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miamix707
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:28 am

What´s also sad is how the actions of a few extremists can come back to affect a whole race and religion etc. The jihad against the "evil west" is starting to make life very difficult for all the muslims.

If the man were wearing thick leather jackets in summer time, common sense would be to take it off to prevent anyone from overreacting; they got kicked off the flight. Racism is stupid and all but all of you after seeing someone wearing such clothes in the summer time, about to board a plane where everyone else´s wearing flip flops and shorts.. don´t tell me it wouldn´t cross your mind these could be islamic loonies. C´mon now, let´s be honest for a second  Wink
 
blrsea
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 50):
What´s also sad is how the actions of a few extremists can come back to affect a whole race and religion etc. The jihad against the "evil west" is starting to make life very difficult for all the muslims.

Yup, thats the unfortunate truth. But who is going to tell the brainwashed terrorists that?
 
FlyKev
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:37 am

This is anotehr example of why we need to introduce a mandatory clothignc hange before boarding. Everyones clothes should be removed and stored, and everyone is to redress in airline issued blue shorts and white t-shirts.
Yet you'd still have people compalining about people because they may look even the slightest bit middle eastern.
So every middle eastern eprsons a terrorist? Every muslim persons full of hate?
This isnt Profiing, this is Religious intolerance. Just because these people spoke arabic, theya re terrorists?
The passengers who demanded they are removed claimed they were acting suspiciously, really? Or were the passengers just paranoid?
Now as much as I wont profile, but however, this flight is a charter flight, therefore meaning it will be full of many people, whom are intollerant, read The Sun and believe utter bullh*t. Therefore they are intollerant, and have a severe lack of understanding for how other people are.
Oha nd the passengers who felt they should have offloaded the arabs, why dont you offload yourselves.
Fine. We can be vigilant, but this was pathetic.

Kev.
The white zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only
 
jmc757
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:28 am

While everyone seems caught up on the clothing debate, lets consider the timings of flight ZB613:

depart Malaga 03:05
arrive Manchester 04:50

Even in Malaga in August there's a chill in the air at 3 in the morning. And Manchester at 5 in the morning there is definately a chill in the air. Not to mention that aircraft cabins do get rather cold in the early hours of the morning. Who can blame them for wearing jackets? Its not their fault the great British public insist on shorts and flip flops no matter what hour of the day "because we're on holiday".

[Edited 2006-08-21 20:29:58]
 
jacobin777
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:06 am

Quoting NWCOflyer (Reply 49):
. I think that Monarch did the right thing, by placing these men in a hotel and sending them out the next day (though it should have never happened in the first place). They were kind of between a rock and a hard spot.



Quoting Jmc757 (Reply 29):

They shouldn't. But it seems a number of people chose to offload themselves from the flight due to concerns. Thats where it should have ended. If they didn't want to fly then thats their problem. Thats when Monarch can say "we're not responsible for your opinions".

Agree...Monarch didn't do the right thing..they chose to side with the mutineers (who were behaving irrationaly as well as prejudiced) rather than letting the gents fly....
"Up the Irons!"
 
gooner
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:15 am

Quoting Flynlr (Reply 12):

most of the terrorism in Britain in the 1970s and 80s was commited by the IRA their bombs and weapons usually bought with american money eg NORAID where was the world wide war on terror then ?
 
trex8
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:25 am

Quoting Gooner (Reply 56):
most of the terrorism in Britain in the 1970s and 80s was commited by the IRA their bombs and weapons usually bought with american money eg NORAID where was the world wide war on terror then ?

if you haven't figured it out by now, let me make it simple, until someone kills an American and especially on American soil, the US government doesn't care less who else or where else they might be killing!  sarcastic 
(from one yank who missed getting blown up by the IRA etc in the Knighstbridge and Regents Park bombings by about 15 minutes each time!)
 
gooner
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:34 am

to Trex8 dont worry i figured it out years ago as did the vast majority of the population of Britain
 
GDB
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:12 am

BCAL, though you can see maybe the Capts predicament, what has this to do with any issues in politics?
Trotting out 'Blair and Bush lied' means nothing, think they were the first?
Islamic terrorism against aircraft pre-dates them by a long way.

(And I note the thread in Non Av, about charges being brought against some of those over the bomb plot last week, is very short of those who claimed the whole thing was a hoax, the idiots).

Perhaps a bunch a Daily Mail reading curtain twitchers on the flight are to blame-that's a stereotype too I know, but one that does not get innocent people thrown off an aircraft.
 
hmmmm...
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:42 am

The airlines have always reserved the right to bar travel to anyone they deem a risk to the flight, at their discretion, and at no time do they have to legally justify their actions. You make people nervous, you get removed. That applies to all of us.

In the US, a muslim was praying out loud before the flight took off, that scared a lot of passengers, who had no idea what the hell he was praying for. Nor did the airline. He could have prayed silently, but no, he had to make a scene with his incantations to Allah, and in the process, unsettle the passengers, who have a right not to be unsettled in such an overt manner on an airplane.

We have to draw the line at what people can do and get away with.

Would you board an airliner with a young muslim male wearing a red bandana, looking straight ahead, dead serious, and praying to Allah? Yet, according to the dhimmi logic here, why not, right? He's not breaking any laws.

The fact is, nobody would.

In this day and age, we can not afford to err on the side of political correctness when the stakes are so huge. Political correctness created this problem. Soon when another muslim plot is successful, and ten airliners are taken out of the sky, people will say, "How come nobody did anything when the signs were there?"
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
trex8
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:53 am

stopping the "crazed muslim" might stop a few amateur wannabes who probably couldn't get their act together to even zip their fly after going to the lav but do you think the real hard core types will act in a way to make themselves stand out like a sore thumb??
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:58 pm

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 60):
he airlines have always reserved the right to bar travel to anyone they deem a risk to the flight, at their discretion, and at no time do they have to legally justify their actions.

the story shows that it was NOT a decision of the airline, but the airline yielding under severe pressure to the will of some passengers

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 60):
You make people nervous, you get removed. That applies to all of us.

What qualifies as "make people nervous" ? Just sitting somewhere, having a jacket on when others do NOT, and having somewhat different looks ? So that you in the end depend on the goodwill of fellow passengers ? sounds like new laws arriving !

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 60):
a muslim was praying out loud before the flight took off, that scared a lot of passengers, who had no idea what the hell he was praying for. Nor did the airline. He could have prayed silently, but no, he had to make a scene with his incantations to Allah, and in the process, unsettle the passengers,

completely irrelevant, as you now here describe somebody with extreme behaviour. A completely wrong comparison.
 
qr332
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:39 pm

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 60):
In the US, a muslim was praying out loud before the flight took off, that scared a lot of passengers, who had no idea what the hell he was praying for. Nor did the airline. He could have prayed silently, but no, he had to make a scene with his incantations to Allah, and in the process, unsettle the passengers, who have a right not to be unsettled in such an overt manner on an airplane

So let me get this straight... praying out loud is now grounds for removal from the aircraft, in your opinion, simply because the guy could be praying prior to a terrorist attack? In that case, you might as well not put Muslims on the a/c at all, since they might unsettle the passangers, and their skin colour and language might cause distress  Yeah sure

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 60):
We have to draw the line at what people can do and get away with.

Yeah, I mean praying out loud? That has to be the crime of the century! Whatever happened to the West being known for freedom of religion?!

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 60):
Would you board an airliner with a young muslim male wearing a red bandana, looking straight ahead, dead serious, and praying to Allah? Yet, according to the dhimmi logic here, why not, right? He's not breaking any laws.

The fact is, nobody would.

In this day and age, we can not afford to err on the side of political correctness when the stakes are so huge. Political correctness created this problem. Soon when another muslim plot is successful, and ten airliners are taken out of the sky, people will say, "How come nobody did anything when the signs were there?"

First of all, how many Muslims do you see walking around wearing red bandanas? Second of all, so being dead serious while praying to God is now considered a crime as well? Wow... i'm going to adjust my praying in English and making sure I throw a few jokes in there to make sure i'm not too serious. What you fail to see, Hmm, is this attitude will do much more to hurt you than it will to help you.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
JGPH1A
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:38 pm

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 60):
In the US, a muslim was praying out loud before the flight took off, that scared a lot of passengers, who had no idea what the hell he was praying for. Nor did the airline. He could have prayed silently, but no, he had to make a scene with his incantations to Allah, and in the process, unsettle the passengers, who have a right not to be unsettled in such an overt manner on an airplane.

If this kind of thing "unsettles" you, then don't ever fly Royal Brunei. They have an Islamic prayer played of the PA system on board prior to departure. Oh no - they must ALL be terrorists, praying out loud - abandon ship !!

Please... get a grip.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:14 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 63):
. i'm going to adjust my praying in English and making sure I throw a few jokes in there to make sure i'm not too serious.

well, on Western airlines, the NON-Muslim passengers will have votes before departure. If you are lucky you will have a majority of Yes, if NOT you nicely have to wait for the next departure, and of course hope that you will NOT "make people nervous" next time .  sarcastic   wave 

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 64):
fly Royal Brunei. They have an Islamic prayer played of the PA system on board prior to departure.

no problems with them as long as they do NOT operate between Britain and Spanish holiday resorts. THEN, the real problems would start.  wink 
 
jaysit
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:06 am

What are "Arab looking" men?

The average yahoo flying Monarch (or USAirways for that matter) probably has no clue.

They probably think that the Indian Hindu software geek in Seat 12A is an "Arab looking" man while the real Arab in Seat 14C is probably mistaken for an "Italian looking" man.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 66):
ndu software geek in Seat 12A is an "Arab looking" man while the real Arab in Seat 14C is probably mistaken for an "Italian looking" man.

didn't you know that Indians are "Arab looking" and Arabs "Italian looking" ?  Smile smile
 
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B747-437B
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 65):
on Western airlines, the NON-Muslim passengers will have votes before departure. If you are lucky you will have a majority of Yes, if NOT you nicely have to wait for the next departure

What about cases where the terrorists pretend to convert to other religions so that they can vote for their fellow terrorists to board the plane?

Don't underestimate the terrorists....
 
jacobin777
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:51 am

Watching Donny Deutsch TV show on CNBC...interview with David Neelman..he is more interested having pax having a "trusted traveler card", as well as profiling behaviour rather than skin colour, race, religion...etc....

of course he needs to be cautious in what he says, but it does seem to him that profiling behaviour is more important than anything else...and he feels safe flying with his wife and nine kids.. spin 
"Up the Irons!"
 
hmmmm...
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:41 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 62):
the story shows that it was NOT a decision of the airline, but the airline yielding under severe pressure to the will of some passengers

The airline is there to serve the passengers. Not to cater to the whim of one man who wants to make scene. This is not the middle east.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 62):
What qualifies as "make people nervous" ? Just sitting somewhere, having a jacket on when others do NOT, and having somewhat different looks ? So that you in the end depend on the goodwill of fellow passengers ? sounds like new laws arriving !

Not new laws. A new reality that the terrorists, and hundreds of millions of islamics who support their cause, have made for everyone else. But instead of attacking them, you attack the passengers who are only trying to defend themselves and stay alive.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 63):
So let me get this straight... praying out loud is now grounds for removal from the aircraft, in your opinion, simply because the guy could be praying prior to a terrorist attack? In that case, you might as well not put Muslims on the a/c at all, since they might unsettle the passangers, and their skin colour and language might cause distress

Well this is what it is going to come to. And who do we have to blame for that? Islam and the air transport system in the western world are no longer compatible as it has been repeatedly targeted by terrorists of arab/islamic background.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 63):
Yeah, I mean praying out loud? That has to be the crime of the century! Whatever happened to the West being known for freedom of religion?!

One does not have to commit a crime to be taken off an airplane or denied boarding. Airlines reserve the right to deny service to anyone it suspects could be a problem. No crime is required. Even if they suspect you are intoxicated, that is enough to deny you a flight. So imagine if they suspect you could be a terrorist? Makes perfect sense. For once. If it was a crime, such a person would be arrested and jailed. Instead, they will be removed from the flight and not offered another flight until they learn how to behave in this new reality.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 63):
First of all, how many Muslims do you see walking around wearing red bandanas? Second of all, so being dead serious while praying to God is now considered a crime as well? Wow... i'm going to adjust my praying in English and making sure I throw a few jokes in there to make sure i'm not too serious. What you fail to see, Hmm, is this attitude will do much more to hurt you than it will to help you.

If I see this on an airplane, that becomes a huge red flag just as if I saw a guy trying to light his shoe. Perhaps he just doesn't like his shoe, and perhaps the muslim is just praying for the death of infidels as a habit. Or maybe, just maybe, the guy is indeed trying to light a bomb, and the muslim is indeed a terrorist. If passengers had this level of alertness on 9/11, those hijackers would have stood out like a sore thumb.

This is not to say that all terrorists will look and behave conspiciously. In fact, this is not about profiling as a way to fight terrorism. This is about the the validity of the concern of passengers who have a right not to fly on a plane with someone that is consciously exhibiting appearance and behavior known to be consistent with previous terrorist activity.

Because of islamic terror, airports have become such serious places. One can not joke about bombs, or guns, or hijacking. One can not argue with security staff, one can not carry liquids onboard now. One can not carry pocket knives, nail files, and the like. All because of islamic terror experience. So it is only fair and logical in this new reality that it be incumbent upon muslims to also curb their behavior when they use the public transport system in the western world.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
jacobin777
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:17 pm

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 70):
and hundreds of millions of islamics who support their cause,

how about rounding up to a billion..that should cover it to almost all the Muslims on this planet... sarcastic ....

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 70):
But instead of attacking them, you attack the passengers who are only trying to defend themselves and stay alive.

 rotfl  rotfl  rotfl ...defending themselves and stay alive? were the other passengers being attacked?

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 70):
Islam and the air transport system in the western world are no longer compatible as it has been repeatedly targeted by terrorists of arab/islamic background.

no..that is why thousands of Muslims fly every week w/out incidence....yup...I think like in the "Scarlet Letter"...muslims should wear a "I'm a Muslim" shirt, so we can be escorted out of every flight if someone irrationally deems us a "threat"..... sarcastic 

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 70):
Instead, they will be removed from the flight and not offered another flight until they learn how to behave in this new reality.

sure..the tens of thousands of muslims who fly everyday don't know how to deal or deal with reality... sarcastic 

Do you have anything intelligent to say?  confused 
"Up the Irons!"
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:11 pm

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 70):
Not to cater to the whim of one man who wants to make scene. This is not the middle east.

the two men did NOT want to make a scene, did NOT make a scene, and did NOT make prayers loudly. --- And your assumption that making scenes and to behave irrationally is the normal thing in the Middle East is weird.

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 70):
But instead of attacking them, you attack the passengers who are only trying to defend themselves and stay alive.

I do NOT "attack" anybody. And the topic is NOT the action of terrorists, the topic is the action of panicking passengers feeling threatened and behaving irrationally.
 
StocklaAC
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:18 pm

For those of you interested in my two cents, i would have to agree with all those who say that the men in question should sue the A** off monarch. This is true racial profiling and it is this sort of behvaiour that is causing many of the problems in our society today. whyilst i freely admit it seems that the masjority of terrorists appear to be muslim this does not mean that they all are - far from it.

Overall, i think that even though we are still in a heightened state of security we should still have to have serious evidence for removing a passenger instead of doing it solely on looks!
 
qr332
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:25 pm

Wow... the amount of racism in your posts is disgusting, Hmmm..., I never thought anybody could be this ignorant, especially somebody living in a city as multi-cultural as Toronto!

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 70):
Well this is what it is going to come to. And who do we have to blame for that? Islam and the air transport system in the western world are no longer compatible as it has been repeatedly targeted by terrorists of arab/islamic background.

 rotfl  So you are going to deny 1.4 billion people their rights to pray on an aircraft because it could be praying for the infedels to die? If they didn't pray like that before, after you start treating them the way you are suggesting then they will be sure to pray for that sort of crap. Islam and the air transport system are no longer compatible, eh?  rotfl 

And what, do you think terrorism appeared because Muslims want to ruin your flight experience? Terrorism is the direct result of Western action in the Middle East, it did not appear because Muslims are "jealous" like many people like to think. Islamic terrorism appeared because of things like the Arab-Israeli conflict, the Iraq war, America's involvmenet with Iran in the 1950s, America's support or several dictators, and many other reasons.

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 70):
One does not have to commit a crime to be taken off an airplane or denied boarding. Airlines reserve the right to deny service to anyone it suspects could be a problem. No crime is required. Even if they suspect you are intoxicated, that is enough to deny you a flight. So imagine if they suspect you could be a terrorist? Makes perfect sense. For once. If it was a crime, such a person would be arrested and jailed. Instead, they will be removed from the flight and not offered another flight until they learn how to behave in this new reality.

Fine, if you're going to use that logic, why don't you just not allow anybody with an Arabic name or citizenship onto an aircraft? It might teach them how to behave in this new reality, and how they shouldn't dare board a plane because they could be terrorists! This is serously pathetic...

So tell me, if there is suddenly turbulence, and the fat white lady at the back screams out "Jesus Christ!", its perfectly fine, right? But if the Arab lady wearing a hijab says "Bismillah" or "Allahu Akbar", she should be punished for that and taught how to behave in this new reality?  Yeah sure

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 70):
If I see this on an airplane, that becomes a huge red flag just as if I saw a guy trying to light his shoe. Perhaps he just doesn't like his shoe, and perhaps the muslim is just praying for the death of infidels as a habit. Or maybe, just maybe, the guy is indeed trying to light a bomb, and the muslim is indeed a terrorist. If passengers had this level of alertness on 9/11, those hijackers would have stood out like a sore thumb.

I still don't see you whole bandana point, I have lived in the Arab world all my life and never have I seen people walking around wearing bandanas; what makes you think someone would wear them on a plane? Secondly, why is praying automatically a red flag? Because he could be praying for the death of infidels? If hes already been through security, and his baggage has been thoroughly searched, what right do you have to suspect him of anything?

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 70):
This is not to say that all terrorists will look and behave conspiciously. In fact, this is not about profiling as a way to fight terrorism. This is about the the validity of the concern of passengers who have a right not to fly on a plane with someone that is consciously exhibiting appearance and behavior known to be consistent with previous terrorist activity

There we go! Hmm has givin it straight out! "Appearance and behaviour known to be consistent with previous terrorist activity". So the American government have been known to start a war which has cost 100,000 their lives, can we kick Americans out of our planes? Israel has been at war with Palestinians for 58 years, can we kick Israelis and Jews out of Jordan? Or, tell you what, since its mostly white politicians who are causing problems in the Middle East, we'll stop all white people from flying on our aircraft! They are consistent with the appearance of those starting wars in the Middle East...

At least you've shown your true colours, the passangers can go shove it if they don't like what I look like or the language I speak. I have every right to fly on an aircraft if I have been thoroughly checkd, and nobody can deny me that right simply because I am Arab. People like you are the real problem here, Hmm, it is people like you who are spreading more and more hate and causing more prejudice against us Arabs everyday.

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 70):
Because of islamic terror, airports have become such serious places. One can not joke about bombs, or guns, or hijacking. One can not argue with security staff, one can not carry liquids onboard now. One can not carry pocket knives, nail files, and the like. All because of islamic terror experience. So it is only fair and logical in this new reality that it be incumbent upon muslims to also curb their behavior when they use the public transport system in the western world.

So your advocating collective punishment then for 1.4 billion people simply because a few hundred have taken part in extremist actions? That is less than 0.001% of all Muslims...
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
gkirk
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:32 pm

What a load of rubbish. These 2 pax must have been delighted at staying in AGP for a while longer instead of returning to Mankychester  stirthepot 
In all seriousness though, it would have been less stressful for them to have travelled on a different flight where nobody would have stared at them the whole flight.
Sure, Monarch should perhaps give them some compensation, say a couple of free return tickets to anywhere in the MON network.
As for suing Monarch, don't be absurd  Yeah sure
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
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B747-437B
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:30 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 74):
the fat white lady

Was there any need to call the white lady fat? I fear you may be equally guilty about propogating nasty racial stereotypes.
 
qr332
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:38 pm

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 76):
Was there any need to call the white lady fat? I fear you may be equally guilty about propogating nasty racial stereotypes.

Why? I'm fat, and I know plenty of white ladies that aren't fat... that was just being stupid, nothing meant by it. There is a difference between making a joke and suggesting that Muslims should not be allowed on a flight simply because they might make other pax feel uncomfortable.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:51 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 74):
Terrorism is the direct result of Western action in the Middle East. Islamic terrorism appeared because of things like the Arab-Israeli conflict, the Iraq war, America's involvmenet with Iran in the 1950s, America's support or several dictators

Oh, pleeeease spare us of this apologist nonsense, will ya?  Yeah sure No matter how long the list of your pathetic excuses will be it still won't justify the cowardice of terrorists.
BTW, how does Pakistani-sponsored Muslim terrorism in India, southern Thailand, Philippines, Bali bombings, Casablanca bombings, etc. fit your blame-West formula?
 
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B747-437B
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:21 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 77):
that was just being stupid, nothing meant by it

Unfortunately, it is not for you to determine how other people may interpret your words or actions. People will interpret however they choose, no matter your intentions.

Similarly, it is not for the 2 men removed from this flight to determine how their fellow passengers interpret their actions. Whether or not societal ignorance contributed to the interpretation is a matter of dispute. However, it remains a fact that persons acting in a manner atypical to those of their immediate social peers (and that would include their fellow passengers on the flight) will always attract attention, often negative.

To borrow from your example, a fat white woman traveling on her own in Saudi Arabia without a veil would also be denied boarding on a flight. Why? Because of pressures from the immediate social group.

Personally, I feel that neither denial is right when I apply my own set of progressive moral standards, but we have to realise that "diversity" in the world also includes diverse levels of tolerance and acceptance. Some people are more welcoming and trusting of strangers than others.
 
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:38 pm

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 79):
Unfortunately, it is not for you to determine how other people may interpret your words or actions. People will interpret however they choose, no matter your intentions.

That is completely true. As soon as an unwise statement is out, people may take it in whatever way THEY want to have it. You of course can apologize for it, but canNOT make it undone. THAT is why I have begun to refer infuriating posts to moderators, and NOT to reply in ANY way .

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 79):
However, it remains a fact that persons acting in a manner atypical to those of their immediate social peers (and that would include their fellow passengers on the flight) will always attract attention, often negative.

And here you jump onto the problem. I am used to have "atypical looks" just around the place where I live. And I happen(ed) to "attract attention" in case of doubt "negative". Do I now depend on the goodwill of the "typical looks" folks when travelling ? or when photographying airplanes or helicopters ? or don't you support my notion that I, after having gone through "inspection" am allowed to continue .... ?
 
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 80):
Do I now depend on the goodwill of the "typical looks" folks when travelling ? or when photographying airplanes or helicopters ? or don't you support my notion that I, after having gone through "inspection" am allowed to continue .... ?

SHOULD you need to depend on the goodwill of your immediate social peers to continue functioning? - ABSOLUTELY NOT.

DO you need to depend on it in reality - ABSOLUTELY!

It is all well and good to take the moral high ground and speak of equality and civil rights, but we all know that those utopian principles go out the window when human beings are confronted with fear. We have seen that both on individual level (as this case in Malaga demonstrated) as well as on the macro-societal level (as detention centers such as Guantanamo Bay have demonstrated).

Is it right? No. Is it reality? Yes.

As such you can continue to function by ignoring the reality and hence expose yourself to possible societal repurcussions. You can also modify your outward behaviour to fit in with social expectations and hence stand out less.

Some people choose to take the former path and become civil rights heroes. Others choose the path of least resistance and comply with all requests. Most choose somewhere inbetween , where they will put up with some levels of discomfort but eventually reach a point and snap.

The Monarch passengers who walked off the plane reached that point (in their perception) and snapped. On the other hand, I am sure plenty of innocent persons who may be mistaken for "terrorists" will also reach ther equivalent points and snap by speaking out like you have done. Equilibrium exists in the intersecting sets of those two scales of tolerance.
 
jaysit
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 79):
To borrow from your example, a fat white woman traveling on her own in Saudi Arabia without a veil would also be denied boarding on a flight. Why? Because of pressures from the immediate social group.

Your analogy doesn't quite work.

Even Aishwarya Rai or Salma Hayek, neither of whom is fat nor white (but certifiably gorgeous), would be asked to veil up or be denied boarding on a Saudi flight. Its not pressure from the immediate social group on board that flight; its the law, awful though it may be, and the obnoxious and ugly Muttawa (or the Mutts as I call them) who roam around Saudi airports unfettered would insist on it being applied.

In this case (and we don't have all the facts on hand), some passengers singled out these 2 "Arab looking" men and had them booted off the plane for acting suspiciously. Does anyone know if "acting suspiciously" meant just being "Arab looking" or muttering "by the sword of the Prophet, you drunken sodden British louts will sizzle nicely when this sardine can goes up in flames?"
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
access-air
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:48 am

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 5):
Remember: The terrorist Timothy McVeigh was
associated with fundamental Christian groups.

Oh really???? Where did you get this information??? Can you back that statement up???

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 22):
2) Pretty much every religious extemist (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh) calls for the death of anyone not following their way.

Hahaha, thats funny......Ill lhave to let my Pastor know that...that if we dont get people that come to our church and dont become Christians will have to be killed on their way out after services...
Where did you get this little gem of MIS-INFORMATION?????

Quoting Djmatthews (Reply 26):
was absolutely disgusted when I heard about this..... What is the world coming to?

My dear friend, unfortunately its the sign of the times we are living in.....

Quoting Tootallsd (Reply 42):
The point is that pilots are not gods. They were in a hard situation and in this case made the wrong decision. Hopefully it will be discussed making people more aware of what should be done when this DOES happen again.

Well, yes they are gods of their aircraft and they are both legally and morally responsible for their passengers on the aircraft that they are in command of. So as to not cause a major upset better to offload 2 passengers than to cancel a flight or have a riot on your hands.
Like I said, Its a sign of the times and as long as our respective governments prepetuate the the fear of terrosist attacks it wont stop.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 74):
Terrorism is the direct result of Western action in the Middle East, it did not appear because Muslims are "jealous" like many people like to think. Islamic terrorism appeared because of things like the Arab-Israeli conflict, the Iraq war, America's involvmenet with Iran in the 1950s, America's support or several dictators, and many other reasons.

No my dear friend, the answer simply is that Muslims hate the Jews.... The conflict goes back to biblical times and continues and will continue until the Muslims have been satisfied that they have eliminated Isreal and every country that supports it...Even if that means by blowing themselves up and killing inncocent people in the process....What would the Muslim world do if Christian extremists did the same thing the Muslims are doing?
Eventually, no one would be left.....theyd all be dead....

Until that sort of thing happens we will be fighting an invisable and flawed ideology that puts no value on human life whatsoever.

Okayt Ill stop there before the Admin find something to delete my post for...

Access-Air
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:07 am

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 83):
outward behaviour to fit in

-
my "outward behaviour" and all those things DO FIT IN ! so that this has never been my problem at ANY TIME. I however am NOT ready to take facial surgery.
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:21 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 66):
They probably think that the Indian Hindu software geek in Seat 12A is an "Arab looking" man while the real Arab in Seat 14C is probably mistaken for an "Italian looking" man.

Absolutely right!! Post 9/11, quite a few misguided and ignorant Americans went about attacking Indians and Hindu temples under the belief that they were striking back at the ones who brought down their WTC.....similar incidents occured here in Canada too......this can be attributed to the utter ignorance that the average American has about the world beyond the East and West coasts....  Big grin
 
qr332
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:22 am

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 84):
Did they act atypical? Absolutely.

Is that a crime. Absolutely not.

However, micro-societies such as a small peer group of airline passengers tend to impose their own sets of standards that do not always correspond exactly to legal definitions.

And the whole point of anti-discrimination laws is to make srue that small peer groups with racist ideas do not impose their thoughts on other.

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 84):
While that speaks well of your open minded and progressive thinking, you should also be well aware that many others (both within and outside the Middle East) do not share those progressive attitudes. Similarly, while plenty of people in the Western world are perfectly willing to tolerate and even embrace diversity from visitors and immigrants, there are others who are not.

I am fully aware of that, although the government must make sure that those who are not progressive do not effect people simply because of race and colour, all around the world. Believe it or not, tolerance for Westerners in the Middle East is much higher than in the West; I have heard countless stories of Arabs being harassed but have never heard an American or a British person complain about harrassment in the Middle East because they were non-Muslim. As for the veil thing, you'd be surprised about how many Muslim women do not wear the veil... this is almost non-existent in the Gulf, but is widespread in the rest of the Arab world, and it shows that yet another stereotype is completley false.

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 84):
Sometimes pragmatism demands that one adopts the path of least resistance. Is that the morally correct thing to do in retrospect? Possibly not. Could it be the smart thing to do in the context at the time? Probably.

I neither condone nor support the actions either of the passengers or of the airline. That does not mean that I do not understand where they are coming from and why they acted the way they did.

I also understand where they are coming from, but that does not mean it is right. I do condemn their actions because they had absolutley no basis for their claim other than the fact that these people were Arab and that they were wearing jackets - something which isn't surprising at all considering that most Arabs are used to hot weather and get cold easily.

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 86):
No my dear friend, the answer simply is that Muslims hate the Jews.... The conflict goes back to biblical times and continues and will continue until the Muslims have been satisfied that they have eliminated Isreal and every country that supports it...Even if that means by blowing themselves up and killing inncocent people in the process....What would the Muslim world do if Christian extremists did the same thing the Muslims are doing?
Eventually, no one would be left.....theyd all be dead....

I just love it when people take a very complicated issue and make it seem like they have it all figured out. Tell me, then, why terrorists have struck in cities such as Doha, Qatar and Amman, Jordan - the latter costing dozens of Arabs, mostly Musim, their life? What about the London tube bombing? 9/11? Its not about one issue, its about a large amount of issues, and it is not simple at all. And, FYI, Western extremists arguably are doing the same in Iraq, Israel, etc, except that instead of hijacks and suicide bombings they use missles and tanks. Compare the amount of Western civilians killed at the hands of terrorists to the amount of Muslim civilians killed at the hands of the West/Israel over the past few decades then you might get an understanding of why such extremist groups have appeared.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
jaysit
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 86):
No my dear friend, the answer simply is that Muslims hate the Jews.... The conflict goes back to biblical times and continues and will continue until the Muslims have been satisfied that they have eliminated Isreal and every country that supports it...

My dear clueless friend.

Which "biblical times" do you refer to?

Or are history texts in American classrooms written by those who failed history?

Given that the Prophet Muhammed was born only in the 7th Century AD, there were no Muslims during "biblical times."

As for Jews in Muslim lands after the 7th century, they had a far better time in Muslim lands than they did in Christian Europe. In fact, the first military conflict between Muslims and Jews was the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, a political war and not a religious one.

Please do pick up a history text. I know that most of us living in this fair land of ours are challenged when it comes to basic knowledge of the world beyond our shores, but do you really have to make a display of it? Please. Have a heart. Others are watching.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
miamix707
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 74):
And what, do you think terrorism appeared because Muslims want to ruin your flight experience? Terrorism is the direct result of Western action in the Middle East, it did not appear because Muslims are "jealous" like many people like to think. Islamic terrorism appeared because of things like the Arab-Israeli conflict, the Iraq war, America's involvmenet with Iran in the 1950s, America's support or several dictators, and many other reasons.

lol I've said a lot more intelligent things than this and my posts have been removed quickly. You islamists even hate each other and have fought against each other at times, the blame israel and usa rethoric is not winning you much sympathy anymore, except from all the hippies and pot-smoking peace activists.

QR, btw it's because of ppl like you that terrorism.. wait, "just fight against the devils usa and israel" doesn't end. It will end the day ppl like you stop making excuses, and stop embracing a medieval, lunatic idiology.  Smile
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:29 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 85):
Even Aishwarya Rai or Salma Hayek, neither of whom is fat nor white (but certifiably gorgeous), would be asked to veil up or be denied boarding on a Saudi flight. Its not pressure from the immediate social group on board that flight; its the law, awful though it may be, and the obnoxious and ugly Muttawa (or the Mutts as I call them) who roam around Saudi airports unfettered would insist on it being applied.

So it is ok for one society to impose their wishes on someone, but not another.
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qr332
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:31 am

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 91):
lol I've said a lot more intelligent things than this and my posts have been removed quickly. You islamists even hate each other and have fought against each other at times, the blame israel and usa rethoric is not winning you much sympathy anymore, except from all the hippies and pot-smoking peace activists

1) I'm not an Islamist, hell, i'm not even religious
2) Looks like the hippies aren't the only ones who've been smoking pot...
3) How about giving a real argument instead of rambling about things you don't understand?

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 91):
QR, btw it's because of ppl like you that terrorism.. wait, "just fight against the devils usa and israel" doesn't end. It will end the day ppl like you stop making excuses, and stop embracing a medieval, lunatic idiology.

Embracing it? Where have I embraced it? I am simply trying to understand it, I have nothing against the US, hell, I was there in July!
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Fl

Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 89):
I have heard countless stories of Arabs being harassed but have never heard an American or a British person complain about harrassment in the Middle East because they were non-Muslim

In that case you must not be listening. Discrimination in the Middle East is so institutionalised that many people do not even recognise it as such. Even the so-called "enlightened" states of the Middle East such as the UAE and Qatar impose different sets of rights on different religious groups. And go ask any of the migrant labourers in the region whether they have ever been victims of harassment - you might come away with a very different opinion.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 89):
this is almost non-existent in the Gulf, but is widespread in the rest of the Arab world

It may be non-existent in certain circles, but again I assure you that the underlying principles are still very prevalent even in the most enlightened circles of the most enlightened states. I visited Qatar in April as part of a Government delegation representing a foreign state. Our delegation included two women. During our official discussions with our Qatari counterparts, the women were not only not permitted to address the Qatari men directly - but they were also segregated from the men at the evening banquets. So maybe they were not forced to wear a veil such as they would have been in Saudi Arabia, but they were definitely subjected to discrimination due to their gender.
 
Horus
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RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:38 am

Unfortunately the thread has gone off topic from the original subject despite the moderatoring team's efforts to keep the discussion on topic. The thread has now been locked.

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