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diesel33
Posts: 325
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:53 pm

Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 95):
Like G. Bethune once said "Nobody ever lost $ by flying too small an aircraft"

Wasn't that the issue with the BOI route...?
 
bobnwa
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:34 pm

Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 95):
Like G. Bethune once said "Nobody ever lost $ by flying too small an aircraft"

Actually, it was Robert Crandall that said that!!
 
worldtraveler
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:59 pm

the whole premise of widebody aircraft coming online was that CASMs came down as a result of more efficient aircraft and that is exactly what they did. There is a point where the incremental cost of each additional seat falls faster than the incremental revenue obtainable from each additional seat.

A Business jet has lower costs per trip than a CRJ yet there is incremental revenue that can be obtained from the additional 30 or 40 seats while the costs do not grow near as fast. The same principle applies for every route and aircraft route. The trick for airline network depts. to find not only the right aircraft for each route but also optimize all of those best matches for each route and flight with all the other flights on the network.

And despite alot of people's assertion here, the 757 is not the ideal aircraft for many of CO's transatlantic flights, it just happens to be the aircraft CO has most readily had available and thus it has been used to grow the European network. By the same token, the 767 is not necessarily the ideal aircraft for DL's transatlantic network although that is what DL has in abundance for TA growth and which is probably part of why they chose to obtain the 757 for transatlantic use. It will be interesting to see how DL uses the 757s but I don't think anyone should be surprised if DL downgrades some of its current 767 flights to 757s, allowing the 767s to fly larger and/or longer routes. CO has been able to push the 757 to fly routes that may not be ideal for that aircraft but the benefit has been freeing up larger aircraft for longer routes, going all the way up to the 777 which is best suited for flying EWR-Asia.
 
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airzim
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:02 am

It's better off for everyone if you just ignore Worldtraveller. We all know his arguments, since he says them over and over again hoping that it may actually be true. He's hasn't said anything new in months, just more of the Delta diarrhea. The fact that JFK will never be a domestic hub for DL continues to escape his brain, which might just have a little impact on his Delta JFK worldwide domination.

Gordon always said he wanted CO to fly nonstop to all major business destinations nonstops from their hubs.

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw the following routes in the next few years;

EWR-PVG
EWR-ICN
EWR-JNB
EWR-DXB
EWR-CAS
EWR-BOM
EWR-PRG
EWR-HEL
EWR-WAW
EWR-DME
EWR-LOS
EWR-Baku (?)
EWR-SIN
EWR-BKK (?)

IAH-SYD
 
ti717
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 44):
dont forget to add the proposed....or quietly proposed EWR-&&& route!!!

Are you sure about &&&, I thought it was ###.  Smile

Would the french cities wait till 08? When all the upgrades to the 757 are farther along? I thinking 3 of '07 and 6 in '08 (The French invasion)

IS there markets in South America where CO could use same strategy out of IAH? ***And the a.net pipe dream of the day **** What about using the 787 in '09 to feed Guam and the 757 to Asia? Big grin  cloudnine 
Sir, don't you think we should turn on the runway lights?" "No, that's just what there expecting us to do!"
 
iahcsr
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 91):
It's no rumor. There was a thread on here a week or so ago about a brand new 738 that CO just received that had AVOD in both F and Y.

... It was hoped to have the AVOD in the new plane (Ship 501) .. But the equipment .. or the certification for it .... was not ready yet. If it's not in Ship 502, then  crossfingers  for 503...
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
2travel2know
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:12 am

Quoting Mbm3 (Reply 97):
Croatia is becoming one of the new trendy destinations for Americans and both Venice and Nice certainly draw large groups and business travelers alike.

When I hear Croatia and "trendy" I think Duvroknik not ZAG.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
piercey
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:59 am

Quoting Airzim (Reply 103):
EWR-DME

already serving Moscow  Wink
Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
 
HunUtazo
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:17 pm

AMR.......takes..........nwac


CAL........takes..........ual.......fragment going to LCC


LCC........takes..........fragments of ual and dal


LUV.........takes.........dal........fragment going to LCC
dude
 
joeman
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:38 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 85):
Again, per the British CAA's numbers here are the passengers for EWR-BRS last winter and for CLE-LGW during its last winter operation (00-01)

Month BRS CLE

Nov 6374 6542
Dec 5997 6125
Jan 5008 4993
Feb 4924 3905
Mar 7930 6995

Total 30,233 28,560

That breaks down to about 11 passengers more per day on BRS-EWR than LGW-CLE, using CLE figures from 6 years ago (during the winter slow season) and it's already been established that CLE-LGW has a higher load factor in summer season.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 73):
....I am not sure as to why CO is being so conservative and is so unwilling to once again try CLE-LGW on a year round basis......my only guess it that the route must have lost a fortune during the winters that CO did operate it (pre-2001)......

EWR-BRS must have exceptional yield?....

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 23):
Still the same old story......CLE-AMS or CLE-CDG will not launch unless and until CO can run CLE-LGW year round (summer daily/winter 5X week) and make money doing it.

I think CLE is getting used to CO stories
 
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mbm3
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting Joeman (Reply 114):
EWR-BRS must have exceptional yield?....

IIRC EWR-BRS is heavily subsidized by the regional government in the UK. I am unsure as to how long the subsidy will be in place.
Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
 
VORFMD
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:57 am

What about VIE. Wasn´t there a rumour CO likes to go to VIE but is lacking the A/C to operate this Route ?
 
dutchjet
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:03 am

Quoting VORFMD (Reply 121):
What about VIE. Wasn´t there a rumour CO likes to go to VIE but is lacking the A/C to operate this Route ?

Its an airplane issue......CO wants VIE, it does not have a spare 767 to operate the route, and there are operational issues with using the 752 due to range and some other considerations. Its marketing vs operations...the latest rumor that I have heard is that VIE will not happen in the near term future.
 
VORFMD
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:06 am

Thanks for the Info Dutchjet !
 
gokmengs
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:33 am

EWR-IST to me can be an other addition that could be reality one day. Granted can't be done with a 757 but since the route has very lucrative cargo revenue. 767 could work fine for CO. DL does great on JFK-IST, and EWR-IST is a sure bet IMO.
Yaşa Mustafa Kemal Paşa Yaşa, Adın Yazılacak Mücevher Taşa
 
joeman
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:43 am

Quoting Mbm3 (Reply 115):
IIRC EWR-BRS is heavily subsidized by the regional government in the UK. I am unsure as to how long the subsidy will be in place.

I see, sort of like AA's RDU-UK service. I wonder how much is actually paid to support the EWR-BRS route, what strings are attached if any, and for how long.
 
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mbm3
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:46 am

Quoting Joeman (Reply 129):
see, sort of like AA's RDU-UK service. I wonder how much is actually paid to support the EWR-BRS route, what strings are attached if any, and for how long.

I believe AA's RDU-UK flights are supported by corporate contracts with the pharmaceutical companies such as Glaxo. EWR-BRS is subsidized by the government.
Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
 
Humberside
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:14 am

Quoting Mbm3 (Reply 131):
EWR-BRS is subsidized by the government.

Certainly not directly. My guess is it is subsidized by the local regional development agency for South West England
Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
 
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mbm3
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 132):
Certainly not directly. My guess is it is subsidized by the local regional development agency for South West England

My apologies for not being clear!
Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
 
ti717
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:03 am

New service to France had me think "to where". All of France should be in range of a 757 so that should not be a issue. Not knowing much about French Cities looked up the 10 largest metro areas. And added some comments beside please at on to my thoughts.

1 Paris (currently flies to CDG, what about ORY??)
2 Lille-Kortrijk (close to Brussels)
3 Lyon  checkmark 
4 Marseille  checkmark 
5 Douai-Lens-Béthune-Valenciennes (close to Brussels)
6 Saarbrücken-Forbach (Close to FRA)
7 Toulouse (CO does not own any Airbus to fly home, but  checkmark  )
8 Bordeaux (Wine run)  checkmark  )
9 Nice (DL flies there )  Smile  checkmark 
10 Nantes (Near Bordeaux, smaller city)
Sir, don't you think we should turn on the runway lights?" "No, that's just what there expecting us to do!"
 
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STT757
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:33 am

Quoting Ti717 (Reply 136):
1 Paris (currently flies to CDG, what about ORY??)

CO and AA used to fly to Orly, if they had their choice they would return in a heartbeat. The French Government made CO and AA move from Orly to CDG, I always use ORY and CDG as examples to EWR and JFK.

CDG and JFK are named after former leaders of the '60s and have name recognition, however savvy travelers and some airlines (including AA and CO) prefer Orly to CDG. Same with EWR and JFK, JFK has name recognition but EWR has the savvy business travelers and some airlines prefer EWR to JFK (SAS, Tap etc).
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
CALMSP
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:33 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 122):

From our standpoingt in operations, its Marketing vs. no one!!!!
 
goCOgo
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:26 am

Quoting Mbm3 (Reply 131):
EWR-BRS is subsidized by the government.

I thought these subsidies ended after the first year (leading to many speculating on a.net that CO would pull out of BRS after one year). Anyway, I'm sure they are at least given favorable rates (if they pay for anything besides Jet A) on stuff in BRS, which probably helps. In any event, the comparison of BRS to CLE-LGW at least shows that CO could at least try it 5X weekly during the winter without a huge risk. But alas, the extra few thousand pax a month probably go at least part of the way to keeping the seats full on EWR-LGW during the winter.
"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
 
joeman
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:44 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 23):
Still the same old story......CLE-AMS or CLE-CDG will not launch unless and until CO can run CLE-LGW year round (summer daily/winter 5X week) and make money doing it.



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 73):
I am not sure as to why CO is being so conservative and is so unwilling to once again try CLE-LGW on a year round basis...



Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 85):
An easy conclusion is: CO could find a way to run CLE over the winter if they wanted to; but I suspect they would rather use CLE's winter numbers to bolster their seasonal weakness in EWR.



Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 122):
In any event, the comparison of BRS to CLE-LGW at least shows that CO could at least try it 5X weekly during the winter without a huge risk. But alas, the extra few thousand pax a month probably go at least part of the way to keeping the seats full on EWR-LGW during the winter.

So it looks like a CO CLE-LGW year round and CLE-AMS etc. to follow is not about to happen in the next decade...or the next...after all, EWR has to look good, and it makes practical financial sense at CLE expense, just like the rest of the majority of CO operations.

Funny how air travel numbers have got to be at least as good as pre-9/11. Pre 911 saw fit that multiple airlines served direct or nonstop year round LGW-CLE(PA,DL,CO), LGW-STL (British Cal, TW), and LGW-PIT (BA,US). But they can't do it now for whatever reason. (like yield and bla, bla, bla)

Maybe larger metro area within close proximity such as CLE and PIT should pool their assets, talents, and marketing development to try securing carriers such as LH to operate a FRA-PIT-CLE-FRA circuit route. Right now that region of nearly 6,000,000 people sends all its O&D diluted through all of the multiple competing US carriers for FRA traffic by way of their overcrowded and overbearing world wonderful gateways hubs. Another thread indeed...

In a nutshell, major metros such as PIT, STL & CLE will continue to see very slow rises in capacity to these wonderful hellhole hubs and of course a modest increase in capacity to the near rural outposts their major carriers continue to feed into them for bigger and better destinations. The superhubs gain capacity by two fold. That being from more circuits to the major US metros to distribute their growing O&D all over the place and to more and more lavish and prestigious international destinations.

Another thread no doubt, but hopefully their is a MUCH greater concentration on point-to-point air travel by US carriers in the quick future. There's way to many US itineraries that have ATL, EWR, ORD, DFW or DEN etc. in the flightplan.
 
joeman
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:57 am

Quoting Joeman (Reply 123):
Funny how air travel numbers have got to be at least as good as pre-9/11. Pre 911 saw fit that multiple airlines served direct or nonstop year round LGW-CLE(PA,DL,CO), LGW-STL (British Cal, TW), and LGW-PIT (BA,US). But they can't do it now for whatever reason. (like yield and bla, bla, bla)

Excuse me, LGW-PIT had TW at one point ALSO.
 
sw733
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:45 am

Quoting Ti717 (Reply 119):
Lyon



Quoting Ti717 (Reply 119):
Marseille



Quoting Ti717 (Reply 119):
Bordeaux (Wine run)



Quoting Ti717 (Reply 119):
Nice

Yes, yes, yes, yes - all would make sense

Quoting Ti717 (Reply 119):
Nantes



Quoting Ti717 (Reply 119):
Paris (currently flies to CDG, what about ORY??)



Quoting Ti717 (Reply 119):
Toulouse

Maybe, maybe, maybe

Quoting Ti717 (Reply 119):
Saarbrücken-Forbach



Quoting Ti717 (Reply 119):
Douai-Lens-Béthune-Valenciennes



Quoting Ti717 (Reply 119):
Lille-Kortrijk

Don't see much chance for these...not really enough name recognition, plus I don't know if CO wants to become the Ryanair of trans-atlantic travel
 
CentPIT
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Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:48 am

RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:02 pm

Quoting Joeman (Reply 123):
In a nutshell, major metros such as PIT, STL & CLE will continue to see very slow rises in capacity to these wonderful hellhole hubs and of course a modest increase in capacity to the near rural outposts their major carriers continue to feed into them for bigger and better destinations. The superhubs gain capacity by two fold. That being from more circuits to the major US metros to distribute their growing O&D all over the place and to more and more lavish and prestigious international destinations.

I agree with you 100%. At least Pittsburgh is trying its best to lure a carrier into operating PIT-Europe. The fight is continuing today, the ACAA is not giving up!
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
billreid
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:38 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 92):
Repeating, I first raised it in the context of the question about BUD service. I contined the discussion in light of the ability of CO to expand. CO and DL are very much running into each other and it is not unreasonable to discuss CO's plans without mentioning DL and vice versa, particularly in light of these general wondering type threads that go down the path of "I wonder if XYZ would work...."

This is very interesting considering just who is running the planning department at DL.. How many have moved from CO to DL planning?
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
worldtraveler
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:26 am

I don't know any other than Hauenstein who actually came to DL from Alitalia but was at CO previously as well as Cortelyou who came directly.

Alot of people including me have said that DL management has looked at the airlines that turned themselves around and CO is certainly one of the success stories. Although alot of people don't look at them, Air Canada is also a success story and there are obvious parallels between AC and CO, including DL's intention of a major longhaul fleet order which AC was able to accomplish.

More specific to routes, DL has a 15 year history in the NYC-Europe market as a result of their Pan Am acquisition. It should be expected that at some point DL would make JFK work as part of its overall restructuring. CO obviously was destined to be a major transatlantic player because of its EWR hub. I don't think the fact that CO and DL are becoming strong competitors to Europe is as much about people but about their common NYC hubs which were established long before either carrier was what it is today.

DL and AA both flew to Lyon at one time but neither were strong routes. AF would certainly be a part of making any French routes work; it is not a dig at CO to say that DL does have an advantage in planning new French services because DL and AF have antitrust immunity which allows them to coordinate schedules and fares while CO has chosen not to pursue it. By the same token, NW has an advantage in service to AMS over other carriers because they alone have ATI w/ KLM.
 
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airzim
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2006 1:05 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 128):
More specific to routes, DL has a 15 year history in the NYC-Europe market as a result of their Pan Am acquisition. It should be expected that at some point DL would make JFK work as part of its overall restructuring. CO obviously was destined to be a major transatlantic player because of its EWR hub. I don't think the fact that CO and DL are becoming strong competitors to Europe is as much about people but about their common NYC hubs which were established long before either carrier was what it is today.

Didn't they delete your other thread because of this crap. This last paragraph doesn't even have a logical thought. What in the hell does that last sentence even mean?

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 128):
DL and AA both flew to Lyon at one time but neither were strong routes. AF would certainly be a part of making any French routes work; it is not a dig at CO to say that DL does have an advantage in planning new French services because DL and AF have antitrust immunity which allows them to coordinate schedules and fares while CO has chosen not to pursue it. By the same token, NW has an advantage in service to AMS over other carriers because they alone have ATI w/ KLM.

So which is it? AA and DL both flew to Lyon. They pulled out. But Delta will go in a make it work, because of anti-trust? Absolutely wrong. Wow, but colluding on pricing and schedules on a once a day flight is really a market differentiator. Think of the potential! If you're in your 30's and you think like this, god help America.

The market is miniscule. If it supports any service you'll have to connect to a hub in North America to pray that you can fill it. Anti-trust is not a guarantee of anything let alone services to small regional French cities, and in the case of Delta completely reliant on O&D since there will never be a hub at JFK unless they want to completely lose their shirts. Oh and we have precedent to support this; remember Pan Am?

You continue to show you have no idea what you're talking about.
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 67):
Ps. Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer is at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by itslef but the wrod as a wlohe. Ds.

OKAY! Now, that is very interesting!
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:23 am

Hey Folks. This was a really informative and interesting thread.
 
panamair
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:55 am

Quoting Airzim (Reply 129):
and in the case of Delta completely reliant on O&D since there will never be a hub at JFK unless they want to completely lose their shirts. Oh and we have precedent to support this; remember Pan Am?

The JFK of today is vastly different from the Pan Am days, and even from just a few years ago, thanks primarily to both JetBlue and the AirTrain. While JFK will never (at least not in the immediate future) be able to support the array of domestic destinations like EWR can, it has grown leaps and bounds in terms of O&D domestic passengers in the past 10-15 years since Pan Am. This has overall helped to enhance DL's domestic feeder flights in terms of local passengers as well, thus enhancing the survivability of many of these routes. In addition, DL's costs have come down quite a bit compared to a few years ago, so some of these domestic JFK routes which may have been unsuccessful before, have a much better shot today.

Secondly, Pan Am never had a robust domestic system thus rendering their feeder JFK flights (primarily 727s) completely inefficient, particularly in terms of aircraft utilization. For example, a 727 would spend almost 17 hours on the ground in DTW in between flights to/from JFK. Also, they operated single daily flights in many of these markets, which naturally did not attract many local business travellers, etc. DL and the DCI carriers are able to utilize their a/c much more efficiently using them to CVG or ATL in between JFK, etc., in addition to offering multiple daily flights. For example, BUF-JFK has found quite a following and will be increased to 5 daily this fall, and even up to 6 daily on several days of the week.
 
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airzim
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:08 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 132):
Secondly, Pan Am never had a robust domestic system thus rendering their feeder JFK flights (primarily 727s) completely inefficient, particularly in terms of aircraft utilization. For example, a 727 would spend almost 17 hours on the ground in DTW in between flights to/from JFK. Also, they operated single daily flights in many of these markets, which naturally did not attract many local business travellers, etc. DL and the DCI carriers are able to utilize their a/c much more efficiently using them to CVG or ATL in between JFK, etc., in addition to offering multiple daily flights. For example, BUF-JFK has found quite a following and will be increased to 5 daily this fall, and even up to 6 daily on several days of the week.

While that may be true, there is still finite demand. In fact the Jetblue expansion at Kennedy will only hurt DL's expansion effort since I would argue B6 is tapping into the discretionary traveler market with their low fares. Business travelers will continue to prefer LGA over JFK. Coupled with JFK's capacity issues it's just not possible.
 
DTWAGENT
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:46 am

Well, I just got back from SNN and GLA on USAirways. And let me tell ya. It was the most uncomfortable flight. The B757-200 just does not get it for a full load. On our flight over their were alot of seats that did not recline. On our flight back to PHL everyone was only able to hear the movie in their left ear. But, the crew was just great. Both flights were full and 5 bathrooms just don't get it for a full international flight.

chuck
 
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STT757
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:43 am

23 million vs 5 million, that's not as competitive as the example of AA and UAL at ORD which you provided.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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STT757
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RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:22 am

Worldtravler,

My point is that sometime the DL backers don't give CO the credit I feel they deserve, they have been committed to building EWR for 20 years (1986).

Even though DL has had Pan Am's JFK Trans-Atlantic routes for 14 years I know DL has never invested the time, money or man power into JFK as CO has in EWR.

I feel DL is johnny come lately, they are expanding by taking their widebodies off domestic routes and putting them on International routes but it's not that easy.

If CO were to have zero growth annually from now on it would take DL 10-15 years to catch up to CO at EWR, CO has been serving EWR-Europe for 20 years. They invested $1.3 Billion 4 years ago expanding EWR to meet future growth, they have invested in up grading their entire fleet of 41 757-200s for International service (Business First Interiors, AVOD, Winglets), they have 30 787s on order.

They have positioned themselves for future growth and to sustain the capacity they have now, myself as someone who flew Pan Am and who as a kid would go to the World Port to watch the PM Trans-Atlantic push from the roof top parking lot has a tremendous amount of love and nostalgia about the World Port. However that being said it's time has come and gone, it's nice that DL is adding all these new International flights. The terrible part is that they have to arrive at such an inadequate facility.

Untill DL puts half the effort into JFK that CO has over the years I don't consider comparisons like AA,UAL at ORD fair.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
coerj
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Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:49 pm

RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:11 am

Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 138):
It was the most uncomfortable flight. The B757-200 just does not get it for a full load.

I understand why you and other people have this attitude towards the B757, as it was not made to fly international. In addition to CPH I flew to ARN from EWR which is one of the longest routes flown with a 757. Yes I'd prefer to be on a 777 or 767 but that is in no way feasible. The 757 is an extremely practical aircraft and it is the only way CO can fly to so many places. If CO didn't fly the 757 over the pond we'd see CO's European agenda cut in half.

It's as simple as this, the typical customer doesn't want to fly through AMS to get to OSL, and they're willing to make a small sacrifice in comfort for it.
 
joeman
Posts: 869
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:14 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 143):
They invested $1.3 Billion 4 years ago expanding EWR to meet future growt

CO better cut CLE some more since its so "weak".
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:29 pm

It would make sens to consider new routes to following cities :
(757 equipment )
-Basel ( Pharmaceutical industry)
-Nuremberg (heavy export oriented high-tech industry and tourist place)
-Malaga ( tourist center )
-Marseille (tourist center,base for cruise-ships )
-Porto (big tourist and industrial center )
-Palermo (large italian immigration population in New York)
-Izmir (out of 757 range-767 range required -large industrial and tourist center )

[Edited 2006-08-25 07:30:15]
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
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STT757
Posts: 14221
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:39 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 147):
Palermo (large italian immigration population in New York)

Too far for the 757 from EWR, 4,000 nm is about the limit.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5584
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:49 pm

Wow, this thread does go on and on ... minor factoid:

Browsing the CAA traffic stats, they list EWR-BFS traffic as 10,146 for the month of July (provisional data). Assuming CO's 757 is the only thing flying EWR-BFS, that's a load factor in excess of 95% for the month.

There is a route begging for a bigger plane.
 
Humberside
Posts: 3239
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:44 am

RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 141):
Browsing the CAA traffic stats, they list EWR-BFS traffic as 10,146 for the month of July (provisional data). Assuming CO's 757 is the only thing flying EWR-BFS, that's a load factor in excess of 95% for the month.

There is a route begging for a bigger plane.

Or a frequency increase (which is far more likely since CO dont have any spare larger aircraft)
Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:05 am

STT,
thank you for taking the time to rationally explain your position. Others on this forum would do well to learn from your ability to rationally discuss issues.

While you are correct that CO has invested considerably in EWR and that DL spent a long time neglecting JFK, I don’t think it is correct to say that DL will never catch up with CO or be a large enough force to be significant in NYC.

DL has added S. America service and London service in the space of a six months which now leaves Asia as the only region which DL does not serve from JFK and I expect that to be added within the next year. DL has added several new cities to Europe this year and promises to do at least that many every year for the next several years.

But I’m not sure that is really the point.

There is a point where DL and CO will part ways over their expansion plans. DL will not likely make JFK as its primary gateway to Asia although for the near future that looks like what CO will do; DL says it wants to develop Asia from LAX and ATL which is still the world’s largest hub by a very long shot with over 240 destinations serve from there. DL also will probably not use JFK as its primary gateway to Latin America; while they are many markets that are large from JFK, ATL is better positioned geographically to serve more of the US from ATL and DL is now embarking on LAX expansion. DL is developing Africa from Atlanta and JFK but they indicate their primarily gateway to Africa will be Atlanta.

CO and DL will continue to expand to Europe in the next couple years and there will be several new significant markets both carriers will add. But the vast majority of the new routes will be filling in the holes in each other’s route system, partly because both will have very well developed NYC-Europe route systems.

A lot of people get really bent out of shape over the CO-DL competition but it is exactly to be expected given the shared hub. AA and UA were very competitive at ORD for several years and it is only because the airport cannot expand flights that the competition has died down.

I don’t know what kind of credit you want CO to have but they have led the industry for years in a number of metrics. I have certainly acknowledged that.

Interestingly, I think people here are way too ready to bash DL and say they will not amount to anything in NYC.

In reality NYC is big enough for 2 large airline hubs, even if they are spread over 2 states.

We will all get along a lot better if all of us will acknowledge the contributions both carriers (along with others, to be sure) have made and continue to make to NYC. All of us benefit from an industry that has multiple strong players and NYC is best served by an increasingly long list of cities that are connected to it, regardless of who serves them.

Can we agree on that?
 
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STT757
Posts: 14221
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:19 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 143):
Can we agree on that?

Sure, I have nothing against DL. I've flown DL several times, M88s, 727s, 757s and L-1011s.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:33 am

yeah.

thanks for your maturity.
 
joeman
Posts: 869
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:49 am

A thread was started last year RE: CLE-LGW noting that it appeared that its seasonal status was going to be extended beyond September 30, 2006. Turns out it won't be.
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4323
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:53 am

Quoting Joeman (Reply 146):
A thread was started last year RE: CLE-LGW noting that it appeared that its seasonal status was going to be extended beyond September 30, 2006. Turns out it won't be.

True. Our bid packets for the end of September show the season is coming to a close, yet again for another year.

See you next year flight 66/67.
You can't cure stupid
 
DTWAGENT
Posts: 753
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:16 am

RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:53 pm

Yes I noticed that DL, AA and US all had B757 at SNN waiting for departure. AA was to BOS, DL to JFK, US to PHL. And CO to EWR.

I hope they are making money on these routes using this type of aircraft.

Chuck
 
DLBOIFIN
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:51 am

RE: CO's New Transatlantic Routes

Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:11 pm

Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 148):
Yes I noticed that DL, AA and US all had B757 at SNN waiting for departure.

No way, DL is not operating 757 over the Atlantic at the moment. You have seen 767 from DL.

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