xiaotung
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NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:03 am

Just heard from a friend in Shanghai who recently applied for Air NZ Shanghai based cabin crew and she told me about a shocking pay of only RMB7,000 a month. That's only NZ$350 a week. The fact is most experienced Shanghai residents won't even consider to accept this low pay. NZ have recruited most Chinese cabin crew from other parts of China. This is a cruel fact that NZ took advantage of the cheap labor to the fullest.
 
airnewzealand
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:04 am

Happens everywhere buddy...all airlines do it!

Also...dont forget to take into account the allowances the crew will recieve! I can assure you now, if FARSA havent put a stop on what trips the crew can do, theyll be doing AKLHKGLHR in no time! And for that matter, all of the AirNZ network bar the USA.

Cheers
 
TG992
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:39 am

Quoting Xiaotung (Thread starter):
The fact is most experienced Shanghai residents won't even consider to accept this low pay.

Unfortunately, applicants have overwhelmingly applied to receive this pay. Most of those were accepted have degrees AND other airline experience (a lot of ex-JL, CX crew in there).

This is what free trade has accomplished - paying foreigners a pittance while New Zealanders (and Australians, in the case of Qantas) can only dream of getting the job nowadays.
-
 
planemanofnz
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:09 pm

Just to clarify, are all of the flight attendants on the AKL-PVG and PVG-AKL flights going to be Chinese/Asian? No kiwi's at all apart from the pilot's? If NZ is doing this for PVG, then why didn't they only get japanese crew for the KIX and NRT flights? Is it because the Japanese won't work for such little pay?
 
777ER
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:50 pm

Quoting Xiaotung (Thread starter):
This is a cruel fact that NZ took advantage of the cheap labor to the fullest.

To say that is total BS. NZ is hiring Asian Crews, like what other non-asian airlines do because of the advantages of having different FA cultures on its flights because of the different cultures that fly on NZs services.

Quoting Xiaotung (Thread starter):
shocking pay of only RMB7,000 a month. That's only NZ$350 a week.

Just remember that some of NZs lowest payed workers, like commercial cleaners are payed that much each week. Thats the same pay rate for many high payed workers in America.
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Zkpilot
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:34 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 3):
Just to clarify, are all of the flight attendants on the AKL-PVG and PVG-AKL flights going to be Chinese/Asian? No kiwi's at all apart from the pilot's? If NZ is doing this for PVG, then why didn't they only get japanese crew for the KIX and NRT flights? Is it because the Japanese won't work for such little pay?

No, The Pilots will be kiwis as will the FSM and ISC (head F/A and assistant) will be kiwis, the rest of the crew will be Shanghai based with the majority being Chinese nationals, there will be quite a few NZL based crew transferring up to Shanghai on I think its a 2 year contract before returning to NZL. Whether or not they will be replaced/renewed in Shanghai will all depend upon the performance of the Chinese based crews I suppose.

As for the Japan flights, there are many Japanese speakers that are NZL based (both Japanese and Kiwis who speak Japanese). The Japanese market is quite a unique one and NZ wanted to give them a kiwi experience the whole way from when they first get on the plane til when they get off back in Japan. Obviously the food menu is modified to suit the tastes more. NZ also operates to 2 Japan cities (it used to be 3)... it would be quite expensive to have to fly crew from one city to the other (or have 2-3 Japan bases).

Also don't forget this:

Quoting Airnewzealand (Reply 1):
Also...dont forget to take into account the allowances the crew will recieve!

Allowances make up a big part of F/A pay.
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TBCITDG
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:02 pm

Come on!
It is beyond obvious that the main reason for the hiring of crew in Shanghai is to save money!
Am not too sure where the myth was created that it will be done to diversify the crew compliment. The main reason many airlines use off shore bases is to save money. On wages, accommodation, super, and so forth.
Not only that, but Shanghai based crew will most likely have very different working conditions to that of NZ locals.
Look at what a Australian crew earns/works compared to a New Zealand based crew member. Same job VERY different conditions.

I believe that the same thing does not happen in Japan, due to the strong labour laws that protect locals.
 
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zeke
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:25 pm

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 6):
It is beyond obvious that the main reason for the hiring of crew in Shanghai is to save money!

Language skills as well.

If I recall correctly the starting wage for 777 FO at China Southern was US$1000/month, that is considered a very good wage.

NZ$350 a week buys a lot in China.
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Emirates Skies
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:03 pm

Someone mentioned that a big part of flight crew pay is made up of allowances. WHAT ON EARTH WERE YOU THINKING???!!! HUH??!! ...WERE YOU THINKING THAT FLIGHT CREW SHOULD NOW TAKE THEIR OWN FOOD TO WORK TO LAST THEM THE SEVERAL DAYS OF THE WHOLE TRIP THEY ARE AWAY???!!! FYI, crew go through the same quarantine procedures as pax when entering NZ or Australia! You know that don't you??!!! Certain people and their posts are a real laughing stock! ...And for goodness' sake, just check your facts before posting your rubbish here: some airlines pay a pittance of an allowance... which, for your information, does not cover having proper meals at crew hotels. Gimme a break, will you??!! Thanks/
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HKGKaiTak
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:41 am

Quoting Xiaotung (Thread starter):
Just heard from a friend in Shanghai who recently applied for Air NZ Shanghai based cabin crew and she told me about a shocking pay of only RMB7,000 a month. That's only NZ$350 a week. The fact is most experienced Shanghai residents won't even consider to accept this low pay. NZ have recruited most Chinese cabin crew from other parts of China. This is a cruel fact that NZ took advantage of the cheap labor to the fullest.

Huh from what I can understand RMB7000 a month is pretty good going ... even in Shanghai ...

If the Shanghaiese doesn't want to accept this "low" pay, then good on people from other parts of China who will.
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Broocy
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:19 am

NZD350 a week is at or below minimum pay levels for a Kiwi working a 40 hour week here in New Zealand. (And I am sure that in a 7 day period NZ would get more than 36 duty hours out of the crew.) That's the rub. Will the lower ranked New Zealand based crew who have the language skills even get a look in on the PVG route? Maybe I have different expectations, but if I go to China, I expect to be served by Chinese people, not Westerners. (And I can't speak Chinese.)

Despite my misgivings, I am certain that the crew out of PVG will do a great job service-wise. I hope that the NZ staff out there direct any upset at the people who employed them and not the Chinese staff.
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:22 am

RMB7000 is OK as an industry standard here. For international airlines, that's about average, and I see no reason why NZ should pay much above that.

I genuinely believe that it was partly to save money, partly to diversify. English is not widely spoken in the mainland, even in Shanghai so it will serve this market better to have a few Chinese cabin crew.
 
airnewzealand
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting Emirates Skies (Reply 8):
Someone mentioned that a big part of flight crew pay is made up of allowances. WHAT ON EARTH WERE YOU THINKING???!!! HUH??!! ...WERE YOU THINKING THAT FLIGHT CREW SHOULD NOW TAKE THEIR OWN FOOD TO WORK TO LAST THEM THE SEVERAL DAYS OF THE WHOLE TRIP THEY ARE AWAY???!!! FYI, crew go through the same quarantine procedures as pax when entering NZ or Australia! You know that don't you??!!! Certain people and their posts are a real laughing stock! ...And for goodness' sake, just check your facts before posting your rubbish here: some airlines pay a pittance of an allowance... which, for your information, does not cover having proper meals at crew hotels. Gimme a break, will you??!! Thanks/

You need to chill out son!!! LOL...you have just made yourself look like the laughing stock...
Maybe you work for EK? I dont know but i work for QF and our allowances are of a good amount, so much so that i usually bring home atleast 200NZD per trip, and thats eating at 5 star restraunts and partying hard!
At the end of the day, i dont have to justify my statement to you as i am in the industry, have been flying for 3 years and know my facts quite well based upon AirNZ and Qantas.
Maybe you need to look at your facts, and see the EK pay their employees (Allowances) nothing compared to NZ and QF... theres some food for thought huh!!!

Cheers
 
MCOflyer
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:47 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 4):
Thats the same pay rate for many high payed workers in America.

Agreed, on a side note I make $150 a week for working at a local supermarket.

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planemanofnz
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:47 am

Quoting Broocy (Reply 10):
Maybe I have different expectations, but if I go to China, I expect to be served by Chinese people, not Westerners.

And what about the Chinese who will be coming to New Zealand? I wonder if they have the same 'expectations' as you. I think that the majority of people on this new PVG-AKL flight will be Chinese, like the rest of NZ's Asian services - (KIX, HKG, NRT.) And while I believe they would like a bit of Kiwi personality on the way to NZ, they still want to be able to communicate freely and easily with the staff. For that reason I think that NZ should have split the crew maybe half NZ based and half Shanghai based, I mean it is not like NZ does not have more than a few mandarin speakers on it's cabin staff list.

On a seperate note, I wonder if NZ will produce a seperate safety video for the PVG flights that has mandarin instructions on it aswell as english?
 
koruman
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:50 am

Surely if the wages are going to be as low as Asian carriers, it should follow that the number of flight attendants should be as high as on an Asian airline.

Seems like NZ is trying to have it both ways. "Our higher wages mean we use less flight attendants" on the one hand, but "it's an Asian destination so we'll use Asian staff on Asian wages" on the other.

Shanghai's a great city, but I still think it's a lousy market for NZ and QF, and that Beijing is even worse. If HKG can only work as a stopover en route to London, does anyone seriously think AKL-PVG is going to be full of premium class high-yield traffic rather than discount economy class students on their way to and from New Zealand?
 
airnewzealand
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:01 am

Quoting Koruman (Reply 15):
Shanghai's a great city, but I still think it's a lousy market for NZ and QF, and that Beijing is even worse. If HKG can only work as a stopover en route to London, does anyone seriously think AKL-PVG is going to be full of premium class high-yield traffic rather than discount economy class students on their way to and from New Zealand?

Your indications are false...QF make PVG work... and it should be making a profit by the end of this year...
If you would like to know, i have operated these flights dozens of times and there is hardly any "students" as you put it anywhere on the plane. It is mainly expats on their way home to OZ or NZ.
To also let you know, Premium is ALWAYS FULL!!!!!!! I have never done a PVG with 1 JC seat avaliable and i have been their atleast 10 times.

Cheers
 
supa7E7
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:04 am

$350 a week is a very high wage in China, even Shanghai.

Edit: No idea what NZ $ are. I was talking US$.

[Edited 2006-09-01 04:08:43]
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HKGKaiTak
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:22 am

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 11):
English is not widely spoken in the mainland, even in Shanghai so it will serve this market better to have a few Chinese cabin crew.

One question that's come to my mind is that the FA's from "foreign" provinces will not speak Shanghaiese ... which would not go down too well with Shanghaiese pax.

(Shanghaiese and Chinese Mandarin are very different, I should know, I'm half Shanghaiese)
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TBCITDG
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:21 pm

Why do some people make the allowance part of their pay scales.
Isn't that a little too risky?

That should be an additional bonus that is given to you for food expenses and not calculated as if it where part of your pay.

What if suddenly you had no trips that offered allowances?
What then?

As for the Shanghai base: Isn't it great when people view it 'OK' to earn such a crappy pay, yet God forbid if they in turn should earn roughly the same in their own country?

HKG may only work as a stop over for NZ, but it has worked just fine for QF. PVG and PEK are two new/emerging markets. I read an article that states QF is loosing a lot of $$ on the Beijing run, but hopes to make it profitable by the end of the year.
 
planemanofnz
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:32 pm

Quoting Airnewzealand (Reply 16):
it should be making a profit by the end of this year...

Yes, it should be, but remember, it only should be, it is not making a profit as of yet. And how long has QF been operating the route?

Quoting Airnewzealand (Reply 16):
To also let you know, Premium is ALWAYS FULL!!!!!!!

Premium is full to Australia. Australia is not NZ, and although many people might not like to believe it, NZ and OZ are 2 different markets. Don't compare apples with oranges, QF may 'make' PVG work, but just because they do, does not mean NZ will.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 17):
$350 a week is a very high wage in China, even Shanghai.

Edit: No idea what NZ $ are. I was talking US$.

1 NZ dollar will probably get you around 58 US cents.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 15):
Surely if the wages are going to be as low as Asian carriers, it should follow that the number of flight attendants should be as high as on an Asian airline.

Exactly what was on my mind!

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 19):
QF is loosing a lot of $$ on the Beijing run, but hopes to make it profitable by the end of the year.

Yes well hopefully NZ won't go to PEK, or else they will waste alot of money and time trying to make it 'work.'

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 18):
One question that's come to my mind is that the FA's from "foreign" provinces will not speak Shanghaiese ... which would not go down too well with Shanghaiese pax.

(Shanghaiese and Chinese Mandarin are very different, I should know, I'm half Shanghaiese)

What do you mean? Is it different accents like British English and Kiwi English or is it 2 completely different languages? On all the websites and travel guides I've read it says that there is really only 2 languages of China, Cantonese and Mandarin.....maybe they were wrong?
 
airnewzealand
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:37 pm

TBCITDG...

You are absolutely correct,

BUT...my statement was purely advised towards the PVG based crew. Their is no destination that AirNZ fly to where the allowance will be less than that of the Chinse dollar (Yuan).

The many many times that i have been to China, our allowance is subsequently the amount an average person in Shanghai would earn in a week, and this is for 24 hours. Our Allowances pay for alot of things that we have but never nesessities such as mortgages, loans etc etc... Allowances are something that we live off in terms of luxuries and also our cost of living whilst away!- if we chose to bring it back to our repected bases so be it.

I hope that explains it a bit better.
 
xiaotung
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:59 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 20):
What do you mean? Is it different accents like British English and Kiwi English or is it 2 completely different languages? On all the websites and travel guides I've read it says that there is really only 2 languages of China, Cantonese and Mandarin.....maybe they were wrong?

The Shanghai dialect is only spoken in Shanghai and can only been understood in Shanghai and it's neighbor provinces. But all Shanghai people speak Mandarin as well. And the Shanghai government encourages Mandarin in formal occasions. So Mandarin speaking cabin crew would be enough for the PVG route.
 
777ER
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:46 pm

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 6):
It is beyond obvious that the main reason for the hiring of crew in Shanghai is to save money!

More like the main reason was to have chinese based crew operating the flights to help the chinese speaking passengers.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 17):
$350 a week is a very high wage in China, even Shanghai.

Edit: No idea what NZ $ are. I was talking US$.

When I converted 800 something US dollars into NZ$ a few weeks ago I got NZ$1200. One NZ$ is currently worth about 65 cents. Its risen a bit since I got back from 10 weeks in the states

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 19):
That should be an additional bonus that is given to you for food expenses and not calculated as if it where part of your pay.

Why not include it in your pay if you have left over from the 'bonus'?
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carnoc
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:29 pm

It's simply supply and demand...

There are enough applicants for the positions, so it indicates the base wage & bonuses are sufficient enough to attract the necessary number of Chinese cabin crews to work for Air New Zealand.

Who really gives a damn whether or not they are Shanghai residents? Air New Zealand was hiring Chinese cabin crews regardless of their origins, period.

Regards.

[Edited 2006-09-01 09:31:24]
 
TBCITDG
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:32 pm

I beg to differ 777.
I could be wrong, but are there not enough Chinese speaking crew that currently work in NZ.
And if not, then why not hire more of the local work force that do speak the lingo and are able to offer it with the 'kiwi' touch?
 
NZ560
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:44 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 23):
More like the main reason was to have chinese based crew operating the flights to help the chinese speaking passengers.

And also to save money. In aviation you can not afford to be losing money at this point in time. Thats why NZ pulled SIN because it was losing money.
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Emirates Skies
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:06 pm

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 19):
Why do some people make the allowance part of their pay scales.
Isn't that a little too risky?

That should be an additional bonus that is given to you for food expenses and not calculated as if it where part of your pay.

What if suddenly you had no trips that offered allowances?
What then?

Well said TBCITDG! Exactly my point.

Quoting Airnewzealand (Reply 12):
I dont know but i work for QF and our allowances are of a good amount, so much so that i usually bring home atleast 200NZD per trip, and thats eating at 5 star restraunts and partying hard!

Oh really??!! Smells of fat lies to me. Anyway, unless you are Zkpilot posting under a different username, AFAIK, nobody asked you to speak on his/her behalf (as we say over here, Loose Lips Sink Ships).
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NZ560
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:23 pm

Quoting Emirates Skies (Reply 27):
Oh really??!! Smells of fat lies to me. Anyway, unless you are Zkpilot posting under a different username, AFAIK, nobody asked you to speak on his/her behalf (as we say over here, Loose Lips Sink Ships).

Hmmm. I can't smell anything. Maybe it's only you.  talktothehand 
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planemanofnz
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:42 pm

Quoting NZ560 (Reply 28):
Hmmm. I can't smell anything. Maybe it's only you.

Now now, no need to get stroppy and post rude remarks.....getting back on topic......I think what NZ should have done is split the crew half Chinese and half New Zealand. Why does PVG get all local crew where as NRT, KIX, HKG, SFO e.t.c do not?

Quoting NZ560 (Reply 26):
Thats why NZ pulled SIN because it was losing money.

Yes but why was it loosing money, ask yourself that. Was it the rising fuel costs, or poor mis-management on NZ's behalf e.g - not giving SIN enough time to make itself profitable with the new 777 products? And if SIN was not profitable, then how is PVG going to be? Sure, PVG may be profitable in the future, but if NZ is expecting it to become a money making machine within the same amount of time that they gave SIN the 777 product, then they are dreaming.

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 25):
I could be wrong, but are there not enough Chinese speaking crew that currently work in NZ.

There IS enough chinese speaking crew already in NZ's staff roll. There were always F/A's on the flights that I have been to SIN, HKG and TPE that could speak Chinese.
 
NZFan
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:24 pm

Quoting Emirates Skies (Reply 27):
Oh really??!! Smells of fat lies to me. Anyway, unless you are Zkpilot posting under a different username, AFAIK, nobody asked you to speak on his/her behalf (as we say over here, Loose Lips Sink Ships).

I honestly don't think it is inappropriate for him to speak of what he knows and it is not because it goes against what you think and said that he's should not be allowed to speak from his experience, especially as your post referred as someone some and certain people

Quoting Emirates Skies (Reply 8):
Someone mentioned that a big part of flight crew pay is made up of allowances. WHAT ON EARTH WERE YOU THINKING???!!! HUH??!! ...WERE YOU THINKING THAT FLIGHT CREW SHOULD NOW TAKE THEIR OWN FOOD TO WORK TO LAST THEM THE SEVERAL DAYS OF THE WHOLE TRIP THEY ARE AWAY???!!! FYI, crew go through the same quarantine procedures as pax when entering NZ or Australia! You know that don't you??!!! Certain people and their posts are a real laughing stock! ...And for goodness' sake, just check your facts before posting your rubbish here: some airlines pay a pittance of an allowance... which, for your information, does not cover having proper meals at crew hotels. Gimme a break, will you??!! Thanks/



Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 29):
Now now, no need to get stroppy and post rude remarks

i'm sorry to say but from my point of view Emirates Skies wasn't the most polite and tactful either!
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:50 pm

Quoting Emirates Skies (Reply 8):
Someone mentioned that a big part of flight crew pay is made up of allowances. WHAT ON EARTH WERE YOU THINKING???!!! HUH??!! ...WERE YOU THINKING THAT FLIGHT CREW SHOULD NOW TAKE THEIR OWN FOOD TO WORK TO LAST THEM THE SEVERAL DAYS OF THE WHOLE TRIP THEY ARE AWAY???!!! FYI, crew go through the same quarantine procedures as pax when entering NZ or Australia! You know that don't you??!!! Certain people and their posts are a real laughing stock! ...And for goodness' sake, just check your facts before posting your rubbish here: some airlines pay a pittance of an allowance... which, for your information, does not cover having proper meals at crew hotels. Gimme a break, will you??!! Thanks/

When you are at home do you buy your own food like the majority of people do? yes.
When you are away are you eating the food at home? no
When you are away do you have to eat at ****/***** restaurants? no
Does it cost much more to have a simple but nice meal in most places that QF/NZ fly to? no.
Point: You are eating what you would be at home anyway (which you pay for with your salary at home). So being paid an allowance is in reality a bonus, and 90% of F/A that I know (and I know a hell of a lot of NZ and QF F/A) end up with extra left over at the end of their trips.

As for your nasty remarks, I guess it just shows your level of maturity (or rather lack of maturity).

Quoting Koruman (Reply 15):
Surely if the wages are going to be as low as Asian carriers, it should follow that the number of flight attendants should be as high as on an Asian airline.

Seems like NZ is trying to have it both ways. "Our higher wages mean we use less flight attendants" on the one hand, but "it's an Asian destination so we'll use Asian staff on Asian wages" on the other.

NZ fits less people on its aircraft than many of the so called "Asian Airlines" so need less crew... having said that, yes crew ratios could be slightly better.

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 19):
Why do some people make the allowance part of their pay scales.
Isn't that a little too risky?

That should be an additional bonus that is given to you for food expenses and not calculated as if it where part of your pay.

What if suddenly you had no trips that offered allowances?
What then?

For NZ, the only trips that don't get allowances are double-bangers (shorthaul flights with longhaul crew). Yes allowances do vary up and down, month to month, but on the whole it averages out and adds significantly to a F/A's wages...particularly since they are tax free allowances.

Quoting Emirates Skies (Reply 27):
Oh really??!! Smells of fat lies to me. Anyway, unless you are Zkpilot posting under a different username, AFAIK, nobody asked you to speak on his/her behalf (as we say over here, Loose Lips Sink Ships).

A bit paranoid there aren't you mate?

Quoting NZ560 (Reply 28):
Hmmm. I can't smell anything. Maybe it's only you.

 Smile
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zeke
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:56 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 29):
There IS enough chinese speaking crew already in NZ's staff roll. There were always F/A's on the flights that I have been to SIN, HKG and TPE that could speak Chinese.

Chinese is a family of languages and dialects with Mandarin, Wu, and Cantonese being the more popular forms. A Mandarin speaking FA would have difficulty communicating to a Cantonese speaking passenger.
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aerorobnz
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:02 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 29):
Yes but why was it losing money, ask yourself that.

1) Not enough passengers to SIN as a destination
2) Increased fuel prices
3) higher 772 operating costs
3) Not enough Cargo revenue to warrant the extra expense of the 772
4) The aircraft can be put to better use elsewhere. To start with on SFO/LHR/PVG

PVG is already showing very promising growth for us. The marketing and the product are aligned very well this time. You may also recall that we will be suspending flights rather than pulling out completely. I'm sure we will be back to SIN in the future, but for now our new 772s can be put to better use on other routes.

as far as f/a pay goes, if it were that bad people wouldn't be interested in the position would they? It's a living wage for China, that's more than most companies here can say. It's sensible to have a PVG crew as far as clientele/crew goes, and it's cost effective. That's good enough reason for it to happen.

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 29):
There IS enough chinese speaking crew already in NZ's staff roll. There were always F/A's on the flights that I have been to SIN, HKG and TPE that could speak Chinese.

actually there aren't that many, and allowing for downtime of each individual there are regularly flights that only have one speaker or even no speakers of the destination languages onboard.
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777ER
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:03 pm

Quoting Emirates Skies (Reply 27):
Quoting Airnewzealand (Reply 12):
I dont know but i work for QF and our allowances are of a good amount, so much so that i usually bring home atleast 200NZD per trip, and thats eating at 5 star restraunts and partying hard!

Oh really??!! Smells of fat lies to me

What smell, I can't smell any fat lies. All I can smell is the truth about allowances on QF and NZ Get your info correct before you accuse someone of lying! Treat others the way you want to be treated Emirates Skies!

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 29):
I think what NZ should have done is split the crew half Chinese and half New Zealand.

Isn't that what NZ is doing on its Asian flights?

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 29):
Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 25):
I could be wrong, but are there not enough Chinese speaking crew that currently work in NZ.

There IS enough chinese speaking crew already in NZ's staff roll. There were always F/A's on the flights that I have been to SIN, HKG and TPE that could speak Chinese.

Maybe there isnt enough to operate all the Asian flights now, so they are now looking at Asian based crews to operate NZ and UK bound flights, along with the english speaking crews

Quoting NZFan (Reply 30):
Quoting Emirates Skies (Reply 27):
Oh really??!! Smells of fat lies to me. Anyway, unless you are Zkpilot posting under a different username, AFAIK, nobody asked you to speak on his/her behalf (as we say over here, Loose Lips Sink Ships).

I honestly don't think it is inappropriate for him to speak of what he knows and it is not because it goes against what you think and said that he's should not be allowed to speak from his experience, especially as your post referred as someone some and certain people

AirNewZealand was talking about his job with QF and he is within his rights to say what QF also does

Quoting Emirates Skies (Reply 27):
nobody asked you to speak on his/her behalf

Where does he say he is speaking on ZKPilots behalf? AirNewZealand is friends with an NZ long haul FA, so he knows what allowances NZ FAs get. If your just going to be grumpy and arragant then don't reply to this topic intill you can reply with respect to others
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NZFan
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:12 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 34):
AirNewZealand was talking about his job with QF and he is within his rights to say what QF also does

Agreed
 
NZ747
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:08 pm

From my experiences in China, $350 is great pay over there. It can buy you a fk load of stuff.

Quoting Broocy (Reply 10):
if I go to China, I expect to be served by Chinese people, not Westerners

Your on a New Zealand airline who is representing New Zealand traveling to/from New Zealand. So why would you expect to be served by Chinese?

No offence to anyone here, but from travels to China I know what a lot of Chinese in china who speak English can't speak it for shit. As others have mentioned, there are so many different dialects, that a local from Beijing wouldn't easily be able to understand one from Shanghai. Trying to get a crew of Chinese from different parts of china who speak a common dialect is a joke.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 23):
More like the main reason was to have Chinese based crew operating the flights to help the Chinese speaking passengers.

Unless the F/A's and passengers are from the same province, this is completely useless.

Quoting Emirates Skies (Reply 27):
AFAIK, nobody asked you to speak on his/her behalf

As far as you know must be f/k all then?

NZ747
 
xiaotung
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:21 pm

Quoting NZ747 (Reply 36):
Trying to get a crew of Chinese from different parts of china who speak a common dialect is a joke.

This is not true. Although many dialects are spoken in different parts of China, every one can communicate in Mandarin including those speak Cantonese. Only a small portion of people from Hong Kong, usually elders, have difficulties understand Mandarin.
 
TBCITDG
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:27 pm

Aside from the wages, does any one know what the working conditions will be like?
I mean will they work 'more' than regular NZ crew?
Will they stay out at the airport as opposed to a 5 star place in the city of AKL?
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:55 pm

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 38):
Aside from the wages, does any one know what the working conditions will be like?
I mean will they work 'more' than regular NZ crew?
Will they stay out at the airport as opposed to a 5 star place in the city of AKL?

I heard it might be PVG-AKL (1day/night) - PVG (2days/nights) - AKL (1day/night) etc
Will still be a nice hotel... not 5star...
Novotel or similar most likely.
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Broocy
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Sat Sep 02, 2006 7:05 am

Quoting Broocy (Reply 10):
Maybe I have different expectations, but if I go to China, I expect to be served by Chinese people, not Westerners.

I wrote this statement poorly and I can see why my comment has been misunderstood by an number of posters. The comment was meant to refer to the overall experience. Of course if I am flying NZ, I expect the majority of the crew to be Kiwi, but I also expect some "local" crew for the market if it is warranted. I've been on a domestic NZ flight where a Japanese attendent was assigned to help with a large school exchane group for example. However, if I was flying Air China or Cathay to Asia, I would not expect a crew full of westerners to serve me just becasue I make up the ethnic majority of the market.

The reason I put that comment is because a big issue with the inbound Chinese tour market is that it is low yield and group based. This results in many Chinese tourists coming to NZ and only being guided by and interacting with fellow Chinese citizens. The tour operators are very good at taking them to Chinese owned and operated businesses here in NZ. This is contrary to Tourism NZ's strategy to attract high yield visitors who interact with the locals. Air NZ has often marketed itself as the first contact that many people have with NZ. I do not see how only 2 Kiwi crew- in supervisory positions at that too- can even remotely come close to providing such an experience to the passengers. Today the Dom Post reported that friendly Kiwis were highly rated in a tourism satisfaction survey.

(I must stress that I feel the same cringe with Western tourists, like those who hang out in the "Little Britains" enclaves on the Spannish coast.)

Should there be Chinese staff? Absolutely! But they should in no way make up more than half the crew. The high level of the foreign crews on this flights is obviously an outsourcing move by NZ management.
 
planemanofnz
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:51 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 31):
When you are at home do you buy your own food like the majority of people do? yes.
When you are away are you eating the food at home? no
When you are away do you have to eat at ****/***** restaurants? no

Look, this thread ain't no survey.....

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 31):
NZ fits less people on its aircraft than many of the so called "Asian Airlines" so need less crew... having said that, yes crew ratios could be slightly better.

On the 747's yes, because the seat pitch is 34" in Economy. But lets look at the 777-200ER as this is the aircraft used for the PVG route :
-NZ have 313 seats with 32" seat pitch in Economy
-SQ have 285 seats with 33" seat pitch in Economy
-MH have around 280 seats with 34" seat pitch in Economy
So, really there is no excuse for NZ not to be putting more F/A's on the flight if they are getting them so cheaply.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 32):
Chinese is a family of languages and dialects with Mandarin, Wu, and Cantonese being the more popular forms. A Mandarin speaking FA would have difficulty communicating to a Cantonese speaking passenger.

Yes, I understand that, but how many people really speak Cantonese in Shanghai? And I thought nearly everyone in Shanghai will be able to speak Mandarin? Isn't this Mandarin the same as Taiwanese Mandarin?

Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 33):
Not enough Cargo revenue to warrant the extra expense of the 772

What about Product competitiveness? Does that not warrant the extra expense of the 777-200ER, even if the Business Class prices were going up?

Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 33):
The aircraft can be put to better use elsewhere. To start with on SFO/LHR/PVG

What!? I thought NZ have too many long haul aircraft at the moment. They only have 6 777's at the moment with a further 2 on order. Where are these new aircraft going to be used? Not to mention the fact that NZ also has too many 747's for it's network.

Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 33):
Increased fuel prices

Increased fuel prices affect every route. If anything, it should affect SIN less than PVG as SIN is closer to AKL.

Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 33):
Not enough passengers to SIN as a destination

No, just huindreds of potential connecting flights to Europe, Africa, Middle East, India and Asia with numerous star alliance partners like SQ, TG, OZ, LX, LH, UA e.t.c.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 34):
Isn't that what NZ is doing on its Asian flights?

Not on the PVG flights, which technically is an Asian flight. All the F/A's on these flights will be Chinese.
 
airnewzealand
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:29 am

Quoting Koruman (Reply 15):
Shanghai's a great city, but I still think it's a lousy market for NZ and QF, and that Beijing is even worse. If HKG can only work as a stopover en route to London, does anyone seriously think AKL-PVG is going to be full of premium class high-yield traffic rather than discount economy class students on their way to and from New Zealand?



Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 20):
Premium is full to Australia. Australia is not NZ, and although many people might not like to believe it, NZ and OZ are 2 different markets. Don't compare apples with oranges, QF may 'make' PVG work, but just because they do, does not mean NZ will.

Planemanofnz...i was simply alerting to the above quote of Koruman...he mentioned QF...and this is incorrect...it does work for QF and the main reason the profits cannot extend is because they are not using the right aircraft on the route, as has been indicated to us staff through internal memos. This also happens to be the case with BJS.

Quoting Emirates Skies (Reply 27):
Oh really??!! Smells of fat lies to me. Anyway, unless you are Zkpilot posting under a different username, AFAIK, nobody asked you to speak on his/her behalf (as we say over here, Loose Lips Sink Ships).

Come back to me EKskies when you actually work for one of the above airlines and then give me your un informed "facts"...enough said! And just for your info, i work on an aircraft not a ship!!

In regards to QF i can only comment that we have three language speakers onboard...all SYD based and we get on fine. This is where i dont understand the "national language speaker" comments coming from. Its easy to hire nationals of the country...people who think that it is not based upon cost savings are being blind.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:24 am

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 41):
-NZ have 313 seats with 32" seat pitch in Economy

Actually I think you will find that NZ has 313 seats in total... 269 of these being Economy. (Likely to be 251 economy soon as 2 rows may be converted to a single row of Premium Economy soon, Giving total seat count of 304).

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 41):
Not on the PVG flights, which technically is an Asian flight. All the F/A's on these flights will be Chinese.

Wrong. The FSM and ISC will be New Zealanders, and about a dozen of the Shanghai based crew will be kiwis/expat kiwis.
64 types. 44 countries. 24 airlines.
 
planemanofnz
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:39 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 43):
Actually I think you will find that NZ has 313 seats in total... 269 of these being Economy. (Likely to be 251 economy soon as 2 rows may be converted to a single row of Premium Economy soon, Giving total seat count of 304).

Yes, that was I was syaing. I said that the Boeing 777's had 313 seats in them and the economy one's had a 32" seat pitch. I was comparing that to my above statement that NZ had 34" seat pitch in Y on their 747's.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 43):
a dozen of the Shanghai based crew will be kiwis/expat kiwis.

How much will these be getting paid?

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 43):
The FSM and ISC will be New Zealanders,

MOST of the crew will be Chinese.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Sat Sep 02, 2006 12:11 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 44):
How much will these be getting paid?

Depending on if they were crew transferring or new recruits it would be different. New recruits would get the same as Chinese.
Transferring crew would be on the same rate as they currently are, plus a relocation allowance.
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chinaeastern
Posts: 320
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:03 pm

common, RMB7000 is not bad for FAs at all. The pay should be aligned with local living cost instead of the living cost of another country. just think about how much everyone gets paid at Emirates. they live in Dubai and the living cost in Dubai is higher than in Shanghai yet no matter what nationality you are, you get paid the same rate, which by the way is $US1300, not much more than what people get paid in Shanghai by NZ.
 
777ER
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:40 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 41):
But lets look at the 777-200ER as this is the aircraft used for the PVG route :
-NZ have 313 seats with 32" seat pitch in Economy
-SQ have 285 seats with 33" seat pitch in Economy
-MH have around 280 seats with 34" seat pitch in Economy

SQ has two different B772ER classes. cabin one has 285 seats and cabin two has 323 seats. MH has 278 seats on its B772ER and MH also have 12 First Class seats. NZ have more seats because of less business class seats and more economy seats.
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planemanofnz
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:15 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 47):
MH has 278 seats on its B772ER and MH also have 12 First Class seats.

No actually. MH have re configured their 777's to now only have Economy and Golden Club classes.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 47):
SQ has two different B772ER classes. cabin one has 285 seats and cabin two has 323 seats.

Again, no. I said lets compare the 777-200ER, not the 777-200A. SQ's 772ER's have 285 seats and the non ER 772's have 323 seats.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 47):
NZ have more seats because of less business class seats and more economy seats.

No. SQ have 30 Business Class seats, NZ have 26. Only 4 seats difference! On top of this, NZ has a premium economy which takes up another 18 seats.

[Edited 2006-09-02 10:19:51]

[Edited 2006-09-02 10:22:18]
 
RichardJF
Posts: 565
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RE: NZ Shanghai Based Crew Wages

Sat Sep 02, 2006 6:19 pm

In NZ's case it's a good idea to get some low cost foreign F/A's. Must be slightly unsettling for NZ based crews when somebody turns up, works hard, looks smart, has a degree and gets paid far less than what they get.
Why has the qf board renewed peter griggs contract when there was so much of a stink about him before?

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