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kanebear
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 12:06 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:08 pm

Quoting BillReid (Reply 37):
I am no longer unemployed. I do travel over 130,000 miles per year and am an Elite-Plus with a SkyTeam airline. Unfortunately the trip was to Europe and I couldn't find last muinute availability on the airline I am Elite-plus with and therefore I had to fly on a partner.
The sad part is that I would not have flown that partner if I had not been Elite-Plus in the alliance.

What is truly bizar for me is the lack of understanding by some employees. Times are tough, NRSA is difficult at best, wages suck for many high stress positions with the public, BUT THAT IS NOT THE PROBLEM OF THE REV PAX.
Your challenge is HOW DO WE MAKE THIS AIRLINE MORE PROFITABLE?

What are you on about?? Mr. $40k a year flyer; what routes do you fly?? $2200 to Europe isn't even full Y! What specific route was it anyway?

As for the death certificate red herring, it's the airline's job to verify that a death cert is valid so you can be more comfortable in an upgraded seat? Sorry, but death certs are all too easy to obtain and if it were THAT easy to get an upgrade, you'd see it happen a lot more often.

I spend more than you do on air in some years, less in others. I have ZERO issue with NRSAs in premium classes. I do have an issue if someone with the currency to upgrade (miles, money or certs) isn't permitted and THEN NRSAs are cleared to the front but the only airline I know that does this is CO with their asinine 72 hour rule. We know this isn't the case with you anyway as you said you were flying a partner airline. Gee, I sure don't expect BA to upgrade me for being an AA elite. I get my benefits (premium class checkin, lounge access, etc) and that's it. If I want the big seat I pay for it or cash in miles.

People at Microsoft get access to free software, I have access to free food as I'm in the food industry... it's one of the perks of working in the industry. If you don't like it, stop flying... and to all Skyteam-airline staff reading this, since you have this genius' full name, please monitor your manifests and make sure Mr Reid is treated accordingly when you see him. Yes, there's surely more than one Bill Reid who's an elite, but I'm guessing the attitude will give this one away.
 
unitednrt
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:43 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:19 pm

Quoting BillReid (Reply 37):

whats the point of trying to piss people off on this site?
"...That's a lovely name. My name's Milton; Milton Ettenheim, but my friends call me Bubbles."
 
HAL
Posts: 1773
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:38 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:20 pm

Quoting BillReid (Reply 37):
Your challenge is HOW DO WE MAKE THIS AIRLINE MORE PROFITABLE?

Simple. RAISE THE F#@*ING FARES!!!

The planes are full everywhere you go - there is no more room to put people, as this thread has already pointed out. If a product is in such demand, why are the fares so low? It's because the computerized 'yield management' systems the airlines use are still programmed from the days when there was normally a 60 or 70% load factor, not the nearly 90% we have today. They are deathly afraid of empty seats, even six months before the plane leaves the gate. They don't have the patience to keep higher fares in the system and wait for the other airlines to sell out, forcing the passengers to pay what it actually costs for their seat. Yes, the airlines have added small 'fuel surcharge' fees lately, but not nearly enough to cover the actual additional cost of higher fuel prices. Look at it this way; if the flight you want to travel on is sold out several months ahead of time, then the airline is not charging enough for the seats!

After 9/11 airline gurus said there needed to be a shakeout of the industry, removing seats from availability. That has happened. The other side of that coin has yet to be played out - increasing the fares because of reduced capacity.

To summarize - airlines today still panic if there's an empty seat long before the plane goes out. They are not using the old supply/demand formula to charge what the market will bear, and the additional cost is borne by the airline's employees. What a shame.

HAL

[Edited 2006-08-18 08:24:23]
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
LHR777
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:14 pm

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:16 pm

Guess what Bill Reid? I travel in J class as a subload or 'nonrev' passenger, and I also work for the worlds' most profitable airline. We fly staff in F and J and, shock, horror, we still make money! If you want to pay $3500 for a Y seat, then who's the fool?

[rant on]
Now piss off and leave us airline employees to our privileges and benefits that have nothing, absolutely NOTHING to do with you.
[/rant off]
 
Doona
Posts: 3382
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:43 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:12 pm

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):
And yes they had been presented a copy of the death certificate.

You used your mother's death certificate to try to get an upgrade? Isn't that something they send you to hell for?

Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
FutureFO
Posts: 2812
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:58 pm

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:03 pm

Moderators please lock this post as it is purely flamebait.



Sean
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
billreid
Topic Author
Posts: 761
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:04 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:28 pm

As a consumer I would expect a service industry to say
"The Customer Comes First".
What happened to "the customer is King"?

Those of you who don't believe this should leave this industry. Those of you tired of customers asking for upgrades should leave the industry. It is part of the business whether we like it or not.

We should be ashamed.

I asked a simple question. Is my $2,200 as a FF worth more than your $10 as an employee. Many chose the $10. One guy hushed at the $30,000 I spend on tickets. Is he for real?

This thread attacked the soul of our dimished service industry.

WHY DID NOBODY SAY "WHATEVER IT TAKES TO MAKE MY AIRLINE THE BEST AIRLINE IN THE WORLD"?

I have sent letters to Congress asking for protection against lost pay and pensions for airline employees. I support higher revenues and better compensation. So think long and hard about attacking revenue pax asking for an upgrade. They pay your salary, support your business and emphasize with you.

I AGREE THIS THREAD SHOULD BE CLOSED.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
CXA330300
Posts: 1318
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 5:51 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:30 pm

How does one make a "Respected Losers" list? I have someone to add.....

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 58):
Moderators please lock this post as it is purely flamebait.

Concurred.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 51):
You are asking us if it is better to have a profitable airline or one with NRSA in Premium classes..

Most profitable airlines allow NRSA in the pointy end............if the non-rev can get there, or on the plane at all.
Home airport now: DCA/IAD
 
OHLHD
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:02 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:08 am

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):
want to propose that all NRSA be embargoed permanently globally in F and C class. These seats need to be used only to generate revenues.

Proposal denied!

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):
I have seen staff sipping Champaign while hi-rev pax are sitting in the back after paying $3,500 for their Y seat

This is generating revenue!

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):
Personally, I purchased two tickets at $2200 each to go to my mothers funeral and was laughed at when humbly requesting an upgrade

If you want to sit upfront,....pay for it!
Although your mother´s death, this no reason why somebody should be upgraded. How many times do you think I or other airline staff had heard this about dead people in the family. No offense here against you.

Even if you present the certificate.

I must admit i was was upgraded 7 times while non-reving and believe me or not....I never received anykind of C-Class food. Just one time a lousy sandwich Big grin

And by the way, in April while I was waiting in GRU for anykind of seat, 6 planes left with C-Class seats available.
 
zsx81
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2000 11:46 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:36 am

What an idiot!

The message you were about to post is too short and probably not of any higher value to the topic at hand. You should think long and hard before posting a message in this forum and make it detailed and a valuable addition to the topic discussed.
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:43 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
Hey Dutchjet, as a FF, what is your view on NRSA travel, and employees up in FC/Biz?

As long as its done within the standard rules, its not my business or concern. If my upgrade would be bumped in favor of a NRSA employee, I guess that I would be upset, but that has NEVER EVER occurred in years of flying.

Honestly, I do understand Bill's point in the OP and do see the big picture, but its simply not the way the system works. The upgrade issue is always a tricky one and gets people upset.....that is why it must be done within the rules without exception.....so, again, I say, that as long as the rules are used correctly, if there are premium seats left over after all is said and done, why shouldnt the airline employees use them. And, many many times, I, a Platinum ELite for many years, was sitting in Y while employees were offered the J class seats. That being said, sometimes I think that the gate agents can be a bit more discreet about the whole NSRAs sitting upfront thing....sometimes its all done too obviously which can upset other pax.

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 53):
know that does this is CO with their asinine 72 hour rule

Did you know that the asinine 72 hour rule has been changed to the stupid 24 hour rule? It helps, but does not solve the associated problem.....if there is a noshow on a flight, the gate still cannot process your upgrade to J even if CO had already deducted the miles. It sucks.
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 37):

Excuse me you.

We all know its a bonus for working for a airline, and we ONLY get on if there is a seat left. If there happens to be a seat left, we get it. A pax does not get chucked off so we can get the seat. And why say i dont work for a airline, i love this industry, and i love the bonus i get. Cheap travel WITH THE knowlegde i may not get on. We all dont care where we sit, but if its J or F or with BA W im even more happy

I dont understand why ur annoyed (i would use another word there) You payed for Y and you get Y, if there is a seat left for us LOWLEY as you seem to say airline staff, we will get it, sometimes having waited 5 hours, or as a friend did 14 hours for a plane

Ypu bopund to get benifits in your job, how would you feel if people started complaining about them. Its what your doing here, and dont say i would not, casue im sure you would
Where does the time go???
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 59):
As a consumer I would expect a service industry to say
"The Customer Comes First".
What happened to "the customer is King"?

Does that mean the customer gets whatever they want? Does that mean because he doesn't like it, he shouldn't have to pay a change fee? Or an excess baggage fee; or he can just get a first class seat, even if he doesn't qualify for it, just because he wants it?

The Customer is the most important thing, but, whether you like it or not, there are certain rules, restrictions and guidelines the airline follow. And one of them, with the exception of elite members is if you pay for Y, you sit in Y. Doesn't matter if you paid $2200.00. You chose to do so. That's your choice. It doesn't mean you get a first class seat out of it.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 59):
I asked a simple question. Is my $2,200 as a FF worth more than your $10 as an employee. Many chose the $10. One guy hushed at the $30,000 I spend on tickets. Is he for real?

Let me ask you this: if that lowly employee wasn't there to get you checked in, or let you on the plane, or serve you onboard, or fly you safely to your destination, what would your FF be worth? Nothing.

Again, you chose to sit in Y. As an employee of CO, if I deceide to use a Vacation Pass for a trip, I pay nothing in coach or first, IF there is an extra seat, be it in coach, or in first, if there's no one else that QUALIFIES for an upgrade.

And simply sitting in Y, with an expensive fare, does not qualify you for an upgrade.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 59):
WHY DID NOBODY SAY "WHATEVER IT TAKES TO MAKE MY AIRLINE THE BEST AIRLINE IN THE WORLD"?

Look at it from this view: one of the things, I'm convinced, that makes an airline great and respected, is how it treats the average employee. We have a saying here at CO: "Dignity and Respect: It's how we fly, it's how we win."

And, part of that ARE the benefits we get here: free or discounted flying; free or discounted hotels and cruieses and all-inclusives. Whether you or anyone likes it or not, IT IS ONE OF OUR BENEFITS.

And, respectfully, I'll be damned if some yahoo who simply can't stand the fact that an employee who works for said airline can sit if first, takes such benefits away.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:50 am

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):
Personally, I purchased two tickets at $2200 each to go to my mothers funeral and was laughed at when humbly requesting an upgrade.

Allow me to add something constructive here, but first my condolences.

If you paid $2200 each for a domestic round-trip ticket and sat in coach, you bought the wrong kind of ticket. In nearly every market there is a YUP or QUP fare that books into First, which makes having to beg for an upgrade moot. It appears you merely bought the wrong type of ticket, which is not the fault of the airline.

Secondly, a company, such as an airline, has the right to treat their employees well if they so choose. I'm happy some choose to do so.  thumbsup 
International Homo of Mystery
 
sk601
Posts: 897
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:46 pm

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 59):
"the customer is King"?

Guess who's the QUEEN??  Big grin

From the thread starters point of view I understand his statement, however, like many others already said, you have the option to buy F-class and full-fare Y/elite or for whatever reason you NEED to travel doesn't entitle you an upgrade...

I'm airline staff and currently not so happy about the job, but the fact that I'm able to use the deeply discounted NRSA tickets keep me at the company at the moment!
 
sk736
Posts: 741
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:47 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:21 am

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):
And yes they had been presented a copy of the death certificate.

So what? Why should you get something you haven't paid for?
 
billreid
Topic Author
Posts: 761
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:04 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:28 am

LOL.

I have been an airline employee and flown NRSA and I am a rev-Elite customer now. I doubt that those arguing know what it is like to be a revenue customer and pay over $2,000 for a seat in economy or over $3,000 for a seat up front.

Most of you only see it from your point of view.
I hear alot it's about ME ME ME.

DutchJet is cool he sees both sides of the argument.

I hope you, that work for the airlines without empathy and understanding one day learn what Empathy is.
Those that don't see the other side of the argument ..... what do you do with people who can't listen and process ideas.

I say bump forward and give the staff all the NRSA their hearts desire, but in the back of the bus as they aren't contributing to the bottom line. I can not believe the number of you fighting to get your F/C seat for nothing when it could be used to build loyalty and generate long term revenues. I certainly hope some senior management reads this thread.



You gotta have respect for the Revenue PAX, who pay the bills and salaries of staff if you wish to sit with them. Or do you feel you are better than the revenue pax?
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
airbazar
Posts: 10252
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting Ualcsr (Reply 36):
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 10):
I know at least one airline, often rated as best airline in the World, that does not allow staff travel in F except high ranked staff. No susprise they are the best in the World and make lots of money

When it comes to travel benefits, an airline that differentiates between its "high ranked staff" and everyone else is certainly not the best airline in the world.

Why is that? It happens in every company in every industry. Does every one get a corner office? Does every one get to drive to work in a limo? No, usually only high ranked officials. Why should mere employees get to sit in First of Business class to the detriment of paying customers? There is no such thing as an available F or J seat unless the airline staff allowed that to happen. There are plenty of good customers sitting in Y who should be getting those seats instead of an airline employee, because those are the people who are going to keep coming back, and in return, will keep airline staff employed.
 
sk736
Posts: 741
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:47 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:33 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 69):
I say bump forward and give the staff all the NRSA their hearts desire, but in the back of the bus as they aren't contributing to the bottom line. I can not believe the number of you fighting to get your F/C seat for nothing when it could be used to build loyalty and generate long term revenues



Quoting BillReid (Reply 69):
I have been an airline employee and flown NRSA

Ah, it's all becoming clear now. You had no problem non-reving in First when you were an airline employee, it's only now that you have to pay that you have a problem. There's a very strong smell of sour grapes around here!
 
sk601
Posts: 897
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:46 pm

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:35 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 69):
learn what Empathy is.



Quoting BillReid (Reply 69):
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!

Some things doesn't always go together.
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:38 am

Mr reid, you say you worked for a airline, are you saying you would of been happy not to ever sit in another class than y if it was avail. Show me in this thread where someone has said IM CREW, I DESERVE TO SIT UP FRONT.

We all know its a bonus of working in the industry to fly on id90 or whatever. I dont care where i sit, as long as i get a seat, if its club, first woohoo. IO only get a seat when check in is closed, so there is no chance i have caused a pax to go without. Are you saying a person on a N class should be upgraded casue they will fly again, course they will, but saying "i want a upgrade"

Quoting BillReid (Reply 69):
but in the back of the bus as they aren't contributing to the bottom line

This line, well its making my blood boil. Id swear if i was allowed.
If were not CONTRIBUTING, then there woul;d be no point flying as the staff would not be helping you, there would not be helpful staff on the end of a phone giving you all teh help they can, there would not be helpful checkin and ticket desk staff. WE ALL WORK HARD to give the passenger as best possable an experience with the airline as we can. We dont get alot of time to travel as we work hard, its fun to sit in another cabin and see the service first hand.

HOW can you say that line!!!!!!!!!!!!!


(p.s where did you go for nearly £1500 per person on a domestic flt in y)

[Edited 2006-08-18 21:39:06]
Where does the time go???
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 69):
I doubt that those arguing know what it is like to be a revenue customer and pay over $2,000 for a seat in economy or over $3,000 for a seat up front.

Yes, I do, which is why I brought up the YUP/QUP fares you decided to ignore before continuing on with your rant.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 69):
ME ME ME.

You said it!
International Homo of Mystery
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:03 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 69):
I have been an airline employee and flown NRSA and I am a rev-Elite customer now. I doubt that those arguing know what it is like to be a revenue customer and pay over $2,000 for a seat in economy or over $3,000 for a seat up front.

It's your money, dude. If you want to pay that, fine. If you want to pay 2 grand to sit in the back, fine. If you choose to pay 3 grand to sit up front. But when you sit in Y, expect to stay in Y. Again, my benefit is I'm able to sit up front if it's available, even if your 2 grand seat doesn't qualify.

If you think I'm going to apologize for that, you're mistaken. I won't. It's part of the deal when you become an airline employee. You were one yourself, you say. Did you ever turn down that seat when you were NRSA? I doubt it.

But now that you have $$$, and love to tell us you do, you expect me to, when I'm flying, not take an empty seat up front if it's available, and even if you don't qualify for it. Sorry. I'm taking that seat, with no remorse.  Smile

Quoting BillReid (Reply 69):
Most of you only see it from your point of view.
I hear alot it's about ME ME ME.

Look in the mirror, Bill: that's what this whole post is about-you. YOU want me to not be able to fly in F/C on MY CARRIER, because someone didn't let you upgrade. That's what it boils down to, Bill-YOU.

So, in essence it's pott-->kettle-->black.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 69):
hope you, that work for the airlines without empathy and understanding one day learn what Empathy is.

This isn't about empathy. It's about the fact if you pay for coach, and don't qualify for an upgrade, you sit in coach. It's about the fact that, as an employee of an airline, I have certain benefits that you do not-IF a seat is available.

That's what it is about, Bill.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 69):
Those that don't see the other side of the argument ..... what do you do with people who can't listen and process ideas

What's there to see, Bill: you wanted something you weren't entitled to, and you're pissed that I AM entitled to that seat if it's availabe. That gnaws you to no end.

And why do you care if an employee gets to travel n his/her carrier up front? I have earned it; most of my colleagues have earned it.

Your point of view is this: we aren't WORTH letting up front in F/C or Biz; we're just employees. And you simply want to put us in our place as someone who "pays or salary", and you want to hold that over us.

Our point of view: no deal.

There, now I've seen both points of view.  Big grin

Quoting BillReid (Reply 69):
I say bump forward and give the staff all the NRSA their hearts desire, but in the back of the bus as they aren't contributing to the bottom line.

We don't contribute to the bottom line, eh? We check you in; we let you through the jetway door, and make sure it pushes on time; we give you service on the aircraft; we fly you there safely; we get your bags there with you.

Everything we do, friend, contributes to the bottom line. Without us, there IS no bottom line for the airline. With out us, you don't get to bitch about sitting in coach; without us, and airline cannot make a profit.

The best asset a good airline has, in the end, is those that work for it. And the fact you don't see that-that you see us as kind of your court jesters tells me you don't get that fact.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 69):
You gotta have respect for the Revenue PAX

And YOU gotta have respect for those who get you where you want to go. You don't. You have this idea we're noting, that we should just do whatever you want, and that we don't deserve our benefit to sit up front.

Respect is earned, and, so far, you haven't earned it. All you do is flap dollar bills in our face, tell us how important you are, and how unimportant we are.

By the way, why did you leave the airlne industry?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:08 am

If I'm not mistaken, isn't a pilot commuting to a trip REQUIRED to sit in First on some airlines? (United specifically comes to mind here) Or have I gone so crazy that the local nuthouse is around the corner from my house waiting for me to hit "Post The Message" so they have their excuse to pick me up?
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
FutureFO
Posts: 2812
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:58 pm

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:16 am

Pilots and F/A's are not required to sit in F on a commute. UA lists employee Positive Space, and then are placed on a PSUG list or in the pilots contract, they have the Positive Space built in to F. I commute and get a seat wherever there is one. However when going international it is nice to get F or C.



I still call for the moderators to close this thread down.




Sean
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
HAL
Posts: 1773
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:38 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:20 am

In my years in the airline business I have found that the majority of people non-reving are pilots commuting from their home to their base.

Because of the way airlines operate, it is rare for a pilot to stay in one base for more than a few years; bases open and close, different aircraft types come and go, and pilots move up the seniority list. Any one of these can cause a pilot's base to change. Unless the person likes uprooting their family every few years, a lot of pilots commute. This is allowed by the airlines, and most have commuter clauses written into their contracts stating how a pilot must try to get to work before the airline releases them (if they can't make it in).

We do not try and usurp a paying passenger from their seat - in fact that is impossible. We are just using whatever means possible to get to work so we can do our job. If Mr. Reid sees us as "champagne sipping abusers", then he is most greatly mistaken.

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 76):
If I'm not mistaken, isn't a pilot commuting to a trip REQUIRED to sit in First on some airlines?

That would only be if the commute is an actual part of the trip. i.e. Crew Scheduling is sending the pilot to another city to pick up a trip where another pilot may have become sick. At the airlines I have flown for it has been FC if available, otherwise coach. I don't know of any airline that requires a FC seat. The only exception is on flights that are longer than 8 hours, and an extra pilot (or two) must be carried. In that case, yes, most airlines require an FC seat for the pilots who are not on duty at the moment.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
FutureFO
Posts: 2812
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:58 pm

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:23 am

Quoting HAL (Reply 78):
That would only be if the commute is an actual part of the trip. i.e. Crew Scheduling is sending the pilot to another city to pick up a trip where another pilot may have become sick. At the airlines I have flown for it has been FC if available, otherwise coach. I don't know of any airline that requires a FC seat. The only exception is on flights that are longer than 8 hours, and an extra pilot (or two) must be carried. In that case, yes, most airlines require an FC seat for the pilots who are not on duty at the moment.

A pilot in that case would be deadheading. It is still considered on duty. Also international flights are required to carry extra pilots. The extra usually comes into the F cabin after the a/c has reached cruise. At that point it is like a 2-3 hour rest and then rotation with the other pilots.



Sean
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
LHUSA
Posts: 829
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:15 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:27 am

Bill,

Be sure to share your thoughts on this with the gate agent next time you fly and I'm sure you will get a free upgrade! Once your on the plane in F, sitting next to an airline exec, also be sure to let him know your feelings on how his airline could make more money by denying NRSA pax in premium cabins- you might get hired on the spot!

[Edited 2006-08-18 22:45:19]
 
B747-4U3
Posts: 617
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2002 8:08 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 77):
I still call for the moderators to close this thread down.

I second that.

Bill Reid started this post with a childish rant which has since moved on to him making assumptions based on a lack of knowledge and understanding and misguided opinions.
 
utapao
Posts: 546
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:19 pm

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:50 am

Quote:
it certainly stinks of flame-bait and serves no purpose whatsoever...
Moderators please lock this post as it is purely flamebait
I still call for the moderators to close this thread down

BillReid,reply=59] --I AGREE THIS THREAD SHOULD BE CLOSED.

This poster sounds a lot like, and has many of the same characteristics of several past members who jump in, stir up things for a while, then fade away...only to appear some time later, jump in, stir things up, and fade away...only to....

What I never quite understand is why 75+ adults get into pissing contests about what someone says. There will be no winner. This original post would already be on Page 3 and history if people quit going for the bait. (I have now done by damage by replying, and apologize for that.) 90+% of the members understand both sides of the argument, and if this went to 1000 replies no one would change their mind. CERTAINLY the OP...

From Wikipedia:

Quote:
Flamebait is a message posted to a public Internet discussion group, .....with the intent of provoking an angry response (a "flame") or argument over a topic the troll often has no real interest in.

There are various motives or explanations for this behavior. The most popular is the desire for attention and the desire for entertainment at the expense of others. Posted flamebait can provide the posting party with a controlled trigger-and-response setting in which to engage in conflicts and indulge aggressive behavior anonymously, without facing the consequences those behaviors would certainly bring to bear in real life. In other instances, flamebait may be used to reduce a forum's use by angering forum users.
.....
The conclusion to a flamewar precipitated by flamebait is often determined by recourse to Godwin's Law.

Safe travels.

A Non-Revver
Sawasdee khrab!
 
billreid
Topic Author
Posts: 761
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:04 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting Travatl (Reply 28):
sweating it out trying to get on
flights that are so full, I've ended up buying
revenue tickets.

My heart bleeds for you. I hope it cost you $2,200 and you sat in row 134 in a middle seat with two three hundred pounders on both sides of you, and they hadn't showered for a decade.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 70):
Why is that? It happens in every company in every industry. Does every one get a corner office? Does every one get to drive to work in a limo? No, usually only high ranked officials. Why should mere employees get to sit in First of Business class to the detriment of paying customers? There is no such thing as an available F or J seat unless the airline staff allowed that to happen. There are plenty of good customers sitting in Y who should be getting those seats instead of an airline employee, because those are the people who are going to keep coming back, and in return, will keep airline staff employed.

Thank you. You get it.

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 76):
If I'm not mistaken, isn't a pilot commuting to a trip REQUIRED to sit in First on some airlines? (United specifically comes to mind here) Or have I gone so crazy that the local nuthouse is around the corner from my house waiting for me to hit "Post The Message" so they have their excuse to pick me up?

Dead heads should be as far forward as possible. A commute is a choice issue and NRSA versus a P/S deadhead.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 75):
We don't contribute to the bottom line, eh?

Yes, you are a cost center. Only income goes to the bottom line.
Do you generate cash???? No. I have yet to see a gate agent with a cash drawer????
You are very nescesary, but you NEVER add to the bottom line.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:04 am

So does that mean i get to go in another cabin because i do sales???

Thats what your saying.
Im equal to any employe, be it baggage, to check in. We all work hard. EVERY job has a benifit, this is ours. Whats urs. Trust me u will be unhappy if people started having a a go at it
Where does the time go???
 
dc10s4ever
Posts: 700
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:46 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:12 am

BillReid-
You point is not very valid, infact it could undermine your entire customer loyalty program. Why should we give away FREE upgrades to people who are not even elite level, that will surley piss off your Executive Plats!. Bottom line, after all those who are willing to PAY for an upgrade, non revs are then accomodated. If you want First PAY for it. Infact when we work our standby list and if we only have First Class left and you are a DRX (revenue COACH standby) and we have Non Revs, they will get the remaining First Class seat ahead of you. If is a benefit/perk of our job.
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:20 am

This thread is controversial........but I think that is the point.

There is one interesting issue that is being raised:

Should airlines ""auction off"" unused premium seats prior to departure?

--after everyone has checked in.
--after everyone who is entitled to an upgrade is issued an upgrade.
--after all operational issues are dealt with.

Should the airline look at their remaining investory of F and J seats and offer them to pax at discounted rates? The result would be increased revenue on the short term, but would pax revolt by never actually buying premium class tickets since they would think that they could pick up a cheap upgrade prior to departure? I do NOT think that this would be a good idea, for a variety of reasons, but it has been proposed by airlines, analysts, and passengers.

If such a program would work, its would also probably kill any hope of airline employees getting a premium seat on a NRSA basis.
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:23 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 86):

Not a good idea. People queing for em, then there gone, bad mood time. Why did he get it and not me etc etc etc. Where would it get done, at the gate, there would need to be a tckt desk there then.
Where does the time go???
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting Trekster (Reply 87):

Not a good idea. People queing for em, then there gone, bad mood time. Why did he get it and not me etc etc etc. Where would it get done, at the gate, there would need to be a tckt desk there then.

I agree, I do think it would be a bad idea......but it gets suggested from time to time in various ways.
 
starrion
Posts: 1024
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 1:19 pm

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:48 am

I think part of this dispute goes to a very simple point. Airlines have gone out of their way to make flying in coach class a miserable experience. The "if we take one olive out of the olive jar no one will notice" school of bean counters have taken it too far.

People want a reasonable amount of space, some beverages, and a snack on short flights, a meal on longer flights. They want the plane to leave on-time, and they don't want their bags lost. Most people are willing to pay a reasonable price for tickets as long as someone doesn't pop up and brag "I got these seats on ultrasupercheaptickets.com for 10% of what you paid!"

They don't want to spend $8,000 to fly round trip BOS-LAX.

The airlines have reponded with massively decreased legroom. Eliminated meals, eliminated snacks (but now are bringing them back), and generally crammed coach with as many seats as will fit, holding out the first class seats if you want to pay four times as much to get good service. It's really no wonder that people get so tense and quick to anger when denied upgrades.

On time service is still pretty good.

Put valuables in your checked luggage and you won't have them on the other end.(Thanks TSA!) I heard about requiring laptops and Ipods to be checked because of the scare and thought of all the new electronics coming to a flea market near you soon......

Jetblue and what used to be Song offered the middle ground of decent coach service with low prices. Jetblue has done amazingly well. Delta mainline coach service simply isn't as good as on Song.
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:56 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 83):
My heart bleeds for you. I hope it cost you $2,200 and you sat in row 134 in a middle seat with two three hundred pounders on both sides of you, and they hadn't showered for a decade.

This, from someone who DEMANDS empathy from us, but himself is void of any; and from someone who demands respect from us, and who himself has no respect for airline employees.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 83):
You are very nescesary, but you NEVER add to the bottom line.

Again, without us, there is no bottom line.

You didn't learn much in the industry, did you?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:01 am

Quoting Starrion (Reply 89):
People want a reasonable amount of space, some beverages, and a snack on short flights, a meal on longer flights.

You get those on CO, by the way.

But a few things.

You want more space? Be prepared to pay more, not less, as you'll be taking away revenue from the carriers by having less seats.

As for a snack, there should be nothing on flights under 2 hours; a small snack on flights under 3; and over 3, a meal if it's the appropriate time of day, or otherwise snacks served.

That's my view.

And that's the problem with many flyers: you want everything, but want the airlines to charge next to nothing for it.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
utapao
Posts: 546
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:19 pm

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:14 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 86):
Should airlines ""auction off"" unused premium seats prior to departure?

At the ticket counter on my last three departures from LGW on AA had a notice that upgrades from Y to C or C to F were available for 250 Pounds, I believe.

To me, that was a great idea. Airlines had the opportunity for last-minute revenue, passengers had an opportunity, etc. If you have the cash and want to guarantee yourself moving up and not depending on last minute, it is an opportunity to pay... similar to some of the carriers kiosk upgrades in the US, I guess.
Sawasdee khrab!
 
FCYTravis
Posts: 1172
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:21 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:19 am

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 60):
Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 51):You are asking us if it is better to have a profitable airline or one with NRSA in Premium classes..

I didn't say that  Smile
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
 
LHR777
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:14 pm

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:02 am

Bill, why are you so inconsistent in your posts? Some examples:

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):
Personally, I purchased two tickets at $2200 each to go to my mothers funeral and was laughed at when humbly requesting an upgrade. Do you think I will ever pay my own $$$$$ to fly on that wonderful customer service oriented airline? And yes they had been presented a copy of the death certificate.

Ok, so here you're saying that you'd be loyal to the carrier involved, *if* they offered you an upgrade. Guess what Bill? It doesn't work like that!

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):
That airline had the opportunity to gain loyalty at a difficult period, instead they chose to kill it.



Quoting BillReid (Reply 37):
I do travel over 130,000 miles per year and am an Elite-Plus with a SkyTeam airline. Unfortunately the trip was to Europe and I couldn't find last muinute availability on the airline I am Elite-plus with and therefore I had to fly on a partner.
The sad part is that I would not have flown that partner if I had not been Elite-Plus in the alliance.

So, basically, you're contradicting yourself here, by stating in reply 1 that the airline would have gained your loyalty, had they upgraded you.

Then, in reply 37, you're saying that the airline wasn't the airline you normally fly, and you wouldn't have flown them anyway without being Elite-Plus, so in theory, you would NOT be loyal to this carrier anyway! In the end, you got what you paid for, the airline delivered the service you had purchased. Nothing more, nothing less.

Consider this - if you're upgraded from Y to J, then you're enjoying J class service for the price of Y class. So, you're getting something you have not paid for, and are thus denying the airline revenue. Surely that goes against everything you stand for, doesn't it, Bill?

I'm a former AA EXP (around 250,000 miles per year) and now work for an airline. I spent many years purchasing my tickets in all three classes, and earning my mileage and elite status. I've sat next to non-revs in all three classes and had very interesting conversations with some of them. They're not idiots, or "bitter fools" or whatever else you and your wife like to call them. They're decent, intelligent folk, doing a job they enjoy and enjoying their benefits.

Sort your inconsistencies out Bill, then come and fly with us. Don't worry, all the non-revs on the carrier I work for are in the back of the bus. But then again, so are you. Come and see me, I'll take good care of you.....  Wink
 
LH417AF025
Posts: 181
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:56 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:05 am

Quoting Travatl (Reply 28):
P.S. Blow Me.

that is f'ing great. welcome to my resp. users list.
 
LH417AF025
Posts: 181
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:56 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:07 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 37):
Loyalty is something you don't understand

and loyalty in the airline business is something YOU obviously don't understand.

if somone is deemed a loyal customer they will get upgrades, when they are needed. they are not just handed out because you want one.

if you are THAT loyal, you should have the miles to use for an upgrade.
 
DeltaGuy
Posts: 3965
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 5:25 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:15 am

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):
I want to propose that all NRSA be embargoed permanently globally in F and C class. These seats need to be used only to generate revenues.

Why don't you go kill yourself. I'd rather see a hard working airline employee up there than a coach-class customer who paid peanuts for his fare. The NRSA benefits, especially the chance of FC, is one of the last perks we airline folks have left to cling on to. If all the coach pax paid Y fares, who's to say is more deserving of a front seat?

If you want a damn front seat, pay for it or work for the airline...foolish unemployed poster. Nice 0 RR.  thumbsdown 

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:30 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 97):
I'd rather see a hard working airline employee up there than a coach-class customer who paid peanuts for his fare. The NRSA benefits, especially the chance of FC, is one of the last perks we airline folks have left to cling on to.

And you fell right into Bill Reids trap.......this is what he wanted someone to say, that airline employees believe they are entitled to sit up front and should get seats up front over paying customers. This entire thread is controversial, he set it up that way, but your (understandable) reaction can be used to prove his point. While your position is correct, the tone sends the wrong message.

NRSA is a perc.....and experienced travellers know that airline employees only get on the plane if there is space available, and will only get a premium seat if one remains after all of the upgrades, FFs, etc have been accommodated. Gate agents are careful about this, they have their jobs to defend and think about after all. As I said above, sometimes even though everyone is exactly following the rules, things are not handled discreetly, which can piss off paying pax......having a gate agent escort her "friends" out of coach into first after everyone has boarded, for example, while all of the other passengers (including the elites) watch is not very cool.

Upgrades, upgrades, upgrades, everybody wants them and no one wants to pay for them.
 
billreid
Topic Author
Posts: 761
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:04 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 97):
Why don't you go kill yourself. I'd rather see a hard working airline employee up there than a coach-class customer who paid peanuts for his fare. The NRSA benefits, especially the chance of FC, is one of the last perks we airline folks have left to cling on to. If all the coach pax paid Y fares, who's to say is more deserving of a front seat?

What an ass. If you were a TRUE Delta guy You would know that a Elite-Plus/Platinum always gets upgraded on domestic by status, and on International Delta issues six Platinum Upgrade certificates. regardless of fare inventory even L, U, or T fares on DL get upgraded at no charge. Yes a $23 fare ALWAYS gets upgraded if the pax is PLATINUM. Go visit Delta.Com and Continental.Com and NWA.com and read!!!!!!

I win. You are trapped. Checkmate. You proved my point. You just shamed every good airline employee working in the industry, every good NRSA'er. You proved why no employee should ever be in the front of the tin can.
THANK YOU!!!!!!!
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
billreid
Topic Author
Posts: 761
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:04 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:47 am

Quoting LH417AF025 (Reply 96):
if somone is deemed a loyal customer they will get upgrades, when they are needed. they are not just handed out because you want one.

You quite obviously don't understand alliances. Do YOU????
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:56 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 99):
I win

How do you win, Bill? There isn't a worldwide embargo on peons like me sitting up front, is there; there isn't a rule that says we have to upgrade arrogant people like you, because you demand it, do we?

Seems what galls you is that WE, the airline employee wins in this discussion, not you.

Stuff that one in your seatback pocket, will you?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
MesaMXORD
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:05 am

RE: Global Nrsa Embargo In F And C

Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:04 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 69):
I say bump forward and give the staff all the NRSA their hearts desire, but in the back of the bus as they aren't contributing to the bottom line. I can not believe the number of you fighting to get your F/C seat for nothing when it could be used to build loyalty and generate long term revenues. I certainly hope some senior

So how do you envision picking which Y class people to grab for an upgrade to build loyalty? (EX: 777 flight with 200 some Y pax on board?)
MESA - fighting common sense one day at a time

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