CO's New Transatlantic Routes

coerj · Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:50 pm

Yesterday I flew onboard CO123 from CPH-EWR, a recently added route operated by a 752. The flight was less than half full. Almost every person onboard had an entire row to themselves and not one person had somebody sitting next to them.

While I enjoyed the space it made me wonder how well CO was doing on this route as well as the recently added 757 routes.

Are CO's new 757 routes to Europe profitable?

Are there any routes that will be eliminated in the near future?

Are there any routes that will be upgraded in equipment?

What new cities will we see in the future?

lorenz · Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:58 pm

Hey,

I know for certain that OSL is a gold-digger for CO! Smile

MCOflyer · Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:59 pm

Quoting COERJ (Thread starter):
Are CO's new 757 routes to Europe profitable?

Yes, The LIS route is profitable as well as most Europe ones served by the 752. I'm guessing this flt had a poor load factor for that day. EWRCabincrew would know more about this than me. He works for CO.

MCOflyer

coerj · Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:04 pm

Quoting Lorenz (Reply 1):
I know for certain that OSL is a gold-digger for CO!

OSL is a unique route as it is the only flight between Norway and the US therefore there is little to no competition for CO.

While I was in Norway last week every American tourist I met had a CO tag on their luggage.

CO also does well in Stockholm while there is a ton of competition with daily flights out of EWR on SAS and Malaysia.

I'm not sure if the low loads on the CPH flight is because of little demand or the competition with SAS's nonstop flight to EWR.

heisan67 · Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:27 pm

Quoting Lorenz (Reply 1):

Hopefully we will see another equipment on the EWR-OSL service soon. The route is without any nonstop competition, and a gold mine for CO.

dutchjet · Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:28 pm

The Copenhagen route is doing well from what I hear, as are the other new cities......you experience was was a one off thing, I think. Did you happen to notice if the BF cabin was fully booked?

coerj · Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
Did you happen to notice if the BF cabin was fully booked?

I believe there were about 8-10 people in the BF cabin therefore it was slightly more than half full, which suprised me since I thought a flight to CPH would have high Business yields.

dutchjet · Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting COERJ (Reply 6):

I believe there were about 8-10 people in the BF cabin therefore it was slightly more than half full, which suprised me since I thought a flight to CPH would have high Business yields.

Interesting......because I know that it can be tough to find a BF seat on the route. To me, it seems that you just hit an "off day", which can happen even on the busiest of routes during the peak travel season.

style · Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:09 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 2):
Yes, The LIS route is profitable as well as most Europe ones served by the 752.

Yes, the LIS route is profitable but LIS is not a new city for CO. EWRLIS has been flown by CO for many years, and yes it does have one of the highest yields.

Most of the new flights have cooled off with a few exceptions. CO has always said that these new cities would reduce in service for the winter schedule.

OSL has very high loads. The 757, like it or not is the ideal plane for certain destinations in Europe. CO has to be given credit for being a 'pioneer' with the 757 across the pond.

EWRCabincrew · Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
Did you happen to notice if the BF cabin was fully booked?

JUst worked the 123 on the 17th. We had 11 in B/F and 76 in Y/C. From what Paul (CO station assistant manager) was saying it was just an off day. They have been going out full. Seems doing very well. CPH will go to 5x week in the winter.

dutchjet · Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:18 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 9):

JUst worked the 123 on the 17th. We had 11 in B/F and 76 in Y/C. From what Paul (CO station assistant manager) was saying it was just an off day. They have been going out full. Seems doing very well. CPH will go to 5x week in the winter.

Hey - good to ""see"" you.

I found the OP interesting and had a feeling he just hit an off day...its been a long time since I have seen a CO transatlantic flight with empty seats. CO always planned to operate CPN (and several other smaller EU destinations) only 5 times per week during the winter......this formula seems to be working for them.

I am flying on CO 61 on Wednesday.....any chance that we will meet up?

EWRCabincrew · Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:25 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 10):
I am flying on CO 61 on Wednesday.....any chance that we will meet up?

Working the 57 on Tuesday and the 74 on Wednesday. We will pass in the airport. Would be nice to put a face to the typing, so to speak.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 10):
CO always planned to operate CPN (and several other smaller EU destinations) only 5 times per week during the winter......this formula seems to be working for them.

When we do that, operate a few days a week, the flights are still full or full-ish. We probabaly wouldn't have the high loads if we operated daily.

dutchjet · Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:31 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 11):
We will pass in the airport

Shame.....I am on 60 on 2 September, and then will be flying back and forth about every two weeks......we will make this work out at some point. Hope that you are having a good summer.

thepilot730 · Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:44 am

There is a rumor going around that Malaysia might be canceling their ARN-EWR and routing that flight either through AMS or CDG.

DLBOIFIN · Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:50 am

Any news about CO serving HEL? It would be logical as they are flying to all other Nordic capitals now and there sure is some potential left for the HEL-USA market.

DB

dutchjet · Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting DLBOIFIN (Reply 14):
Any news about CO serving HEL? It would be logical as they are flying to all other Nordic capitals now and there sure is some potential left for the HEL-USA market.

DB

HEL is one of several European cities being considered........if CO determines that it will serve HEL, look for an announcement in Jan or Feb 2007 with service to begin in May or Jun 2007. CO will add more EWR-Europe routes for the Summer 2007 schedule, many say another 4 or 5 routes will be added.

Rumors suggest that EWR-HEL has a good chance of becoming a reality on CO.

lewis · Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting COERJ (Thread starter):

What new cities will we see in the future?

I have read in this forum numerous times that ATH might be a possibility. Is CO really considering it?

dutchjet · Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting Lewis (Reply 16):
I have read in this forum numerous times that ATH might be a possibility. Is CO really considering it?

US-Greece is not open skies, thus CO cannot freely enter the market.

I am aware that, at one time, PA and TW and UA all served ATH at the same time, but now Greece is a Delta destination and, from what I have been told, CO cannot simply launch EWR-ATH without governmental approvals which Greece may not be willing to give. I have asked, and have never gotten a clear answer concerning the US/Greece bi-lateral.....but for some reason, CO has regulatory issues preventing it from launching EWR-ATH.

A 767 would be required for EWR-ATH......its a good route to launch with a 762ER.

HunUtazo · Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:39 am

...when BUD?

EWR-BUD or CLE-BUD?

Thanks

dutchjet · Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting HunUtazo (Reply 18):
EWR-BUD or CLE-BUD?

EWR-BUD: Maybe someday, the first Eastern Euroean city will be Prague to tie into SkyTeam member CSA's hub.

CLE-BUD: Never. Sorry.

CMHSRQ · Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 19):
EWR-BUD: Maybe someday, the first Eastern Euroean city will be Prague to tie into SkyTeam member CSA's hub.

CLE-BUD: Never. Sorry.

What about BUD-LIT

har har har

johnnybgoode · Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:07 am

Quoting COERJ (Thread starter):
Yesterday I flew onboard CO123 from CPH-EWR, a recently added route operated by a 752. The flight was less than half full. Almost every person onboard had an entire row to themselves and not one person had somebody sitting next to them.

new routes usually take quite some time until they return some money.
first, they have low bookings due to little or no awareness. then the commercials kick in, the fares are low. flights are full, but yields are low, the B/E LF (break even load factor) is above 100% so the flight would not be able to be profitable. after some time, flights make it, or they don't.

but given the fact that CO uses a 757 on most of those routes, i assume they sooner or later will all make money. if not, than with which aircraft would those markets work? small number of seats, quite an economical aircraft, the market must be a bummer or competition intense for such a route to be unsuccessful.

piercey · Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:14 am

Quoting Thepilot730 (Reply 13):
There is a rumor going around that Malaysia might be canceling their ARN-EWR and routing that flight either through AMS or CDG.

No surprise, probably to reallign itself with Air France - KLM for their possible entry into SkyTeam.

Speaking of CDG and AMS, any more news on the rumored CLE-AMS or CDG, or is it dead in the water.

Also, what about PRG or ICN/GMP becoming future cities, to connect with OK and KAL?

dutchjet · Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:24 am

Quoting Piercey (Reply 22):
Speaking of CDG and AMS, any more news on the rumored CLE-AMS or CDG, or is it dead in the water.

Still the same old story......CLE-AMS or CLE-CDG will not launch unless and until CO can run CLE-LGW year round (summer daily/winter 5X week) and make money doing it. Dead in the water? No. Will the routes launch in the near term future? Sadly, also a No. And, most think that if and when CO introduces a second transatlantic route out of CLE, it will be to AMS due to better connection possibilities and the fact that CO seems to like working with KL better than AF. I have always thought that CLE-AMS would be more successful than CLE-LGW.......CLE-AMS would offer service to AMS, Europe, Africa and the world with easy connections on SkyTeam partner KL (and AMS is a great airport for connections, pax, especially US pax, appreciate that everyone speaks English and the shopping in great). while CLE-LGW offers service to London, and London.

HunUtazo · Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:03 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 19):
CLE-BUD: Never. Sorry.

Demographics

Distribution of Magyar Americans according to the 2000 census According to the 2000 US Census, there are 1,398,724[1] Magyars in the United States at the present time.

The states with the largest Magyar-American populations include[2]:

Ohio- 193,951
New York- 137,029
California- 133,988
Pennsylvania- 132,184
New Jersey- 115,615
Michigan 98,036
Florida 96,885

Sam the Lab · Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:09 am

Dutchjet, If the Irish Government and the Americans are ever allowed by the EU to agree a little side deal which will abolish the Shannon Stopover etc between Ireland and the USA before a more general Europe wide Open Skies deal is signed off how do you feel about Cork Airport's chances of securing a Newark flight from Continental even if it was only at 2 or 3 times a week or is the case that Shannon has the America market so sewn up that Cork will never a chance?

Thanks.

dutchjet · Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting HunUtazo (Reply 24):
Demographics

Your information is interesting, I must say that I have learned something.......but let me make a general comment; a.net members generally place too much importance on "ethnic" connections between two cities when analyzing the possibiilty of launching a flight. While its interesting that 200,000 of Magyar desent in the Ohio area, its unlikely that this group, on its own, could support a CO flight from CLE to BUD. If CO were to launch a connection to BUD, it would be from EWR where there are connections available to service all of the areas that you mentioned in your post.

A couple of other things to consider: (1) Ethnic/VFR (visiting friends and relatives) type traffic is usually low yeild and the passengers will fly on which ever airline offers lower fares (logical) and its tough for an airline to make money on this type of pax. (2) There are ethnic niche routes worldwide, but they are rarely flown by the US legacy carriers.....if CLE-BUD would ever come to be, its more likely that MALEV would fly it.

Interesting proposition although I still dont think we will see CO flying from CLE to BUD, but your info does support a CLE-AMS service - pax could easily fly CO from CLE to AMS and connect at AMS to a BUD bound flight, something that cannot be easily done at Gatwick......I honestly had no idea how you initially came up with the CLE-BUD connection (I actually thought you were kidding)....thanks for following up.

ContinentalEWR · Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:17 am

Summer 2007....look for Venice, Zagreb, Nice.

dutchjet · Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:30 am

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 27):
Summer 2007....look for Venice, Zagreb, Nice.

Zargreb, thats a new one for me. Add HEL and STR to the list from what I hear......and is EWR-NCL ever going to be launched???

Quoting Sam the Lab (Reply 25):
Dutchjet, If the Irish Government and the Americans are ever allowed by the EU to agree a little side deal which will abolish the Shannon Stopover etc between Ireland and the USA before a more general Europe wide Open Skies deal is signed off how do you feel about Cork Airport's chances of securing a Newark flight from Continental even if it was only at 2 or 3 times a week or is the case that Shannon has the America market so sewn up that Cork will never a chance?

Thanks.

There has been a lot of chat about Cork here at a.net......I have heard nothing that indicates CO has any interest in serving that airport, even if CO could work out some deal to avoid the SNN stopover. A couple of things - CO is probably not going to launch a service that cannot be operated daily in the summer and 5X per week in the winter with a 757, that would be a lot of capacity for Cork I think (and CO is not going to send a 737NG across the Atlantic, lets not go there), second, after years of everyone bitching and moaning about SNN, demand for SNN seems to have developed....especially in recent years and CO has no problem filling its 752 flight on the EWR-SNN route. For those reasons, I am not optimistic that Cork will be seeing a CO flight in the near future.

One other thing.....so much depends on what type of package the airport authority and local government would offer CO to launch the route - incentives are very important. CO launched Belfast, for example, and surprised a lot of people because they got a great offer from BFS and associated parties......and the route works, but without the deal, I dont think CO would have opened up service to BFS. The same could be true at Cork.....time will tell.

mbm3 · Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:36 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 23):
I have always thought that CLE-AMS would be more successful than CLE-LGW.......CLE-AMS would offer service to AMS, Europe, Africa and the world with easy connections on SkyTeam partner KL (and AMS is a great airport for connections, pax, especially US pax, appreciate that everyone speaks English and the shopping in great). while CLE-LGW offers service to London, and London.

This is exactly correct and hopefully AMS will happen soon! It really kinda irks me that it seems to be contingent on LGW going year round as AMS has much more of an opportunity to do well.

nuggetsyl · Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:55 am

I would think cle ams would be much better than ewr ams If the the pax do not intend on staying in ewr. Much easier to connect in cle then ewr.

EWRCabincrew · Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:03 am

Quoting Nuggetsyl (Reply 30):
Much easier to connect in cle then ewr.

While the connection may be easier, EWR has a much larger flight base (in terms of destinations served and frequency) than CLE. Whether or this affects it, CLE customs is much smaller than EWR in terms of capacity. There are only two gates for customs in CLE, gates A12 and A14. If one plane is in, the other waits till all customers are off before they allow the other to deplane. This happens time to time when USA3000 or another charter from the Caribbean/Mexico arrives.

vv701 · Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:04 am

Quoting Style (Reply 8):
The 757, like it or not is the ideal plane for certain destinations in Europe. CO has to be given credit for being a 'pioneer' with the 757 across the pond.

The 757 was first put into trans-Atlantic service many, many years ago. Nationair was operating a regular YMX-BRU service more than fifteen years ago:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © JetPix

and BA started their now discontinued GLA-JFK-BOS service over eleven years ago on 29 January 1995. CO is simply following in others footsteps.

Edited to restore photo.

[Edited 2006-08-20 02:05:36]

dutchjet · Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:06 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 32):

The 757 was first put into trans-Atlantic service many, many years ago. Nationair was operating a regular YMX-BRU service more than fifteen years ago:

and BA started their now discontinued GLA-JFK-BOS service over eleven years ago on 29 January 1995. CO is simply following in others footsteps.

Also dont forget EL AL flew a 752 on the EWR-STN-TLV route back in the early 1990s.

Airdolomiti · Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:08 am

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 27):
Summer 2007....look for Venice, Zagreb, Nice.

Venice would be fantastic news, though I wonder how such a flight would fare with Delta operating a daily JFK-VCE service (5x/week in winter, plus of course the ATL-VCE run and the seasonal US PHL-VCE flight). I'm guessing though that the wide range of onward connections from EWR might help.

EWRCabincrew · Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:12 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 32):
CO is simply following in others footsteps.

That and expanding it to the make sure Europeans and North Americans get non-stop service whereas other carriers won't go.

Quoting Style (Reply 8):
The 757, like it or not is the ideal plane for certain destinations in Europe. CO has to be given credit for being a 'pioneer' with the 757 across the pond.

A definite pioneer when it comes to consistant, daily, year-round service to Europe. This coupled with the fact CO is, yet again, upgrading the IFE to include Y/C with VOD shows that the 757 is here to stay. Others will follow (such as US and AA) and reap the benefits as we continue to do.

Alitalia744 · Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:14 am

Quoting Style (Reply 8):
CO has to be given credit for being a 'pioneer' with the 757 across the pond.

CO was not the first airline to fly the 757 across the pond. They did, however use them on a more mass scale than others before them.

That being said, credit is do to Continental for allocating their limited fleet resources (widebody/int'l ranged aircraft) much more successfuly, and more smartly than all of the other legacy carriers (look at my favorite carrier - Delta - they are just realizing the ability of transferring aircraft to different and more suitable/profitable route missions). They are able to open new routes with smaller risk than others due to the 757.

AeroWesty · Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:17 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 17):
I am aware that, at one time, PA and TW and UA all served ATH at the same time, but now Greece is a Delta destination

Just FYI, Delta, United and American hold rights to fly to Greece. AA has authority both in their own right, along with holding the old TWA rights.

dalca · Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:18 am

I don't see CO doing even a seasonal EWR-VCE service, not while being evoled in Skyteam. CO has excellent connex with KL out of AMS not to mention the connex the connex with AZ in all of Italy.
I do see CO starting a route to either WAW or HEL some time soon. Finnair has been thinking about cutting their HEL-JFK Run some more to free up flights to the far-east. Finnair would then use their connex in One World out of LHR.

EWRCabincrew · Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:20 am

One this is for sure, time will tell. Look forward to it all this January or so. I sure can't wait.

coerj · Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:21 am

With talk of HEL is the B757 within range?

I assume we'll be seeing alot more of eastern Europe such as Budapest and Prague when we get the 787s as they will fill in the gap.

Is there any chance we'd see CO in Iceland. I'm not familliar with the political limitations or what, but I'm sure CO could pull it off with a 737 as it is not completely transatlantic.

Is there anyone with a list of destinations on CO's wish list? I'd love to have it.

flydreamliner · Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:21 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 15):
Rumors suggest that EWR-HEL has a good chance of becoming a reality on CO.

Some of CO's 757-200 Transatlantics:

EWR-ARN - 3,930 miles
EWR-OSL - 3,697 miles
CLE-LGW - 3,763 miles
EWR-TXL - 3,980 miles

Now -

EWR-HEL - 4,126 miles

Can 757-200 do that long of a route all year, fully loaded, with allowance for a windy day?

Do they have any surplus widebodies for a route like that, or EWR-BUD or wherever else, because it looked like all their transatlantic additions seemed to be coming from 752s....

worldtraveler · Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:33 am

As for the low loads on this particular flight, loads do start to change as some southern schools go back in session but fares are still set for the peak summer season. After Labor Day, lower fares will be available to coincide with the return of most families to school life leaving the retired and childless to travel.

Quoting HunUtazo (Reply 24):
The states with the largest Magyar-American populations include[2]:

Ohio- 193,951

probably why DL's JFK-BUD flight # originates in CVG even if it does have a change of aircraft at JFK.

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 27):
look for Venice, Zagreb, Nice.

Zagreb would surprise me from the perspective that it is a small market... however, there are alot of displaced people from there so the travel demand could be much larger than statistics would bear out.

Not to turn this into a CO-DL debate but it is interesting to note that CO will probably exhaust its transatlantic deployable 757s about the time DL starts deploying the ex-TW 757s on its transatlantic system. Granted, CO will also start receiving 787s as DL starts getting 777LRs so the growth will continue but the type of routes being started will start changing for both airlines. There is no doubt that CO recognized the value of the 757 and while it is not an ideal aircraft for some markets, it does have the ability to serve many small thin markets. I expect that at least some of DL's 757s will replace some of its widebody flying to Ireland and the UK outside of London, allowing 767s to fly longer routes.

In light of all the data that is coming out about how fast the immigrant population in the US is growing, there are no shortage of opportunities for international expansion by US airlines.

Alitalia744 · Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:34 am

Quoting COERJ (Reply 40):
With talk of HEL is the B757 within range?

I assume we'll be seeing alot more of eastern Europe such as Budapest and Prague when we get the 787s as they will fill in the gap.

Is there any chance we'd see CO in Iceland. I'm not familliar with the political limitations or what, but I'm sure CO could pull it off with a 737 as it is not completely transatlantic.

Is there anyone with a list of destinations on CO's wish list? I'd love to have it.

It's all questionable and I'm sure CO is currently re-reviewing their European expansion plans in light of Delta's "fly a 767 to any country with an airport/runway big enough to land a 767" philosophy.

CALMSP · Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:40 am

dont forget to add the proposed....or quitely proposed EWR-&&& route!!!

Sorry, cant give more than that!!

worldtraveler · Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:46 am

I'll reiterate that I don't want this thread to turn into a CO-DL bashfest but I can't let this go unanswered.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 43):
It's all questionable and I'm sure CO is currently re-reviewing their European expansion plans in light of Delta's "fly a 767 to any country with an airport/runway big enough to land a 767" philosophy.

Perhaps the same could be said about CO and its 757s. You do recall that before this summer, CO has served more cities in Europe than DL for several years. How can it be reckless for DL to expand but it wasn't for CO? DL obviously knew what it was doing with its expansion since it was able to generate a higher operating profit margin for the most recent quarter than CO was - and that was while all those new routes were starting up!

coerj · Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:50 am

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 44):
dont forget to add the proposed....or quitely proposed EWR-&&& route!!!

Sorry, cant give more than that!!

LOL didn't really give much to begin with. But I'm sure there are multiple &&& routes as the CO international system is rapidly expanding.

By any chance does anybody know what CO is doing to cope with the amount of international traffic at EWR in means of terminal space?

I know they're sending a few flights to B but will they begin to make this a permanent trend, or will they look for ways to expand their international facilities at C3 by expanding to the other concources (C2) or building new ones?

I know here at EWR the FIS facility and international departure lounge in B is much larger than the one in C while there is a much larger amount of international flights going into the C facilities.

andaman · Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:51 am

Quoting DLBOIFIN (Reply 14):
Any news about CO serving HEL? It would be logical as they are flying to all other Nordic capitals now and there sure is some potential left for the HEL-USA market.

DB

CO is really welcome in HEL, as there is only Finnair flying to US, to JFK plus to Boston and Miami seasonally.
I know what comes to long haul traffic HEL is most of all an Asia hub but it's still bit annoying you have so few choises to US - and at the same time there are non stop connections to four Chinese cities, for an example...

EWRCabincrew · Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:51 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 45):
I'll reiterate that I don't want this thread to turn into a CO-DL bashfest but I can't let this go unanswered.

Now it will for sure. Let's nip it in the bud and continue the topic subject of CO's New Transatlantic Routes.

Like i said before, time will tell for sure what routes we get. But for certain, there will be more.

Cheers

Alitalia744 · Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:57 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 45):
Perhaps the same could be said about CO and its 757s. You do recall that before this summer, CO has served more cities in Europe than DL for several years. How can it be reckless for DL to expand but it wasn't for CO? DL obviously knew what it was doing with its expansion since it was able to generate a higher operating profit margin for the most recent quarter than CO was - and that was while all those new routes were starting up!

WorldTraveler - a few things:

1) As you of all people should know, and I can probably quote STT and DutchJet for this somewhere, I am a devout, faithful beyond reason, loyal supporter of Delta Air Lines and usually am the ones picking the fights against the CO boys.

2) DL did report a higher profit margin (operational), but as you and I both know, DL continues to have some serious headway to make before setting getting to the City of Oz.

3) We still do not know the total result of DL's euro expansion, however as you and I have both heard, it is going quite well. Well enough to know that there is more coming around the bend. I'm looking forward to November's announcement, are you?

4) Getting back to CO, you do have to give them credit (and I do find this extremely hard to do given my love for Delta) - they have been ahead of the bandwagon.

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