Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Ttailsteve
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 4:40 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:01 pm

Quoting VS239 (Reply 41):
I appreciate checking the compass would not show the difference between, for example 24L and 24R, at whichever airport has something like these but it would tell the difference between 220 degrees and 260.

If they made a rolling takeoff, that is advanced the throttles as they turned onto the runway, the compass would be useless to check. A compass is not accurate when accelerating or decelerating. It will indicate a turn and slightly wrong heading. A compass can only be used in stable flight. Of course, there are other instruments that are not affected by acceleration or deceleration that can be used to check the heading of the aircraft. However I just wanted to point out that a compass is not accurate in these conditions. This question is asked in many variations in every private pilot check ride and written test.
 
ewmahle
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:36 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:18 pm

I saw on CNN this morning, and this may have already been known, or even posted and I missed up, but the recordings indicate that the F/O was piloting the aircraft at the time. I do not know anything about the F/O, do we know if he was a frequent flier to LEX as the pilot apeared to be as citied in an article above? If the F/O is flying the aircraft could we assume that maybe the pilot, more familiar with the airport was maybe reading over some checklists during taxi and not watching where the F/O was taxing to?
 
CV990
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:22 pm

Hi 727forever.

Thanks for your detailled information and knowing that you used a lot LEX makes you here in Airliners.Net forum a great value. The CNN expert used the CRJ200 model too, but my question would be, the computer simulation is very much like a REAL FLIGHT??? I remember a few weeks ago on BBC they were testing a car in a special race track, first in the computer and latter in the real place and.......there was nothing close!!! The computer simulation was much easier!
Regarding what you were saying about the confusion with RN22 or RN26 and those taxiways I must agree that even beeing just an enthusiast looks that you can easely get in the wrong runway, and in the end we must look also for the time the flight left, early in the morning, not a lot of light, maybe because the area is a bit flat with lot's of green, must be quite humid, probably there as some mist in the early morning, that can quite confuse pilots right?
Anyway thanks for you insight, very good indeed!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
NIKV69
Posts: 13703
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:31 pm

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 27):
But Amy Clay told the Herald-Leader today that Jeffrey Clay “was not fatigued” on Sunday morning and had been in Lexington since the afternoon before.

We know this. Fatigue had nothing to do with this crash.

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 27):
“My husband was not careless in any manner,” said Clay, a Paintsville native. “He was detail oriented. He was a wonderful man and an incredible pilot. The pilots who worked with him called him a 'by-the-book guy’.”

All this is true but it seems he just made and honest mistake and lined up on the wrong runway.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
gh123
Posts: 645
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:09 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:54 pm

Quoting 727forever (Reply 46):
I can remember one time doing the takeoff brief and taxi checklist while taxiing out and seeing the hold short line for 26 and thinking that I had already crossed it and was holding short of 22. Upon stopping and noticing that something was amiss

Been there. I have often had to think twice about which runway I am on during the taxi to 22.

Quoting 727forever (Reply 46):
Further compounding this is the fact the KLEX tower has a habit of clearing you for takeoff on 22 before you ever reach runway 26. That intersection of taxiway A and 26 is much wider than the surrounding taxiways. The red runway threshold identification signs are for 26 are spread out quite a ways from the taxiway making them difficult to see.

I fly from Lexington a lot (small stuff - Cessna 182/172) and I completely agree with your post. However, the old taxi route as you know it has changed. It was confusing then but is even worse now!

In fact, I'm going to add you to my respected user list - you'l be the first person on it.
 
gh123
Posts: 645
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:09 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:57 pm

Survivor in coma; called 'a fighter'
DOCTORS AT UK ARE CONSIDERING AMPUTATION
By Steve Lannen
HERALD-LEADER STAFF WRITER
The lone survivor of Sunday's Comair crash clung to life last night.

James M. Polehinke, the co-pilot pulled from the burning jet's cockpit and last night confirmed by officials to be at the controls, was in a coma and on life support yesterday. Doctors were considering amputating one of his legs, family friends said.

Officials at the University of Kentucky's Chandler Medical Center said Polehinke remained in critical condition last night.

Friends and neighbors in southern Florida described Polehinke, 44, as a strong man with a faith in God and a fighting spirit to match.

"Jimmy is in bad shape up there. He's in a coma," said longtime friend Antonio Cruz of Miami. "But he's a religious person and a very good man. We are all praying he will come through this."

Lexington police officer Bryan Jared pulled Polehinke from the burning plane minutes after it crashed in a field off Versailles Road. At a news conference yesterday afternoon, Jared said he hoped Polehinke "will be returned back to his family."

Polehinke also suffered a broken rib and pelvis as well as internal bleeding, friends said.

This is not the first time Polehinke has had a near-death experience.

His wife, Ida, shot him in the abdomen with a 9mm semi-automatic handgun in 1999. When police arrived at the home in Margate, Fla., they found Polehinke lying in his blood on the kitchen floor.

Polehinke said the shooting was an accident. His wife told police she shot Polehinke because she was in "fear" for her life after her husband threatened to kill her during an argument, according to a police report. Polehinke recovered from the shooting and declined to speak about it or press charges.

The couple have no children, but four dogs.
 
skaggs
Posts: 149
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:03 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:59 pm

Here is a video of a flight I just made on MFS.

 
redcordes
Posts: 244
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:28 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:02 pm

Just read this quote from a NTSB spokesperson on the CNN website:

The data recorder recovered from the crash site showed that plane reached a top speed of 137 knots, or about 158 mph, she said.

Seems like 137 kts. would be fast enough to stay airborn with the proper configuration and attitude? I'm guessing this speed would be above the stall-speed--depending of course on the configuration.
"The only source of knowledge is experience." A. Einstein "Science w/o religion is lame. Religion w/o science is blind."
 
gh123
Posts: 645
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:09 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:10 pm

Quoting Redcordes (Reply 57):
Redcordes From United States, joined Jan 2006, 166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted Tue Aug 29 2006 15:02:58 UTC+2 and read 73 times:


Just read this quote from a NTSB spokesperson on the CNN website:

The data recorder recovered from the crash site showed that plane reached a top speed of 137 knots, or about 158 mph, she said.

Seems like 137 kts. would be fast enough to stay airborn with the proper configuration and attitude? I'm guessing this speed would be above the stall-speed--depending of course on the configuration.

It seems so. There was a man who was working on the farm where it crashed. He said that although the plane bounced on the bank, hit the fence it still looked as though it would have been able to take off and make it however, it hit the trees and that was the end of it.

Therefore it seems that if it wasn't for the trees they may have made it.......just!
 
gh123
Posts: 645
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:09 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:11 pm

According to the Lexington Daily Herald:

This is not the first time Polehinke has had a near-death experience.

His wife, Ida, shot him in the abdomen with a 9mm semi-automatic handgun in 1999. When police arrived at the home in Margate, Fla., they found Polehinke lying in his blood on the kitchen floor.

Polehinke said the shooting was an accident. His wife told police she shot Polehinke because she was in "fear" for her life after her husband threatened to kill her during an argument, according to a police report. Polehinke recovered from the shooting and declined to speak about it or press charges.

The couple have no children, but four dogs
 
mika
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2000 7:53 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:39 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 53):
All this is true but it seems he just made and honest mistake and lined up on the wrong runway.

Actually it wasn't him, the captain, that was at the controls of the plane out of LEX. It was the F/O, James Polehinke, that is now fighting for his life at the UK hospital.

Quoting Skaggs (Reply 56):
Here is a video of a flight I just made on MFS.

I made that very same re-enactment in FS myself the other day, using the Posky CRJ200. I do think that the Posky FDE is short of the real deal so to speak, just like you i was going at almost 140kts at the end of the rwy (which as far as i´m concerned is close to VR speed even in a fully loaded and properly configured A340 or B747), much less a CRJ with light fuel load. I managed to pull the nose up just before i hit the grass but i did eventually stall into the trees just after the rwy. As unrealistic as an MSFS simulation can be compared to real life flight it does give you a certain picture when you can sort of be there at that place yourself, even if it´s just virtually.
 
RobertS975
Posts: 974
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:17 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:59 pm

There is a realm of the power curve called the "coffin corner" for good reason. Flying at minimal airspeed, very high angle of attack... attempt to raise the nose to gain altitude can lead to a stall, loss of lift due to loss of ground effect, and even thrust issues due to disrupted airflow throw the engine intakes. Lower the nose to allow a gain in airspeed and the plane settles into the terrain. In addition, we do not know what structural damage to the wings, flaps, landing gear etc was sustained by hitting the airprot perimeter fence, shrubs and tress.
 
gh123
Posts: 645
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:09 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:07 pm

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 61):
In addition, we do not know what structural damage to the wings, flaps, landing gear etc was sustained by hitting the airprot perimeter fence, shrubs and tress.

In a report yesterday it said that the trees caused the plane to lose a wing and its tail.

According to a witness, the plane looked as though it was going to climb out until it hit the trees. And unfortunately when it did - that was the end of that.
Big version: Width: 583 Height: 410 File size: 702kb
 
808TWA
Posts: 664
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:54 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:09 pm

Quoting Mika (Reply 60):
Actually it wasn't him, the captain, that was at the controls of the plane out of LEX. It was the F/O, James Polehinke, that is now fighting for his life at the UK hospital.

On the ground, it is always the Captain (left seat) who steers the aircraft, no matter who will be "flying" the ship.

Ultimately it would have been the left seat occupant who would have steered onto the runway.

-Alan
Love is in the air, so practice safe flying
 
mika
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2000 7:53 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:42 pm

Quoting 808TWA (Reply 63):

On the ground, it is always the Captain (left seat) who steers the aircraft, no matter who will be "flying" the ship.

Ultimately it would have been the left seat occupant who would have steered onto the runway.

Oh is this so? I actually had no idea of that. I assumed that whoever was going to be the pilot flying that leg was the one who manouvered the A/C from gate to gate. Is this a common procedure used across the world?
 
okie73
Posts: 357
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:09 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:46 pm

Quoting 808TWA (Reply 63):
On the ground, it is always the Captain (left seat) who steers the aircraft, no matter who will be "flying" the ship.

not always true. There are some larger airplanes with nosewheel steering on both sides.
 
Dtw757
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 10:05 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 54):
I fly from Lexington a lot (small stuff - Cessna 182/172) and I completely agree with your post. However, the old taxi route as you know it has changed. It was confusing then but is even worse now!

Are there any diagrams or photos showing these changes?
721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,346,388,146,CR2,7,
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:59 pm

Quoting ARGIEPILOT (Reply 7):

Welcome to anet! Nice to have you with us all.
One Nation Under God
 
808TWA
Posts: 664
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:54 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:02 am

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 65):
not always true. There are some larger airplanes with nosewheel steering on both sides

I agree that there may be steering controls on both sides of some aircraft, but standard rules are that the left seat controls the steering of the aircraft on the ground, except on the take-off roll, where the control is passed to the pilot flying after a certain airspeed has been attained.


edit:clarification: "steering" refers to nosewheel steering

[Edited 2006-08-29 17:27:31]
Love is in the air, so practice safe flying
 
Vref5
Posts: 187
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:55 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 66):
Are there any diagrams or photos showing these changes?

From the Louisville Courier-Journal newspaper today:

http://www.courier-journal.com/assets/B239280829.JPG
 
etops1
Posts: 853
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:26 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting Skaggs (Reply 56):

Here is a video of a flight I just made on MFS.


dude , i did the same thing. posky a/c and all.
 
Vega9000
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:48 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:42 am

According to CNN, the pilots commented that the runway lights were out, but went ahead with the take-off.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/08/29/plane.crash/index.html
Don't believe anything you read on the net. Except this. Well, including this, I suppose.
 
KALB
Posts: 564
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:03 am

The current KLEX airport map expires 8/31 (http://map.aeroplanner.com/plates/FaaPlates_pdfs/00697AD.PDF), but still shows the old taxiway configuration. The photo from the Journal-Courier shows the new configuration. According to the FAA KLEX map, taxiway A goes to the approach end of RWY 26. To get to RWY 22 a plane would taxi straight across 26 to taxiway A-7, and its one left turn onto RWY 22 for take off.

With the new configuration a plane taxis on A to RWY 26 and then turns left across 26 to (new) A-7, then left onto RWY 22. If the crew had the current, but inaccurate KLEX map they would expect one left hand turn onto the active runway, not the two needed to get to RWY 22. Pre-dawn, light rain new taxiways, inaccurate map helped lead to this year's worst aviation accident in the US. Not the whole story, I'm sure, but certainly contributing factors.
 
jetBlue
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:11 am

Big version: Width: 612 Height: 456 File size: 155kb

That is definitely a confusing change they've made. It now seems much clearer at how easy it must've been to get them confused, especially since their airport diagrams from the charts probably had the old layout.

jetBlue
We know for you it's not just a seat on a flight to a place. It's a seat on a flight to your life.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 13703
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:12 am

Quoting Mika (Reply 60):
Actually it wasn't him, the captain, that was at the controls of the plane out of LEX. It was the F/O, James Polehinke, that is now fighting for his life at the UK hospital.

We can argue semantics all day. The captain was sitting there and had a head set on. He knew what runway they were cleared for. If he saw something amiss he would have intervened.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
rdhamr309
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:58 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:19 am

I was just reading in yahoo news saying the NTSB saying there might have been some confusion with the runway lights as they were slightly different when the crew arrived friday.They also say the FO was at the controls during takeoff.There was another article that the pilots wife states along with coworkers that the pilot was a by the book man and respected pilot from fellow pilots.
rdhamr309
 
808TWA
Posts: 664
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:54 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting Mika (Reply 64):
Oh is this so? I actually had no idea of that. I assumed that whoever was going to be the pilot flying that leg was the one who manouvered the A/C from gate to gate. Is this a common procedure used across the world?

Hi Mika, sorry I missed your response, but I think I answered it in reply 68.

In addition though, most aircraft (not all) only have a nose-wheel steering tiller on the left side of the captains seat.

-Alan
Love is in the air, so practice safe flying
 
Jumpseat70
Posts: 359
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2004 12:52 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:24 am

This man needs to find out what he's here for. Two, hopefully, "near death" experiences and he's, hopefully, still around. There is a purpose here for him.
"Up, Up and away with TWA"
 
n844aa
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:38 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting Jumpseat70 (Reply 77):
This man needs to find out what he's here for. Two, hopefully, "near death" experiences and he's, hopefully, still around. There is a purpose here for him.

I'm not making light of this tragedy, but when I heard there was one survivor, I was reminded of that movie "Unbreakable." To hear about his second close-call certainly doesn't dissuade me from thinking that.

I hope he pulls through, but if he does, I feel terrible for him and the burden he'll carry for the rest of his life. For a pilot to be the sole survivor of an air disaster evidently caused by pilot error is almost a cruel cosmic joke. I hope he's able to cope with it and that, someday, the families of the victims are able to offer him forgiveness.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
theunclesam
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:13 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting Skaggs (Reply 56):

Here is a video of a flight I just made on MFS.

If you check the CNN videos today, it looks like they did a MFS video as well. Pretty funny that they used it to "re-create" what happened. Fine for us that don't effect thousands of people's minds, but not fine for a news org to tout it as professional.
"So what's your robot do?" "Collects data about the surrounding enviroment. Then drives into walls."
 
808TWA
Posts: 664
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:54 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:54 am

Quoting Theunclesam (Reply 79):
If you check the CNN videos today, it looks like they did a MFS video as well. Pretty funny that they used it to "re-create" what happened. Fine for us that don't effect thousands of people's minds, but not fine for a news org to tout it as professional.

Plus they used the default Mircrosoft 737-400 aircraft. CNN must be getting their ideas from A.net! but at least we used the correct aircraft type in the program!

-Alan
Love is in the air, so practice safe flying
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting N844AA (Reply 78):
I hope he pulls through, but if he does, I feel terrible for him and the burden he'll carry for the rest of his life. For a pilot to be the sole survivor of an air disaster evidently caused by pilot error is almost a cruel cosmic joke. I hope he's able to cope with it and that, someday, the families of the victims are able to offer him forgiveness.

Is it known if he was pilot-in-command at the time of the crash? Depends on the location of the steering tiller on the CRJ.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
Dtw757
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 10:05 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:14 am

I too can see that the change in the taxiway would have added to the confusion. However and unforunately, that does not change anything. The pilots are ultimately responsible for their actions as heartbreaking as it is. Whether the lights were on or the signs were in place or the taxiway had been altered can not change the fact that they were cleared for takeoff on 22 and they lined the airplane up on 26 and pushed the throttles forward.

Not one single human being myself included is perfect and never makes a mistake. In this case two men made a mistake that morning that cost 49 lives. They did not intentionally take off on the wrong runway; it was a mistake pure and simple. I don't care how many times you do something and think you are good at what you do, you're going to make a mistake. Most of the time your mistake is not going to cost you or anyone else their life but there is the occasion such as this that it does.

My thoughts are with the families of this accident.
721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,346,388,146,CR2,7,
 
zrb2
Posts: 862
Joined: Sat May 20, 2000 10:07 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:20 am

How ironic that the FAA mandate to lengthen the safety areas on runways was a small part in why this plane crashed (i.e. changing the taxi pattern to rwy 22 due to construction).

The more you read about this, the more it's just a horrible error made by the guys up front who we trust our lives to. Mistakes happen, no doubt...but this one was just too easily preventable. Let's face it, when you do something everyday like driving for example, sometimes you get lax. Maybe flying is the same way. I hope airline carriers are pounding it into all their employees this week the importance of every minute detail regarding their flights. Take nothing for granted.
 
71Zulu
Posts: 1932
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:42 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 81):
Is it known if he was pilot-in-command at the time of the crash? Depends on the location of the steering tiller on the CRJ.

The Captain is always the Pilot in Command (PIC) even though the First Officer happens to be flying that particular leg.
 
MD88Captain
Posts: 1224
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 9:50 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:29 am

The PIC is the person who signs for the aircraft - the Captain. The PF (pilot flying) is the one at the controls. The PM (pilot monitoring) or PNF (pilot not flying) can also be the PIC. I know some are taught and log PIC time when they didn't actually sign for the aircraft, but not in Part 121. BTW, It "pilot in command" and not "pilot in control".
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 2368
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:29 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 81):
Is it known if he was pilot-in-command at the time of the crash? Depends on the location of the steering tiller on the CRJ.

I did see a report that the copilot was the pilot flying ...

(typical media+grain of salt disclaimer)

- litz
 
contrails
Posts: 1314
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2000 11:53 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 82):
I too can see that the change in the taxiway would have added to the confusion. However and unforunately, that does not change anything. The pilots are ultimately responsible for their actions as heartbreaking as it is. Whether the lights were on or the signs were in place or the taxiway had been altered can not change the fact that they were cleared for takeoff on 22 and they lined the airplane up on 26 and pushed the throttles forward.

My thoughts also.

I had been wondering how the accident happened ever since Sunday morning, but now I think I understand. Such a simple yet costly mistake. How sad.
Flying Colors Forever!
 
Vref5
Posts: 187
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:55 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:46 am

Quoting Litz (Reply 86):
Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 81):
Is it known if he was pilot-in-command at the time of the crash? Depends on the location of the steering tiller on the CRJ.

I did see a report that the copilot was the pilot flying ...

(typical media+grain of salt disclaimer)

To clarify:

The distinction can be a little subtle. PIC is the person in the plane with the ultimate legal authority for safe flight. This doesn't have to be the person actually at the controls. As you noted, the First Officer was indeed the PF (pilot flying) for that segment -- the NTSB confirmed this.

With commercial aviation / Part 121 service, the Captain is the designated PIC, regardless of if he/she is at controls for that segment or not.

Situation a while ago with another aviation incident that made the news was when a student pilot and a pilot were in a Cessna 152 that wandered into the Washington D.C. restricted airspace zone without getting permission to enter first because they had blundered into it without realizing it at first.

The student pilot was at the controls, but was not legally charged with anything. The certificated pilot, however, was nailed. Why him and not the student pilot?

The FAA's reasoning: the student pilot was legally incapable of being PIC prior to earning the private pilot certificate, and so PIC therefore was the other pilot whom did hold a valid private pilot certificate and was capable of being PIC.

Result? The other pilot (not the student) was considered to be the pilot in command, so the violation was nailed to his record.

The distinction of PIC doesn't mean much to non-pilots, since PIC usually comes up in a logging flying hours context, job related application, or in a regulatory action context.

Most likely, whomever originally asked about PIC meant to ask whom was at the controls. It's somewhat subtle, but the distinction is legally important to pilots.

[Edited 2006-08-29 19:48:19]
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 84):
The Captain is always the Pilot in Command (PIC) even though the First Officer happens to be flying that particular leg.



Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 85):
The PIC is the person who signs for the aircraft - the Captain. The PF (pilot flying) is the one at the controls. The PM (pilot monitoring) or PNF (pilot not flying) can also be the PIC. I know some are taught and log PIC time when they didn't actually sign for the aircraft, but not in Part 121. BTW, It "pilot in command" and not "pilot in control".



Quoting Litz (Reply 86):
I did see a report that the copilot was the pilot flying ...

(typical media+grain of salt disclaimer)

Indeed I stand corrected...thank you for the responses! So, is it as of yet too early to firmly establish who was the Pilot Flying at the time of the crash?

Either way, a cockpit crew is a team. The team made a tragic mistake, but I am curious as to who was PF on board.

May God bless the victims and the survivor.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting Vref5 (Reply 88):
Vref5 From United States, joined Dec 2005, 6 posts, RR: 0
Reply 88, posted Tue Aug 29 2006 19:46:32 UTC+2 and read 39 times:

hmmmm, I was a little late there with my post. Thank you Vref. So indeed, legally speaking as of the preliminary findings, the Captain looks to be at fault, even if the F/O was working the aircraft.

I always though PIC was the one in direct control of the aircraft and thus in command of it. I guess I confused it with PF.

I hope the F/O recovers. As hard as this will be on him (again, thoughts and prayers to all those on board) what information he has can help prevent such accidents from occuring again.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
727forever
Posts: 304
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:50 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:47 am

The microsoft flight sim 2004 demo is nice, but not quite accurate. I'll admit, after 7,000 hours of flight time, I still play that thing from time to time. The Project Open Sky CRJ-200 is a very nice, high quality model, but you can't use it for accurate flight dynamics. It is good, but the acceleration rates and flying quality can not be used for an accurate demonstration of how close the this situation was for the actual aircraft.

Also, the scenery for KLEX on MS-Flightsim is good, but not accurate. To be accurate the straight section of taxiway A prior to runway 26 would need to be longer. Also the taxi route makes a large arc around the terminal environment. Additionally, it shows lights on 26 but does not have the runway slope. MS-Flightsim does not have slope on their runways which does change both the visual cues and how the aircraft will accelerate. Going up a slope (first 1,200' of 26) the aircraft will accelerate slower but going back down the slope it will accelerate faster. Also, on the approach end of 26 (first 1,200' or so) you can not see the departure end in the CRJ. The slope is too high and the CRJ sits too low to the ground.

It was a nice video though. For your future flying the proper N1 for takeoff would be 85% for a max flex and somewhere in the range of 89.5-91% for max takeoff thrust.  Smile

727forever
727forever
 
KarlB737
Posts: 2872
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:48 am

Courtesy: The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Comair Flight Almost Made It; Mystery Deepens

http://www.airportbusiness.com/artic.../article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=7824
 
beefstew25
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:40 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:58 am

Which runway did they pave? 22 or 26?
MLB
 
bonjourmoi44
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:40 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:05 am

22 and a very small part of 26 where it intersects with 22.
 
avi8tir
Posts: 401
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:34 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:36 am

Can anybody give an estimate of V1, Vr, V2 would have been on this flight?
*Long live the Widget*
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:41 am

Quoting Redcordes (Reply 57):
Seems like 137 kts. would be fast enough to stay airborn with the proper configuration and attitude? I'm guessing this speed would be above the stall-speed--depending of course on the configuration.

137 kts is just barely flying at the almost 50,000 lb T/O weight in that aircraft. I knew the CA, and always thought him to have a very professional attitude. I am still trying to reconcile what I know about him with what happened.

[Edited 2006-08-29 21:54:34]
Proud OOTSK member
 
jhooper
Posts: 5561
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:51 am

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 85):
I know some are taught and log PIC time when they didn't actually sign for the aircraft, but not in Part 121. BTW,

It's interesting that you can log PIC time as long as you're "sole manipulator of the controls" on an aircraft in which you're rated, regardless of whether or not you're the PIC. That's why when most airlines ask you for your PIC time on their applications, they specify PIC time, per FAR Part 1 definition , i.e. the person legally responsible for the aircraft.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
KarlB737
Posts: 2872
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:42 am

Courtesy: WHAS-TV -- 04:18 PM EDT on Tuesday, August 29, 2006

Reporters Allowed On Crash Site

http://www.whas11.com/topstories/sto.../WHAS11_TOP_PoolFeed.49c00c0d.html
 
KarlB737
Posts: 2872
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part 4

Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:49 am

Courtesy: WLEX-TV

First Video From Crash Site - Raw and not yet edited.

http://www.wlextv.com/global/video/p...p%3A//www.wlextv.com/&rnd=81526768

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos