WN Needs A New Aircraft Fleet

af773atmsp · Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:07 pm

I' ve been watching Airline the show on TV. Many times WN workers say the aircraft is full so you have to get on another flight. Two aircrafts would be perfect for WN. The B757 200 and 300 series and the A321. These two aircrafts would probably help with all the passengers during a WN flight. Or if they want a bigger aircraft why not get the B767 or A330, but I doubt that will happen.

HAM · Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:13 pm

757s are known for slow (de)boarding processes due to their length. time is money for LCCs. 321s would be something completely different to the 737s, so I´d doubt this would be a solution. maybe 739s would do, or an increase in frequency.

atrude777 · Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:16 pm

Quoting Af773atmsp (Thread starter):

How do you explain other airlines that oversell their flights? Do they need to upgrade and get bigger planes? Certainly not.

WN admit they don't have enough seats for their flights and need more planes, but they will continue to get more 737's to add more seats and frequency. They won't get bigger planes or go to a different manafacture, at least not for the time being. WN is rapidly tryign to get as many 737's into their fleet as they can.

Alex

Scorpio · Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:16 pm

- One aircraft, two aircraft. No s;
- WN's load factor isn't higher, on average, than that of the other airlines in the US, I even believe they're lower (someone correct me here if I'm wrong). It has always been WN's strategy to keep a simple fleet (i.e. 737 only). When there's a need for additional capacity, they simply add another flight on that route;
- The 757 is no longer in production.

af773atmsp · Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:17 pm

Yeah B739s could help. And B757s are bad aircrafts. NW's B757s are kind of loud.

NIKV69 · Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:18 pm

767? LOLOL Hardly

Check their busness model. Same aircraft fleet, quick turnarounds and keep those things flying all the time no food and no assingned seat, this has made them tops in the air. No need for another type of AC.

B742 · Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:20 pm

I think WN would rather go for frequencies over capacity. The 73G is perfect for WN as they do not require an extra FA which an 738 would need. Keeping to the 73G's would enable WN to keep crew costs down, and introuduce more flights.

If WN were to ever get larger aircraft, I would expect either the 738 or 739ER!

Rob! wave

deltadc9 · Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 4):
And B757s are bad aircrafts.

Duck!

Is there not a book explaining why Southwest uses ONLY the 737? That way people with posts such as this could simply be given that reference.

As far as the TV show goes, take it with a grain of salt. With hundreds of planes and thousands of flights daily, you would expect a few problems, and that is what they use on the show. Would you even watch if it was simply normal everyday boardings?

william · Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:22 pm

There was a time when the 757 was in production that SWA was "interested".

af773atmsp · Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:23 pm

Why doesn't WN ask Boeing to build a B737-1000 or B737-900ER. Big grin

I don't think ordering more B737s is the solution.

HAM · Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:23 pm

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 4):
And B757s are bad aircrafts. NW's B757s are kind of loud.

What the heck? Since when are 757s "bad" aircrafts? They´re fine for lots of operators. Just not suited to WN´s needs. "kind of loud"? I don´t think that would keep WN from buying them (second-hand of course) and that´s quite a personal view of yours. AFAIK 757s are very fuel efficient calculated by seat mile.

TVNWZ · Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:24 pm

The plural of aircraft is ... aircraft. And the 737 has served the airline quite well.

ntspelich · Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:26 pm

As my dad used to tell me "spit in one hand, wish in the other. See which fills up first." We're not going to get another a/c type due to oversells. And, if you hadn't noticed, Airline was reality tv, so they tended to highlight the (somewhat) dramatic portions of our operation, i.e. mad pax due to an oversell. Higher frequency and adjusting the LIDS on the flight would be the only realistic and viable options, the former possibly being a challenge because Boeing can't get them off the production line quick enough for us.

Besides, who's to say that a larger a/c would prevent oversells? I've given up my seat on a UA 767 because of an oversell. But then, who can turn down getting the F bump, a voucher, free meal and access to the Red Carpet Room?

[Edited 2006-08-28 15:29:53]

LPLAspotter · Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:29 pm

Quoting B742 (Reply 6):
If WN were to ever get larger aircraft, I would expect either the 738 or 739ER!

That choice would fit their model exactly. Wouldn't be surprised if they go for them.

LPLAspotter

deltadc9 · Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:29 pm

Quoting William (Reply 8):
There was a time when the 757 was in production that SWA was "interested".

It is the same diameter isnt it? Kinda like a "Super" 737

Quoting William (Reply 8):
Why doesn't WN ask Boeing to build a B737-1000 or B737-900ER. I don't think ordering more B737s is the solution.

Southwest has asked Boeing to hurry up with Y1, that is a fact. Also, Y1 may very well end up two aircraft. So maybe this thread is more relevant than I thought.

Scorpio · Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:34 pm

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 9):
Why doesn't WN ask Boeing to build a B737-1000 or B737-900ER.

Just FYI, the 737-900ER already exists:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Royal S King

af773atmsp · Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:38 pm

Don't tell me Boeing already made the 757-300ER or LR.

ntspelich · Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:41 pm

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 9):
Why doesn't WN ask Boeing to build a B737-1000 or B737-900ER. I don't think ordering more B737s is the solution.

I'm pretty sure that Boeing's not going to waste the R&D money on a -1000 with the current 737 airframe. It'll be a 737-esque variant of the 787 in the future.

Also, if we had wanted 738s since they fit into our business plan so wonderfully, we would have gotten them by now, espicially due to our closeness with TZ. But, with the extra FA needed on them, along with some performance issues regarding cargo and such, we don't want them.

HAM · Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:42 pm

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 20):
Don't tell me Boeing already made the 757-300ER or LR.

No, that has never been planned. the 753 was not such a huge success at least when you count the frames which have been produced.

nateDAL · Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:07 pm

You have to remember that the TV show emphasizes conflict.

It would be pretty boring to watch a show where all the flights left on time, there were no drunk passangers, and everyone was happy.

WN likely does not have a disproportionatly high number of denied boarding, it just looks that way on TV.

af773atmsp · Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:13 pm

Some of it maybe real though. Some people still drink alchohol before their flight. There was an episode of Airline in the winter. That was real. Delays because of snow would make people angry. And getting crunched in the baggage claim will make people upset since they want to get home or start their vacation.

dtwclipper · Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:57 pm

Ok, I'll let it go. Smile

[Edited 2006-08-28 16:58:36]

Scorpio · Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:00 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 20):
Some of it maybe real though.

All of it is real. They just tend to pick out the things that go wrong
to put on the air, as it would otherwise become boring to watch.

Boston92 · Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 15):
Why doesn't WN ask Boeing to build a B737-1000 or B737-900ER

Why don't you ask them??!! bigthumbsup

flydreamliner · Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 4):
Yeah B739s could help. And B757s are bad aircrafts. NW's B757s are kind of loud.

The 757 is a fantastic aircraft. It was never meant for high-frequency short routes. It's a mid-ranged aircraft intended for things like transcontinental flights, and the like, for which it is very well suited. It would not work well at WN.

NW's 757-200s are getting old, and all of their 757s are PW2000 powered, which seem slightly louder in the cabin than the RB211 powered 757s.

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 9):
Why doesn't WN ask Boeing to build a B737-1000 or B737-900ER. Big grin I don't think ordering more B737s is the solution.

WN could buy 737-800s or -900s. They don't want them. Then they'd need more flight attendants, it would mess up their numbers. WN flights already leave no more than 80% full on average, and they aren't a hub and spoke airline, so adding capacity through frequency is the most effective means to do it by. Also, by keeping only one type, they make sure maintance is cheap, fast, and efficient in some of the smaller/less prevalent airports they fly into. Also, the 737 has the fastest turnaround of any jet it's size. Its short undercarriage makes it easy and quick for ground crews to work with. WN is the most succesful airline in the US, carrying more passengers than anyone else flying, i wouldn't really question them here.

Boston92 · Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:17 am

I think Southwest is doing just fine. If it aint broke, Dont fix it.

seanp11 · Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 9):
Why doesn't WN ask Boeing to build a B737-1000 or B737-900ER. Big grin I don't think ordering more B737s is the solution.

If WN wanted bigger a/c, they would already be buying the 738. Instead, they are only buying loads and loads of 73Gs. Bigger is not always better.

And I don't know about you, but I've been flying WN alot, and most of the things that happen on the show are incredibly rare. I have yet to be on a flight where they have asked people to take the later flight ::knocks on wood::.

N200WN · Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 9):
I don't think ordering more B737s is the solution.

You're looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Besides, there was recently some kind of change in ticketing requirements that should make oversells even more rare.

rwsea · Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 3):
- WN's load factor isn't higher, on average, than that of the other airlines in the US, I even believe they're lower (someone correct me here if I'm wrong). It has always been WN's strategy to keep a simple fleet (i.e. 737 only).

Correct. WN has the lowest load factor of all major carriers in the US. They don't need bigger planes. What they need is higher frequency on the busiest routes.

JayinKitsap · Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:42 am

Gee, WN has been profitable for how many quarters now. In 2005 it was WN, AS, and some other airline (very small profit) that made money for the year.

WN is growing, profitable, and although not my favorite to fly due to no IFE, I can see no reason for them to change their model outside of some regular evolutions (hopefully some IFE like what F9 has).

I suspect their next big this is to be the launch customer for Y1, but it will be for the new version's 149 seat craft. I would suspect it will be for at least 100 units.

N1120A · Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:56 am

Quoting HAM (Reply 1):
757s are known for slow (de)boarding processes due to their length. time is money for LCCs.

752s can theoretically be turned in under 45 minutes. Theoretically

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 3):
- WN's load factor isn't higher, on average, than that of the other airlines in the US, I even believe they're lower (someone correct me here if I'm wrong).

Yep, you are correct.

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 4):
And B757s are bad aircrafts.

Yep, and the Comet never had presurization problems sarcastic

Quoting HAM (Reply 10):
AFAIK 757s are very fuel efficient calculated by seat mile.

Extremely.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 11):
The plural of aircraft is ... aircraft.

Colloquial British English uses Aircraft and Aircrafts interchangably

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 14):
Quoting William (Reply 8):
There was a time when the 757 was in production that SWA was "interested".

It is the same diameter isnt it? Kinda like a "Super" 737

Only so much as the 737 is a baby 707 or the 727 is the 707 trijet. They are very different airplanes.

Quoting HAM (Reply 18):
the 753 was not such a huge success at least when you count the frames which have been produced.

The 753 came along 5 years too late

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 24):
The 757 is a fantastic aircraft. It was never meant for high-frequency short routes. It's a mid-ranged aircraft intended for things like transcontinental flights, and the like, for which it is very well suited. It would not work well at WN.

Wrong. The 757 was designed, similar to the 767, with the ultimate in flexibility in mind. Boeing built it to take the strain of countless quick turn short hops then turn and do a transcon.

Quoting JayinKitsap (Reply 30):
In 2005 it was WN, AS, and some other airline (very small profit) that made money for the year.

AirTran was profitable AFAIK, I am not sure about Frontier. Most of the regional extortionists were.

deltagator · Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Thread starter):
WN Needs A New Aircraft Fleet

So let me get all of this straight...a 13-15 year old watches the TV show Airline and thinks that he understands the Southwest business model, fleet selection, and fleet management better than their own managers (which by the way have continued to lead WN to good profits) do? sarcastic

Quoting NateDAL (Reply 19):
You have to remember that the TV show emphasizes conflict.

And drunks, white trash (hell all types of trash for that matter), smelly folks, fat folks, and a fair amount of people who shouldn't be let anywhere near an airplane for travel. Wink

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 25):
I think Southwest is doing just fine. If it aint broke, Dont fix it.

A voice of reason!

jpetekyxmd80 · Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:33 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 4):
And B757s are bad aircrafts. NW's B757s are kind of loud.

Dude, do you have the slightest idea what you're talking about? This whole thread is just ridiculous. You're creating quite a reputation for yourself here, so I would be more careful with your threads in the future.

af773atmsp · Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:39 am

Yes I do know what I'm talking about. And its not ridiculous! Why not ask WN and see how full their 737s get a day.

jpetekyxmd80 · Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 34):
Yes I do know what I'm talking about.

No, you don't.

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 34):
And its not ridiculous!

Yes, it is.

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 34):
Why not ask WN and see how full their 737s get a day.

What solution would having larger aircraft possibly bring logistically?

flydreamliner · Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:54 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
Wrong. The 757 was designed, similar to the 767, with the ultimate in flexibility in mind. Boeing built it to take the strain of countless quick turn short hops then turn and do a transcon.

The 767 was never meant for short regional hops when it was designed. Is it a very capable and versatile aircraft, sure. Same goes with 757. It's extremely versatile, but jack of all trades is king of none. The higher landing gear on 757, much like on A320 require additional time for ramp crews to do things like refueling, and any kind of servicing and inspection. Also, 757 - like any long single aisle aircraft take longer to board and deboard. The 757 is capable of doing short routes (i flew ORD-CLE on a UA 757 last year), it cannot do the kind of fast turnarounds needed for the numbers of hops WN does with their 737s daily.

jpetekyxmd80 · Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:02 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 37):
Why do you think its ridiculous?

Because it makes zero logistical sense and totally violates the Southwest model that has made them very successful for a very long time. To say 'southwest planes are full, they need a new fleet' is extremely short-sighted and totally nonsensical. If that is such a concern, they can add frequencies with the 737s they continue to receive, or not overbook as much as they do.

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 37):
If you think its ridiculous, why are you looking at it?

Cheap entertainment. Why does traffic slow for an wreck?

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 37):
And I bet you think its ridiculous just because I think of better topics than you do!

Ok, ill go start a thread how Air Tahiti Nui will start service to MKE.

ntspelich · Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:03 am

Ok, here it goes. A day in the pax life of one of our planes:

ship 711- seats 137
FLT ROUTE PAX %Full SEATS
1039 BWI-LAS 131 95.6
1039 LAS-RNO 94 68.6
647 RNO-PHX 116 82.5
647 PHX-PIT 133 97.1
647 PIT-PHL 43 31.4

Just to be fair, let's look at one that makes shorter hops:

ship 611- seats 137
FLT ROUTE PAX %Full Seats
232 BWI-PVD 66 48.2
2571 PVD-BWI 133 97.1
2571 BWI-BNA 97 70.8
505 BNA-MDW 65 47.4
505 MDW-DTW 88 64.2
2572 DTW-BNA 113 82.5
2572 BNA-HOU 95 69.7
54 HOU-DAL 53 38.7
54 DAL-LIT 42 30.7

Hmmmm, don't see any problems there.

[Edited 2006-08-28 22:16:57]

Jpax · Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 37):
And I bet you think its ridiculous just because I think of better topics than you do!

My toys are better than your toys. sarcastic

jpetekyxmd80 · Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:06 am

My daddy can beat up your daddy!!!

OPNLguy · Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:06 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 32):

So let me get all of this straight...a 13-15 year old watches the TV show Airline and thinks that he understands the Southwest business model, fleet selection, and fleet management better than their own managers (which by the way have continued to lead WN to good profits) do?

Yes, apparently so... Yeah sure

Of course, another view he could consider would be that maybe, just maybe, a company that's been around 2.5 times as long as he's been alive (and profitable for all but the first couple of years of that 35 years) just might know what the heck they're doing after all....

I have a son his age, so I know the logic involved... Wink

MattMSP767 · Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:13 am

All I can think of is WOW. Is this for real??? This thread has kept me entertained all day while at work. Smile

Scorpio · Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 37):
Why do you think its ridiculous? If you think its ridiculous, why are you looking at it? And I bet you think its ridiculous just because I think of better topics than you do!

Dude, I defended you here at first, but now you've seriously gone off the deep end. Remember that there are a lot of people here who know an awful lot more about this than you do. I suggest you sit back and learn from them, iso starting these 'mine's better than yours' schoolyard antics.

jcf5002 · Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:13 am

It was sorta mentioned before, but you need to consider WN's business model. The amazing advantage of having only 733s and 737/Gs is that you cut down significantly on operating, training, and maintenence costs. I was talking to a WN mechaninc on the tarmac one evening (I was doing overnight fuel pre-loads at BWI) and he said that there is some parts commonality between the two a/c. That, in turn, cuts down on maintenece costs, not to mention the fact that they are the same basic aircraft. A bigger jet means larger maintenece facilities, more parts storage space and more personel. Further, they hold the exact same number of people and about the same amount of baggage so weight calculations and booking numbers stay the same. On a similar note, pilots only need to be type-certified for the B737 and only need to know the systems of two aircraft. I would not be surprised either to find that the 733 and 73G fly similarly once the 733s get fitted with winglets.

Its all about cost people, making money. You throw a different type-raiting of jet in there and all of that goes out the window.

Jeff

AY104 · Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:13 am

Again, the old saying "They have always been successful because they keep it simple". They can keep one type of a/c, commonality for parts/engine changes etc etc cuts the costs and delays which are also costly to a minimum. They dont' have to be stuck at an airport, have a mechanical, and find that the only spare parts they have there are for another aircraft type.
As long as they operate the way they do, and stay away from the "clone" airlines' way of doing business, they will continue to be successful. As soon as they start getting different types of aircraft, putting expensive IFE's etc. they will immediately decrease their profits. so, let's leave 'em alone and let them have continued success. I am sure they have their eyes on the market, and as soon as they dedect that they have to add something which is necessary for the competition, ie they start losing passengers, I am sure then they will initiate the change(s).
Cheers,
Carl (AY104)

rwsea · Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:15 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 34):
Yes I do know what I'm talking about. And its not ridiculous! Why not ask WN and see how full their 737s get a day.

Your whole premise is ridiculous. I'll list the reasons why below:

1) First, you're basing your entire argument on a couple of TV shows. Airline was filmed at only a few of WN's airports, and it was filmed at the "busier" airports. Flights out of airlines' hubs are generally fuller. If the same TV show that you watched was filmed in JAN or ELP or GEG, you would be saying that WN needs to start buying CRJ's because their planes are too empty. Additionally, you only saw a few flights. What's to say the rest of the flights that day were empty? And if there's room on later flights, then obviously, they aren't all full!

2) Secondly, you ignore the FACT that WN has the lowest load factor in the industry. Of course that doesn't mean anything when it comes to profit, but it does mean that WN's planes are not too small.

3) Third, you give the 321 as a possible new aircraft for WN, which is totally ridiculous considering that it's about the same size as a 739, and also, would introduce a new fleet type which is exactly what WN has been avoiding all these years.

4) You say that the 752 is too loud, but you make no mention of WN's classic 737s which are louder.

5) Finally, you go off on a childish rant about how you post better threads than others. Uh huh. Thanks for being the saving grace for A.net and finally posting some interesting threads, because there haven't been any before you came along.

777fan · Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 4):
NW's B757s are kind of loud.

Quoting HAM (Reply 10):
What the heck? Since when are 757s "bad" aircrafts? They´re fine for lots of operators.

The 757 is a wonderful aircraft and isn't any louder than anything else of comparable size. Don't know how you arrived at that conclusion...

777fan

PPVRA · Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:22 am

These oversold flights are probably in markets that do not warrant (yet) a second flight. The extra frequeny would probably not be profitable.

So what you do? Put a pair of E190s in that market and make that extra frequency come true Big grin

More seats, more frequencies, happier pax, with a smaller airplane.

Cheers Smile

Kempa · Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:34 am

Every airline has a department that analyzes the demand of each route and the corresponding load factor. If they find out that a route is consistently getting overloaded, they can opt to increase the frequency, or replace the aircraft with a larger one.

WN saves a lot of money by using one type of aircraft. In reality, it is two, but they are very much alike, so they still save a lot of money. All their pilots can pilot any of their aircraft, all their mechanics han maintain any of their aircraft. They can keep parts inventory relatively low.

Their route structure is based on having one type of aircraft: a lot of focus cities with full service and frequent departures.

They can maintain their market edge and profitability if they keep using only one type of aircraft.

Where does this end? You are right, the 732 aren't getting any younger. So they are being replaced by newer generation 737. What comes next? Something new (737-1000 as you said), or some new model that will be a child of the 737 program. As aircraft models evolve, the change here will be gradual, as opposed to any whole new concept like the 787 or the A380.

The only other option for WN to get a new type of aircraft is to do like JetBlue. In fact you operate as two airlines, one national, and one regional, and you interweave their routes. But that is a whole new story.

CentPIT · Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:36 am

Quoting Ntspelich (Reply 40):
647 PHX-PIT 133 97.1

Looks to me like PHX-PIT needs a second daily flight?

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