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N231YE
Topic Author
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CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:25 pm

CNN:

Quote:
LEXINGTON, Kentucky (AP) -- Comair was using an outdated chart of Lexington's Blue Grass Airport when one of its planes took off on the wrong runway and crashed in flames, and the airline is now urging pilots to use "extreme caution," according to an e-mail obtained by The Associated Press.

Airline spokeswoman Kate Marx said Monday that the alert was prompted because the airline had an old diagram of Blue Grass Airport.

Comair received a new chart on Friday -- two weeks after the August 27 crash killed 49 of the 50 people on board. The previous chart hadn't been updated since January, despite recent changes to the taxiway route, Marx said.

Late last week, the company updated its dispatch information for Blue Grass Airport cockpit crews with a warning that some runway diagrams don't accurately reflect all the current signs and markings. Comair chief pilot Steve Briner sent an e-mail to pilots Monday pointing out the change.

"Exercise extreme caution during all ground operations," the e-mail stated. "Utilize high threat taxi procedures. If unsure of position or taxi clearance, clarify with (air traffic control)."

A week before the crash, an airport repaving project changed the taxi route leading to the 7,000-foot main runway that Comair Flight 5191 should have used. Instead, the plane turned onto the airport's 3,500-foot runway, a length too short for the regional jet to take off. It crashed in a field less than a mile away and quickly burned.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/12/com.../index.html?section=cnn_topstories

[edit 9/12/06: UBB code]

[Edited 2006-09-12 16:26:53]
 
F9Animal
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:12 am

Very interesting. This has a bit of a twist and a good argument awaiting. The finger pointing shall begin.

BTW- Wonder what hmmmm has to say about this one.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
Goldenshield
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:29 am

The morons in the media continue to spill drivel. This is why NOTAMS exist.

[Edited 2006-09-12 17:30:52]
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:32 am

Can you say AIRLINE LIABILITY??
One Nation Under God
 
N231YE
Topic Author
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 2):
The morons in the media continue to spill drivel. This is why NOTAMS exist.

Agreed.
 
positiverate
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 3):
Can you say AIRLINE LIABILITY??

Can you say JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS?? Seriously...let's not try and figure out the cause of the accident based on leaks and innuendo. There was a whole thread recently based on a family member saying that he thought he heard on the NTSB tapes the pilot calling Toledo Tower, only to find out that he never really heard that. Let's wait until all the facts are out and the investigation is completed.
 
JetBlueGuy2006
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 3):
Can you say AIRLINE LIABILITY

While I agree with you on some level, I think that the FAA or people at LEX should have made sure that updated taxiway and runway diagrams were sent out to all the airlines operating from there to make sure. If it were me, I would rather have sent out something they already had and not assumed, possibly being a contributing factor to the crash of OH 5191.
Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:40 am

I dont think that should make any difference.

What matters is the runway lengths and compass headings, where those up to date?
 
positiverate
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:44 am

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 6):
While I agree with you on some level, I think that the FAA or people at LEX should have made sure that updated taxiway and runway diagrams were sent out to all the airlines operating from there to make sure. If it were me, I would rather have sent out something they already had and not assumed, possibly being a contributing factor to the crash of OH 5191.

Again, this is why they have NOTAMS. They're often changes at airports regarding ops that are only for a day, or a week, that don't warrant new Jepp Charts every time.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:45 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 2):
The morons in the media continue to spill drivel. This is why NOTAMS exist.

Amen... The media's search for the "smoking gun" continues...

In another few days, should some other isolated tidbit of info be released, they'll probably seize on that and go off reporting some new direction...until another tidbit comes up a few weeks after that one...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
mandala499
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:46 am

Well, we can slap outdated charts as a contributary factor... now who supplies those to Comair? Jeppessen?

Liable? Well, revisions are done on a periodic basis... and covered by Notams... now, were the changes available through NOTAMs with the crew involved?

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
modesto2
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:08 am

Most likely, Jeppesen supplies the charts. I know my company just issued a bulletin to pilots regarding LEX and the updated airport diagram in the latest Jeppesen revision - issued last Friday.
 
FrequentFlyKid
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:14 am

I don't mean to be a smartass, but the cause of the accident is pretty clear. The thing that we need not jump to conclusions about is why that plane ended up on the wrong runway.
 
tercer
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:26 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 3):
Can you say AIRLINE LIABILITY??

Say what you will, speculate and such but in the end I am willing to bet the final NTSB report will sight pilot error with some contributing factors. No matter how the media spins this the crew lost situational awareness of their position on the field and took the wrong runway (Remember the runways are marked with signage and very big letters painted on the ends). In CRM (Crew Recourse Management) lessons are taught, for example: if you get interrupted on a check list start over and crews cross checking each other, to put checks in place to avoid mistakes like this one. Complacency in the airlines business is the number one cause of incidents and accidents and in this unfortunate case that is most likely what happened.
It's politically sensitive, but it's going to happen.
 
kellmark
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:40 am

The question really is did they have the current chart for the airport? If they did, it may or may not have had the latest changes, as they were very recent. Any changes that are not on the latest chart should be NOTAMed as noted above.
 
supa7E7
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:52 am

We all know that FAA understaffing caused this accident. The media said so.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
wjcandee
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:10 am

Agree with OPNLGuy. There won't be any smoking guns here. It's pilot error, pure and simple, and the factors that folks are citing as the kind of things that "might have saved them" are the 2x4-between-the-eyes kinds of things that should never have been necessary -- along the lines of a recorded voice in the cockpit stating "Pull BACK on the yoke to rotate".

We don't even know that these guys even *consulted* charts.

They didn't read back their clearance, didn't line up and stop, just rounded the corner and .... wheeeee! ... off we go down a pitch-dark runway that's half as wide as the one we landed on yesterday and a lot bumpier, crossing a proper-width fully-lighted runway, did a normal "rotate" callout just about the time they ran out of runway, and had their wheels in the grass and hit a berm that launched them airborne before realizing that there was no more runway. The usual CRM-training observation after showing the taped reenactment of Eastern 401 settling into the Everglades is, "Look how disengaged these guys were from their primary job of flying the aircraft." I believe that we'll find, when we read the CVR transcript, that this is more like Air Midwest or Pinnacle (embarassing) than ValuJet (by the book). At a minimum, I believe that it will reflect these guys being just glazed.

"High threat" indeed.
 
silentbob
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:31 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 15):
We all know that FAA understaffing caused this accident. The media said so.

While I know you're being sarcastic, understaffing was one reason the accident wasn't prevented. Not exactly the same as causing but it still holds some level of liability.
 
wannabe
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:44 am

I think Wjcandee's post pretty much nailed it. You can get drawn in by the mundane and not see all the little clues that are pointing to a real big issue. This is true in any profession. I once had a technician who worked for me and was changing major power supplies in a large (old) mainframe computer. He had 20+ years of experience. He shut the main circuit breaker on the wall down, and proceeded to disconnect the main power leads from the power supply buss. What he failed to do was to check to see if the breaker was labled properly (it wasn't) and use a volt meter to check if power was still present on the lines (it was...440 Volts at 400 cycles.) He was lucky that it was the screw driver that shorted to ground. It melted a 1/2 thick square shank screwdriver right in half in less then a second, and the flash was bright enough to light up a 2 acre data center. He was lucky he wasn't killed. But the bottom line is that a nervous rookie probably would not have made the mistake, but this guy had gone through 20 years of never having a major accident, and he missed all of the clues. The mundane nearly killed him.
 
richierich
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 7):
I dont think that should make any difference.

What matters is the runway lengths and compass headings, where those up to date?

I totally agree with this.
Having an up-to-date chart would not have prevented this awful tragedy, in my opinion. The pilot was on the wrong runway, even on his outdated chart.

The only thing that will probably come of the outdated chart is just some more bad press for Comair but I don't think anybody can say that this was a contributing factor, much less the cause, of this crash.

Quoting Tercer (Reply 13):
Say what you will, speculate and such but in the end I am willing to bet the final NTSB report will sight pilot error with some contributing factors.

Its all a matter of opinion as none of us will truly know the exact cause of this crash until the final report is issued some time in 2011. (OK, it'll probably be some time next year). I happen to think you are correct though, Tercer. Pilot error with some contributing factors - perhaps there are ways this could have been avoided but ultimately it was the pilot's responsibility to know which runway he was on and how long this runway was. Too bad it wasn't another 100 feet in length because we might not be talking about this right now.
None shall pass!!!!
 
brilondon
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:23 am

Where does CNN get all this crap from? The airlines all have resources at their disposal and if CNN would just check their facts instead of taking one bit of information and screwing it up. They are obivously on a witch hunt for some reason and hell bent on destroying a decent airline.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
adipasqu
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:43 am

Does anyone have a copy or a link to the new APD? The old one is still on the NACO site.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0609/00697AD.PDF

Edit: spelling

[Edited 2006-09-12 23:56:36]
707 712 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 753 762 763 764 772 773 D9S D10 319 320 321 332 M80 M82 M83 M87 M88 M90 SF3 ERJ CRJ
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:49 am

Hmm I read on CNN, even the new airport diagrams does not include the recent modification of the airport... so It does not matter whether comair got the most recent airport diagram or not.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
F9Animal
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:50 am

Sure pilot error is a contributing factor. But, there sure are plenty of interesting facts that are coming up that show more than pilot error. So far, I have seen a few clues come up to aim the findings in different directions.

Whatever the case, these little things that "could" have contributed to the crash are not little things to overlook.

Could reading the wrong outdated chart have lead to the crash?

Could not having 2 controllers have lead to the crash?

Could runway and taxiway markings have lead to the crash?

Could pilot error have lead to the crash?


Sorry mates, but I think I might have had to put a "yes" on all of the above questions.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
adipasqu
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:55 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 22):
Hmm I read on CNN, even the new airport diagrams does not include the recent modification of the airport... so It does not matter whether comair got the most recent airport diagram or not.

I don't think anyone has updated charts with the most recent modifications. If NACO doesn't have it, who would?
707 712 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 753 762 763 764 772 773 D9S D10 319 320 321 332 M80 M82 M83 M87 M88 M90 SF3 ERJ CRJ
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 23):

Everything you do, even the right thing "could have lead" to the accident. But it's not the cause of the accident.

BTW does anybody know what kind of modification took place on the taxiway? Constructions does not always change the fundamentals of the airport lay out does it?

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:07 am

"The morons in the media continue to spill drivel. This is why NOTAMS exist."

Notams exist for taxiway/runway closures. Notams DO NOT exist for a new taxiway layout.

I don't know if LEX has a new layout, but if it does, it wouldn't be covered in a Notam . . . it would be a new chart from Jepp. If Comair didn't have that chart and they were supposed to, that is a HUGE liability.

In an accident investigation, there is usually a direct occurence that leads to the accident. That occurence usually happens due to a chain of events. The chain of events is a series of contributing factors.

This may or may not be a contributing factor. If it is, that's a big problem.

PJ
 
goaliemn
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:08 am

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 10):
Well, we can slap outdated charts as a contributary factor... now who supplies those to Comair? Jeppessen?

The change may have been done in the middle of a chart cycle, so no new chart was available. I'd love to see what NOTAMS had been issued that day. NOTAMS cover changes between cart cycles. It should've been included with his pre-flight package, if any existed.
 
C133
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:31 am

Sorry, but it's the captain's responsibility (with the FO's assistance) to operate the airplane safely and legally. Taking off on the proper runway is basic to this.
Fine: Tax for doing wrong. Tax: Fine for doing well.
 
727forever
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:13 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 2):
The morons in the media continue to spill drivel. This is why NOTAMS exist.

I agree with you that the morons in the media continue to spill drivel, but my agreement stops there.

Local NOTAMs are there to tell you of runway and taxiway closures. They can also tell you if lighting is out of service or if the wind sock got blown away during the last thunderstorm. They do not tell you of new taxiway routes. How would they do this? "When proceding on Alpha taxiway north turn left 23.6 degrees at the third bush on the right instead of the old route which was proceed straight ahead on Alpha veering 23.6 degrees right at the third bush then left 47.2 degrees after passing the ground hog hole with the yellow circle around it." I don't think so.

A complicated change to a taxi route like this is too complicated for a pilot to remember 35 minutes after he read 4-6 pages of Local and FDC notams. I always look at my list of notams but honestly there is just too much in there to remember stuff like that. I rely on my taxi chart to show me the way.

NOS charts come out every 90 days. Jepp charts have a revision cycle of every 14 days. They both do a really good job of publishing changes that they've been made aware of. It is the airport authorities/FAA responsibility to notify them that changes have been made. Since neither Jepp or the NOS charts had the applicable changes on 27 August that would lead me to seriously question the Lexington Blue Grass Airport as to when notification was made of this change.

The investigators are still uncovering many new details here. It is still too early to start laying blame on anyone, including the pilots. We know they made mistakes. The question is why and what lead them to make the mistakes they made. Whatever the case, we are all going to learn a great deal from this accident investigation and I'm certain that the litigation trail will be as long as the one Lewis and Clark set out on so many years ago. Unfortunate.

727forever
727forever
 
ThirtyEcho
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:26 am

Did the crew have an outdated compass? You know, one that read 40 degrees off?

Didn't they get the NOTAM that all compasses not swung since 250,000 BC should be reswung before the next flight?

Sorry folks, the responsibility for this one rests forward of the cockpit door and nowhere else.

And I don't care how tired the tower staffer was of if he was down the street drunk in a bar; controllers never push the throttles to takeoff power.
 
ReidYYZ
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:33 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 5):
Seriously...let's not try and figure out the cause of the accident based on leaks and innuendo.

That is the wrong attitude. When it comes to an accident/incident leaks, wrong information, guesswork and hypotheses are the foundation of this forum. How else would one get 79 replies to a thread about an accident, when the rubble is still moving to its' final resting place?

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 5):
Let's wait until all the facts are out and the investigation is completed.


Correct! The last place I go to for info about an accident/incident is the news, the second last place is here.
 
corey07850
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:21 am

Just another "link in the chain" of causes for the crash... This accident will be studied by countless Human Factors and Aviation Safety classes... I'd venture a guess and say that there are so many aspects to this crash, that someone will write a dissertation on it
 
2H4
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:48 am




Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 30):
Sorry folks, the responsibility for this one rests forward of the cockpit door and nowhere else.

ThirtyEcho....nobody's arguing that the flight crew didn't make mistakes. As 727forever very clearly noted, we know they made mistakes. The question is why and what what led them to make the mistakes they made.

Please read very carefully: Searching for reasons why the flight crew screwed up is not the same as shifting the blame elsewhere.

It's absolutely beyond me how so many people can have such trouble grasping this.




2H4


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usnseallt82
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:54 am

Quoting N231YE (Thread starter):
CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

People will be going around and around about this event for quite some time.

The fact is, several people messed up. Just like every accident, it is a chain of events that lead to it. If they had the wrong chart, that's on them. The overworked ATC guy is the FAA's fault. The system of redundancy that is usually there when these things overlap failed.
Crye me a river
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:27 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 34):
The overworked ATC guy is the FAA's fault. The system of redundancy that is usually there when these things overlap failed.

I thought ATC guy does not guide airplane to its correct runway.. It is true that one of the ATC guy "might have" noticed the plane was lining up at the wrong runway, but no guarantee

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
usnseallt82
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:36 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 35):
I thought ATC guy does not guide airplane to its correct runway..

Right, he doesn't guide it...but his extra set of eyes over the situation is where the redundancy comes into play. The fact that this guy was overworked could have prevented him from looking out to see a situation developing.

This is why I said several things went wrong. The ultimate responsibility was the pilot's, but it seems from the preliminary findings that other events contributed to the lack of situational awareness.
Crye me a river
 
L-188
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:47 am

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 14):
The question really is did they have the current chart for the airport? If they did, it may or may not have had the latest changes, as they were very recent. Any changes that are not on the latest chart should be NOTAMed as noted above.

They did have a current chart, the revision wasn't out yet.

Quoting 727forever (Reply 29):
NOS charts come out every 90 days. Jepp charts have a revision cycle of every 14 days. They both do a really good job of publishing changes that they've been made aware of. It is the airport authorities/FAA responsibility to notify them that changes have been made. Since neither Jepp or the NOS charts had the applicable changes on 27 August that would lead me to seriously question the Lexington Blue Grass Airport as to when notification was made of this change.

Thanks for the timing, I wasn't sure when the jeps came out. As mentioned there are reasons why NOTAMS exist.

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 30):
Did the crew have an outdated compass? You know, one that read 40 degrees off?

They must have used that same one China Air had a few years back up here when they had an A-340 take off 90 off.

That is one of the most basic checks that a crew can do.

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 20):
Where does CNN get all this crap from?

I think they hired Scary Mary as a consultant

Quoting Wannabe (Reply 18):
The mundane nearly killed him.

There is a lesson there people.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
skywatch
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:58 am

In my opinion, the main blame unfortunately rests upon the pilots. No matter what ATC did, or what the charts said, Runway 22 still points 220* and Runway 26 still points 260*. With both people in the cockpit failing to verify the runway by looking at the heading indicator, not much else can be said. A terrible accident that could have been avoided with just one glance at the controls.....

---Skywatch
------Forever Watchin' The Sky------
 
N231YE
Topic Author
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:22 pm

Quoting Corey07850 (Reply 32):
Just another "link in the chain" of causes for the crash...

That seems to be the best way to sum it all up. The cause of the crash is not purely the one person. It seems to be a tragic case of "caught in the wrong place at the wrong time." Somehow by a minute chance of probability, several people screwed up, and the safety precautions and measures failed to prevent it.

To be more in depth, the PIC, as the final say and control over the safety and lives of those on board and on the ground, should have known to taxi to the right runway, and ultimately takeoff from it. The other crew member, should have alerted him about the improper runway (preliminary reports say that the crew did mention the lack of runway lights.) The ATC should have stopped the aircraft from taking off. But the FAA should have better-staffed LEX, to reduce the workload off the ATC, so he could have maintained visual with flight 191 during its departure. And now, as we are finding out, the crew should have had an up-to-date diagram of the airport, which the airline failed to do so. In the coming weeks, and months, who knows what may come? The final report may shed the blame over many people, and this may turn into a big mess, if it is not already.

But one sad truth is clear: in order for safety changes to come, incidents, often tragic, must occur to make one realize the vulnerabilities that exist. (ie...creation of the FAA, United Flight 232, 9/11, etc...)
 
ThirtyEcho
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:41 pm

""ThirtyEcho....nobody's arguing that the flight crew didn't make mistakes. As 727forever very clearly noted, we know they made mistakes. The question is why and what what led them to make the mistakes they made."

Why? The same mistakes as always: complacency, lack of crew training, lack of crosschecks, lack of healthy suspicion, routine-itis, every word that Ernie Gann ever wrote.

Remember that two people had to agree on committing this atrocity of airmanship.

Thank God that my instrument instructor was a Burma Hump pilot.
 
2H4
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RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:55 pm




Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 40):
Why? The same mistakes as always: complacency, lack of crew training, lack of crosschecks, lack of healthy suspicion, routine-itis, every word that Ernie Gann ever wrote.

So are you actually of the opinion that the investigation should stop there? Do you truly believe that there is no new knowledge to be gained from further investigation of the contributing factors?

If so, I'm glad your logic hasn't prevailed at the NTSB over the past few decades.

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 40):
Thank God that my instrument instructor was a Burma Hump pilot.

I'm sure your instrument instructor was good, but that doesn't make you immune to the reality that is human factors.

Was an atrocity of airmanship commited? It appears so. Are such atrocities limited to only the very worst pilots out there? Absolutely not.

Given a certain set of conditions and chain of events, we all have the potential to commit ridiculously simple mistakes that evolve into atrocities.

Recognizing this is, in my opinion, the first step to becoming a safer and more disciplined pilot.




2H4


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alaska737
Posts: 867
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:19 am

RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:02 pm

correct me if i am wrong, but i seem to recall a DC-8 that crashed in Brussels or somewhere over there, they took off on a taxiway and had an old map. seems like they would have learned from that.
 
SkyexRamper
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:17 am

RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:10 pm

OK OK, so let's just all revert the finger pointing back to the captain, and why not. The Pilot in Command (PIC) aka Captain in airline terms. However in FAA terms, if both pilots are both qualified to operate the aircraft, then the pilot in the left seat is PIC. So we end up back at the Captain. The PIC, or Captain in this situation, is responsible for all aspects pertaining to a given flight. Which means every detail from the biggest to the smallest, the PIC is responsible for. Don't like that answer, then blame the FAA or read it yourself. (Pick up any FAR/AIM)

And also in jet aircraft and airlines the Captain is the only one taxiing the aircraft.

Yes, I'm sure Comair is using Jepp Charts too and if they didn't get copies until then well that's a problem. I've never really looked hard at Jepp Charts, but I'm sure they have the expiration date on every page like NOS (Gov printed)i did charts do But then again so is a air traffic controller that is not following the aircraft with his own eyes. That would have caught and prevented this horrible nightmare. Flame me all you want, but everything above are valid points.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
wjcandee
Posts: 9693
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:05 pm

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 40):
Why? The same mistakes as always: complacency, lack of crew training, lack of crosschecks, lack of healthy suspicion, routine-itis, every word that Ernie Gann ever wrote.

Bravo. In short, lack of airmanship.

Quoting N231YE (Reply 39):
But the FAA should have better-staffed LEX, to reduce the workload off the ATC, so he could have maintained visual with flight 191 during its departure

Had that even remotely been his job, he would have done so and could have done so. He was not overworked by any stretch of the imagination. There was NO traffic in the area at the time. Nobody arriving. Nobody else departing. The previous departures were several minutes off and already talking to departure control. The guy had various administrative tasks to do, but absolutely nothing pressing to do. He turned to the next task because his JOB was to clear the aircraft for takeoff on the correct runway, which he did. It was not his job to watch them and make sure that they went to the correct runway. In his 17 years in that tower, over thousands of departures, had it been his job this likely would have been the only time he saw this happen. And the "mighta/coulda" stuff really isn't relevant here as to the controller. There was so much more "mighta/coulda" stuff going on that pertained to the actual flight deck crew, so very many signs that they ignored that this wasn't the right runway.

If there's a criticism of the controller to be had, it is that he accepted a "roger" as a readback on the takeoff clearance. He could have demanded a proper readback, but didn't. MAYBE that would have pulled their heads out of their butts, although I think it unlikely. Remember, these guys never lined up and stopped; the captain turned the corner, said "Your aircraft" and the f/o hit the gas. The NTSB has expressly said that they never stopped rolling from the time they left the gate until rotation. If there's a legitimate human factors issue in all of this discussion, it's a rolling transfer of control. Quite possibly the f/o was doing other things while the captain was taxiing, and wasn't paying attention as to what runway the cap lined him up on. That, in my view, is a legitimate CRM/Human Factors issue: should rolling departures be permitted when they involve a transfer of control? Should the f/o, upon taking control, be required to go through some minimal challenge/response protocol to ensure that certain things are proper? Probably not, actually, as a proper predeparture briefing should have covered all those things already. The rest of this stuff is just insignificant. Hell, they ignored the runway signs with the big numbers on them, the runway lights, the numbers painted on the runway, the surface of the runway, the width of the runway, the nature of the runway lighting or absence thereof, the fact that they CROSSED a properly-lit runway on departure, while knowing that LEX has only one runway that they could use, and on and on. It's exactly what Thirty-Echo says, and very little more.

I still wonder what that poor Airtran f/o who lived in LEX, sitting in the back because he wasn't jumpseat-qualified on Comair, thought during those few seconds that he had to realize that these boneheads were departing on the wrong runway.
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1324
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:33 pm

Jepp charts do not expire until superceeded by a revised chart. My airline got the new LEX diagram on the last revision dated 9/8.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6597
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:26 pm

If accident investigations are just to see who was responsible for the crash, then there would not be anymore pilots... as in the end, it's always the captain who takes the can on-non tech incidents/accidents. So, let's forget about all the small things called contributory factors resulting to recommendations which keeps the air safe?

We know the pilots made the fatal error, but, we'd like to know WHY the error was made so as to see what contributory factors can be prevented so we won't a REPEAT of this accident.

I much prefer Wjcandee's way of "laying blame" (if one may put that way) on the pilots...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
deltadc9
Posts: 2811
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:00 pm

RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:46 pm

Quoting Tercer (Reply 13):
(Remember the runways are marked with signage and very big letters painted on the ends).

The 7000 foot runway yes, but from where the plane entered the short runway, those big numbers on the pavement were behind him, which IMHO should have made them think twice and check the compass.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 15):
We all know that FAA understaffing caused this accident. The media said so.



Quoting Silentbob (Reply 17):
While I know you're being sarcastic, understaffing was one reason the accident wasn't prevented. Not exactly the same as causing but it still holds some level of liability.

I have a problem with that theory. There were what, 3 planes active at the time, even if there were two, there still would be one plane with no eyes on it.

This whole one controller per plane thing has me baffled. How does O'hare do it?

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 23):
Sorry mates, but I think I might have had to put a "yes" on all of the above questions.



Yep. Show me one air crash with just one factor to blame.

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 30):
Sorry folks, the responsibility for this one rests forward of the cockpit door and nowhere else.

See above.

Quoting Skywatch (Reply 38):
A terrible accident that could have been avoided with just one glance at the controls.....

I would think that checking the compass would be SOP, is it not?
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
N231YE
Topic Author
Posts: 2620
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:24 am

RE: CNN: Comair Had Old Diagram Of Klex

Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:13 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 44):
Had that even remotely been his job, he would have done so and could have done so. He was not overworked by any stretch of the imagination. There was NO traffic in the area at the time. Nobody arriving. Nobody else departing.

By all rights, he was overworked. Remember the FAA placed a regulation last last year requiring a minimum of 2 controllers in any tower, in any given time. The FAA admitted it failed on its own rules. So maybe he did this fine for the past 17 years...but, for a safety measure, the FAA put into place the new regulation. And somehow, this measure was failed upon.

Again, there is NO direct finger of blame...the flight crew takes the majority of it, but several other people screwed up, people who could have prevented this.

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