Accidentally
Posts: 613
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2000 7:33 am

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:36 am

Dang, EYE is just a few blocks from my apartment here, and in fact just off the end of runway 03. I didnt even know this happened until I saw it on here a few minutes ago. What a shame.
Indianapolis, IN
 
TumbledGyro
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:15 pm

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:40 am

To add my two cents, from what I have read regarding insurance premiums on Cirrus aircraft versus other types, the Cirrus has been considerably higher. The article, though, pointed out that insurance companies don't have a lot of data on the aircraft, meaning it's a relatively new aircraft type with a young fleet, it's made of a material that hasn't been used on this scale before, and has a glass cockpit. Let the plane get some history under its belt, and one will see insurance premiums drop. I have an instructor friend who flies an SR22, and he says the aircraft is a dream to fly, but can be a handful for very low-time pilots if they let the plane get ahead of them. Also, a Cirrus lands more like a Mooney, and any extra speed over the numbers can create quite the porpise. The CAPS system is awesome! It's not a guarantee, but definitely nice to have - just in case.
 
APFPilot1985
Topic Author
Posts: 1840
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:51 pm

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:44 am

kind of ironic but i just got an email on this moments ago

http://www.apstraining.com/press-rel...-aug-06-cirrus-specific-ground.htm
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:57 am



Given that the majority of insurance claims are repairs (as opposed to the replacement of the entire airplane), could the higher insurance premiums on the Cirrus be a result of higher repair/replacement costs of components and airframe parts?

After all, when compared with, say, the 182, I would imagine Cirrus-specific parts would be more difficult to come by...as would Cirrus-certified repair stations.

it seems that the newer technology (namely composites) would result in higher repair costs. After all, riveted aluminum airframe repair methods have had many decades to mature. Virtually any repair shop in the country could easily repair a 182 airframe, and I suspect this would tend to lower that airplane's repair costs. I suspect Cirrus airframe repairs aren't quite as routine.

So how much of the Cirrus' higher insurance premiums could be the result of higher repair costs?




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
APFPilot1985
Topic Author
Posts: 1840
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:51 pm

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:00 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 53):
Given that the majority of insurance claims are repairs (as opposed to the replacement of the entire airplane),

Unless CAPS was used

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 53):
it seems that the newer technology (namely composites) would result in higher repair costs.

The tradeoff though is that Composites are supposed to require less repair due to their strength.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 53):
as would Cirrus-certified repair stations.

Cirrus actually has done an excellent job getting their repair stations to be widespread compared to their major competitor Columbia
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
Ward86IND
Posts: 231
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:13 am

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:33 pm

Wow this kinda hits home...

This crash happened literally down the road from my house, about 2 minutes away. And the girl I'm dating does dental assisting here on the west side and I remember her telling me about sitting in on an oral surgery, I'll have to ask her if it was this guy...

R.I.P to the pilot
Live your dream.
 
TinkerBelle
Posts: 1436
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:13 pm

Quoting Sphealey (Reply 44):
On the plus side, as long as it didn't sink, the
> airframe should be much more repairable..

I bet his family could care less... they just lost a loved one. RIP to him.

I think it's kinda disrespectful to start arguing about a plane when a life has been lost as in this case. Maybe you guys should start a new thread about the damn cirrus.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
rampguy
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:35 pm

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:59 pm

The man piloting this aircraft later died at the hospital.
 
avroarrow
Posts: 804
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2001 10:40 am

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:10 pm

I was under the impression, from reading more than a few articles about the SR 20/22 in magazines, that CAPS was installed for certification purposes because they had no other way to get it out of a spin. It was only after this that the marketing people sort of overshadowed this by calling it an innovative safety feature thereby distracting people from the fact that if you ended up in a spin without it, you were toast. Not that I wouldn't happily fly a Cirrus and I do think CAPS is a great idea. A shame about the pilot.
Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
 
rampguy
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:35 pm

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:46 pm

I heard on the news this morning that the pilot may have had a stroke just prior to the crash.
 
Accidentally
Posts: 613
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2000 7:33 am

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:51 pm

Quoting Ward86IND (Reply 55):
Wow this kinda hits home...

This crash happened literally down the road from my house, about 2 minutes away. And the girl I'm dating does dental assisting here on the west side and I remember her telling me about sitting in on an oral surgery, I'll have to ask her if it was this guy...

R.I.P to the pilot

Where are you located? I'm off of 56th next to Union Federal. Where did it go down exactly?
Indianapolis, IN
 
Comanche
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:51 am

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:53 pm

What's with Cirrus, they seem to have more than their share of problems.

Perhaps it is their parachute recovery system that attracts headlines every time one goes down while other more established aircraft brands go unnoticed by the mass media if they encounter a problem. Siill, we never hear the reason why the pilots fire up the chute, is it because they find themselves in a stall spin accident? can't be engine failure (or shouldn't be) the planes are relatively new.
 
n844aa
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:38 am

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:30 pm

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 56):
I think it's kinda disrespectful to start arguing about a plane when a life has been lost as in this case. Maybe you guys should start a new thread about the damn cirrus.

I respect and appreciate what you're saying, and I'm sure all of us on here have lost family members, perhaps in similarly tragic circumstances, and we can empathize with what the family is going through right now. But I think it's just human nature, particularly on an aviation-related message board, to be interested in and to discuss all the ramifications of an accident, not just the human tragedy. Whether the airplane is salvagable is an obvious question -- not because people are glad that the family might not have to write it off, but because of the relatively unique circumstances of this accident. Anyway, just my opinion.

I'm glad CAPS was onboard, and I hope the survivors were doing well.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
travelin man
Posts: 3237
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:05 am

Quoting Comanche (Reply 61):
Siill, we never hear the reason why the pilots fire up the chute, is it because they find themselves in a stall spin accident? can't be engine failure (or shouldn't be) the planes are relatively new.

Well, in this particular instance according to the article, the pilot had a stroke or other debilitating medical problem, and his wife (who didn't know anything about flying an airplane) deployed the parachute. It wasn't a plane issue at all.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 22262
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 40):
Once in a spin the SR20 and SR22 are virtually impossible to recover, according to the test pilots.

I'm kind of surprised the plane got certified, then. I don't know the certification rules, but geez, one spin and the plane crashes doesn't sound like a good way to go for me. Yes, I know it has the BRS/CAPS, but the result is a crash.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting Comanche (Reply 61):
Siill, we never hear the reason why the pilots fire up the chute, is it because they find themselves in a stall spin accident?

I doubt it, as most stall/spin accidents occur in the traffic pattern (1000' AGL and lower), and to top it off, the BRS does have a minimum operating altitude (maybe one of your Cirrus guys knows that by heart?). I don't think anything prevents the BRS'es engagement below the minimum altitude, however parachutes need time (= altitude) to deploy and decelerate the airframe enough for a survivable landing.

As noted above by a previous poster, there is one known stall/spin accident in a Cirrus, and it did not end happily...it never was established by the NTSB if the BRS was deployed by the pilot or the rocket cooked off in the post-accident fire which consumed the aircraft.
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
JBirdAV8r
Posts: 3460
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:44 am

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 64):
I don't know the certification rules, but geez, one spin and the plane crashes doesn't sound like a good way to go for me.

If you think the Cirrus is bad, you should try spinning a Traumahawk (Tomahawk)....ouch.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 65):
the BRS does have a minimum operating altitude (maybe one of your Cirrus guys knows that by heart?).

I seem to remember the lowest demonstrated CAPS deployment altitude was 400 feet. I'll check that.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
APFPilot1985
Topic Author
Posts: 1840
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:51 pm

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:33 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 64):

I'm kind of surprised the plane got certified, then. I don't know the certification rules, but geez, one spin and the plane crashes doesn't sound like a good way to go for me. Yes, I know it has the BRS/CAPS, but the result is a crash.

It was able to still be certified because of the stall resistant wing and the CAPS
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
Ward86IND
Posts: 231
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:13 am

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:02 am

Quoting Comanche (Reply 61):
Where are you located? I'm off of 56th next to Union Federal. Where did it go down exactly?

The plane went down in a neighborhood off 21st & Raceway, and I live in a neighborhood off 21st & Girls School, a little bit to the east.
Live your dream.
 
TumbledGyro
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:15 pm

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:15 am

I believe the minimum recommended altitude for the CAPS is 1500 feet agl. Also, I believe the aircraft was certified as spin resistant. Many tests were done, and the FAA signed off on this, but does state that the Cirrus is not approved for spins.
 
eclipseflight7
Posts: 482
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:00 am

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:59 pm

Quoting TumbledGyro (Reply 69):
I believe the minimum recommended altitude for the CAPS is 1500 feet agl.

Are you sure about that? I was under the assumption that CAPS has been used by aircraft in the pattern before, which would make it useless. Unfortunatly, I don't care enough to get a Cirrus POH.
Holy sh*ts and burritos.
 
cptspeaking
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:49 pm

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:27 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 42):
" harder to keep level with rudders in a stall than a Cessna or Diamond"...

Well, duh, you are not suppose to keep level with your rudder during a stall in a Cirrus. It is designed that way by Cirrus, as the author later notes...

"The outer portion of the wings, which are in front of the ailerons, are still flying and permitting the pilot to control roll with the yoke, even as the inner sections of the wings may be stalled and creating a warning buffet. This illustrates one of the advantages of composite construction;"

In other words... it is safer to keep controling roll through the stall with the same control (the aileron)... instead of having to switch to a different control (the rudder).

I've been on a CFI demo flight with a Cirrus rep in one of their own airplanes and we stalled it just fine. Horn blaring, we were flying right through it coordinated, using rudders and ailerons. No tendency to spin really easy. In fact, I came away from that flight thinking that airplane was the safest one I had ever been in, not only because of the CAPS but the primarily because of the flight characteristics. You've got to do something extremely stupid to lose control of it unless something mechanical happens, in which case you'd pull the chute.

Your CptSpeaking
...and don't call me Shirley!!

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos