I want to propose that all NRSA be embargoed permanently globally in F and C class. These seats need to be used only to generate revenues.

I have seen staff sipping Champaign while hi-rev pax are sitting in the back after paying $3,500 for their Y seat. Not a smart move, but a great way to kill loyalty.

Personally, I purchased two tickets at $2200 each to go to my mothers funeral and was laughed at when humbly requesting an upgrade. Do you think I will ever pay my own $$$$$ to fly on that wonderful customer service oriented airline? And yes they had been presented a copy of the death certificate.

That airline had the opportunity to gain loyalty at a difficult period, instead they chose to kill it.

Oh no he didn't......

Be prepared to open a can of worms on this....

Personally I am in two minds about such things. When I fly longhaul it is usually J and sometimes F and personally I'm not bothered by staff in the front cabins unless the service I receive is hindered by their presence. If it takes twenty minutes to receive a drink because the FA is chatting with staff or I don't get my first choice of meal because it is being given to staff then I'll not be too thrilled. Usually though that never happens.

I do think discretion needs to be observed by those when in front cabins though. I was on a UA flight (IAD-LHR) earlier in the year and was in front row of C on the 767 with a view directly into First Class. Of the 9 seats in the cabin two or three were taken by crew, one had crew tags the others were given a rather warm welcome by the purser and asked some questions in FA/crew/airline personnel jargon. Bearing in mind there was a strong possibility that those within earshot could have paid almost $10,000 for their seats it isn't good form. Then again I've paid for a seat in the cabin and the appropriate service. If I want control of the whole cabin I can always venture into Netjets territory.

I think the following lines will come up somewhere from other posters:
1) Seats given to NRSAs are those that otherwise wouldn't have been sold or given to FFs.
2) With all the cutbacks it is one of the few benefits left to staff.
3) Those staff are rarely confirmed in F, they could have equally received a seat in the back of Y, or even left on the ground.

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter): I have seen staff sipping Champaign

Is that anything like you champagne?  

Personally in your case I don't think buying an expensive Y ticket is a good enough reason to get upgraded, nor is travelling to a funeral. When you pay a lot for a Y seat you are paying through the nose for flexibility and not an upgrade (unless that is a stated benefit of your FFP).

I've travelled longhaul at the last minute, paid a lot of money for a Y seat (when I had J booked for travel a week later) and cut my holiday short for a family emergency and frankly I was happy to just be on a plane and getting home. I'd have been equally stressed out and upset in F, J, Y or a G550.

All I can say to this is a big "WHATEVER!" Our companies have just about taken everthing else away and now you think we don't deserve the "SLIM" chance of F travel. Get a grip and relax, however I regret your loss.

For one thing...that will never happen. Its a reward from the airlines for most staff to work for wages lower than a normal business whould pay. It keeps the staff working, the same staff that have to put up with ATC delays, A-Hole FF passengers, passengers yelling and screaming at them because THEY overpacked their bags and the "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM" passengers who think they are alot better than everyone else.

Most staff get little time off to use these benefits, and when they do.. .the airline rewards them for the hard work and loyalty to the company. Yes the passenger who pays $$$ for the coach ticket is an important passenger...but if they passenger wanted First or Business....he or she should have paid for First or Business.

Alot of staff would quit if that ever happened... then you still wont get First or Business class because there will be no staff to board YOUR plane, load YOUR plane, cater YOUR plane, or push out YOUR plane.

Chris

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter): I have seen staff sipping Champaign while hi-rev pax are sitting in the back after paying $3,500 for their Y seat. Not a smart move, but a great way to kill loyalty. Personally, I purchased two tickets at $2200 each to go to my mothers funeral and was laughed at when humbly requesting an upgrade. Do you think I will ever pay my own $$$$$ to fly on that wonderful customer service oriented airline? And yes they had been presented a copy of the death certificate. That airline had the opportunity to gain loyalty at a difficult period,

And that is the problem.

When staff are upgrade, they never expect it, and they know that although they are flying first this time, they may not even get on the flight next time.

When someone who is buying a full fare economy ticket is upgraded, they seem to expect to be upgraded that time, and each subsequent time.

I have come to this conclusion from my own experiences (I have been upgrade both on a staff and full fare ticket- when staff I thought nothing of it, when on another airline I was dissappointed that the next time I flew with them I wasn't upgraded)- and from talking to other people about the matter.

You seem to think that just because you have suffered the loss of your mother you deserve an upgrade. Why? At a time like this, surly you should be thinking of other things and people, and not the materialistic thought of an upgrade. I know if I lost my mother, and had to travel by air, the last thing I would be thinking about is whether or not I get an upgrade. Furthermore, if you are that desperate for an upgrade, why not buy a business class ticket, and if like most of us here, you can't afford one, or don't want to pay that much for a flight, sit in economy and stop moaning.

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter): I want to propose that all NRSA be embargoed permanently globally in F and C class.

Request denied. Next?

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 5): When staff are upgrade, they never expect it, and they know that although they are flying first this time, they may not even get on the flight next time. When someone who is buying a full fare economy ticket is upgraded, they seem to expect to be upgraded that time, and each subsequent time.

Precisely - the exception becomes an expectation, and an unrealistic one at that. This entitlement attitude seldom exists among employees when it comes to F/C travel.

Most every single company in any industry offers their own employees special perks related to the company's business - an airline employee sitting in F or C is no different. Perhaps we should propose that all employee discounts and perks are banned in every single industry. Did you ever consider that happy workers means happy customers? I'd hate to see the result if all/any perks for airline employees were stripped away. I'm sure glad I don't work for you. Until you actually work for an airline, you really have no right to complain about this small perk. NRSA travelers are dressed nicely, know how to behave on an aircraft and are sitting in a free seat that would have gone empty. These sound like the famous words of an I-think-I'm-better-than-you-because-I'm-in-First-class passenger. Buy F-class if you want to fly in F or work for an airline. It's really that simple.

If you want to sit in F, it's simple - either ante up the money, the miles or fly enough to be an elite member of a frequent flyer program. Personally, I loathe when people can walk up to the gate and ask to be upgraded because someone died, it's someone's birthday, it's someone's honeymoon, etc. - I spend thousands of dollars on my travel each year to earn my elite status to sit up front. If I see a revenue passenger getting upgraded just for the heck of it, then it's a devaluation of my benefits - why should I spend all my travel money on one or two airlines gaining status with them just for the shot of upgrades (in the process of which I spend probably an extra $1000-1500 a year over taking the lowest fare).

As for NRSAs in premium cabins, I have no problem with it as long as all revenue passengers that have legitimate ways of getting into a premium cabin (elites, miles, whipping out the Visa card and saying I want to be upgraded) are taken care of. If there's a NRSA is there before an elite, that's a problem. But if all elites are upgraded, all the passengers that want to do an upgrade-at-the-gate program (like DL's at the gate), then I have no problem with it. The amount of stuff airline staff deals with should get them some little compensation, especially in the days of paycuts. As long as NRSAs don't adversly affect the experience for revenue passengers (letting them take first crack at meals, keeping it quiet, etc. - it's never been a problem for me though), I have no problem with it.

Hello? Do you even understand what the "SA" part means?

That means "Space Available". They are seats that were not sold to anyone else! That is why they were available! If Coach was full, but the seats empty in First class, you suggest that the nrsa's have to sit by and watch the plane push back from the terminal?

Not going to happen.

HAL

I know at least one airline, often rated as best airline in the World, that does not allow staff travel in F except high ranked staff. No susprise they are the best in the World and make lots of money  

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):

Not many customers understand NRSA travel. I suggest that you dont make assumptions. I've worked at the same carrier almost 25 years now, you think I shouldn't get F and C class? Please........spare the bullshit.

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter): I want to propose that all NRSA be embargoed permanently globally in F and C class

Are you nuts?

I got op-upped for the first time ever last month on a UAX/SkyWest CRJ-700 flight, thanks to my US Platinum status. Does that mean that I should now expect an op-up on every flight and whine and bitch if I don't get one?  

If you ask for something you haven't paid for and get it, treasure it as a stroke of luck. Don't expect it as a matter of course.

[Edited 2006-08-18 00:19:54]

Bill,


You need to get off of the crack pipe. It is one of the benefits that we enjoy. Especially those of us who make almost no money to get a little perk. Sorry pal, but I am not going to sit and watch a plane leave that has an empty F/C/J cabin. And there are some airlines that make staff pay for travel. So in a way we are a revenue generator for the company regadless of what you think. Also on an international flight the cargo in the belly pays the bills, not you in your bulkhead Y seat.



Sean

NRSA = Non Revenue SPACE AVAILABLE.

Let's just leave at that, eh Bill?  

It's one of the few benefits they have left. They stand a small chance of making it into C/F. And with all the stuff they go through, they completely deserve this opportunity.

As for requesting an upgrade when your mother just died, and being upset by that---no comment.

CXA

Quoting ExRUAgentatDAL (Reply 4):

Good on ya, so true. I have travelled not alot, but got economy, then was VERY surprised as another member will tell you when we got club on a outbound to YYZ, becasue the flight was full, and these seats were still available. We had missed the first one as it was full and spent a very borieng 6 hours in the airport waiting for the next flt.

We never know if we will get out, plans can change, one friend missed all 3 flts to yyz and had to go via somehwere else and buy a confirmed flt.

I dont care what seat i get, as long as i get to where i would like to go. I know its a benifit, and can be taken away at any point. I make sure im smart, polite. I dont ask for anything more then if in Y, and if i want something i have always gone to the crew, not called them.

If you bought a F or C ticket and got bumped to the back, or you had status/upgrade coupons/cash that should have gotten you a gate upgrade per that carrier's rules but didn't, you should call or write that carrier with your valid complaint.

But it sounds like you got exactly the flight and class of service you paid for and are just upset that you didn't get something free that you didn't pay for. What does that even have to do with NRSA travel? It's not like you would have been upgraded even if there were absolutely no one in F/C.

On a side note, unless it's staff traveling in uniform, how can you tell who's on an NRSA pass or not? It's not as though they have big "NONREV" stamps on their foreheads.

Oh man, I knew the second I read this thread that it was going to stir a lot of emotion. Here are my thoughts.

First off, let me say that I have been an airline employee in the past (up until last year). The opportunity to ride in C/F, especially on long hauls is absolutely one of the most treasured benefits. It's very difficult to get on any flights these days when traveling standby, but when you do and you get C/F, it's just a fantastic feeling. At the two airlines I've worked, you've had to pay to ride up front. Granted, it's a nominal fee, but it's not as if it's even completely free.

In short, I think it would be a big mistake to take this perk away from airline employees. It helps build pride in the airline and it just plain makes employees happy.

Now, that's not to say I don't understand what you're saying, BillReid. When someone who paid a great deal of money to sit in coach sees a bunch of "staff sipping Champaign [sic]," it's bound to anger that person. And that's why it's extremely important for airline employees to exercise restraint when flying on their benefits.

I have too often seen employees chatting with flight attendants for a long period of time out in the open, detracting from the service they could be giving. I have also seen employees wearing their id badges around their necks and proudly displaying them as they travel. Worst of all, I've seen employees completely ignore the dress code and look like complete slobs while riding in the upper cabins. (This is also the fault of the gate agent for letting them on in the first place.) This is inexcusable.

An airline employee should blend in as much as possible. He/she should dress properly and act properly. If that means he/she is better behaved than the paying customers, even better! There's nothing wrong with a visit to talk about the company with the flight attendants if you're out of sight and there aren't other customer service duties that need to be completed at that time by those flight attendants. BUT, decorum is very important.

So, while I don't agree at all that coach customers should be upgraded simply because they paid a lot of money, I do agree that employees shouldn't make it known that they're employees when they fly on their benefits. If this always occurred, BillReid wouldn't have ever known that those F seats were given to employees.

Bill !

I agree with everyone here, I have been nonreving since I was 4 ! my Dad worked for UTA before I worked for Air France and I can tell you that it is not easy nonrev...
If you don't want to have nonrev's in premium classes go fly on any Asian airline you want, they don't upgrade any nonrevs !
You can't imagine how frustrating and boring it is to see a 747-400 with empty seats in J and F and you get stuck in NRT and can't go to Seoul ! Or the 12 hours I spent in EWR trying to get on any flights to florida... Or the night flight from CDG to JNB I tried to get on and was denied and had to go and sleep in our crew building on a chair in order to get on the Sabena daylight flight from BRU to JNB the next day !!!
But yes I was happy to get a business class seat on one of our flights to JNB and was the only one out of every nonrev to get it because I was the only one that was wearing a long sleeve shirt, a tie and a jacket !!! and guess what as always when I got to my seat I was the ONLY one in that attire all other revenue pax were in jeans, t shirt, shorts etc !!! They can wear what ever they want, its their own choice and I respect that but I always make an effort to be on my best behaviour etc... when the crew comes to me I always tell them that I'll eat what ever they have left over, that I don't mind being served after everyone ! and I do the same when I'm crew, I will serve every full fare customer before giving the choice to a nonrev !
Also, if I want to be sure to have a J class ticket on AF flights I fork out the money and get a nonrev J ticket which means that I didn't get any upgrade, I bought a space available ticket in J so i'm entitled to that seat !

I'm really sorry for your loss and would be beyond myself if it happened to me and I saw it happen to some of my colleagues while in flight or abroad and having to fly home in a middle seat in economy and guess what ??? they didn't ask for anything because all they could think of was their family member which they lost !!!

I hope you can understand that each industry has special benefits and this one is one of our last one and that I don't mind employees working for the electricity companies or phone companies to get free electricity or discount one etc...

Enjoy life and Happy Flying,

AF Cabin Crew

No No No No...Non rev are generally the LAST cleared for seats. F C and Y. If no one else is remaining that is willing to pay for an upgrade, then it is given to staff. So no revenue is really lost. They are remaining OPEN seats.

obviously you did not fly CO............if you pay a full Y fare for a trip, you are given Elite status for the day, falling in line behind the Elite members in order for an upgrade.

Bill, I notice in your profile that you are unemployed. Perhaps you might like to consider work in the airline industry? Perhaps as a gate agent? You may be surprised that everyone expects to sit in 1st class. Even the $49/one way pax. Sorry to read you lost your mother. But your entitlement mentality is hard to stomach.

[Edited 2006-08-18 01:21:56]

[Edited 2006-08-18 01:22:25]

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter): I want to propose that all NRSA be embargoed permanently globally in F and C class. These seats need to be used only to generate revenues.

And if there's no one to generate said revenue? Why should I, as an employee, who qualifies to sit up there, if properly attired, not be given that seat? CO is the company I work for, and one of the perks is flying free or for almost nothing. I work hard for this company, Bill, and I'm entitled, if it's there to sit in First of BizFirst.

I've earned that. And, if there's revenue, or another NRSA that goes before me, that's just the breaks.

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter): Personally, I purchased two tickets at $2200 each to go to my mothers funeral and was laughed at when humbly requesting an upgrade.

If they really laughed at you, that's not acceptable, but I would politely tell you that you either have to 1. pay the difference in far (if on an international flight), or 2. Have enough OnePass points to, in advance, get a positive space upgrade certificate.

Just because you paid a lot, does not entitle you to First Class.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 5): When someone who is buying a full fare economy ticket is upgraded, they seem to expect to be upgraded that time, and each subsequent time.

Thank you.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 6): Quoting BillReid (Thread starter): I want to propose that all NRSA be embargoed permanently globally in F and C class. Request denied. Next?

Thank you!

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 8): If you want to sit in F, it's simple - either ante up the money, the miles or fly enough to be an elite member of a frequent flyer program.

Thank you!   

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 21): bviously you did not fly CO............if you pay a full Y fare for a trip, you are given Elite status for the day, falling in line behind the Elite members in order for an upgrade.

EXCEPT in Biz First on international. You have to either pay the diff or have an upgrade before departure.

Bill, most companies, with any decent reputation, has some kind of perks for employees-in retail, employees get some kind of discount off merchandise or services; in the car industry, you get employee pricing, which, most times, can get you a car for a lot less than the average Joe; for us, it's traveling free or at a reduced rate, on our own carriers, and on a lot of other carriers worldwide.

So, don't sound like the dimwits over the years in Congress, who, out of a spit of jealousy, wanted to do what you want to do.

It's my company, and don't touch one of the few benefits I have left. Thank you.

No answer from the original poster that I can see so far.

May I suspect

troll

  

Bill -

When you worked, what kind of work did you do? What kind of perks did you have that, as folks not in your industry, we might not have been able to share or been entitled to? Perhaps you should not have been allowed some of those perks - what do you think?

When did an upgrade to a First or Business Class seat become the answer to all problems, the be all and end all? I'm sorry you were going to a funeral - that's not something I would wish on anyone. And when I was a CSR, and was working the gates, once I had accommodated all revenue upgrades, I on-loaded my NRSAs and then, if I still had open seats, and no meal issues, if I saw someone in your situation, or knew of a situation where there were newlyweds or a sweet elderly couple, I used to try and make someone's trip start off just a bit nicer, and do an upgrade. Nowadays, that's just not possible.

As for the ban in First and Business, at United, we had that for a while on the international flights - no employees in First Class, Business Class only, but no children allowed. Oh, and if you were a single person, like me, your parents could not fly unaccompanied in Business Class. Meanwhile, the Board of Directors - and their families, kids and all - could sit in First or Business, complimentary. Eventually, that changed, but its not something you forget.

Oh, as for the conduct, I don't recall hearing anything about non-revs in First Class getting up, dropping their drawers and doing their business on a service cart on a flight between EZE & JFK, to name one incident.

Now, let's get back to those pesky employees. You know - the ones that have taken massive pay and benefit cuts, that's if they're still employed and have not had to file for bankruptcy. Have watched while their carriers morph into companies they never even thought imaginable. The only perk these poor folks have, on those rare occasions when they can get on an airplane in coach, never mind First or Business, is the ability to get away from the hellish nightmare their daily routine has become. And on those once in one hundred years when there is a seat available in First or Business, you suggest taking away the one remaining pleasure they may have? And spare me the "if they don;t like it, they can go someplace else" line - where, as jobs are being increasingly outsourced, can or should they go?

I see that in your signature that you state "some people just don't get it - business is about making money". Well, that goes for the employees as well - they deserve to make money and they have rights to. And when they have been pretty much pillaged and plundered by the likes of Tilton & Co., why should they be asked to give this up as well - don't they deserve to have some nice things and a comfortable flight, once in a while? Besides, if you feel that strongly about business is about making money, then why didn't you just whip out your credit card and pay for the seats - if it was that important, you would have done it. I have - in many different situations.

Finally, and I'll end this epic here which, no doubt, will cause a massive flame, one of the things that changed at UA where passes was concerned, were the surcharges - once they were free, then, as things got bad, they introduced services charges which increased over time. It has gotten to the point in many cases, that its cheaper to buy a ticket on the internet than to fly "Space Available", which has become an oxymoron.

So next time you see an airline employee sitting and sipping some champagne, think about what they had to go through in their career just to get in that First or Business Class seat - and don't begrudge them. They've lost more than you can possibly imagine. And they don't need anyone suggesting that more be taken away - let them enjoy it - and peace - while they can. They've had had enough taken away. Deal?

Don

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter): I want to propose that all NRSA be embargoed permanently globally in F and C class.

Please. Take a chill pill. Give me a break......

Forgot to say something Bill...

I think this is the wrong website for your topic... If you wanted to get a positive answer to your question flyertalk is where you should have posted it ! There everybody would be on your side.

Happy Flying,

AF Cabin Crew

Bill, Bill, Bill........you set yourself up for this. You should know better, never, and I mean never talk about or suggest cutbacks in non-rev travel for airline employees here at a.net; its simply not done. NRSA travel, and the possibility of landing a seat in a premium cabin, is something that airline employees are simply unwilling to discuss. Many have taken pay cuts in recent years, other have seen their pension benefits fly out the window, others are working longer hours.....and, somehow, the airline employees have lived with those issues and keep on working, but dont even suggest messing with travel benefits. My suggestion is ask for the moderators to delete this thread, and run for cover!!

And, most a.net members (myself included) are not very sympathetic toward pax that ask for upgrades that they have not paid for or are otherwise entitled to.....those of us that fly a lot, and have premium elite status with our airline(s) of choice expect that those benefits be reserved for those who have earned them. Last minute travel, especially during the busy summer period, can be expensive, especially when travelling under difficult circumstances such as you were dealing with, but that does not and should not entitle you to complimentery upgrades. It does not work that way. (By the way, did you ask about berievement fares, airlines generally have special fares for pax that must travel at the last minute to due a death in the family.....well, its too late now anyway.)

Sorry to hear about your loss.

I guess I'll repeat what I have said before:

If a revenue passenger gets the service he/she has paid for, or the upgrade he has earned or paid for, it is absolutely non of his/her business who the airline chooses to put in the other seats. Period.

If another passenger on the flight is disruptive to his/her comfort on board, revenue or non-revenue then he/she has a legitimate complaint, which should be addressed to either the flight attendants or later, to management.

Just for the record. When my Grandmother in Germany died, my dad paid 2 full Y fares round-trip for he and my Mom to go to Frankfurt. They went and came back in Y. There was no question of asking for an upgrade.

My Dad passed away, when I was working in Amsterdam. CP Air gave me a space available pass to get home, and I was grateful. I guess some of you will love this: at that time, CP Air had a policy that no non-revenue employee, except management, was eligible for f-class. If there were seats in F, and Y was full, you stayed behind. That was strictly enforced at SPL, I don't know about other CP Air stations.
Anyway, the only way that I could get back from my Dad's funeral was to buy a ticket, so I could be at work on time. I paid full F fare, Y was full. The day I checked in, there were seats come available in Y, so I downgraded and requested a refund. No, nobody offered me a comp upgrade. Regardless of that, CP Air was a wonderful airline, and I still recommended it to everyone. If the issue of airline service comes down to whether you are upgraded or not, they I would say you need to set your priorities straight. Bill Reid, I have not seen your profile, but I would guess your age to be under 20?

I am sorry for anybody who loses a loved one. But when the main issue in the death is a comp upgrade to F-Class, I just think that is pretty sick and tasteless, not to mention extremely selfish. Perhaps there were others on the same flight(s) in the same situation, did it ever occur to you that other families have to deal with deaths involving international travel, too.

Some people don't get it. Business is about making money, and treating people with respect along the way. Respect yourself, or you will never respect others. Treat others as you would wish to be treated, and be happy for them when some good happens in their lives.

Cheers,
Carl (AY104)

[Edited 2006-08-18 03:02:14]

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter): and was laughed at when humbly requesting an upgrade. Do you think I will ever pay my own $$$$$ to fly on that wonderful customer service oriented airline?

i would laugh at you too.

how about you PAY to sit in the premium cabin. im so tired of ppl expecting upgrades...


first class is a way of life. not an upgrade. if you want to sit up there, pay for it. there are expensive Y fares for a reason... for every Y fare there is a W and S class fare (aka paying $12 to cross the atlantic) to "counteract" it. if the fare was so expensive, why didn't you just buy the F class fare...?

sitting up front is a perk of working in the business.... why do YOU deserve to fly up front when you didn't pay for it or rather have nothing to do with the company?

as your own signature says: "business is about making money"
airlines make loads off of premium passengers....
you want to sit there? PAY FOR IT.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32): Hey Dutchjet, as a FF, what is your view on NRSA travel, and employees up in FC/Biz?

While I'm clearly not Dutchjet, my view as an elite FFer on US and DL is that as long as the elites travelling on revenue tickets get first dibs, I'm fine with it, as long as the crew doesn't spend all their time with the NRSAs (which I've never seen happen). While I have problems with DL's policy of no day-of-departure international upgrades for revenue passengers, on a regular domestic flight (which is 99% of my travel), as long as elites get first dibs, then non-elites wishing to pay, it's fine. I've even had some good conversations with NRSAs...they make for good seatmates in my experience.

Seats on a flight are a perishable item; once the door is closed any empty seat is lost regardless of what cabin it is in.

NRSA travel for airline employees is becoming a lesser and lesser perk than it was when I worked in the industry not too many years ago. Flight cutbacks and fleet downgrades at many airlines plus higher load factors on airlines that are growing means that there are less and less chances for an employee to make it on a flight. There have always been cities that it was tough for non-revs to get on to flights for (Las Vegas, Hawaii, European cities during certain times of the year, Orlando [A lot of times easy to get there, hard to get out of.] just to name a few). The travel perks make the long hours in all kinds of weather almost seem worth it.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 10): I know at least one airline, often rated as best airline in the World, that does not allow staff travel in F except high ranked staff. No susprise they are the best in the World and make lots of money

When it comes to travel benefits, an airline that differentiates between its "high ranked staff" and everyone else is certainly not the best airline in the world.

Quoting N702ML (Reply 1): Oh no he didn't......

Oh yes he did. The OP obviously does not understand that this is sacred ground for airline employees. Here's a perk of NRSA travel that I recently experienced and which the OP might want to try out "just for fun": How about spending two days (12 hours per day) at LHR because the flight that was wide open suddenly canceled and all revenue passengers were re-accommodated to other flights while you waited at several gates throughout the day waiting to gratefully kiss the gate agent who would call your name and hand you a boarding pass with "39E" (on a 777) for a 9 hour flight. How 'bout all NRSAs starting a meal fund for a 60+ year old lady stuck at LHR for 4 days without a penny in her pocket? Oh, and that hotel and meal voucher you got---how about trying to find a hotel anywhere near LHR, on the hottest weekend in the UK in ages, only to be told by the airport hotel desk that a nice £400 room was waiting for you in Central London? And let's not forget about finally giving up (because on the third day, the check-in agent tells you that you're not getting on for days) and buying that one-way coach ticket for £500? Fun, eh?

Quoting UnitedNRT (Reply 11): I've worked at the same carrier almost 25 years now, you think I shouldn't get F and C class? Please........spare the bullshit.

So NRSA takes priority over revenue and I am not refering to the boarding priority. Please list the airlines that have not been in CH11 in the US? You don't get it. It is REVENUE versus NON-Revenue. CH11 vs. Profitability.

THE CORRECT QUESTION IS IF YOU CAN GENERATE ADDITIONAL REVENUE WITH A SEAT OR A RETURN CUSTOMER. The staff get paid by the revenue pax. Any seat with a nrsa person in it represents a financial loss to the Corp. I have flown over a million miles in NRSA seats, I just believe that the survival of the industry is more important than the comfort of staff. At the same time I do believe that alot of staff make a real MISCALCULATION, NRSA is not a benefit it is a privaledge.
My wife and I sometimes laugh at the bitter fools who work for an airline for peanuts and free tickets. If they got a different job then they wouldn't need the NRSA, they could buy the tickets outright. Thats why I don't work for an airline ...... NRSA is not worth anything...

Quoting LH417AF025 (Reply 33): how about you PAY to sit in the premium cabin. im so tired of ppl expecting upgrades...

Loyalty is something you don't understand. The airline is only in business to make money, what is more valuable to the airline a "bitter" employee or 20,000 more loyal customers???

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 30): (By the way, did you ask about berievement fares, airlines generally have special fares for pax that must travel at the last minute to due a death in the family.....well, its too late now anyway.)

Those are virtually all gone.

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 22): Bill, I notice in your profile that you are unemployed. Perhaps you might like to consider work in the airline industry?

I am no longer unemployed. I do travel over 130,000 miles per year and am an Elite-Plus with a SkyTeam airline. Unfortunately the trip was to Europe and I couldn't find last muinute availability on the airline I am Elite-plus with and therefore I had to fly on a partner.
The sad part is that I would not have flown that partner if I had not been Elite-Plus in the alliance.

What is truly bizar for me is the lack of understanding by some employees. Times are tough, NRSA is difficult at best, wages suck for many high stress positions with the public, BUT THAT IS NOT THE PROBLEM OF THE REV PAX.
Your challenge is HOW DO WE MAKE THIS AIRLINE MORE PROFITABLE?

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 10): I know at least one airline, often rated as best airline in the World, that does not allow staff travel in F except high ranked staff. No susprise they are the best in the World and make lots of money Smile

You get it, so do they!

This thread was put in to stir the pot.

Of course I know WE all like to sit up front, but the hidden question is whether it is smarter to use a seat to generate revenue or customer loyalty.

Personally all of you that have taken pay cuts or been furloughed consider this:
Would you give up F and C NRSA in return for a profitable company and your CY2000 salary?

Quoting BillReid (Reply 38): Would you give up F and C NRSA in return for a profitable company and your CY2000 salary?

Of course we would, but they're completely unrelated. As explained countless times before, NRSA upgrades are processed after any revenue pax available for upgrade. It literally costs the company nothing more to have the employee sit up front (except for food that would be thrown out anyway.) Also, I don't really see how customer loyalty would be effected. Most frequent flyers know that airline employees ride up front as a perk and most that I encounter are excited to talk to us about the industry and our jobs. I've never heard a negative comment from another pax about me sitting up front. (and if I did, I would immediately deem that person a prick and ingore them as I sip my champagne  )

[Edited 2006-08-18 06:20:25]

You're right, NRSA is not the problem of the revenue pax. No revenue pax are *ever* displaced by NRSA - it's SPACE AVAILABLE by definition.

Your complaint is completely misdirected. Why don't you ask the airline why they don't offer paid gate upgrades to Business Class? US Airways has a GoEnvoy and GoEnvoySleeper program which permits economy passengers to purchase space-available paid ($500/$300) upgrades to Envoy Class or the Envoy Class sleeper seats up to 30 hours before departure. These are processed long before any NRSA boards a plane.

It's not the NRSA's fault that the airline you chose to fly does not have such a system. Either fly another airline or go bitch at the airline's managers. Otherwise you're just trolling.

[Edited 2006-08-18 06:18:22]

Many people don't like to answer hard questions.
So as we all believe that NRSA is a benefit, should it be taxed like wages.

Last I looked, if the company gives me something that has any value on it I HAVE to add it to my tax forms.

I paid $2,200 for my economy seat this was post tax dollars meaning from an income standpoint at 28% federal we have about $3,000 of my hard earned income zapped.

Its what the Germans do they treat the seat as having a value.
Lets assume USA to FRA just add it to your W-2.
F class value $4,000 OW, Uncle Sam steals $1120 from you?
C class value $1,500 OW, Uncle Sam grabs $420 from you?
Y class value $500 OW, Uncle Sam only gets $75 from you?

Quoting BillReid (Reply 41): So as we all believe that NRSA is a benefit, should it be taxed like wages.

Last I checked, medical and dental were benefits, too. Do you pay taxes on those?

NRSAs pay all applicable federal taxes on their seats, including passenger facility charges and security fees. They also often pay nominal sums for their seat - for AA, according to this Web site, there's a $100 one-way charge for an F-cabin seat from ORD-LHR.

https://helpdesk.jetnet.aa.com/knowbase/root/public/jn1047.htm

This is all fun.
I have had so many employees complain about how terrible this industry is. My response go work somewhere else.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 40): Your complaint is completely misdirected. Why don't you ask the airline why they don't offer paid gate upgrades to Business Class? US Airways has a GoEnvoy and GoEnvoySleeper program which permits economy passengers to purchase space-available paid ($500/$300) upgrades to Envoy Class or the Envoy Class sleeper seats up to 30 hours before departure. These are processed long before any NRSA boards a plane.

Good program and good answer.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 40): No revenue pax are *ever* displaced by NRSA - it's SPACE AVAILABLE by definition.

Not true. My case proves the point.
In fact after all the upgrades were done there were still empty seats in the front on the return flight. Now remember I am Elite, and have presented a Death Certificate.
Do you think the Airline was wise at all?
The reality is that I spend about $40,000 annually year on year for tickets. I do alot of international travel. This was the first time that I was not in the front as a revenue pax in over five years of international flying. Why let that seat go MT on a high yield ticket elite pax??

Quoting BillReid (Reply 41): Many people don't like to answer hard questions. So as we all believe that NRSA is a benefit, should it be taxed like wages. Last I looked, if the company gives me something that has any value on it I HAVE to add it to my tax forms. I paid $2,200 for my economy seat this was post tax dollars meaning from an income standpoint at 28% federal we have about $3,000 of my hard earned income zapped. Its what the Germans do they treat the seat as having a value. Lets assume USA to FRA just add it to your W-2. F class value $4,000 OW, Uncle Sam steals $1120 from you? C class value $1,500 OW, Uncle Sam grabs $420 from you? Y class value $500 OW, Uncle Sam only gets $75 from you?

WTF??

I concur with Dutchjet, this thread needs to be locked down pretty quick, it certainly stinks of flame-bait and serves no purpose whatsoever...

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 42): Last I checked, medical and dental were benefits, too. Do you pay taxes on those?

Unless you lock in PRE-Tax dollars the answer is YES.

Thats why it is an income tax deduction.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 44): In fact after all the upgrades were done there were still empty seats in the front on the return flight.

If all of the upgrades were done, and there were still empty seats, then it was YOU, not them, that did something wrong. Also, I highly doubt that you've sat 'up front' as you say. First class, maybe, but not 'up front.'

Quoting BillReid (Reply 44): I have had so many employees complain about how terrible this industry is. My response go work somewhere else.

Try telling that to all of the IAM members at US and NW who would lose all of their hard-earned pensions over such a stupid manuever. (Granted, why they didn't use a third party 401(k) or IRA is beyond me.)

P.S.— Use the 'edit' button on the bottom right of your post if you want to add something of relevance to your previous post. It keeps the post count down.

[Edited 2006-08-18 06:54:09]

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 45): WTF?? I concur with Dutchjet, this thread needs to be locked down pretty quick, it certainly stinks of flame-bait and serves no purpose whatsoever...

I agree, Industry health serves no purpose.
I forgot your airline doesn't need pax, just you.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 44): In fact after all the upgrades were done there were still empty seats in the front on the return flight. Now remember I am Elite, and have presented a Death Certificate.

Seriously, why do you think the death certificate matters? Do you think the gate agent can just give out upgrades to people on pity? Either you pay for the upgrade with cash on an existing program, you burn miles, you provide an upgrade certificate, you get operationally-upgraded based on the needs of the airline (overbooking) - or you sit in the cabin you're ticketed for. Since the airline you flew had no gate upgrade program, you did not choose to use miles to upgrade, you did not present an upgrade certificate (if applicable to the airline in question) and you were not the recipient of an op-up... you sat in the seat you paid for. End of story.

Gate agents can be and have been fired for simply giving out free upgrades. Rest assured this kind of thing is audited and they can track it. What do you think the revenue department is going to think when they see the printout from the flight and discover that you were moved from Y to C for no apparent reason? Do you really think an agent's going to risk her job for you?

Seriously, if you fly as much as you say you do, you really should know all this stuff already.

[Edited 2006-08-18 07:07:43]

Quoting BillReid (Reply 44): Not true. My case proves the point.

Uh, it does no such thing. You were not displaced. You sat in the seat that you paid for in the cabin in which you were ticketed. The NRSAs sat in seats which they occupied based on the airline's space-available travel policy. Simple as that.

BillReid,

You are asking us if it is better to have a profitable airline or one with NRSA in Premium classes...

I'll give you my vision of the whole thing...
The carrier I work for, Air France was nearly dead in 1992/1993, it took 20 billions of French Francs to save the airline, during the restructuring of the airline and when the "le Printemps d'Air France" rebirth happened, a lot of decisions were made because the airline looked at why they were losing money, why the weren't earning any too...
One of the thing they noticed is that First Class and Business Class were full of nonrev and upgrades, no one actually bothered to pay the tickets. We were flying a premium product that no one ever paid for whether employees or revenue passengers.
One of the decision that Air France then managers took was to stop ANY kind of upgrades that weren't earned, meaning that those people who thought that buying a economy class ticket on AF in those days and knowing this or that person would ensure that they will fly in First, nothing less. Air France decided that we would concentrate on the customers that actually paid the product not the ones who thought they should get it.
So our plan was that we had to have First Class and Business Class passengers that paid for it, whether in money or in miles. Air France recognize its Elite customers by upgrading them when a flight is full because they should be the first persons in J or P no one else ! Yet, it is also our policy not to upgrade anyone if there is no absolute need to do so meaning if there are spare seats in Y and in J we will have each customers seat in the cabins they paid for. We will try to seat the Elite customers as best as possible in Y, meaning on the upper-deck on the 744 or get them aisle seats etc but we won't try to upgrade them everytime because we feel that customers wouldn't pay for the J or P ticket anymore if they know that they will get an upgrade everytime they fly with us and we would end up with P and J cabins full of upgrades.
We all understand that people flying in Economy Class are revenue and they should get the full recognition they deserve and I believe they get it. I'm a purser and I will always go thru the economy class cabins and greet every Elite Plus customers on my flights and will also acknowledge other skyTeam passengers whether Elite or not.
We should all understand that having an empty seat next to oneself is also a perk some business class passengers enjoy. It is enjoyable for the Premium Class customers to enjoy the attentive service they ought to get from the crew because the flight isn't so full. Why would we feel up a cabin with revenue or non-revenue pax when those who are already seated up there have forked out a good amount of money ??? Let them enjoy the SPACE because that's what Premium classes are all about... not the food, not the movies... the space !
I totally adhere to my company's policy and feel that we should pay to seat where we want whether nonrev or not ! That's why I pay for my nonrev business class tickets !

Happy Flying,

AF Cabin Crew

[Edited 2006-08-18 08:13:46]