Economy Class Citizens

padraighaz · Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:22 am

While I'm sure the airlines could figure a way to do it anyways, it irritates me to see 2 lines for TSA screening, 1 for 1st class passengers, the other for the teeming millions.

Why does the TSA, an agent of the federal government, treat citizens differently just because some can spend more with vendors? If they truly had the citizens' best interests at heart, they would insist all be treated equally. but then and again, perhaps some are more equal than others...

Padraig Houlahan
Flagstaff, AZ Sad

IFEMaster · Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:25 am

In fairness, first class passengers aren't treated differently - they are still subject to the same searches - but they have paid extra to be able to go straight to the head of the line. It's like asking why does a First Class passenger get a nicer seat and tastier food. Because they paid for it.

SNATH · Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:23 am

It doesn't only happen in the US. At FRA, for example, there are separate security lines too.

Tony

Starlionblue · Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:27 am

Quoting Padraighaz (Thread starter):
Why does the TSA, an agent of the federal government, treat citizens differently just because some can spend more with vendors? If they truly had the citizens' best interests at heart, they would insist all be treated equally. but then and again, perhaps some are more equal than others...

As IFEMaster says, the treatment is the same. The wait is just shorter.

The fast lane pax paid more. This is just one of the perks. Apart from the actual rich, you have plenty of business travelers who fly a lot. As one of those, I would tell you that the fast lane is a huge time saver if you fly 2-3 times a week. Nice perk which keeps me coming back to the airline that awards me status.

And it's not like the fast lane security dudes work any less. If the fast lane is empty, they take some normal lane pax. So it's not a waste of money.

Quoting SNATH (Reply 2):
It doesn't only happen in the US. At FRA, for example, there are separate security lines too.

And LHR and so forth.

[Edited 2006-08-18 19:30:15]

roseflyer · Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting Padraighaz (Thread starter):
Why does the TSA, an agent of the federal government, treat citizens differently just because some can spend more with vendors? If they truly had the citizens' best interests at heart, they would insist all be treated equally. but then and again, perhaps some are more equal than others...

The TSA doesn't care that the passengers pay more. It is the airline itself that pays more to allow people to use an express lane. At some airports, only the top tier frequent flyers will be given fast track security and not even first class passengers, but at others anyone that has status or is in first class can go ahead. It all depends on the airline and how much it is paying. It is not true that all first class passengers can go through fast track security. There is usually a sign that says who is allowed to go and who is not.

PanAm747 · Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:36 am

One of the big reasons is the business travellers who travel all the time and know what to do to get through the line quickly!!

As a coach-only flyer, I have no problem with others going through security quicker that have paid for it. I only wish that in my lines I knew how to avoid getting behind someone who has NO clue what to do. I know exactly what to expect, I remove everything ahead of time, wait until my belongings are in the x-ray machine, and then go through. No problems. But some people? Oy...have they been living in a cave? "Whaddya mean metal sets this thing off?"

MCOflyer · Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:36 am

I haven't seen it @ MCO. I have seen that Fly Clear @ Orlando.

MCOflyer

lredlefsen · Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 3):
The fast lane pax paid more. ... And LHR and so forth.

Exactly!

In fact, some UK airports have the "Fastrack" system, where I believe anyone willing to pay the extra fee can get into the fast lane. It's great!

Try this thought experiment: suppose *everyone* buys Fastrack passes -- one would hope that the Fastrack lanes would see increased staffing. After all, it's not the taxpayer that's paying for them, it's the pax. That way, everyone moves more quickly, at a cost.

If only a portion of pax are willing to buy the passes, those not willing to buy them still benefit: the guy who was going to stand in line in front of you has now moved into another line -- the one he and his buddies are paying for... Yes, his is moving faster, but so is yours.

Your wait is actually *shortened*, and it's all paid for by those other guys.

How great is that?

TinkerBelle · Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:44 am

Like everybody says, it's not different treatment and TSA could care less. If you spend a $hitload, you might as well clear security faster. At teh same time, most pple if First class these days don't even pay for it. Non revs or frequent flyers.

dtwclipper · Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:50 am

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 8):
At teh same time, most pple if First class these days don't even pay for it. Non revs or frequent flyers.

Most of the traffic in the fast lines are elite members, regardless of their class of service.

As a matter of fact, most of my weekly trips are on regional jets w/o first (save for the occasional Avro to CVG).

I do pay a full Y, B, or F fare, so, it is a great perk that helps the biz pax get through the airport.

We know what to do at security, we're ready, and breeze through. I hate to say it but it's the once a year fliers that slow things down.

Starlionblue · Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:51 am

Quoting Lredlefsen (Reply 7):

In fact, some UK airports have the "Fastrack" system, where I believe anyone willing to pay the extra fee can get into the fast lane. It's great!

Try this thought experiment: suppose *everyone* buys Fastrack passes -- one would hope that the Fastrack lanes would see increased staffing. After all, it's not the taxpayer that's paying for them, it's the pax. That way, everyone moves more quickly, at a cost.

If only a portion of pax are willing to buy the passes, those not willing to buy them still benefit: the guy who was going to stand in line in front of you has now moved into another line -- the one he and his buddies are paying for... Yes, his is moving faster, but so is yours.

AFAIK there are no passes you can buy. You get to use the Fast Lane if you are Biz or First and if you have lots of status with the airline. In Europe the rule of thumb is that if you can get into the lounge you may use the fast lane.

roseflyer · Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:53 am

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 8):
At teh same time, most pple if First class these days don't even pay for it. Non revs or frequent flyers.

Actually I have noticed a lot more reasonable first class fares. With LCCs offering first class at reasonable rates, some of the majors are as well. In the 90s, first class was usually 5 times the price of economy, but I would say that on most routes you can usually find an airline in first class at well below $1000. Discounted first class fares make a lot of sense, and I've noticed changes in the last few years.

Brasuca · Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:57 am

So is the security (screening etc) in the US airports done by airlines?
If so, it's understandable to charge more for an exclusive service, but not the other way around, where all paxs pay the same airport tax.

SNATH · Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 11):
Actually I have noticed a lot more reasonable first class fares.

You're right, I was actually shocked to find out that you can get a fare of just over $1,000 for F class between BOS and SFO on both AA/UA. This was only 2.5x or so higher than the economy fare.

Tony

Starlionblue · Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 9):
I hate to say it but it's the once a year fliers that slow things down.

No kidding. Biz travelers tend to have larger carry-ons and they still move faster.

At LGA the other day I saw this guy have to walk through the arch 4 TIMES! What part of "all metal" did you not understand?!? And my favorite part is watching them get to the arch and THEN grab stuff out of their pockets. Sigh...

Then I wondered why they don't use the UK method. If someone blings the arch, they get hand searched. That way, the line is not blocked. Much better for everyone, and the hand search is more precise in any case.

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 8):
At teh same time, most pple if First class these days don't even pay for it. Non revs or frequent flyers.

In North America maybe. In Europe (and even US carrier international flights) upgrades are in no way guaranteed even if there is space.

Also, it's unfair to say "don't even pay for it". If you fly 100 000 miles a year your upgrades are most assuredly paid for.

SNATH · Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 14):
If someone blings the arch, they get hand searched.

I thought they did that in the US too... At least at BOS you're really encouraged not to set off the detector, otherwise you end up in the "sit down, take your shoes off, and get prepared to get hand searched" area.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 14):
If you fly 100 000 miles a year your upgrades are most assuredly paid for.

...says the Executive Platinum card holder. Wink

Hey, I'm kidding. duck

And you are right.

Tony

Starlionblue · Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:16 am

Quoting SNATH (Reply 15):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 14):
If someone blings the arch, they get hand searched.

I thought they did that in the US too... At least at BOS you're really encouraged not to set off the detector, otherwise you end up in the "sit down, take your shoes off, and get prepared to get hand searched" area.

I fly out of LGA and JFK a lot, and have never seen people taken aside for bleeping. Then again, the TSA agent tends to be leaning or sitting against something with a "I'm so bored moving my hand to wave people on is an effort" look on his/her face.

Quoting SNATH (Reply 15):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 14):
If you fly 100 000 miles a year your upgrades are most assuredly paid for.

...says the Executive Platinum card holder.

Yeees. And last year it was over 125k. Big grin

TinkerBelle · Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:29 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 14):
Also, it's unfair to say "don't even pay for it". If you fly 100 000 miles a year your upgrades are most assuredly paid for

You're absolutely right and I didn't mean it in a bad way.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 16):
Yeees. And last year it was over 125k.

I'll beat you to that this year.... biggrin

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 11):
Actually I have noticed a lot more reasonable first class fares.

You're right. Even international especially to Asia from the West coast you can get some really good first and business class fares. To Europe on the other hand, good luck.

roseflyer · Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:41 am

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 17):
You're right. Even international especially to Asia from the West coast you can get some really good first and business class fares. To Europe on the other hand, good luck.

I don't know about that. $3500 to LHR from ORD in business class on UA with a month's advance purchase is reasonable, and I booked that two weeks ago. First Class still is bad, but Business is reasonable.

I've also paid $400 roundtrip in first class between SEA and LAX recently as well on United. First class is a lot more affordable than it use to be and upgrades seem to be challenging to get at times. But it all depends on the market and where you are flying. Cheap first class tickets are out there, but not in huge quantities.

[Edited 2006-08-18 20:43:21]

Starlionblue · Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 18):
First class is a lot more affordable than it use to be and upgrades seem to be challenging to get at times.

I noticed that upgrades are easy if you are top tier. Like 70-80% of flights.. For the lower tiers it's very much a lottery and closer to 10-20%.

b777a340fan · Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:04 am

Quoting Padraighaz (Thread starter):
Why does the TSA, an agent of the federal government, treat citizens differently just because some can spend more with vendors? If they truly had the citizens' best interests at heart, they would insist all be treated equally. but then and again, perhaps some are more equal than others...

It is not a question of being fair or not... Although TSA agents perform the security screening, the airport is the one who handles where/when passengers go. That means, it is the airport's discretion to create two security checks area (one for 1st/biz passengers and the other for the rest). The TSA agents are then assigned to specific areas accordingly where no one is better than the other. Just because you're a 1st/biz passenger doesn't mean you get to bring a gun through security. People tend to forget that airports operate as businesses that want to stay profitable by maintaining their customers happy. Who are the customers? The airlines....who then attract passengers by offering convenience, amongst others. So if an airline attracts customers by designating a special security lane for their high-paying customers, they try to request it by airport authorities who then try to accomodate. I feel like I'm rambling on....but you get my point. rotfl

Starlionblue · Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:07 am

B777A380Fan (an A.nut contradiction in terms Wink

) says it well. The TSA dudes just check pax. They don't care what line you came to the checkpoint on.

TinkerBelle · Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 18):
I don't know about that. $3500 to LHR from ORD in business class on UA with a month's advance purchase is reasonable, and I booked that two weeks ago. First Class still is bad, but Business is reasonable.

I think First to Europe is quite expensive from anywhere in the US. I paid $2200 for business class (lie flat seats) SFO-MNL with 2 weeks advanced notive with OZ. Too bad they don't have first on their 777's though.

padraighaz · Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:47 am

I'm surprised by many of the responses here and I find the analysis quite bizarre. Why stop with 1st class tickets? Why not have dedicated lanes on the highway for expensive car owners - after all, they pay more taxes, or at least spend more, so therefore cities should want to attract them?

It is the airport authorities who appear to control the lines to security; why should they be playing favorites just because someone has has bought a more expensive ticket from a commercial entity? Should we now have separate lines at the DMV for wealthy people also? Separate phone numbers to EMS? The "if we don't treat da quality folks rite or dey mite go aways" arguments are hilarious.

Padraig Houlahan
Flagstaff, AZ

Gilligan · Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:16 am

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 23):
It is the airport authorities who appear to control the lines to security;

No, the stop before the TSA is controlled by the airlines. The people that initially check your ticket are not TSA employees. They are usually vendors to the airline, some security service or such. As stated above the TSA doesn't care which line you go through and if you look you'll usually see that once the F pax clear the ticket checkers they get funneled into the same line as everyone else, they just get to the head a lot more quickly. So it's not the TSA you should be questioning, it's the airline that sets up the lines outside of the TSA screening point. And as also stated above, the people going first class have, in most cases, paid more either right then or over time to get that treatment.

FLY2LIM · Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:47 am

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 1):
In fairness, first class passengers aren't treated differently - they are still subject to the same searches - but they have paid extra to be able to go straight to the head of the line. It's like asking why does a First Class passenger get a nicer seat and tastier food. Because they paid for it.

I am someone who is not a business traveler, and I never fly first class. Personally, I could care less if there's a line for elite passengers and another for the other mass. I am always prepared and try not to hold up the line.
That said, I think this argument is ridiculous. Yes, travelers who pay more are entitled to perks that the airline provides. However, the security screening is not part of the service the airline provides, it's paid equally by all travelers (via taxes, I suppose), and it's supposed to provide an equal level of security for all. Therefore, I don't believe that this is something that the airports should continue sponsoring. What would be next? Better bathrooms at airports, separate restaurants???? The argument doesn't make sense to me, and this year I will qualify for higher status for my airline, which will allow me to use the preferred line, so this is not a case of sour grapes. I don't believe that people who pay more can get perks provided by an airport, which is owned by a government entity.

FLY2LIM

utapao · Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:48 am

First of all, this is a fantasy and would never work... at least in America.

I personally think there should be THREE lines.

One for those who pay premium or fly so often they help subsidize the industry and the airline in question.

One for those who have a clue...who have flown before and know what they need to do. And that is now probably 75% of the flying public. But these are the people held back by the next group.

And.... not necessarily a bad thing for the other group... but a line for those who have never flown before. I have seen people try 3-4 times to get through the body scanner and be sent back over and over. They have no idea what to do... and as such are embarassed in front of frequent flyers or air junkies tapping their feet. My last international trip was a week ago. I was leaving early in the morning and there were not that many flights, so TSA was limited. I got behind a family of 4, and once we got to the station to put laptops, coins, etc., in various bins it took 6 minutes for that family to get through. I realize they paid for a ticket and have their rights...but this is where the FF gets frustrated.

So... while I have no idea how to state on a sign "If you have no clue get in this line"... THAT alone would speed up the processing.

The business traveler that does it 3-4 times a week would get through quickly.

The leisure-travel couple who goes on 3-4 trips a year would make it through. And the families with 8 kids but know the rules would blow on through.

But my neighbor who has never been on an airplane, wears a HUGE cowboy belt buckle, has steel tipped toes in his boots, etc., would not hold up the rest of us.

I'm sure there's a class discrimination suits lurking here somewhere... but it would work

Safe Flying!

Outlier · Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:38 pm

These class warfare rants are so bored

padraighaz · Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:10 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 24):
No, the stop before the TSA is controlled by the airlines.

This is not true in Phoenix.

Padraig Houlahan

soups · Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:23 pm

at LGW the fast track is used also by many economy class passengers, waiting in the queue i asked the officer checking the boarding pass (as i noticed many with seat numbers 34+) is this for business class only? he said no anyone can pass thru

malmoaviation · Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:53 am

Yesterday my Business ticket made me home to ARN from LHR. I only had 30mins untill the flight was departing. Fast check-in, three persons in the fast-track security line and so on. Sometimes it can be worth to pay extra, but only sometimes. (The service onboard was horrible.)

halls120 · Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:22 am

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 23):
I'm surprised by many of the responses here and I find the analysis quite bizarre. Why stop with 1st class tickets? Why not have dedicated lanes on the highway for expensive car owners - after all, they pay more taxes, or at least spend more, so therefore cities should want to attract them?

I hate to break the news to you, but while all men (and women) are created equal, life is not an egalitarian journey. People who are more talented than you and me make more money than we do, and have larger houses and more trinkets to go along with their wealth. That's fine with me. You seem a bit bitter about that. You seem to resent the fact that the airlines cater to their most important passengers, the ones that fly frequently and purchase the more expensive seats. I call it smart business on their part. For example, United just installed priority screening lines at Dulles. Which means I'm even more likely to fly UA to OAK next trip over B6, because that's a perk B6 doesn't have.

IFEMaster · Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:58 am

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 23):
Why not have dedicated lanes on the highway for expensive car owners - after all, they pay more taxes, or at least spend more, so therefore cities should want to attract them?

Stupid analogy.

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 23):
Should we now have separate lines at the DMV for wealthy people also? Separate phone numbers to EMS?

Another stupid analogy.

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 23):
The "if we don't treat da quality folks rite or dey mite go aways" arguments are hilarious.

I don't see anyone making that arguement.

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 25):
Yes, travelers who pay more are entitled to perks that the airline provides. However, the security screening is not part of the service the airline provides

Wrong. The airlines control the ticket-check prior to security. Anyone holding a first, business, or some kind of elite status, gets checked, and filtered in to the same line at many airports. They just go straight to the front of the line.

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 25):
Better bathrooms at airports, separate restaurants?

They already have that. They are called First Class Lounges. And yes, you only get access if you have a first, business, or elite status.

Honestly, you and Padraig seem very bitter about this. It isn't going to change, the majority of people don't complain about it, and it's just part of life. Those who are grown ups seem to be able to accept this without a problem.

Starlionblue · Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 23):
I'm surprised by many of the responses here and I find the analysis quite bizarre. Why stop with 1st class tickets? Why not have dedicated lanes on the highway for expensive car owners - after all, they pay more taxes, or at least spend more, so therefore cities should want to attract them?

This sort of thing already exists. Just look at toll roads and toll lanes.

Besides, big deal...

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 25):
I am someone who is not a business traveler, and I never fly first class. Personally, I could care less if there's a line for elite passengers and another for the other mass. I am always prepared and try not to hold up the line.
That said, I think this argument is ridiculous. Yes, travelers who pay more are entitled to perks that the airline provides. However, the security screening is not part of the service the airline provides, it's paid equally by all travelers (via taxes, I suppose), and it's supposed to provide an equal level of security for all. Therefore, I don't believe that this is something that the airports should continue sponsoring. ... I don't believe that people who pay more can get perks provided by an airport, which is owned by a government entity.

You don't understand. The TSA treats everyone the same so there is no advantage on the screening itself for premium pax. That is, the "public service" is the same for everyone. The wait is another matter. The only thing the TSA cares about is checking everyone in the same way. If you waited 2 or 15 minutes is irrelevant

Quoting Soups (Reply 29):
at LGW the fast track is used also by many economy class passengers, waiting in the queue i asked the officer checking the boarding pass (as i noticed many with seat numbers 34+) is this for business class only? he said no anyone can pass thru

The line may have been empty at the time. Also, it's not only for biz pax. It's also for pax with status at an airline.

[Edited 2006-08-19 19:06:57]

VEEREF · Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 1):
In fairness, first class passengers aren't treated differently - they are still subject to the same searches - but they have paid extra to be able to go straight to the head of the line. It's like asking why does a First Class passenger get a nicer seat and tastier food. Because they paid for it.

That would be true but for one thing- They didn't.

They paid for a bigger seat on a private airline. They did not pay for better treatment by a governmental agency. When individual airlines take over checkpoints they may discriminate how they want. But last time I checked airlines do not control security checkpoints.

How many people have missed filghts so that FC pax can stroll about at their leisure.

IFEMaster · Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 34):
That would be true but for one thing- They didn't.

They paid for a bigger seat on a private airline. They did not pay for better treatment by a governmental agency. When individual airlines take over checkpoints they may discriminate how they want. But last time I checked airlines do not control security checkpoints.

How many people have missed filghts so that FC pax can stroll about at their leisure.

Suggestion: read the whole thread before commenting. You will see that this has been discussed. But, just in case you don't...

First Class and Business and Elite passengers don't get treated any different by the TSA.

Airlines control the ticket-check process that filters passengers to the correct line. Once filtered in to the First Class line, the passenger goes through EXACTLY THE SAME treatment as any other passenger.

deltagator · Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:27 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 6):
I haven't seen it @ MCO. I have seen that Fly Clear @ Orlando.

It isn't marked but it does exist. On the Delta side of the terminal if you are gold/platinum or on a F ticket go to the far right of the security lines. When they check your ticket and ID they will send you down Lane 14 IIRC which bypasses the long snaking line and the wait for the metal detectors is usually only a couple of people deep at most. As you said they also have Clear! but that is a different setup.

Quoting Padraighaz (Thread starter):
While I'm sure the airlines could figure a way to do it anyways, it irritates me to see 2 lines for TSA screening, 1 for 1st class passengers, the other for the teeming millions.

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 23):
I'm surprised by many of the responses here and I find the analysis quite bizarre. Why stop with 1st class tickets? Why not have dedicated lanes on the highway for expensive car owners - after all, they pay more taxes, or at least spend more, so therefore cities should want to attract them?

Ah...good old class warfare and jealousy. I may wait in a shorter line but I still put up with the same ignorant TSA security staff as the so called "huddled masses" do. I don't fly on restricted tickets, I fly thousands upon thousands of miles a year, and I want to spend as little time in the airport and away from family and home as I can. If the airlines are going to help me ut a little bit by me being loyal to them then great.

I don't look down upon the people who are in the regular line (does that mean I'm in the irregular line?) or fly in Steerage nor will I ever do so. I'm no better than those folks despite whatever money I make, the size of my car (a Honda Accord BTW so nothing super fancy), or the house I live in. I travel a lot and the airlines take care of me. END OF STORY.

If you don't like it then fly more or buy first class tickets. It's a simple solution.

IFEMaster · Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 36):
If you don't like it then fly more or buy first class tickets. It's a simple solution.

Or don't fly at all, which is my preferred advice for those who insist on whinging like a bitter child about the way things are.

Starlionblue · Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:30 am

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 34):
They paid for a bigger seat on a private airline. They did not pay for better treatment by a governmental agency. When individual airlines take over checkpoints they may discriminate how they want. But last time I checked airlines do not control security checkpoints.

Did you not read the thread? The TSA treats everyone the same. They don't care what line you came in on. The TSA does not discriminate.

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 34):
How many people have missed filghts so that FC pax can stroll about at their leisure.

My heart bleeds. There are more reasons to book F than the big seat. This is one of them.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 36):
I don't look down upon the people who are in the regular line (does that mean I'm in the irregular line?) or fly in Steerage nor will I ever do so. I'm no better than those folks despite whatever money I make, the size of my car (a Honda Accord BTW so nothing super fancy), or the house I live in. I travel a lot and the airlines take care of me. END OF STORY.

Gilligan · Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:09 am

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 28):
This is not true in Phoenix.

It's not true in many airports. And in those airports that don't have a designated F line, they get to wait same as everyone else. I fly CO out of PHX and the past two times I've been through there in the past couple of months, they get lumped in with everyone else. They probably don't have them in FLG either so why not fly out of there? It certainly looked as though the airport was a lot easier to access than PHX. But I have to be honest and admit that PHX is one of the lousiest airports I've been through. That idiotic bus system between terminals is ridiculous. Haven't they thought about building a tram or subway?

FLY2LIM · Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:08 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 33):
You don't understand. The TSA treats everyone the same so there is no advantage on the screening itself for premium pax. That is, the "public service" is the same for everyone. The wait is another matter. The only thing the TSA cares about is checking everyone in the same way. If you waited 2 or 15 minutes is irrelevant

I understand fully. However, the person who checks my tickets is not an airline employee. It is a contracted employee, and I wonder who pays for that. My point is that access to an airport area, built and maintained by the airport facility (a public entity in most cases), should not be controled by the airlines.

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 32):
Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 25):
Better bathrooms at airports, separate restaurants?

They already have that. They are called First Class Lounges. And yes, you only get access if you have a first, business, or elite status.

My entire discussion was based on the public areas at the airport. First class lounges (like the Admiral Clubs) are not public areas. The bathrooms I have visited in any airport accept everyone equally.

Again, I personally don't care that this practice exists. However, it is not something that should be encouraged by any airport authority.

FLY2LIM

tsaord · Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:33 am

The Airlines would like to have those lines in place for the Frequent Flyers and Crew. It's a perk of the carrier to be able to get their loyal/frequent flyers with status through security in the shortest time. I just wish some Terminals could make more room for Airline crew only lanes.

Starlionblue · Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:42 am

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 40):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 33):
You don't understand. The TSA treats everyone the same so there is no advantage on the screening itself for premium pax. That is, the "public service" is the same for everyone. The wait is another matter. The only thing the TSA cares about is checking everyone in the same way. If you waited 2 or 15 minutes is irrelevant

I understand fully. However, the person who checks my tickets is not an airline employee. It is a contracted employee, and I wonder who pays for that. My point is that access to an airport area, built and maintained by the airport facility (a public entity in most cases), should not be controled by the airlines.

Perhaps the airport and perhaps the city (public entities or not) are interested in attracting business. Therefore they make life easier for business travelers.

You could also look at it this way. While the queue master may work for the airport (don't know) the airlines certainly pay fees to that airport for use. Therefore they may have some say in the matter.

Bottom line, it's logical to make life easier for frequent/biz travelers. It's good for business, whether it be the city, airport or airline doing it. If you want other examples of "discrimination", take tax breaks offered to companies which relocate to a town. Royal Bank of Scotland will receive about $100m in tax breaks from the city of Stamford and the state of Connecticut for moving it's Americas HQ to Stamford. Two public entities clearly giving advantages to a certain entity over others. The payoff is the creation of 7000 jobs at the bank + any number of spin-off effects to the local and regional economies.

FLY2LIM · Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:52 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 42):
You could also look at it this way. While the queue master may work for the airport (don't know) the airlines certainly pay fees to that airport for use. Therefore they may have some say in the matter.

Theoretically, I pay for the taxes that pay for the airport to operate, be built, whatever. Don't I have a say?

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 42):
Bottom line, it's logical to make life easier for frequent/biz travelers. It's good for business, whether it be the city, airport or airline doing it. If you want other examples of "discrimination", take tax breaks offered to companies which relocate to a town. Royal Bank of Scotland will receive about $100m in tax breaks from the city of Stamford and the state of Connecticut for moving it's Americas HQ to Stamford. Two public entities clearly giving advantages to a certain entity over others. The payoff is the creation of 7000 jobs at the bank + any number of spin-off effects to the local and regional economies.

And Toyota for having a plant in Ohio, Mercedes in Alabama, etc. But this is a different example. Both sides win, there's even benefits for the general public in improved infrastructure, more cash for public works, etc.

This is all very different than someone who is treated better simply because they are able to pay for a better seat in an airplane.

Remember, I will achieve a higher status on AA, thus allowing me to use said lines, and I will use them. But I stick to my point that people who use public facilities have to be given equal access. Otherwise, you'd never see handicapped bathrooms, for example. While the airlines may have the inside track on this system, it does not make it right.

FLY2LIM

Starlionblue · Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:05 pm

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 43):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 42):
You could also look at it this way. While the queue master may work for the airport (don't know) the airlines certainly pay fees to that airport for use. Therefore they may have some say in the matter.

Theoretically, I pay for the taxes that pay for the airport to operate, be built, whatever. Don't I have a say?

In theory you have a say. In theory the political entities controlling the airport are controlled by you as a voter. In practice this sort of thing is probably decided by some bureaucrat with little oversight. Rock the vote! Wink

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 43):
This is all very different than someone who is treated better simply because they are able to pay for a better seat in an airplane.

Well, sure. But my point was that in theory it's a good idea to treat business travelers well since the bulk of business at many airports is made up of business travelers. It may be "wrong" to let them cut in line, but if it means more money to the city/airport, is it illogical?

BTW we still haven't established who pays for what. Wink

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 43):
I stick to my point that people who use public facilities have to be given equal access.

As I said, this is theoretically sound. However if every voter becomes a touch more wealthy by attracting business by making biz travelers cut in line, is that not also taking care of the voter?

We could argue six ways 'til Sunday. I think there are strong arguments for both positions. Personally, I am a realpolitik kind of guy, so I say let the biz travelers cut in line, ethical niceties be damned. But that's just my opinion.

FLY2LIM · Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:56 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 44):
We could argue six ways 'til Sunday. I think there are strong arguments for both positions. Personally, I am a realpolitik kind of guy, so I say let the biz travelers cut in line, ethical niceties be damned. But that's just my opinion.

Starlion, I have no problems with an intelligent argument, which you offer.

I'm already looking forward to cutting the line when I FLY2LIM in November and December.

FLY2LIM

billreid · Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:07 pm

The line cutting is established by the airlines NOT TSA. Tsa screens everyone equally.

I think the screening should be done at the gate for the specific flight and not at a checkpoint. This would require more TSA staff but would be more flight specific, and if a problem arrises then the whole system doesn't get shut down.

Yellowstone · Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:36 pm

I figure this, like most other situations, should be a case of "you get what you pay for." If you pay the airline more, you deserve more service from the airline. If you pay the airport more, you deserve more service from the airport. The problem with the security screening issue that Padraighaz seems to raise is that an econ class passenger is not paying the TSA agents any less than a first class passenger. While I, having never flown in anything but econ, can sympathize with him, the fact is that the TSA treats (or at least should treat) everyone equally...at the security checkpoint. The airport sets up the lines before the checkpoints, and if an airline wants to pay them to set up 2 separate ones, that's fine with me. Just so long as the TSA doesn't cut the F and C class passengers any breaks they wouldn't give us.

Related to the "get what you pay for" idea, I think having a Fastpass you can buy from the airport would be a great idea.

P.S. What sort of job lets you get 125k miles a year? I've got to get one of those... Smile

Starlionblue · Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:49 pm

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 47):
If you pay the airline more, you deserve more service from the airline. If you pay the airport more, you deserve more service from the airport. The problem with the security screening issue that Padraighaz seems to raise is that an econ class passenger is not paying the TSA agents any less than a first class passenger. While I, having never flown in anything but econ, can sympathize with him, the fact is that the TSA treats (or at least should treat) everyone equally...at the security checkpoint. The airport sets up the lines before the checkpoints, and if an airline wants to pay them to set up 2 separate ones, that's fine with me. Just so long as the TSA doesn't cut the F and C class passengers any breaks they wouldn't give us.

Agreed. But there are always grey areas, where the airline may be indirectly paying the airport. So who has the right to what?

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 47):
What sort of job lets you get 125k miles a year? I've got to get one of those...

In my case, Sales Engineer for a small software company. My area is Northeastern US + Europe. So last year I flew over the pond every 2 weeks. Personally, I like the lifestyle, but I don't think it's for everyone. Living out of a suitcase 12-18 nights a month is weird. Staying in hotels and away from your familiy gets old. The glamour of travel (if there ever was any) wears off pretty fast.

But hey, at least I get to enter the lounge, fly in the exit row and receive upgrades to Biz pretty often. When you have lived the road warrior lifestyle for a while you really start to understand why those upgrades and perks are so very valuable for the airline. Any little thing to make travel smoother and easier is much appreciated and will engender traveler loyalty.

deltagator · Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:10 pm

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 47):
I figure this, like most other situations, should be a case of "you get what you pay for."

Bingo! Whether the cost is money and/or time away from family us everyday business travellers pay a hefty price and like to be treated a little bit more nicely.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 47):
What sort of job lets you get 125k miles a year? I've got to get one of those...

Mine as a contact center consultant. Don't know if you really want one of these jobs though. See below.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 48):
Personally, I like the lifestyle, but I don't think it's for everyone.

Nope. Everyday it drags on me a little bit more.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 48):
Living out of a suitcase 12-18 nights a month is weird.

Only 12-18 nights? Sissy! Wink

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 48):
Staying in hotels and away from your familiy gets old.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 48):
The glamour of travel (if there ever was any) wears off pretty fast.

What little glamor there was it wore off in about the first week. If not then it definitely goes by the wayside when you get your first trip from Hell or get sick on the road (I had pneumonia earlier this year but had to travel...yuck)

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 48):
But hey, at least I get to enter the lounge, fly in the exit row and receive upgrades to Biz pretty often. When you have lived the road warrior lifestyle for a while you really start to understand why those upgrades and perks are so very valuable for the airline. Any little thing to make travel smoother and easier is much appreciated and will engender traveler loyalty.

Amen Brother! I always love the argument about how we don't pay for our upgrades to First Class. We pay for it in time away from family and many other ways like unrestricted coach tickets with auto-upgrades to F. 3 extra inches of pitch and a seat 2 inches wider go a long way in making air travel tolerable in these pain in the ass times that exist.

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 40):
Again, I personally don't care that this practice exists. However, it is not something that should be encouraged by any airport authority.

Maybe I'm slow this morning (no jokes from the peanut gallery) but I just don't get your argument. The person who checks my ticket against my ID in ATL is a contracted employee but then so are the governmental TSA folks who do my actual screening. What is wrong with that?

If the service is not offered then business travel will find other places to go and then the airport slows down and business slows down in your town. But then I see your earlier comment from above next.

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 25):
I don't believe that people who pay more can get perks provided by an airport, which is owned by a government entity.

The only perk is that we get to go to the front of the security line. We still get the same body cavity search and surly TSA attitude as folks in the regular line (there I go again with my line being irregular) once we hit the scanners. I don't see how an airport authority offering this perk for their regular business travellers is a bad thing. Who does it hurt? Nobody.

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