Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
jasond
Topic Author
Posts: 648
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:23 am

A380 - The Passengers Vote

Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:52 pm

Much has been said of the A380 but I can't help but feel that the final vote of confidence will be dealt by none other than the passenger. Some Airlines like QF have opted for a reduction in the nominal seating capacity (555) to presumably support the idea that the thing does in fact offer more space for the individual. However I do believe that the economic realities of modern operations (fuel prices for one) will force all A380 operators down the high as possible capacity route. Add further development to the equation which may spawn A380 stretches and you have capacities of 800 pax or more. Given that for most of us (economy pax) international long-haul travel isn't that pleasant at the best of times I can't help but wonder if, in time, travelling on an A380 will not be that pleasant.
 
Joni
Posts: 2613
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 11:05 pm

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:27 pm

Ultimately the passengers will decide how full of seats the A380s will be. Since the plane offers a lot of space and low operating costs, it gives airlines a lot of options to plan their offering.
 
xaphan
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 11:09 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:34 pm

Has anyone been to a piano lounge onboard a 747 lately?
 
billreid
Posts: 761
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:04 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:38 pm

Because of operational issues the A380 may end up being be the most hated aircraft in economy class.
First will bew wonderful, Business will be OK.

How long will it take to enplane and de-plane in the cheap seats.
And how long will it take to clear baggage claim and customs.

It may reduce CASM, but one must ask if that saving will be passed on to the consumer.

I think this will be the worlds best integrator aircraft and fail as a pax aircraft.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:46 pm

How many passengers really give a damn what the aircraft is? It gets them from A to B (sometimes via C) for a certain cost.
 
leelaw
Posts: 4517
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

AWST: Low-Cost Carriers Forge New Boundaries

Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:52 pm

Quoting Dazeflight (Reply 5):
Quoting Xaphan (Reply 2):
Has anyone been to a piano lounge onboard a 747 lately?

nobody ever talked about a piano lounge. So cut the crap already, it gets old.



One wonders whether anything as spacious will show-up on the A380?
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
goingboeing
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 1:58 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:57 pm

Quoting Dazeflight (Reply 5):

nobody ever talked about a piano lounge. So cut the crap already, it gets old.

What crap is there to cut? The 380 was marketed as having everything...cocktail lounges, weight rooms, all kinds of amenities...just like the 747 had this great piano lounge on board when it first came out. The bottom line is, the 380 will become just a 555 passenger jet, and not the spa in the sky that many drempt it would be.
 
georgiaame
Posts: 1025
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:55 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:02 pm

We can all speculate. The luggage issue was identical with the introduction of the 747 back in 1970, and in those days, no one carried more than a hat onboard as hand luggage. With a seating capacity of 550 as opposed to 450 for the current 747s, we are looking at only 50 more passengers per carousel, assuming 2 are utilized per flight arrival. Not great, but not an earth shattering catastrophe. I would be a hell of a lot more worried about the 550+ mob making its way through our proven non-security system prior to launch.

Lugging luggage up the stairs is always fun, but never proved impossible with the spiral 747 staircase, and the Airbus is certainly larger. These are really going to prove to be non issues on the 550 aircraft. 800-1000, well, that's a whole different ball park.

If AF were to utilize a 380 for its single daily flight out of Atlanta instead of the current 777, which essentially doubles its daily available seats, I for one would be thrilled to give it a whirl. I am not going out of my way, literally, to catch a flight out of say LAX or JFK just to ride one.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
redflyer
Posts: 3905
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:12 pm

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 8):
We can all speculate.

My speculation is the airplane will succeed or fail on airline economics only. As pointed out above, passengers won't know the difference. As for the "mob" that will result at customs or baggage claim, has anyone been in a major airport terminal when two 744's off-loaded their passengers at the same time? It happens on a daily basis and I've had the misfortune of getting stuck in the middle.

This bird is going to succeed or fail only on how efficiently and cost-effectively the airlines will be able to operate it as compared to other aircraft types. And nothing else.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
jasond
Topic Author
Posts: 648
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:23 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:46 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 4):
How many passengers really give a damn what the aircraft is? It gets them from A to B (sometimes via C) for a certain cost.

I think passengers will give a damn. Consider the airline that has a highly efficient point-to-point aircraft for not that much more. One experience with the A380 'cattle carrier' and the hands reach into the pocket for the tiny bit extra without the messy hub transfers. The fact that it may have to go through C (the aforementioned hub-to-hub model) is another reason that will make it thoroughly unpleasant, I suspect.
 
Ken777
Posts: 10149
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:56 pm

After the past few weeks the first pax vote will be on check-in and the potential mad house at airports like LHR. There is now a need for the airports to get really organized on the security side before they are 380 "ready".
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting Jasond (Thread starter):
Much has been said of the A380 but I can't help but feel that the final vote of confidence will be dealt by none other than the passenger.

I hope you are correct. Between you and Richard perhaps lies the small matter of 12 hour flights. If you don't have to suffer for more than about 6 hours comfort is a relatively minor matter, but as you know Jasond, from Sydney, 6 hours does not even get you to Jakarta. It also will depend on how the airlines chose to use the space, and so far we don't really know much on that. But the difference between an A380 and a 747 flight in cattle class has the potential to cause passengers to take a considerable interest in what the plane is.

I admit this will be a major change, with most folk arriving from Europe not knowing which plane or even how many engines it had. But having 20% or 30% more space should have an impact. Eventually, there may be sufficient demand to pack them out like a 747, but there looks to be at least an inter-regnum when space might just win - down here some of us are definitely with you in hoping so.
 
jasond
Topic Author
Posts: 648
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:23 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 12):
It also will depend on how the airlines chose to use the space, and so far we don't really know much on that.

Both QF and SQ have decided to opt for reduced capacities to start with. The big selling point with this aircraft is space. Airbus sells the aircraft to airlines saying that it's initial configuration can accomodate 555 pax. The airline THEN sells to the public the image that there is more space then ever before. The juggling act then for airlines is to balance the risk of creating a negative image with customers against facing the harsh economic realities of running a airline. I'm not a Boeing OR Airbus fan either way (for what its worth) but personally I think flying point-to-point on a 787 would be more enjoyable.

Quoting Jasond (Reply 14):
The A380 has the possibility to offer more space to the individual

It does, but you know and I know that the extra space on offer will be used to carry more individuals.

[Edited 2006-08-21 17:21:51]
 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting Jasond (Reply 10):

I think passengers will give a damn. Consider the airline that has a highly efficient point-to-point aircraft for not that much more. One experience with the A380 'cattle carrier' and the hands reach into the pocket for the tiny bit extra without the messy hub transfers. The fact that it may have to go through C (the aforementioned hub-to-hub model) is another reason that will make it thoroughly unpleasant, I suspect.

Until there is a regular planeful of passengers for each route from A to destinations reached through hub C, theres little chance of a point-point alternative becoming available. A larger aircraft running hubs can deal with the 50 people going to E, 30 people going to F, 80 people going to G. No amount of 'tiny bit extra' can give you an alternative where none exist.

This is why its useless to discuss point to point over ultra long routes destroying hub runners over the same routes. It may be viable over the shorter routes, but thats always been the case through history with all modes of transport.

I again posit that the vast bulk of passengers carry will not give a damn one way or the other as to what aircraft they are flying on, and if anything they are more likely to pay for upgrades to better classes on the same flight than different flights.
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2639
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:50 am

Quoting Jasond (Reply 14):
think flying point-to-point on a 787 would be more enjoyable.

Okay tell me this? What on earth is the point in having say 4 787s leave SYD for LHR within say 2 hrs of each other so they can reach LHR by the time the curfiew allows, and their slots allow, only to tie up additional gates and require additional groundstaff, tie up more slots and make lets say, the same profit? Ditto for JNB, Hong Kong, NRT etc. This point to point thing is great if you wanna go from say, Amsterdam to Atlanta, but what if you do wanna go from 1 major place to another? And the slot restrictions and time differences basically dictate timetables? Look at those routes and notice that they're all being flown largely by 744s and 773s? Gee... they highest capacity on the market? Wonder how they ever manage to fill the damn things? They must fly them empty. AND since when does a large aircraft = uncomfortable? Last time i checked most pax had a preference for widebodies. and the bigger the bettter.
 
Outlier
Posts: 327
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:17 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 1):
Ultimately the passengers will decide how full of seats the A380s will be.

Right now passengers are more than willing to sit in standard coach seats crammed very close together while paying as little as possible.
The passengers are tolerant of close quarters, sparse service, no frills, anything to keep the ticket price down.

I don't see why the A380 situation would be any different.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27457
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:03 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 9):
This bird is going to succeed or fail only on how efficiently and cost-effectively the airlines will be able to operate it as compared to other aircraft types. And nothing else.

Pretty much. Also one can expect the "space" will be limited to First and Business Class, only. The airlines have no real incentive to put in less then the maximum per-row seating they can in Economy, since it's just lost revenue from the get-go.

If airlines could offer (hypothetical since I don't recall the actual numbers) 9 across at 20" width at first instead of 10 across at 18" width, I am sure the passengers will like it. But as soon as that airline adds in the extra seat and shrinks them those two inches, I don't expect people to automatically bail to an available 8-across 787 at 19".
 
leelaw
Posts: 4517
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

FI: UK Supermarket Chain Unveils 747 In Ful Livery

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting Dazeflight (Reply 13):
Quoting Leelaw (Reply 6):
One wonders whether anything as spacious will show-up on the A380?

Last time I checked, we've been talking about the A380 here. Even though Xaphan tossed the B747 into here, he was clearly directing his argument at the A380.

We are talking about the A380. The point Xaphan was originally trying to make, is that relatively large common area ammenities which absorb significant floor area have have been tried in the past, and have proven to be a less profitable use of the floor space than installing passenger seats.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
brilondon
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:29 am

The realities of air travel are such that only the legacy carriers seem to lining up to buy the A380. I wonder if the realization of how little profit can be made by getting economy pax in to a cattle hauler that some people fear that this plane may become. I think that there is real profit in the higher end travel and you may see a larger B/F section in these planes and yet a significant number of Y class still in the back end of the lower deck.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27457
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:41 am

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 20):
I think that there is real profit in the higher end travel and you may see a larger B/F section in these planes and yet a significant number of Y class still in the back end of the lower deck.

And that is an advantage to the A380. You could seat large numbers of Business Class passengers (where the money is really made on long-haul travel), plus small First and Premium Economy class cabins on the upper deck, then fill the lower deck with 300+ Economy seats. You make money on three levels:

  • Quality - First and Premium Economy fares.
  • Quantity - Economy fares.
  • Quality and Quantity - Business Class fares.
 
khobar
Posts: 1336
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:12 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:48 am

Quoting Dazeflight (Reply 13):
The crap to cut is the crap to state that the A380 has actually and seriously been advertised as having piano lounges, swimming pools or the stuff that people like you always refer to, aboard. Since the day the project was launched, it is common knowledge that the plane, while being more comfortable than other current airliners and offering additional amentities, won't offer a tennis court, a swimming pool or a piano bar. Nobody ever seriously considered this. And don't post those funky interior artist impressions from years ago - I was saying "seriously considering", those pics just show what is possible. There is a big difference in that.

Seems the airlines know what they consider "serious". From various sources:

"Passengers on Virgin's A380s, he declared, would be able to go to the gym or use the aeroplane's beauty parlour. There would be large bars, a casino and even a few double-beds, he said, quipping about there being "two ways of getting lucky" on a Virgin A380 flight."

"The twin-deck widebody of the roomy A380 has meant that some airlines have requested on board showers, an office, a childrens' play area, a gym, a bar, shops, a smoking area, and a mini casino."

"Airbus has billed its A380 as a flying hotel and cruise ship, featuring such items as duty-free shops and in-flight dining areas. "

(BTW, most hotels and cruise ships do actually have swimming pools)

 Wink
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:52 am

Quoting Jasond (Reply 14):
Both QF and SQ have decided to opt for reduced capacities to start with. The big selling point with this aircraft is space. Airbus sells the aircraft to airlines saying that it's initial configuration can accomodate 555 pax. The

I think that the reason for the decision to take less than a full bag has more to do with weight and payload.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
agill
Posts: 1101
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:49 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:56 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 22):


"Airbus has billed its A380 as a flying hotel and cruise ship, featuring such items as duty-free shops and in-flight dining areas. "

Maybe duty-free stuff are a thing now when you can't bring your own stuff on the plane. To sell it in flight could be a way around that problem (well except for the fact that you'd end up with hundreds of bottles of alcohol in the cabin)
 
antiuser
Posts: 646
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 9:43 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 3):
How long will it take to enplane and de-plane in the cheap seats.
And how long will it take to clear baggage claim and customs.

How long does it take to board and deplane a 747 in high density configuration?
There's your answer.
Azzurri Campioni del Mondo!
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27457
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:44 am

Quoting Dazeflight (Reply 25):
Sources and dates please? Without those, I can only classify those quotes as the media crap I was talking about earlier.

The media is a source.  Wink

And even Airbus' own website showed many of these amenities, as did their cabin mockups they built for the press and airline executives. Unless you don't consider the manufactuer to be a "valid" source.  Silly

So even if economic realities meant that most of these amenities never materialized, it does not negate the fact that they were, indeed offered and promoted as a selling point both to the airlines and the passengers that would patronize those airlines.  Smile
 
khobar
Posts: 1336
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:12 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:02 am

Quoting Dazeflight (Reply 25):
Sources and dates please? Without those, I can only classify those quotes as the media crap I was talking about earlier.

"Passengers on Virgin's A380s, he declared, would be able to go to the gym or use the aeroplane's beauty parlour. There would be large bars, a casino and even a few double-beds, he said, quipping about there being "two ways of getting lucky" on a Virgin A380 flight."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4184987.stm
---
"The twin-deck widebody of the roomy A380 has meant that some airlines have requested on board showers, an office, a childrens' play area, a gym, a bar, shops, a smoking area, and a mini casino."

(article mentions test flight to LHR in May 2006 in past tense)

http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/a380/
---
"Airbus has billed its A380 as a flying hotel and cruise ship, featuring such items as duty-free shops and in-flight dining areas. "

January, 2005
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/209051_interior24.html
---
"Virgin Atlantic’s A380s are going to be bigger and better than any aircraft which has preceded them with bigger and better cabins for all our passengers - for us, size matters," he said. "The capability exists for some airlines to put up to 800 passengers on board their A380s, but at Virgin we believe that we stay ahead of the competition by looking after the passenger, which is why we will only seat 500 people.

"For both business class and economy travellers, we will be introducing a range of new features, because as a small airline, we need to innovate. These will include a gym area, larger bars and a beauty parlour.

"We also plan to include a casino and double beds, which means there will now be two ways of getting lucky on board our aircraft," he joked with reporters. He added: "These innovations will ensure a better travel experience for everyone."

"It’s the most exciting aircraft to be built for 50 years. The A380 is a beautiful looking aircraft, it’s incredibly quiet and tremendously fuel efficient, which is surprising given it’s the biggest civil aircraft ever built. I believe it is the future of flying." Richard Branson, A380 unveiling ceremony, January 2005.
---

"As first in the world to operate the A380 at the end of 2006, Singapore Airlines will pioneer a new era in global commercial aviation. Customers on the Singapore Airlines A380, particularly those in the premium classes, will enjoy the greater luxury and comfort that the increased space on this aircraft affords. There will be less than 480 seats in a three-class configuration on the Singapore Airlines A380, although the aircraft was designed to accommodate 555 passengers in the same layout. The cabin products on the Singapore Airlines A380 will also be noticeably different from what is on offer today. The Airline has ten A380s on firm order, and fifteen on option.

Singapore Airlines, October 2005
---

And one for the easily offended:

AIRBUS A380: A WHALE OF PLANE!
Despite looking a bit like a Whale with wings, this is a species of the air that will be flourishing by 2006.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/southerncounties/community/airbus/a380.shtml

[Edited 2006-08-21 20:22:16]
 
anstar
Posts: 3324
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting Antiuser (Reply 26):
How long does it take to board and deplane a 747 in high density configuration?
There's your answer.

QF have said their A380 will have 501 seats.
Their current 747-300 fleet have 450 seats so it is only an increase of 51 seats so I wouldnt think handling / deplaning times would be too different.
 
ordryan28
Posts: 963
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:24 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:07 am

although I don't really have much to say, all I can say is that I hope the passenger does appreciate the A380. at first, I hated the 380. I was an all boeing person, but I've come to really enjoy the 380 and what they will have on board. the machine is the most incredible, enormous plane to grace the blue skies.

-Ryan
Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
 
Kangar
Posts: 362
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting Jasond (Reply 10):
I think passengers will give a damn. Consider the airline that has a highly efficient point-to-point aircraft for not that much more. One experience with the A380 'cattle carrier' and the hands reach into the pocket for the tiny bit extra without the messy hub transfers. The fact that it may have to go through C (the aforementioned hub-to-hub model) is another reason that will make it thoroughly unpleasant, I suspect.

The passenger sees a cattle carrier either way, it makes no difference being on the main deck of a 777 or the upper or lower deck of an A380, people are still like cattle in both. For the very long range routes for which the A380 is principally intended, I suspect most folks have very little problem with breaking up the flying with one extra stop, especially when it's easier on their pocket. For the vast majority of consumers who aren't quite so into aircraft as us, price is king.
 
JAT74L
Posts: 606
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 5:37 pm

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:10 am

These kind of things are not that far fetched you know...



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © John Thompson
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © John Thompson




Given an airline with some imagination - and the desire to provide something different instead of just more seats.

Regards

John
I like trains just as much as planes but trains don't like the Atlantic!
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14126
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:41 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 22):
Seems the airlines know what they consider "serious". From various sources

Airbus & Boeing just don´t determine how a cabin looks.

Boeing is not "advertising" the 787 will have no center bins either


it is to tease the big public..

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 6):
One wonders whether anything as spacious will show-up on the A380?

who knows..
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...irst+Class+suites+concept+for.html
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
hb88
Posts: 761
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:25 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:45 am

Personally, I think the 380 will eventually be a huge success for the same manifold reasons that the 747 was a success. I also think the gloom and doom brigade will be proven totally wrong, in much the same way that the same bunch were shown to be completely wrong in respect of the 747 when it was mooted (baggage queues, airport modifications, too big, too crowded blah blah).

I'd like to see 380 carriers operate it with economy class which provides slightly more comfort, but I fear they will be in the minority. In which case, I think the pax, to be honest wont give a toss. It's just another big aircraft for a long flight.

For those who think the 380 will somehow be a fundamentally worse experience for having so many people in one aircraft, I think this is nonsense - the visual and physical cues don't really remind you that you're in a twin-deck aircraft and IMO apart from being slightly more spacious, I think the feel will be much the same as a 747.

Baggage queues IMO will be a non-issue as the increase in baggage throughput isn't all that large over a high density 747 (or two 747s arriving at the same time). IMO, arriving and clearing customs/immigration/baggae in a 380 at somewhere like LHR will be no different to arriving in a 747.

OTOH, if the carriers do go with increasing pax room, I can see people flocking to it. For long-haul (>8hrs), you'd be insane not to consider flying with a more comfortable carrier. I do think there comes a price point where people will distinguish over sardine-stylee carriers. It certainly informs my spending decisions and we fly europe-australia and europe-asia a few times/year.
 
khobar
Posts: 1336
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:12 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting Agill (Reply 24):
Maybe duty-free stuff are a thing now when you can't bring your own stuff on the plane. To sell it in flight could be a way around that problem (well except for the fact that you'd end up with hundreds of bottles of alcohol in the cabin)

The airlines would simply not carry that amount of bottles/drinks. First come, first serve.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 33):
Airbus & Boeing just don´t determine how a cabin looks.

I don't think anyone has said otherwise.
 
birdbrainz
Posts: 511
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 6:57 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:11 am

There is one are in which the A380 could make things more difficult: Cancellations. Having a 767 flight cancelled for MX means 250 people stranded vs 500 for the A380.

Also, the A380 is a bigger target for terrorists, and cancelling a flight for security reasons makes a much bigger mess. It's also harder to find and unload someone's bag who doesn't make the flight on a big aircraft.

My bet: I think the A380 will be successful, at least for certain routes. Too many big reputable airlines have signed up. Could they all be wrong? Of course, too many airlines bought 747's in the 70's. (CO, AA, SAS, for example.)

One other comment about 500 vs 450 people per plane: Sometimes it takes only a small incrimental increase in people to really stuff things up. Rush hour traffic is an excellent example. Is it applicable here? Maybe. Maybe not. We'll see.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
AY104
Posts: 501
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:35 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:21 am

Once the novelty wears off, it will be just like any other a/c. You pay the bucks, or you get an upgrade, and you're set! I don't really think that seat pitch will change, you may notice an extra inch or so of leg room, but that will likely be due to the technology built-in to the seat.
The 747 was great: at the start some airlines only had 8 or abreast. If I remember correctly (if I'm wrong please correct me, I am really quite interested in the old configurations), AC had 2-4-2 seating. I rememer on a flight YVR-YYC-LHR, I was on an inside seat, one from the aisle, it was not at all uncomfortable. Just like the dc10's and L1011's 2-4-2 seating. HNL-YVR, I gave up a window seat so a couple could sit together on a full flight. I knew the guy had a middle seat, but it was so spacious that it was not a problem. (Compare that to a loaded A330 from LHR-YYC, on which I had a middle seat - well, no comparison - not a complaint, just an observation). As a matter of fact, I don't think we will ever see that, even on the 380 in Y-Class.
Personally, I prefer the 767, be it 763 or 762, never been on a 764. I like to sit near the back, after row 32, usually not as crowded if the flight is not full, in the centre part where there are 3 seats,on an aisle. Usually at least the middle seat is free. I guess that could happen on a 380, but the sheer volume even when not full turns me off.
I certainly do prefer the 767 over the narrow body, though, at least on a long flight. I guess the 787 will be my airliner of choice.
Cheers,
Carl (AY104)

[Edited 2006-08-21 22:25:44]
The only thing a customer should expect for his/her loyalty is good service
 
Ken777
Posts: 10149
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:41 am

I believe that initially the airlines will provide more room in cattle car, simply because it will offer a competitive advantage - sort of like AA had when they were running the MRTC program. Over time economics are going to impact that extra room, just like it did with MRTC. The tipping point will be when the 380s are full most of the time on their primary routes. At that point the airlines are going to want that extra revenue, which will come from the pax's extra room.
 
ShowerOfSparks
Posts: 136
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 9:22 pm

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:16 am

Deleted

Deleted

Deleted

[Edited 2006-08-21 23:17:19]
 
thebry
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:50 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:22 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 28):
Quoting Dazeflight (Reply 25):
Sources and dates please? Without those, I can only classify those quotes as the media crap I was talking about earlier.
"Passengers on Virgin's A380s, he declared, would be able to go to the gym or use the aeroplane's beauty parlour. There would be large bars, a casino and even a few double-beds, he said, quipping about there being "two ways of getting lucky" on a Virgin A380 flight."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4184987.stm
---
"The twin-deck widebody of the roomy A380 has meant that some airlines have requested on board showers, an office, a childrens' play area, a gym, a bar, shops, a smoking area, and a mini casino."

(article mentions test flight to LHR in May 2006 in past tense)

http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/a380/
---
"Airbus has billed its A380 as a flying hotel and cruise ship, featuring such items as duty-free shops and in-flight dining areas. "

January, 2005
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/209051_interior24.html
---
"Virgin Atlantic’s A380s are going to be bigger and better than any aircraft which has preceded them with bigger and better cabins for all our passengers - for us, size matters," he said. "The capability exists for some airlines to put up to 800 passengers on board their A380s, but at Virgin we believe that we stay ahead of the competition by looking after the passenger, which is why we will only seat 500 people.

"For both business class and economy travellers, we will be introducing a range of new features, because as a small airline, we need to innovate. These will include a gym area, larger bars and a beauty parlour.

"We also plan to include a casino and double beds, which means there will now be two ways of getting lucky on board our aircraft," he joked with reporters. He added: "These innovations will ensure a better travel experience for everyone."

"It’s the most exciting aircraft to be built for 50 years. The A380 is a beautiful looking aircraft, it’s incredibly quiet and tremendously fuel efficient, which is surprising given it’s the biggest civil aircraft ever built. I believe it is the future of flying." Richard Branson, A380 unveiling ceremony, January 2005.
---

"As first in the world to operate the A380 at the end of 2006, Singapore Airlines will pioneer a new era in global commercial aviation. Customers on the Singapore Airlines A380, particularly those in the premium classes, will enjoy the greater luxury and comfort that the increased space on this aircraft affords. There will be less than 480 seats in a three-class configuration on the Singapore Airlines A380, although the aircraft was designed to accommodate 555 passengers in the same layout. The cabin products on the Singapore Airlines A380 will also be noticeably different from what is on offer today. The Airline has ten A380s on firm order, and fifteen on option.

Singapore Airlines, October 2005
---

And one for the easily offended:

AIRBUS A380: A WHALE OF PLANE!
Despite looking a bit like a Whale with wings, this is a species of the air that will be flourishing by 2006.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/southerncountie...community/airbus/a380.shtml[Edited 2006-08-21 20:22:16]

Wow Khobar... amazing gathering of data points. Proves this wasn't just "media crap." The airlines did suggest these amenities would exist.

Given today's state of affairs, it's highly doubtful (if anything from a security perspective) we'll see gymnasiums, shops or beauty salons on the 380. And, the luggage situation just got worse -- a lot of people are electing to check baggage they would usually have rolled-abord rather than throw away all their liquid cosmetics and personal hygene aids (deodorant, hair gel, lotion, etc.). There will be a LOT of unused space in overhead bins, that's for sure. The crowd at baggage claim is going to be impossible to navigate. Airports will have to add this to the list of considerations for accommodating the WhaleJet.

But... Rome wasn't built in a day. I predict the plane will ultimately be a great success in the limited VLA segment. It'll just take some time for airlines, airports (and Airbus) to get the kinks worked out.
 
YULWinterSkies
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:42 pm

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:07 am

Quoting Jasond (Reply 14):
flying point-to-point on a 787

Please all stop that point-to-point bulls**t. The 787 will fly point-to-point as soon as the 380 gets a tennis court.
The 787 will fly hub-to-point, and hub-to-hub on a frequent basis. The 380 will mostly fly hub-to-hub (LHR-SYD...) or in niche markets (CDG-YUL...). Period.


I would be happy enough if we can fly the 380 in Y on 32" / 18" seats as the standards are today (let alone the jerks who have downsized to 31" already), with a good old 2-4-2 upstairs and not more than 3-4-3 downstairs. But time will tell...
When I doubt... go running!
 
coa747
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:11 pm

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:10 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 16):
Okay tell me this? What on earth is the point in having say 4 787s leave SYD for LHR within say 2 hrs of each other so they can reach LHR by the time the curfiew allows, and their slots allow, only to tie up additional gates and require additional groundstaff, tie up more slots and make lets say, the same profit? Ditto for JNB, Hong Kong, NRT etc. This point to point thing is great if you wanna go from say, Amsterdam to Atlanta, but what if you do wanna go from 1 major place to another?

The example you used is not point to point. AMS-ATL are both very large hubs. Point to point would be like Houston-Glasgow which would skip the connecting stop in London or Amsterdam. These are just the type of routes the 787 will be used on by airlines like Continental. Saying that why would you have four 787's fly SYD-LHR instead of an A380 shows you don't fully understand the concept of point to point as both SYD and LHR are large hub airports which is what the A380 is designed for.

The point that was being made is that business passengers will probably choose the nonstop option regardless of the amentities or price on the A380 if it means getting there faster with less hassle. Hence elaborate offerings may not be enough to counter the appeal of not having to make the stop the 787 will offer. Hence the success of the 757 on trans-Atlantic ops. We are already seeing that with the growth of long distance flight like ORD-India and EWR-India. Normally passengers would have to make a stop in Europe somewhere on the way but many regular joes are choosing to pay more and skip the stop to get there faster. USA Today had an article about this very trend a few weeks ago. This is counter to the mission of the A380 which is to move lots of people between hubs.
 
mnik101
Posts: 161
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 3:43 pm

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:41 am

Quoting Goingboeing (Reply 7):
Quoting Dazeflight (Reply 5):

nobody ever talked about a piano lounge. So cut the crap already, it gets old.

What crap is there to cut? The 380 was marketed as having everything...cocktail lounges, weight rooms, all kinds of amenities...just like the 747 had this great piano lounge on board when it first came out. The bottom line is, the 380 will become just a 555 passenger jet, and not the spa in the sky that many drempt it would be.

Except for some Arab Sheik who will eventually buy one.
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 2380
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:45 am

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 8):
Lugging luggage up the stairs is always fun, but never proved impossible with the spiral 747 staircase

This, I think, is a total non-issue. Almost all RJ flyers today walk down the stairs to the tarmac to get on the plane (and up a set of stairs to get on the plane anyway).

Several airlines board flights from forward and rear doors at the same time (most notably Jet Blue, and I think Ryanair does too, maybe Southhwest as well) and the rear door is almost always via stairs - so that's down to the tarmac, and up into the airplane again.

Not to mention all the stairs/escalators you go up/down in the terminal itself.

One more set of stairs inside the airplane isn't going to make a bit of difference.

- litz
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2639
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:24 am

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 46):
AMS-ATL are both very large hubs

Okay lets make that AMS-BOS. Same storey....now removing the US example and getting back to the others. SYD-LHR, or JNB-LHR etc may be hub to hub, but they are very large o & d markets in their own right. Within an hr or two of each other every night a shitload of 744s and get filled up from these types of places and head for LHR. Jasond's referenece was to Qantas buying the thing... and I tried to point out why the 787 can't just be substituted in there. Even houston to glasgow is still a "hub" to point flight. You're not going to get rid of the hub's.. and you can't just increase frequency in all cases and get the same result an A380 would.
 
Vega9000
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:48 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:32 am

Getting back on the "Passenger vote" - Did any airliner ever been a failure because the passengers didn't like it?
Don't believe anything you read on the net. Except this. Well, including this, I suppose.
 
brilondon
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting Vega9000 (Reply 50):
Getting back on the "Passenger vote" - Did any airliner ever been a failure because the passengers didn't like it?

A more intriguing question to ask is do the airlines and manufactures really listen to what the public thinks or even cares what the flying public thinks
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
ebj1248650
Posts: 1517
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:17 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:21 am

Quoting Jasond (Reply 14):
personally I think flying point-to-point on a 787 would be more enjoyable.

Explain, please.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
kaitak744
Posts: 2228
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:32 pm

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:32 am

Practically ALL news media sources mislead the public when they said the following:

"as a counter to the A380, Boeing releases the 787."

This is ABSOLUTELY not true.

The 787 is ment to replace the 767 and A300. It just happens to have the additional range because it gives the airlines flexibility. (the don't have to develop an "ER" version). The 787 in no way competes with the A380. It is ment to do different things. So, this discussion here for the past 20 or so posts is basiccaly invalid.
 
xaphan
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 11:09 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:52 am

Just as a clarification on my point about piano lounges on 747s... soon after the glut of 747s after introduction, the economy hit a downtourn and 3 airlines (AA, TW, and UA) were flying coast to coast and four (AA, CO, TW, and UA) flew them LAX to ORD. They weren't flying full. American came up with a clever marketing ploy. They decided to enhance their coach lounge area with a piano. On the inaugral flight they featured Frank Sinatra Jr entertaining. I don't think any name acts were booked for future flights. I can just imagine the joy of a long flight and someboy's kid working their way through "Chopsticks" or some half-drunk characters belting out fraternity songs for five hours. Fortunately the economy soon picked up, and the pianos came off the planes and more seats came on. The upper deck first class lounges soon disappeared also.

I am sure Richard Branson will use some of the space on the A 380 for a variety of innovative service areas, for that is his marketing focus. What my concern centers on is the possibility that in a time of rising fuel costs and massive travel demand and shrinking alternative forms of long distance travel, extra space and lounge areas in any aircraft will be sacrificed for economic neccessity.
 
jasond
Topic Author
Posts: 648
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:23 am

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:31 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 53):
personally I think flying point-to-point on a 787 would be more enjoyable.



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 53):
Explain, please.

Less people, lower cabin altitude, bigger windows and more possibility (not guaranteed of course) that perhaps the thing might get me where I want to go without a transfer through one or more major hubs (and all the associated hassle). Having done PER-SIN-BKK-LHR on QF A330's / B767's and B747's I would prefer to go more direct on a 787 (or something of its ilk) if it were possible. The original point of this topic was simply to suggest that some passengers (not all) might not fly an airline that uses the A380 if alternatives were available. The A380 is a tremendous example of engineering (it has a 'pig' ugly fuselage but a fantastic wing) but it comes with it the possibility that in some passengers minds it may represent a negative travel experience. As the harsh economic realities bite airlines will have to work hard to sell their product to the paying public, sections of which will notice the differences between all the competing products even if they are not aviation 'savvy'.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: A380 - The Passengers Vote

Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:37 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
* Quality - First and Premium Economy fares.
* Quantity - Economy fares.
* Quality and Quantity - Business Class fares.


Presumably quite a bit of the space will go into First and business, but there must be a law of diminishing returns over putting much more space into these sections, even if you charged (EVEN) higher prices.

It seems more likely that a large proportion of the additional space will turn up in premium econ and straight econ. Prem econ will gain revenue, and giving the straight econ more space could be used to get more bums on the wider and better spaced seats. Look at the proportion of 6' 6"ers around these day who really cannot fit in current econ seats. And er there are those who are, er well a little wider than is accounted for with current seat sizes.

With a bit of thought, for the long flights, airlines have the chance to make a real sales pitch, not as catchy as swimming pools perhaps, but a heck of a lot more useful.

And who knows, if having enough room to breath and keep your kneecaps on catches on with long haul, the practice could spread, just like some of the pax need to do!

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos