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Mason
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More SLC-CDG Rumors

Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:51 pm

I know this has been discussed at length, but the Salt Lake Tribune is now reporting that the city of Salt Lake is giving DL up to US$6million as a financial incentive to begin SLC-CDG service. The link is no longer available, but the article mentioned flilghts as early as Spring 2007! Despite what people say on this forum, I believe DL could make this work with the 763. The strength of the SLC hub will support this service.
 
IADLHR
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:57 pm

I was in SLC on business about 6 weeks ago. There was a group of men speaking french and english staying at the same hotel. They were picked up at the hotel by a driver and so on. Later, I heard they were from Air France and that SLC might be getting service to CDG.

So maybe somewhere along the way that has changed and now it is DL who will start the service. Anyway, I have long, felt that perhaps there was a market for either CDG or LGW. However, since Bermuda II is a factor LGW seems like a very, very longshot. So CDG would be the next logical choice. I am not surprised at all.
 
FlightShadow
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:03 pm

Yes, if Salt Lake City will subsidize it, DL will start the route. And it's about time.

Although it is great news, from a spotter's perspective - we already get Delta 767s. How about an AF A340?  Smile
"When the tide goes out, you can tell who was skinnydipping."
 
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centrair
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:05 pm

This could work. With SLC being one of the largest hubs in the West, it could get local O&D and transfer.

It is cool to think about.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:08 pm

Quoting FlightShadow (Reply 2):
How about an AF A340?

Could a 343 get out of SLC in the summer? It's a serious question; they routinely take 8000 feet plus in CVG when its hot, and there's no elevation problem there.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
WesternA318
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:21 pm

Quoting FlightShadow (Reply 2):
How about an AF A340?

I would think AF brings in the A330-200 to such places?
 
LambertMan
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:21 pm

Quoting Mason (Thread starter):
The link is no longer available, but the article mentioned flilghts as early as Spring 2007! Despite what people say on this forum, I believe DL could make this work with the 763. The strength of the SLC hub will support this service.

I think that a lot of people have said that they would have tried it by now if they were going to try it, not that it wasn't going to work. With all of the feed that could possibly be had from the west coast, the flight could definitely be successful. With such a development CVG's CDG flight would definitely take a huge hit, maybe a knockout blow, as its overall role in the network has changed as JFK has already replaced CVG as their secondary European gateway.

I think that it could happen, but its probably not likely. If CVG-CDG is still producing profits, something that DL is obviously having trouble with, they may not mess with it. Why risk cannibalizing one profitable flight to try a new flight that really doesn't have much local traffic to it?
 
haggis79
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:57 pm

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 1):
I was in SLC on business about 6 weeks ago. There was a group of men speaking french and english staying at the same hotel. They were picked up at the hotel by a driver and so on. Later, I heard they were from Air France and that SLC might be getting service to CDG.

So maybe somewhere along the way that has changed and now it is DL who will start the service.

Well, I think it would most certainly be a codeshare between Delta and AF, so maybe thats what the AF folks were here for? Also, maybe thats too much to hope for, but might it be DL and AF are going to share the route/risk? Meaning one of them doing 3/7 and the other one 4/7?
300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
 
goldorak
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:30 pm

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 7):
Well, I think it would most certainly be a codeshare between Delta and AF, so maybe thats what the AF folks were here for? Also, maybe thats too much to hope for, but might it be DL and AF are going to share the route/risk? Meaning one of them doing 3/7 and the other one 4/7?

For sure, it will be code shared DL/AF. All US-France routes are like this. However, it seems very unlikely that both airlines will operate the route as you said (3/7 & 4/7). AF and DL have never operated like this (although it may begin one day or another). One question I have is : does DL have other long-haul routes from SLC ? If yes, it sems to me that they will operate the route, oherwise it might be difficult for them in term of logistics (having a single long-haul configured aircraft at SLC, crew issues, etc). If not, then AF could operate the route as they will not have these pbs (the rotation starting from CDG). And also, remember that AF was looking to open a new US direct destination by itself (it was addressed severa times in other posts). So it might be SLC. Another argument for that is the presence of AF guys in SLC. Do you think they would make the trip just to discuss a code-share on a DL flight ? But the argument against is the subsidies by SLC : these would go to DL but not AF, obviously.
Of course, I would apprecite any comments on that.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:24 pm

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 8):
oherwise it might be difficult for them in term of logistics (having a single long-haul configured aircraft at SLC, crew issues, etc

They could feed the operation via CDG in a ATL/CVG/JFK-CDG-SLC-CDG-ATL/CVG/JFK operational format. Very efficient system with minimum ground times and maximum utilization. No problems there.
 
haggis79
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:38 pm

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 8):
One question I have is : does DL have other long-haul routes from SLC ?

nope, the only international operations from SLC go to Mexico and Canada at the moment... the farthest point DL sends their planes to at the moment seems to be Hawaii to me... but those a/c are configured in a domestic layout

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 8):
But the argument against is the subsidies by SLC : these would go to DL but not AF, obviously.

this seems to be a strong point, as, from what the newspapers report in SLC, DL wants to start that route only if they get subsidized... and I can't really imagine the flight is going to be operated by Air France on behalf of Delta... might be they are actually talking about two routes? LGW operated by DL and CDG by AF?

Another issue seems to be how to handle immigration and all that stuff at SLC... the airport isn't really configured for long-haul international arrivals...
300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
 
jetlanta
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:13 pm

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 6):
I think that it could happen, but its probably not likely. If CVG-CDG is still producing profits, something that DL is obviously having trouble with, they may not mess with it. Why risk cannibalizing one profitable flight to try a new flight that really doesn't have much local traffic to it?

Except that this isn't the case. CVG-CDG has always been an extremely strong market for Delta, and still is. In fact, that success is part of what encourages them about SLC-CDG.
 
jkudall
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 10):
Another issue seems to be how to handle immigration and all that stuff at SLC... the airport isn't really configured for long-haul international arrivals...

What makes you say that? Because I can think of several airports with much smaller immigration facilities which do fine with "long haul" Int'l arrivals.

I worked inbound Int'l flights and worked in the SLC customs facilities quite often this past summer. They can handle it, trust me.

[Edited 2006-09-11 18:26:04]
 
MaverickM11
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:33 am

Quoting Jkudall (Reply 12):
What makes you say that?

What's funny is that the customs officials are directly at odds with the airport and city officials regarding international arrivals. The latter obviously want more international flights but the former will only staff them if they are during bankers hours Silly. I'm pretty sure SLC lost a couple Mexico flights because the customs morons wouldn't staff them after hours.
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YULWinterSkies
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:13 am

Quoting FlightShadow (Reply 2):
Although it is great news, from a spotter's perspective - we already get Delta 767s. How about an AF A340?

Same from a Y flyer perspective! And I don't think the J flyers will disagree either!

DL 763 are J/Y 36/178 and AF 332 40/182, so both could well happen. The 340 is 42/228 or 30/259, so that looks like much more seats to fill. Although this might work in the summer when so many Europeans tourists come to the Western States.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4):
Could a 343 get out of SLC in the summer? It's a serious question; they routinely take 8000 feet plus in CVG when its hot, and there's no elevation problem there.

Here we are! That sounds again like A340 bashing. IB sends 343s to MEX (much higher than SLC), and they fly back to MAD (a longer route of course). SLC is only ~ 1200 m/4000 ft high btw. Or LA and IB on SCL-MAD (both places can be hot and are not at sea level...)
When I doubt... go running!
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:14 am

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 10):
Another issue seems to be how to handle immigration and all that stuff at SLC... the airport isn't really configured for long-haul international arrivals...

They can make some modifications to the E concourse very readily and easily. They have done it repeatedly over the last few years as DL has turned it into the largest CRJ base in North America sarcastic !

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 10):
strong point, as, from what the newspapers report in SLC, DL wants to start that route only if they get subsidized... and I can't really imagine the flight is going to be operated by Air France on behalf of Delta... might be they are actually talking about two routes? LGW operated by DL and CDG by AF?

More than likely CDG will be a DL operated flight code-shared with AF. Keep in mind AF does code-share a number of SLC flights already with DL. LGW is the likely second Europe destination SLC will be linked up with, and possibly FRA eventually if the slot limitations there don't put a stop to it first.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4):
Could a 343 get out of SLC in the summer? It's a serious question; they routinely take 8000 feet plus in CVG when its hot, and there's no elevation problem there.

As I've made clear in other threads the biggest physical facility issue SLC faces to get such a flight is it will be VERY difficult to get a fully laden 763ER off of one of SLC's two 12,000' runways at the hottest summer temperatures when it can often reach 100 degrees F (40 C) or greater. Just making a hip-shot estimate, it would take at least 14,000' of runway at the elevation of SLC (@4225') to get a 763ER off without any weight restrictions. Until they extend runway 34R-16L northward across 22nd North Street, DL might be pulling cargo off this flight more often than not, and then it might not be the money maker they think it can be.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
pgtravel
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:19 am

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 1):
Anyway, I have long, felt that perhaps there was a market for either CDG or LGW. However, since Bermuda II is a factor LGW seems like a very, very longshot. So CDG would be the next logical choice

I would think that CDG would be by far their first choice. With the AF codeshare, you have tremendous feed opportunities on both ends of the flight. That might just push it over the top. With the success of flights between CDG and other US gateways due the codeshare, I'd think this is the right one to try.
 
jkudall
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 15):
They can make some modifications to the E concourse very readily and easily. They have done it repeatedly over the last few years as DL has turned it into the largest CRJ base in North America

Just to make clear, the E concourse is completely separate from the Int'l terminal. They may be attached together, but they are not connected for passengers. E concourse does not accomodate Int'l arrivals, just D concourse does. The gates which are attached to the customs facilities are D2, D4, and D6.

[Edited 2006-09-11 19:41:06]
 
LambertMan
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:41 am

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 11):
Except that this isn't the case. CVG-CDG has always been an extremely strong market for Delta, and still is. In fact, that success is part of what encourages them about SLC-CDG.

I wasn't disputing that CVG-CDG did well, I simply said that they may hurt it by starting SLC. Its obvious that Cincinnati/Salt Lake couldn't support those flights on their own, so its going to take feed, feed that DL relies on to fill the CVG-CDG flight.
 
SESGDL
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:43 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 15):
As I've made clear in other threads the biggest physical facility issue SLC faces to get such a flight is it will be VERY difficult to get a fully laden 763ER off of one of SLC's two 12,000' runways at the hottest summer temperatures when it can often reach 100 degrees F (40 C) or greater. Just making a hip-shot estimate, it would take at least 14,000' of runway at the elevation of SLC (@4225') to get a 763ER off without any weight restrictions. Until they extend runway 34R-16L northward across 22nd North Street, DL might be pulling cargo off this flight more often than not, and then it might not be the money maker they think it can be.

I've said this before, the 767-300ER shouldn't have many weight issues getting off of the 12,000' runway at SLC. UA ran DEN-HNL with 767s before DEN had its 16,000 foot runway, and DEN is a good 1,000 feet higher than SLC is. Yes, if it's close to 100 degrees then there may be a fuel stop, but this is even the case at airports that aren't high. DL shouldn't have a problem getting off the runway at SLC with a 767-300ER.

Jeremy
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:44 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
I'm pretty sure SLC lost a couple Mexico flights because the customs morons wouldn't staff them after hours.

Sad, but true. Cost SLC their AeroMexico flights to MEX and HMO. IIRC, both (non-daily) flights arrived late in the evening for a RON, so that they'd have an ideal arrival time in Mexico. AM tried to operate daytime flights on both routes, and both failed, because as such they were less than ideal timed for departures and arrivals in Mexico.
 
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Stitch
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:49 am

I believe DL has increased their frequency between SEA and SLC and AS is rumored to be considering their own SEA-SLC service. As AS codeshares/partners with both DL and AF, that could be another source of passengers, feeding to and from AS' strong SEA hub.
 
haggis79
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:50 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 19):
UA ran DEN-HNL with 767s before DEN had its 16,000 foot runway, and DEN is a good 1,000 feet higher than SLC is.

According to the Great Circle Mapper:

DEN-HNL: 3365 mi
SLC-CDG: 5080 mi
300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
 
Cubsrule
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 19):
I've said this before, the 767-300ER shouldn't have many weight issues getting off of the 12,000' runway at SLC

How do the 343 and 763ER compare in terms of runway performance? Just from experience, it seems to me like the 343 is more of a runway hog, but that may just be an illusion due to it not climbing as fast. For the record, I'm not bashing the 343 (I love flying them), just trying to get a straight answer as to whether it can do the route. Is terrain an issue around SLC?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
SESGDL
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
How do the 343 and 763ER compare in terms of runway performance? Just from experience, it seems to me like the 343 is more of a runway hog, but that may just be an illusion due to it not climbing as fast. For the record, I'm not bashing the 343 (I love flying them), just trying to get a straight answer as to whether it can do the route. Is terrain an issue around SLC?

The A343 has much worse runway performance than the 767-300ER. And no, there is no terrain issue around SLC. If an A340 could get off the runway it wouldn't need to clear mountains or anything like that.

Jeremy
 
FlightShadow
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting Jkudall (Reply 17):

Just to make clear, the E concourse is completely separate from the Int'l terminal. They may be attached together, but they are not connected for passengers. E concourse does not accomodate Int'l arrivals, just D concourse does. The gates which are attached to the customs facilities are D2, D4, and D6.

Confused - DL Connection sends CRJ-200s to Canada (and Mexico?) many times daily, and these go to the E concourse, do they not?

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
Is terrain an issue around SLC?

No. Although flanked by mountains both east and west, there is a clear path North and South (same direction as the runways - 34/16LR and 35/17) of SLC for 50 or so miles to the south and about as many, if not more, to the north. If an aircraft can't climb 10,000 feet in 50 miles, then we have a problem...but I think that even the A343 can do that

edit:clarity

[Edited 2006-09-11 22:26:57]
"When the tide goes out, you can tell who was skinnydipping."
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:30 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
Is terrain an issue around SLC?

Both 12,000' runways are north/south oriented as is a third 10,000' runway along the east side by the ANG facility and Executive terminal. Both the Wasatch Range and Oquirah Mountains are also north/south oriented. Departing northbound it is a strait shot out over the Great Salt Lake, while departing southbound it is a strait shot out over West Valley City (the Salt Lake Valley's "low rent" district). All very flat terrain for significant distances.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
How do the 343 and 763ER compare in terms of runway performance? Just from experience, it seems to me like the 343 is more of a runway hog, but that may just be an illusion due to it not climbing as fast. For the record, I'm not bashing the 343 (I love flying them), just trying to get a straight answer as to whether it can do the route. Is terrain an issue around SLC?

The only Airbus a/c that would have issues in SLC potentially is the big A380 whale-jet. A340s and Boeing 777s can handle SLC normally anytime, and on many instances a 744 has made a diversionary landing here. My only point is that during the hottest time of the year from late June to mid August DL would have to likely pull cargo off the a/c to get it off the runway with all the PAX, luggage and fuel needed to make CDG.

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 22):
DEN-HNL: 3365 mi

SLC to Western Europe is at least 1500 miles further than Denver to Hawaii requiring significantly more pounds of fuel to make the journey. It is amazing how you point out how far Hawaii is from the Mountain Time Zone/Central Rockies urban areas however, there are points in the Caribbean that are actually closer.  eyepopping 
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
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Stitch
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting FlightShadow (Reply 25):
Confused - DL Connection sends CRJ-200s to Canada (and Mexico?) many times daily, and these go to the E concourse, do they not?

A departure from the E concourse to an international destination would not matter, as Customs & Immigration are not involved (other then a passport/visa check).

I am guessing that international arrivals on CRJ-200s use the D Concourse so passengers can undergo C&I procedures.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 26):
My only point is that during the hottest time of the year from late June to mid August DL would have to likely pull cargo off the a/c to get it off the runway with all the PAX, luggage and fuel needed to make CDG.

Got that... just trying to figure out if AF would have the same problem with a 343.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
COERJ145
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 27):
I am guessing that international arrivals on CRJ-200s use the D Concourse so passengers can undergo C&I procedures.

I think most US bound flights from canada use customs/immigration pre-clearence. I did this in YYC when I was headed home to BOS(via ORD) on AA.
 
goldorak
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:07 am

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 6):
CVG's CDG flight would definitely take a huge hit, maybe a knockout blow, as its overall role in the network has changed as JFK has already replaced CVG as their secondary European gateway

Agreed. But 2 questions :
- will SLC be a year-round route or seasonal (summer) ? To me, probably the 2nd option. I can't see this route works in winter
- if it's a summer route, and as CVG will be probably be hurt by this new route, then don't you think CDG-CVG could be reduced to 1 daily flight (instead of 2 in summer) and the deleted one replaced by the CDG-SLC route ?
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:14 am

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 29):
I think most US bound flights from Canada use customs/immigration pre-clearence. I did this in YYC when I was headed home to BOS(via ORD) on AA.

Canada is a very different procedure than to Mexico or any other country at SLC and pretty much any other U.S. airport.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:19 am

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 6):
CVG's CDG flight would definitely take a huge hit, maybe a knockout blow, as its overall role in the network has changed as JFK has already replaced CVG as their secondary European gateway.

I've been thinking about this, and I'm not sure you're right. There are still more connecting possibilities at CVG than at JFK. JFK is a much more O&D-centered operation than is CVG, and most domestic stations have more capacity to CVG than to JFK. CVG is still the preferred place for connections, IMHO.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
phollingsworth
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:19 am

The B767-300ER maxes out just under 400klbs on an 86°F day at 4000 ft, independent of runway length (brake energy and tire speed limits). The 12,000 ft balanced field length is at around 395 klbs. The great circle distance between SLC and CDG is 4414nm. Since the flight from SLC to CDG is eastbound the effective range is lower. Using the 4414 nm and 391klb takeoff weight the 767-300ER is capable of carrying ~265 klbs of OEW and payload. The info I have suggest that DLs 763ERs have an OEW ~200 klbs. This would allow for ~65 klbs of payload or around 12 klbs of cargo with a full pax load.
 
LambertMan
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:37 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32):
I've been thinking about this, and I'm not sure you're right. There are still more connecting possibilities at CVG than at JFK. JFK is a much more O&D-centered operation than is CVG, and most domestic stations have more capacity to CVG than to JFK. CVG is still the preferred place for connections, IMHO.

As far as European flights and destinations, JFK far outnumbers CVG in both categories. Up until just recently, DL has always referred to JFK as a European gateway, now that its a hub that term has changed. Whether these flights are filled with primarily connecting passengers or local passengers is irrelevant, its simply a place where the flights leave from.
 
jkudall
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:24 am

Quoting FlightShadow (Reply 25):
Confused - DL Connection sends CRJ-200s to Canada (and Mexico?) many times daily, and these go to the E concourse, do they not?



Quoting Stitch (Reply 27):
A departure from the E concourse to an international destination would not matter, as Customs & Immigration are not involved (other then a passport/visa check).

I am guessing that international arrivals on CRJ-200s use the D Concourse so passengers can undergo C&I procedures.

Yes, inbound RJ's needing to undergo Immigration procedures park at D concourse. Currently the only Canadian city served from SLC needing immigration in SLC is YYJ (served seasonally). SJD, when operated with CR7's, also parks at the D gates for immigration.

YYC, YVR, YEG, and YYZ all arrive at normal domestic gates.
 
jfk777
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:35 am

Why is it taking until now, 18 years after Delta bought Western airlines. This should have happen ten years ago.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 30):
- will SLC be a year-round route or seasonal (summer) ? To me, probably the 2nd option. I can't see this route works in winter

Well, as the license plate says : "Utah, greatest snow on Earth". Should be a reason for people to come to SLC during winter months!
However the problem is that France is not underserved by great snow. And no need of a DL 763 or AF 343 for 10 hours. A 5 hours TGV ride will do the job perfectly!
I guess that was your point, but this is just to make it clearer...
When I doubt... go running!
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:06 am

DL does not want to start any more seasonal routes. If SLCCDG starts, and it likely will, it will be for year round service. Part of the attraction of SLC is its year round traffic flows. DL's buildout of SLC is doing very well and this route would only help.

CVG could take a hit but remember DL is flying it w/ a 777 which can't continue to be used for the route given DL's plan to use that plane for Asia. CVGCDG could get a 764 but it would be easier to just downgrade to a 763 like the rest of the CVG int'l flights and support the new SLC-CDG route.

The possibility can't be ruled out that AF was in SLC because SLC was trying to play DL against AF in seeing who would operate the route for less subsidy. Possible but you have to also remember that DL and its connection carriers would provide the feed into SLC to support the flight which can't exist w/o feed on both ends. Alliances only work by mutual agreement. DL wants the SLCCDG route and it is doubtful they would participate with AF to make it work. Because DL and AF have antitrust immunity they can support each other in route development. AF was undoubtedly happy to see DL pull out of the CDG-India market (AF is beginning its own CDGMAA service plus losing capacity to BOM) so DL might be telling AF this is AF's opportunity to support DL. DL's unit costs are almost half of DL's so DL is the clear preference to develop new routes to the USA.

DL's CVG and PDX int'l routes started w/ Federal inspection facilities that were barely large enough to handle one 767 at a time. If it becomes apparent that Homeland Security's actions are hurting the flight, there will be huge pressure for them to staff as necessary to make the flight work. This flight will mean alot to at least a half dozen states and dozens more cities that would otherwise have double connect service to Paris.

SLC will be more than happy to support this route so it will undoubtedly happen. All DL wants is some assurance that if the flight is a flop someone will be there to soften DL's blow and someone else to help market it to make it successful. If it works, there could well be more. No one would have imagined that CVG would and has supported five transatlantic flights per day during the summer and three year round for several years now.
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:12 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 36):
Why is it taking until now, 18 years after Delta bought Western airlines

It'll be 20 next week. Anywho...DL at the time of the merger thought that to stay competitive in a deregulated industry and expand from coast to coast, not to mention feed its Pacific gateway in PDX, it needed to merge with a more Western States oriented airline. Their first choice was Jet America, which a bidding war ensued with Alaska Airlines. AS won, DL bailed out and proceeded with a bid for Western. Western was more of a perfect fit for DL, with the large SLC hub, Alaska/Mexico/Hawaii flights, LAX focus city, somewhat new fleet, and a great workforce. The only problem was the Flight Attendants, as I recall, but they were brought in line by Grinstein, along with the pilots a few years earlier. It was the only merger in the 80s to be REALLY beneficial to both sides.

DL never intended for LAX to be a hub (asper the 1987/1988/1989 Annuals), but more of a focus city.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:14 am

but DL could well be bigger up and down the west coast in a couple years than it has been since right after the WA merger. And of course SLC is much bigger. DL brought widebodies by the dozens to SLC each day.
 
nickofatlanta
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 1:06 am

RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:24 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 38):
No one would have imagined that CVG would and has supported five transatlantic flights per day during the summer and three year round for several years now.

For a while, CVG had more than three year-round transatlantic flights: LGW, CDG, FRA, BRU and ZRH - and even MUC I believe at one point. So, I agree SLC flights could very well be successful - if CDG works, I believe LGW and possibly FRA will be next.
 
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SLCUT2777
Posts: 3476
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:17 am

RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:26 am

Quoting Jkudall (Reply 35):
Yes, inbound RJ's needing to undergo Immigration procedures park at D concourse. Currently the only Canadian city served from SLC needing immigration in SLC is YYJ (served seasonally). SJD, when operated with CR7's, also parks at the D gates for immigration.

YYC, YVR, YEG, and YYZ all arrive at normal domestic gates.

There is talk that YYJ should even go year around at least 3-4x per week, and if that's the case then it to will not need the D concourse. With the rules becoming stricter for passports with Mexico, I'm quite certain even the SJD flight will stay at those three D gates in question. SJD. MZT and PVR are all very popular Mexico flights to/from SLC.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:26 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 40):
DL brought widebodies by the dozens to SLC each day.

Western brought it's DC-10's as well, as did AA, and TW tossed in an L-1011...
 
B4REAL
Posts: 2615
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:53 am

RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:31 am

Quoting Nickofatlanta (Reply 41):
For a while, CVG had more than three year-round transatlantic flights: LGW, CDG, FRA, BRU and ZRH - and even MUC I believe at one point.

Wasn't CVG-BRU operated by Sabena?
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds & @RickVanover on Twitter
 
IADLHR
Posts: 612
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:25 pm

RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:33 am

Another thing, of which i am absolutely clueless is how much traffic the Mormon Church would generate. I know they do missionary work all over the world so that is a factor too. In addition, this would seem to be purely O&D traffic to add to the strong feed @ SLC DL would get.
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:34 am

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 45):
Another thing, of which i am absolutely clueless is how much traffic the Mormon Church would generate. I know they do missionary work all over the world so that is a factor too. In addition, this would seem to be purely O&D traffic to add to the strong feed @ SLC DL would get.

They send missionairies outr almost everyday I think, I dunno, youdhave to aska mormon in the know, as I am neitherin the know, or mormon, BUT, I dont think it would be enough to justify a new flight.
 
YULWinterSkies
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:42 pm

RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:39 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 38):
The possibility can't be ruled out that AF was in SLC because SLC was trying to play DL against AF in seeing who would operate the route for less subsidy. Possible but you have to also remember that DL and its connection carriers would provide the feed into SLC to support the flight which can't exist w/o feed on both ends. Alliances only work by mutual agreement. DL wants the SLCCDG route and it is doubtful they would participate with AF to make it work. Because DL and AF have antitrust immunity they can support each other in route development. AF was undoubtedly happy to see DL pull out of the CDG-India market (AF is beginning its own CDGMAA service plus losing capacity to BOM) so DL might be telling AF this is AF's opportunity to support DL. DL's unit costs are almost half of DL's so DL is the clear preference to develop new routes to the USA.

This is clear that the SLC-CDG flight has much more importance for SLC than it has for CDG. For SLC it means their first and only overseas route, to Europe's #3 gateway and SkyTeam's largest hub. For CDG it means one more US city out of a lot, with connections to new small cities that no one in CDG has ever heard of (well, exaggerating maybe!). That's about it.
In that regard, the airline that has the most influence in SLC's economy appears to be a logical winner over a foreign newcomer airline.
When I doubt... go running!
 
nickofatlanta
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 1:06 am

RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:42 am

Yes, CVG-BRU was operated by SN and even on a 743 at times. I was referring to transatlantic flights operated from CVG - not just by DL. Since SN was a DL partner, the SN flight fits into the argument too that if CVG was able to make transatlantic flights work, SLC has a shot too.
 
B4REAL
Posts: 2615
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:53 am

RE: More SLC-CDG Rumors

Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:33 am

Quoting Nickofatlanta (Reply 48):
Yes, CVG-BRU was operated by SN and even on a 743 at times. I was referring to transatlantic flights operated from CVG - not just by DL.

OK, yes, I remember the 743 distinctly. But, just wanted to clarify it was not DL operating the flight (granted Sabena, Swissair, or Air France would not be @ CVG without DL partnerships at the time - and now for AF).
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds & @RickVanover on Twitter

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