tripple7
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AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:09 pm

A couple of weeks ago I was wondering how many flights there are between Amsterdam and London airports on a typical weekday, in a topic about VLM's increase in frequency on the AMS - LCY route. Unfortunately nobody knew the answer or followed it up.

This morning I was reading an article on luchtvaartnieuws.nl (only in Ducth) about the amount of flights between AMS and London airports (City, Gatwick, Heathrow, Luton, and Stansted).

The statistics according to the article: Take for instance a typical weekday, for instance on Wednesday 20 September there are 61 (one way) flights. About 8000 - 8500 seats.

AMS-LHR 25x (KLM 9x, BA 8x, BD 8x)
AMS-LCY 18x (VLM 12x, KLM 6x)
AMS-LGW 10x (BA 6x, EZY 4x)
AMS-LTN 5x (EZY 5x)
AMS-STN 3x (EZY 3x)

Breakdown in number of flights per airline on the AMS - London market:
KLM: 15x
BA: 14x
EZY: 12x
VLM: 12x
BD: 8x

These are only one-way figures.

Is AMS - London the biggest European market when counted in number of flights? I have always thought it was the Dublin - Market, but apperently there are "just" 48 flights a day in this market.
 
Glareskin
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:23 pm

I think if you include LTN and STN as London airports you could as well add the RTM - LON flights.... This would even increase the traffic!
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tripple7
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:33 pm

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 1):
I think if you include LTN and STN as London airports you could as well add the RTM - LON flights.... This would even increase the traffic!

When RTM - London airports traffic is included, the number of flights is increased with 15.

RTM - LCY: 10 x (VLM)
RTM - LHR: 3 x (KLM)
RTM - STN: 2x (HV)

Adding RTM to these statistics is valid, as the distance between RTM and AMS is smaller than the distance between GTW and STN.
 
IBERIA747
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:35 pm

Quoting Tripple7 (Thread starter):
Is AMS - London the biggest European market when counted in number of flights?

Check MAD-BCN. I don't have the exact numbers right now but it has been Europe's busiest route by number of flights and pax for years.

At one point is has reached more than 100 daily flights each way. It's below that number currently I guess, but the amount of flights is still huge.

[Edited 2006-09-10 12:53:47]
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imatams
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:41 pm

Quoting Tripple7 (Thread starter):
These are only one-way figures.

Actually the numbers you mention are the number of return flights. So there are 61 RETURN flights...

IM
 
Joost
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:06 pm

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 3):
Check MAD-BCN. I don't have the exact numbers right now but it has been Europe's busiest route by number of flights and pax for years.

As ommitted by Tripple7, but correctly mentioned in the article he referred to, AMS-London is the busiest international market in terms of number of flights. BCN-MAD might wel have more flights, but obviously isn't international.
 
IBERIA747
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:14 pm

Quoting Joost (Reply 5):
As ommitted by Tripple7, but correctly mentioned in the article he referred to, AMS-London is the busiest international market in terms of number of flights. BCN-MAD might wel have more flights, but obviously isn't international.

I guess both of us are right then. Big grin
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[email protected]
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:54 pm

As of 11th January 2007, there will be 47 daily flights from DUB to LON (LGW, LTN, STN, LHR, LCY):

DUB-LGW = 6 FR; 4 BA
DUB-LTN = 3 FR;
DUB-STN = 10 FR
DUB-LHR = 13 EI; 6 BD
DUB-LCY = 5 WX

So just 1 flight less than AMS-LON.
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Joost
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:04 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 7):
As of 11th January 2007, there will be 47 daily flights
...
So just 1 flight less than AMS-LON.

How are you counting, James? There are 61 flights on AMS-LON, while there are 47 flights on DUB-LON. That's 14 flights less.
 
[email protected]
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:06 pm

Ah, yes. Sorry. I read the wrong bit.

Would be interesting to know how AMS-LON and DUB-LON compare re. number of seats.
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A388
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:11 pm

I always thought PAR-LON was the bussiest route but probably when looking at the capacity offered and not the number of flights. Judging by the number of flights between two cities is misleading if the aircraft type is not considered. Just my opinion.

A388
 
Joost
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:35 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 9):
Would be interesting to know how AMS-LON and DUB-LON compare re. number of seats.

Easy to make a rough estimate:

AMS-LON:
12x easyjet (mix 737/319) = 12x150 = 1800
18x flights to LCY, F50 = 18x50 = 900
KLM to LHR, 8x 738/739 (171/189 pax) = 8x180 = 1440
KLM to LHR 1x A332 = 250
BA, mix of 737 and 320 series, 14x150 = 2000
BD, 320 series, 8x145 = 1160

Total: about 7550

DUB-LON:
19x FR = 19x189 = 3591
4x BA = 4x150 = 600
13xEI = 13x150 = 1950
6xBD = 6x145 = 870
5xWX = 5x80 (?) = 400

Total: about 7411

Considering the roughness of the estimate, you can say the in terms of number of seats, DUB-LON and AMS-LON are very similar.

The most interesting part is, I think, that Dublin-London is very busy on DUB-STN, whereas for AMS this is the smallest route. On the other hand, from AMS there are an awful lot of frequencies to LCY, whereas there are only a few flighs from DUB to LCY. Does it say that from AMS, it's relatively more of a business market, whereas from Dublin there are relatively more VFR-passengers?
 
Joost
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:03 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 10):
Judging by the number of flights between two cities is misleading if the aircraft type is not considered. Just my opinion.

Well, as long as it is mentioned that the number of seats per aircraft is not considered, and that it only counts for the number of flights, it is not misleading  Wink

It also depends on what you want to know. If you count the number of seats you will have different numbers probably; on LON-PAR it's almost only 737/32S that have more seats than alle the F50s flying AMS-LCY. However, then you have a number - and then? If you want to find out traffic flows between cities, should you also include the Eurostar? That is IMO the main reason why there are way less PAR-LCY flights than AMS-LCY: the Eurostar is a very strong competitor in this segment, whereas from AMS the airplane is the only realistic way to make a daytrip to London. But if you include Eurostar, should you include people who take their car on the Eurostar and drive the rest? Do you include the students and other low-budget travelers that go with the Eurolines busses on the ferries?

There are so many variations even in defining, that, IMO, it is hard to have one big number that is undoubtable.

Personally, I expect the total amount of traffic London-Paris to be superior to Amsterdam-Paris, just because Paris is larger than Amsterdam/Randstad, population-wise and economically.
 
[email protected]
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:35 pm

Based on your rough figures, I’d like to add:

1) That it shows a wider range of seats exist on AMS-LON, between 50 and 250, than on DUB-LON, at 80-189; and

2) That the average number of seats per flight is 123 on AMS-LON and 158 on DUB-LON.

Regarding point 1, it is unfair because so many 50-seat machines operate between AMS and LCY – 18 in fact – compared to the biggest, seat-wise, at 250 (only 1). Moreover, theoretically the lower the seats the more the frequency (hence why VLM would reduce its frequencies if it operated 70-seat props) even if that does not always make commerical sense. And AMS-LON is far more connection-orientated than DUB-LON, hence the extra importance of more frequent flights.

Quoting Joost (Reply 11):
The most interesting part is, I think, that Dublin-London is very busy on DUB-STN, whereas for AMS this is the smallest route. On the other hand, from AMS there are an awful lot of frequencies to LCY, whereas there are only a few flighs from DUB to LCY. Does it say that from AMS, it's relatively more of a business market, whereas from Dublin there are relatively more VFR-passengers?

But for VLM’s recent expansion on AMS-LCY, it operated far fewer frequencies. And what if VLM did not operate? KLM would – at probably a handful per day. If VLM, a frequency-orientated airline, operated LCY-DUB, what would it operate? Based on 50 seats per F50 and 80 per 142, the current 5 WX flights would equate to 8 VLM flights. But I think it'd be more, subject to staff/aircraft/slot/etc availability.

In my opinion, DUB-LON generates far more O&D passengers than AMS-LON. Moreover, there is a far larger amount of VFR traffic – unsurprising, given the history and links – between DUB and LON. And also a very healthy mix of businesspeople, evidenced by the fact that a number of A.nutters fly LHR-DUB regularly for business. Why don’t they fly LCY-DUB? Is it because of the lack of convenience due to the relative lack of frequencies? It is because more people rather than those central London-based fly to DUB for business? It is because of the price? And that excludes those travelling for tourist reasons. I think the FR effect - which operates 19 frequencies in total to STN, LTN and LGW using 189-seat 738s - must not be underestimated. Indeed, I have seen many suit-wearing people queuing up for STN-DUB-STN when I've flown the route. But... is there the potential from LCY to DUB with VLM and plentiful frequencies? Who knows?

I think the question ought to be: but for AMS' importance as a connection airport, how many flights, overall, would operate to LON?

[Edited 2006-09-10 15:47:26]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
jamincan
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:22 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 13):
I think the question ought to be: but for AMS' importance as a connection airport, how many flights, overall, would operate to LON?

Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no first hand knowledge of this, but from talking to friends in the UK and NL, it seems that Amsterdam is a very popular vacation destination from the UK. While the O&D b/w Amsterdam and London might not be as high as Dublin to London, I expect it would still be very high.
 
Joost
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:35 am

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 13):
But for VLM’s recent expansion on AMS-LCY, it operated far fewer frequencies. And what if VLM did not operate? KLM would – at probably a handful per day.

Although it is basically impossible to answer a 'what if not'-question, here it is clear that VLM's competition has its effect on KLM. When VLM started operating, KLM reduced its service but now it reinstated many flights. This isn't only a competition issue, it also has a lot to do with the increased security measures and thus waiting times at LHR, increasing the ease of LCY. I think that a VLM-like operation on DUB-LCY could support more flights. With all other London airports clogging up more and more, I think that LCY has a good potential - although limited slots/infrastructure.

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 13):
In my opinion, DUB-LON generates far more O&D passengers than AMS-LON.
I think the question ought to be: but for AMS' importance as a connection airport, how many flights, overall, would operate to LON?

Though I suppose that DUB-LON has a greater O&D-potential than AMS-LON, I don't think it's 'far' greater. Of course, on AMS-LON there are connecting passengers both way - London residents changing at AMS for KLM flights, Dutch people changing at LHR for BA or StarAlliance flights.

On the other hand, due to the lack of intercontinental flights one can also argue that there are many connecting pax on the flights to LHR and LGW, as they have to transfer for intercontinental destinations. Enough guessing, but what else can you do without real figures.

However, there is plenty of O&D to London from the Netherlands. Not always realised is that AMS is the airport for the whole country, not just Amsterdam - a totally different situation from the UK where there seems to be an airport for every 25 houses. Okay, we have RTM and EIN but there traffic volume is 3-4% of the Dutch air traffic - so it's AMS for everything. There are very strong economic ties between both countries and it's also a popular tourist destinations from both sided. All flights from easyJet for instance, can be accounted for a good 100% O&D to start with.

However, it ain't a "mine's bigger than yours" thing, at least not for me.

My estimation for the future, wonder how you think about it
By increasing safety measures (and costs) and rising fuel costs, flying with a connection as an economically attractive alternative will decrease between AMS and LON. Whilst I understand the economic basics, it's actually ridiculous that there are many people flying AMS-LHR-LAX and just as many people LHR-AMS-LAX because they get a better price. When security charges keep on rising, connecting gets expensive and we will see this disappearing, basically moving towards a situation that costs both carriers less.

AMS and LHR will both keep on growing and getting more congested than they are. The number of connecting passengers will decrease, but we will see even more O&D-traffic, because of economic growth, globalisation, etc, etc. As STN will get its second runway and be the growing airport, I see a large part of the route growth going to STN.

From the Netherlands, national government is moving towards better use of regional airport, making it more and more attractive for Dutch orginating people to fly from RTM, EIN, GRQ, MST or ENS to London - here there is a role for Ryanair and possibly VLM.

Will be nice to read this after 10 years to look what happened.

[Edited 2006-09-10 17:36:30]
 
Glareskin
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:45 am

Quoting Tripple7 (Reply 2):
Adding RTM to these statistics is valid, as the distance between RTM and AMS is smaller than the distance between GTW and STN.

I'm glad that you agreed on this. So I wonder why every reply ignores this and only discusses AMS.  Confused
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
Joost
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:36 am

It is of course very relevant to mention RTM. Especially the RTM-LCY flights compete with AMS-LCY. From an-old collegue of mine, who quite frequently met mr. Rosen-Jacobsen (owner of VLM), I know that many people on the RTM-LCY flights are actually people from the Amsterdam regions who want to avoid the hassle of AMS. In that way, it's almost like LCY is for London.

On the other hand, it's a different city. London is more one city with large urban surroundings and cities that act like satellite cities in greater London, whereas the Randstad is an urban area made up of several cities that have an importance of it's own. And I might see it totally wrong, but in my view Rotterdam is more a city of it's own and (at least nationally) equally important for the country as Amsterdam, whereas for example Luton is more of a satellite for London. And thus LTN is more an airport for London iso Luton town, whereas RTM is an airport for Rotterdam, that can be used for people who would otherwise use AMS.
 
BestWestern
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:12 am

Using Innovata data, I ran a report to do this analysis for me.

Amsterdam - London

Airline Seats % of Total

BD 6907 16%
BA 13473 30% - Largest Carrier
U2 11632 26%
KL 10608 24%
VLM 1600 4%
Total 44220

Flights AMS LON 349

Dublin - London

EI 17252 32%
BD 8320 15%
BA 3375 6%
AF 2024 4%
FR 23436 43% Largest Carrier
Total 54407

Flights DUB LON 311

Data effective for period: 14-20 August 2006


edited to correct typo

[Edited 2006-09-10 19:15:44]
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kaitak744
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:24 am

Well, it is just because of the Euro Star train. If that did not exist, London-Paris would be the largest route in Europe by far.
 
Robbie86
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:25 am

Now the question that remains is. Is there more pax travelling LON-AMS to fly from AMS or the other way?
 
goldorak
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 10):
I always thought PAR-LON was the bussiest route but probably when looking at the capacity offered and not the number of flights



Quoting Joost (Reply 12):
Personally, I expect the total amount of traffic London-Paris to be superior to Amsterdam-Paris, just because Paris is larger than Amsterdam/Randstad, population-wise and economically.

In fact PAR-LON has been for a very long time the main line in term of traffic in Europe but not anymore since Eurostar started service. And things are getting worse for airlines with the decrease in travel time with Eurostar. Since the British finished the high speed line on their side , travel time between Paris and London is 2h35 and I think now Eurostar has about 60% of travel maket between the 2 cities (so 40% left for air travel). Currently there is a maxi total of 39 daily flights between the 2 cities (all airports) :
PAR-LCY : 7 flights (all AF, operated by City Jets BAe146)
PAR-LTN : 4 flights (all EZY with B737-700 or A319)
PAR-LHR : 28 flights (12 AF, 11 BA and 5 BD, all airlines with A320 family)
LGW and STN are not served anymore from Paris
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:27 am

Don't know whether AMS-LON is Europe's busiest route, although AMS is said by some, for good reason, to be "London's third airport."
 
vfw614
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:17 am

There are, by the way, 20 flights on AMS-LCY this winter - 12 VG, 8 KL. So you can add another 100 seats in each direction.
 
pilot21
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:51 am

From what I could find on the internet, Dublin-London is the 2nd busiest International air route in the world (Hong Kong - Taipei is No.1) and it is the busiest route in Europe. 4.5 million people use it annually.
On top of that, Dublin-Heathrow is the busiest EU route with just under 2.1 million people on the route followed by Heathrow- Amsterdam coming in at just over 2 million. Stansted - Dublin is almost 1.3 million.
These figures were from 2004, and come from Dublin airports' own website, UKInvest - a trade info. sheet from the British Govt. Trade Office & Wikipedia.
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
 
b741
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:29 am

AMS-LON is a real "metal market". Almost compares with LAX-SFO, YVR-Victoria and Rio-Sao Paulo.
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ScottishLaddie
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:08 am

By my reckoning there must be about 59 daily flights between EDI and LON during the week, must be up there.
 
jamincan
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:32 pm

Quoting B741 (Reply 25):
AMS-LON is a real "metal market". Almost compares with LAX-SFO, YVR-Victoria and Rio-Sao Paulo.

Just how many flights dose YVR-YYJ have? I checked on aircanada.com for Mon, Sept 18, and there were only 18. It seems that AMS-LON more than compares, in fact, I would say that YYJ-YVR isn't even in the same league.
 
[email protected]
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:54 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 18):
Amsterdam - London

Airline Seats % of Total

BD 6907 16%
BA 13473 30% - Largest Carrier
U2 11632 26%
KL 10608 24%
VLM 1600 4%
Total 44220

Flights AMS LON 349

Dublin - London

EI 17252 32%
BD 8320 15%
BA 3375 6%
AF 2024 4%
FR 23436 43% Largest Carrier
Total 54407

Flights DUB LON 311

Informative, Mr B.W.

Quoting Joost (Reply 15):
However, there is plenty of O&D to London from the Netherlands.

Of course there's plenty; there's no denying that. However, I still contend that DUB-LON generates more O&D traffic - both in the form of VFR passengers (think of the historic relationship between Ireland and the UK) and tourist passengers. And the number of business passengers ought not to be underestimated - despite VLM's expansion on LCY-AMS-LCY. Indeed, pre-expansion, WX, with 142s, would have had a greater or very similar capacity on LCY-DUB-LCY.
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ANother
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:49 pm

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 27):
Just how many flights dose YVR-YYJ have? I checked on aircanada.com for Mon, Sept 18, and there were only 18. It seems that AMS-LON more than compares, in fact, I would say that YYJ-YVR isn't even in the same league.

AC isn't the only operator. I had a look at the OAG for 18 Sep and found 85 one way flights from Vancouver (YVR CXH) to Victoria (YYJ YWH) 17 AC Jazz, 1 AC mainline, H3 - 27, JB - 14, 8P - 6 and 8O 21. Won't guess total number of seats but it wouldn't be anywhere near London - Amsterdam or Dublin. Largest is an AC A319 and smallest is a DHP (or one of the helicopters).
 
jwmd123
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:48 pm

Quoting Joost (Reply 11):
DUB-LON:
19x FR = 19x189 = 3591
4x BA = 4x150 = 600
13xEI = 13x150 = 1950
6xBD = 6x145 = 870
5xWX = 5x80 (?) = 400

Total: about 7411

I think you may need to revise your figures for the 13xEI flights. They use A321's on this route with a high density (A basic A321 has 185 seats, I think EI could be near the 200 mark). They announced before that they even intend to add more seats on the A321's.
 
Joost
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:54 pm

Quoting JWMD123 (Reply 30):
I think you may need to revise your figures for the 13xEI flights.

Ah, thanks for your correction! That likely makes the DUB-LON routes larger than AMS-LON, seatwise.
 
BestWestern
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RE: AMS - London Airports. Europe's Busiest Route?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 28):
Informative, Mr B.W.

Thanks

Quoting Joost (Reply 31):
That likely makes the DUB-LON routes larger than AMS-LON, seatwise.

DUB LON is a bigger route.

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 28):
And the number of business passengers ought not to be underestimated - despite VLM's expansion on LCY-AMS-LCY. Indeed, pre-expansion, WX, with 142s, would have had a greater or very similar capacity on LCY-DUB-LCY.

Interesting that on both DUB LON and AMS LON, 4% of the capacity on both routes is headed towards LCY! When WX ditch the 146's punctuality will improve, and so will ridership - probably the same when those nasty fokkers are also ditched.
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