic route, the airlines are more likely to look to the 787 or the A350XWB.
 
A342
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 1):
But then again, wouldn't something like the 787-3 or -8 be better for these areas, still large, but deffinatly less expensive to buy and operate.

What capacity would the 783 have in an all-Y layout, at max. seating density ? I guess maybe a little bit more than the 763, which makes about 360-370 seats. The A388 can accommodate 853. As the engines are in the same thrust ballpark, the A38D should have a similar CASM.

The list prices of 2 783s vs. one A38D should be comparable.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
gigneil
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:01 am

I don't believe that there is sufficient market demand for such an aircraft. The 744D and 747SR sold in very low numbers to pretty much only the Japanese market, and they're now flying 772s and 773s on those same routes.

The modifications you suggested would be extremely expensive.

NS
 
zvezda
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:03 am

There are neither enough airports nor enough routes to accomodate it.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:08 am

I have no evidence for this, Ive never been able to find anything in print, but when the Airbus Research Labs opened up near me (Bristol, UK) they had on local news an Airbus rep talking about the A380.

One of the throwaway comments he made was that the A380 wing was designed with a two engine version of the A380 in mind for high capacity shorthaul flights, in a similiar way that the A330 wing is an A340-300 wing with the outer engine mounts removed. No other details were discussed, but that stuck in my mind.

Imagine a 700 seater commuter aircraft doing the rounds between Paris, London, Amsterdam.
 
A342
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:12 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 4):
There are neither enough airports nor enough routes to accomodate it.

Regarding the airports, it is shorter than a 773 and the wingspan is comparable to a 744, so where is the problem ?

[Edited 2006-08-16 22:13:29]
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
787engineer
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:28 am

Quoting A342 (Thread starter):
Based on this discussion, I thought the following: If Airbus could combine the A380 fuselage with the A346 wing and slab the engines of the 748i on it, they could produce an A380 which is well adapted to short-range ops.

Way over simplification. Commercial airplanes are designed largely as a whole, you can't simply put a A346 wing on an A380 fuselage. The wingbox is an issue, but there's also balance issues, and the entire center section and the sections directly forward and aft of the wing will see a significant amount of redesign work. Which brings to mind what's going to happen with the main landing gear? You can make a lighter landing gear but it will likely have to position differently than on the A346 due to the wider fuselage of the A380. The wing will end up having to be redesgined to accomodate the wider stance of the MLG. The A346 wing is designed for fairly long routes, and putting it on an A380 will not make it suitable for short-range flights.

For most domestic flights there are planes leaving all the time (i.e. once every hour or two and usually with 737s/A320s and the occasional widebody at peak hours) so upgrading to 2 787/A350 will be better than having one A380. For international, long distance flights most of the planes leave within a small window of a few hours and increasing capacity can be difficult.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 3):

The modifications you suggested would be extremely expensive.



Quoting A342 (Reply 6):
Regarding the airports, it is shorter than a 773 and the wingspan is comparable to a 744, so where is the problem ?

Most airports need to be modified to accomodate the width of the A380, not the length or weight. Most taxiways will have to be widened from 100 feet to 150 feet. IIRC the A380's wingspan is about 50 feet longer than the 744s

[Edited 2006-08-16 22:31:08]
 
A342
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:32 am

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 7):
Most airports need to be modified to accomodate the width of the A380

I know that, and that's why I mentioned that the wingspan is almost the same as the 744 !
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
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Stitch
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:37 am

I imagine you wouldn't want to lighten the undercarriage of an A380D since it would be subjected to significantly more landing cycles then her long-haul sisters. Plus more of the structure would probably need to be strengthened, as well, to handle the additional takeoff/landing/pressurization cycles.

If a 787-3 is too small for your needs, the 773A should be a perfect fit and I am sure you can get a good deal from Boeing.  Wink And a 787-3 can service a good deal more airports - and be less of an impact on the infrastructure - then the A380D/747D/773A. Plus frequency would probably be a boon more then capacity to these emerging markets, since traffic will probably ramp up over time.
 
787engineer
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:40 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 8):
I know that, and that's why I mentioned that the wingspan is almost the same as the 744 !

~50 ft. is a pretty significant difference not to mention on the A380 the engines are further outboard so there's FOD considerations and concerns of blowing up a lot of dirt/dust (erosion).
 
axio
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 5):
Imagine a 700 seater commuter aircraft doing the rounds between Paris, London, Amsterdam.

I think you'd want minimum 4 airbridges for getting on and off, otherwise you'd spend longer waiting to get off the plane that you'd spend in the air!

[Edited 2006-08-16 22:42:06]
Time for a new viewing deck at AKL!
 
RichardPrice
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:43 am

Quoting Axio (Reply 11):
I think you'd want minimum 4 airbridges for getting on and off, otherwise you'd spend longer waiting to get off the plane that you'd spend in the air!

They did it in 78 seconds just the other month, and I know commuters can move faaaaaast  Smile
 
A342
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 10):
~50 ft. is a pretty significant difference not to mention on the A380 the engines are further outboard so there's FOD considerations and concerns of blowing up a lot of dirt/dust (erosion).

Again: with the A346's wing, the A380 wingspan is similar to the 744. Not with the original wing, of course !
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:51 am

Immagine a 747-400 with 2 GE 90-115B's.........
One Nation Under God
 
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Stitch
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 14):
Immagine a 747-400 with 2 GE 90-115B's.........

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/photos/big/00005184.jpg
 
ebbuk
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:33 am

You know the plane could take off.

Perfect for to lure Boeing loving Southwest and Ryannair over to the Airbus camp.

Train in the sky using LCC economic model? Cost it up A342, it's got money-maker written all over it

 Smile
 
MrChips
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:11 am

I'm sorry, but this idea is so ridiculous that it borders the absurd.

Aircraft are not LEGO sets; you cannot just pull huge components and structures off one and slap them on another...it just doesn't work like that.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 3):
The modifications you suggested would be extremely expensive.

It would probably be so expensive to develop this aircraft that it would be cheaper just to design and build one purposefully for the job - and it would probably perform much better as well.
Time...to un-pimp...ze auto!
 
cobra27
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:54 pm

It would cost a lot to do it. The current wing is better in my opinion
 
sk909
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:42 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 12):
and I know commuters can move faaaaaast

Yeah baby...  Smile

Well, theoretically, it would be plausible. A A380, with slightly shorter wings and 2 engines. The problem at hand is the max landing weight. So sending the A380 a diet, making it loose 30-50 tonnes, and we have a deal.  Smile
Life's for Living!
 
Aither
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:14 pm

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 1):
This may be a good idea for areas with a high population density. But then again, wouldn't something like the 787-3 or -8 be better for these areas, still large, but deffinatly less expensive to buy and operate.

A Cessna would be even less expensive to operate.
Never trust the obvious
 
Robbie86
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:06 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 2):
The A388 can accommodate 853

But it has only been approved for 555 pax (I think it was 555).
 
cobra27
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:14 pm

The ultimate A380 would be strech - 900 for domestic use. It would pack at least 1100 passenger and the ticket would be really low even at current oil prices
 
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solnabo
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:03 pm

I can see EasyJet / Ryanair go for the -900 with 1100 pax from Gatwick/Luton to Paris - Rome - Barcelona etc. etc.

OMFG!!!!

Micke//SWE  rotfl 
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
brendows
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:07 pm

Quoting Robbie86 (Reply 24):
But it has only been approved for 555 pax (I think it was 555).

Wrong, it passed the evac test with 853 pax + 20 crew members on top of that. 555 pax is Airbus' standard seat config for the A380.
 
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Coal
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting MrChips (Reply 17):
Aircraft are not LEGO sets

Legoguy seems to think differently

Coal
Nxt Flts: SQ SIN-KIX | HD UKB-CTS | NH CTS-NRT | SQ NRT-SIN | AK SIN-DPS-SIN
 
deputydawghere
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 2):
The A388 can accommodate 853.

Definitely would not want to be sitting on one of these flights, or should I say standing.
N/A
 
sk909
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:15 pm

Quoting Deputydawghere (Reply 26):
Quoting A342 (Reply 2):
The A388 can accommodate 853.

Well that's a lot of people. I am glad that I don't have to sit with all those people.

I like jet with 130-170 PAX. That is just perfect.
Life's for Living!
 
deputydawghere
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:06 am

Quoting SK909 (Reply 27):
Quoting Deputydawghere (Reply 26):
Quoting A342 (Reply 2):
The A388 can accommodate 853.

Well that's a lot of people. I am glad that I don't have to sit with all those people.

I like jet with 130-170 PAX. That is just perfect.

130-170 is a good number. Can you imagine trying to get off a plane in an emergency situation with 853 passengers on board? Airbus is a kick ass company though and I'm sure they've thought that potential situation out thoroughly.
N/A
 
A342
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting Deputydawghere (Reply 28):
Can you imagine trying to get off a plane in an emergency situation with 853 passengers on board? Airbus is a kick ass company though and I'm sure they've thought that potential situation out thoroughly.

See here:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 12):
They did it in 78 seconds just the other month
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
deputydawghere
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:40 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 29):
See here:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 12):
They did it in 78 seconds just the other month

Maybe you (A342) should read my post about Airbus before your last post, "Airbus is a kick ass company though and I'm sure they've thought that potential situation out thoroughly."
N/A
 
787engineer
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:14 am

Quoting SK909 (Reply 19):
Well, theoretically, it would be plausible. A A380, with slightly shorter wings and 2 engines. The problem at hand is the max landing weight. So sending the A380 a diet, making it loose 30-50 tonnes, and we have a deal. Smile

I don't think there will be much of a problem with the max landing weight. A smaller short range wing will make the plane a little lighter, and I think A342 is suggesting the plane use 4x GenX engines. The A346 wing though is still designed for "long-range" and won't be very efficient on short hops. The extra weight to strenghten the plane for the increased number of cycles, more pax facilities etc, would probably cancel out most of the savings of the lighter, smaller wing. Just my  twocents 
 
HKGKaiTak
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:25 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 5):
Imagine a 700 seater commuter aircraft doing the rounds between Paris, London, Amsterdam.

What's wrong with Thalys and Eurostar? They already carry this number of pax between those cities at high speed ... and unless you have 15 airbridges it would take forever to get 700 pax on and off an aircraft ...
4 Engines 4 LongHaul
 
A342
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting Deputydawghere (Reply 30):
Maybe you (A342) should read my post about Airbus before your last post, "Airbus is a kick ass company though and I'm sure they've thought that potential situation out thoroughly."

I had already read your post when I made mine ! I just wanted to say: They did not only think about the situation, but also successfully verified their thoughts in that case.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
deputydawghere
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RE: A380Domestic With A346 Wings + 748i Engines?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:32 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 33):
I had already read your post when I made mine ! I just wanted to say: They did not only think about the situation, but also successfully verified their thoughts in that case.

Everyone's well aware of Airbus' successful evacuation test, it's old news.
N/A

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