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christao17
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:30 pm

Quoting MSY-MSP" class=quote target=_blank>MSY-MSP (Reply 33):
So the choice is a chance at an E+ seat on UA or a gaurenteed E seat on any other domestic airline.

MSY-MSP - very well thought-out post. People are going a little overboard here in their responses to this news. If I'm reading the OP right, all that UA is doing is restricting the ability to pre-assign Y+ seats to limited groups: Not saying that +G won't be able to sit in Y+ come the day of flight; Not saying that Y/B fares won't be able to sit in Y+ come the day of flight; just limited pre-assigning of Y+ seats.

Sounds like a pretty reasonable decision to me. *G still gets a number of perks when flying UA or another *A carrier besides their own, not the least of which is miles towards their status, pre-boarding, and lounge access on international flights.

Considering that last Christmas as a UA 1K I was stuck in a middle seat in a windowless row on a SFO-HKG flight aboard SQ with its 32" pitch, I'm not sure that that is any worse than UA telling other *G members that they'll have to wait to request Y+ seating until the day of the flight.
More than a dozen years flying in and around Asia...
 
johnclipper
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:03 pm

I just tried booking a flight on UA (I am a Premier Exec) and was allowed to book my seats in E+. with no problem. The "Premium Seat" disclaimer pops up with every green seat I request, but just hit "OK" and it gives it to you.
"Flown every aircraft since the Wright Flyer" (guys, if you take this literally, then you need to get a life...)
 
N1120A
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:04 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 49):
Yes, absolutely. Get what you pay for. Doing otherwise just discourages people from paying for the higher fares.

You just don't get it, do you? Taking a hit in revenue is sometimes the best way to make money in the long term. Why do you think supermarkets offer loyalty cards or car makers offer rebates on popular, as opposed to slow selling, models?
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BNE
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:31 pm

That is no good; I enjoyed the flight I had in E+; very nice. Oh well back to the cheapest airfare wins of selecting flights for future travel inside the USA.
Why fly non stop when you can connect
 
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fbgdavidson
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:49 pm

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 51):
I just tried booking a flight on UA (I am a Premier Exec) and was allowed to book my seats in E+. with no problem.

Read the thread  Wink UA elites are unaffected, it is non-UA *Gs and Y/B fare paying passengers who can't pre-assign E+.

Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 43):
It dilutes the value of the premium seats by just putting them in for no cost, even for Golds & Gold Elites (of which there are many these days).

There are? Whilst the elite ranks may come out in force on some days you'd be surprised by how few people who are members in FFPs are elite members. As a regular posters on the BA Exec Club forum on Flyertalk the numbers of members of the EC comes up quite frequently and it was determined that of the 3million members, less than 300,000 were Silver status and around 60,000 were Gold. That makes up 10% and 2% of the EC population. Presuming a similar ranking is linked with UA Mileage Plus, and taking into account that not all people who fly are members of FFPs whilst some are other *Gs, *Ss etc you'll notice the proportion of elite fliers is smaller than the proportion of seats that make up E+ in the Y cabin.

Frankly I don't think it makes much difference to *A elites. We'll probably just end up with a seat assigned at check-in instead of getting it pre-assigned. Makes sense for UA to keep the privilege for their top elites first.





Quoting Vermeer (Reply 40):
To use your words there is a"disproportionate" amount of UA *G members ( shall we rember that their threshold to be gold is lower than for other carriers?) and they all flock to the other memebers' lounges. This is a privilege to which they are entlitled and savily they choosethe better lounges ( not theirs clearly...)

Although if UA is anything like AA in OW the UA *Gs won't get access to other *A lounges when flying domestically based on their status alone.

BA don't allow access to their lounges for AA EXPs or AA PLTs when flying domestically, and AA have a similar paid membership for lounges much like UA and pretty much all other US carriers.

To be honest I doubt the situation you are talking about happens all that much, there can't be many places outside the US where an LH lounge and a UA RCC are in the same terminal with easy access. Even so the majority of LH Senator and FTL lounges are pretty rubbish, not much better than UA RCCs. Only the HON and First Class lounges are any good and UA*Gs can't access them by virtue of status anyway.
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N1120A
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:05 pm

Quoting Fbgdavidson (Reply 54):
As a regular posters on the BA Exec Club forum on Flyertalk the numbers of members of the EC comes up quite frequently and it was determined that of the 3million members, less than 300,000 were Silver status and around 60,000 were Gold. That makes up 10% and 2% of the EC population. Presuming a similar ranking is linked with UA Mileage Plus, and taking into account that not all people who fly are members of FFPs whilst some are other *Gs, *Ss etc you'll notice the proportion of elite fliers is smaller than the proportion of seats that make up E+ in the Y cabin.

See, I think you would be wrong there. Earning status in EC is a much more expensive endeavour than in MP.

Quoting Fbgdavidson (Reply 54):
there can't be many places outside the US where an LH lounge and a UA RCC are in the same terminal with easy access.

Ever been to FRA?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
UAL4ever
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:31 pm

WHile I feel sympathy for those affected by this move as a Premier Exec. on UA I can't help but agree with their decision. When I fly on Air Canada or Lufthansa as I do frequently which both have no premier zone, they will not even allow me to sit in the forward area of the economy class cabin. Last month I flew LH from FRA-TLV (UA codeshare) on a 747 and was seated in row 49 which is about 7-8 rows from the back of the plane. I called Lufthansa to complain and tod them I was star alliance gold and they couldn't have cared less. They said that the forward area was reserved for Lufthansa frequent flyers.

WHy should UA allow star alliance gold/silver have access to E+ when its partners won't evan allow UA *G to sit in the front of an economy cabin which doesnt even have any more room?
 
zvezda
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:56 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 52):
You just don't get it, do you?

I get it that SQ are more profitable than UA. Both reward loyalty, but SQ also reward those who pay full fare.
 
SNATH
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:26 pm

Quoting UAL4ever (Reply 56):
They said that the forward area was reserved for Lufthansa frequent flyers.

I'm also *A Gold and fly regularly on LH long-haul. I very regularly get a pre-assigned seat in the forward section of th planes (only last Sunday I was in the small forward "mini cabin" on a A340). It doesn't always work, but it works most of the time.

Tony
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koruman
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:42 pm

I'm an Air NZ Gold Elite (higher than Gold) who probably flies Business Class to the USA once each year, and flies about four to five flights there. If there was a Star Alliance First Class North America pass I would fly those flights in domestic First Class, but there isn't, so I have to buy the Star Economy pass and hope to be upgraded to UA's Economy Plus. I pick UA over US flights on the Star North America Airpass specificially in the hope of getting Economy Plus. (It's not worthwhile to buy First Class domestic flights, it adds around 50% to my Business Class international airfare).

It's not worth me buying an E+ 1 year deal from UA, because all my flights are within 14 days of each other.

It is now dawning on me that it is pretty pointless to do what I've been doing: from now on I should look at booking US Air domestic First Class, and accessing their lounges via my Star Alliance Gold status. Or even Continental or Delta, with my Priority Pass to get into their lounges.

It's frustrating because I obtain my Air NZ Gold Elite status by buying roughly $20,000 of Business Class travel each year, and the Star Alliance worked well by allowing that status to be reciprocated when outside my narrow geographic zone. Some people on this site are saying "well Air NZ doesn't upgrade UA Golds to Air NZ's Premium Economy" but they miss the point that they don't upgrade their own Golds either - Premium Economy on Air NZ is a separate class, with 40 inch pitch, champagne, AVOD etc.

But if my status isn't really reciprocated on United, I guess it's time to look elsewhere.
 
potomac
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:16 pm

READ THIS:

Quoting Christao17 (Reply 50):
MSY-MSP - very well thought-out post. People are going a little overboard here in their responses to this news. If I'm reading the OP right, all that UA is doing is restricting the ability to pre-assign Y+ seats to limited groups: Not saying that +G won't be able to sit in Y+ come the day of flight; Not saying that Y/B fares won't be able to sit in Y+ come the day of flight; just limited pre-assigning of Y+ seats.

Again, in the absence of there being an official announcement from United and any confirmed specifics included on this thread, this is the safest assumption to make. There's nothing that indicates Star Gold/Silver or non-elite full fare coach won't EVER sit in E+, just that they won't get confirmed, preassigned E+ seats. You could easily check-in and be dropped right in there on a space-available basis. And if that availability is driven by the number of E+ seats remaining after they've been pre-assigned to UA elites, then that's a reasonable hierachy to me.
 
sshank
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:21 am

Unless you are a midget the only thing that's premium on a plane is space and by that account E+ is indeed "premium" economy. While it is not in the same league as WH+ for example, the extra fare you pay is not in that league either (a very modest $299 gets even a non elite year long access to E+) and I must say I am fully with UA on this one. As a UA 1K do not get anything on other star carriers (except LH which allows the use of SWUs on a stand- by basis) and do not feel we should be giving E+ away like candy to all and sundry.

Quoting ManchesterMAN (Reply 3):
Comparing premium economy on the likes of BD with united E+ is like comparing apples and pears. UA E+ is not a seperate cabin and does not have any seperate booking classes associated, it is just a few seats with some extra leg room. You can not for example book an economy plus ticket, you just book your regular ticket and then hope to assign the good seats then.

I really think UA underestimates the extra revenue they gain from other Star Alliance elites who choose their airline purely for E+. I personally see this as a first step to Y+ becomming a seperate cabin like on BA, VS BD etc., possibly to coincide with the upgrade of their international business class seats.
 
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Stitch
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting Vermeer (Reply 40):
Just look at the systemwide upgrades UA so "generously" distributes to its top passengers. Many of them end up swapped on LH flights.One silly result of this is that LH elite pax don't get bumped to C or F that often because of excellent yield revenue management but also because they upgrade pax "burning" their vouchers rather that upgrade their own status for free.

Well those upgrades are only good day of flight, so as an LH M&M member, if you want an upgrade, burn the instrument. UA does not offer complimentary upgrades to their elites, either, instead flying the seat empty or giving it to an NRSA. So as a UA elite, if you want the seat, you need to redeem it.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 45):
Hardly. I'm saying that I'll go back to nearly-guaranteed comped upgrades to US Airways domestic First Class...US F is far from the world's greatest F product but it's still better than E+.

If you're guaranteed US F, and feel (rightly so) that it is better then E+, then why did you fly UA E+?  Confused

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 41):
The smart thing to do would be to offer Y+ to full Y/B passengers ahead of their own 1Ks. Fare paid should always trump FF status.

Well CO did that with their "Elite for a Day" program, granting Y fare passengers top-tier (I believe) status so they would trump lower tier elites for the complimentary First Class upgrade CO bestows on their elites. That went over like a lead balloon, but full-fare pax make up like 5% of CO's traveller base and bring in 20% or more of the revenue so they felt it was worth alienating their Silvers and Golds.

I have witnessed when travelling on an "X-UP" Economy fare that books into First Class ("A" booking codes) and stand-by for an earlier flight, the UA gate agents deny higher-level elites an upgrade and instead hold the seat for myself.
 
N1120A
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:50 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 57):
I get it that SQ are more profitable than UA.

You are comparing an airline with 88 airplanes that serves and insulated home population comparable to the City of Los Angeles (proper, not metro) to one of the largest carriers in the world that has to service the world's largest air travel market? That isn't even apples to oranges, it is apples to watermelon
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
FCYTravis
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:56 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 62):
If you're guaranteed US F, and feel (rightly so) that it is better then E+, then why did you fly UA E+?

Umm, because I felt like it? It's not like flying domestic F on basically any carrier (apart from p.s.) is some wonderful luxurious travel experience - it's a wider seat and free booze. It's not so compelling as to make me want to fly nothing but F. On red-eyes especially, E+ is a solid alternative. Plus, flying UA broke up the monotony of endless A321s to PHL. So, E+ could compete successfully for my company-paid business travel. No E+ and it's not even a contest.
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
 
N1120A
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 64):
It's not like flying domestic F on basically any carrier (apart from p.s.) is some wonderful luxurious travel experience - it's a wider seat and free booze

Don't forget food
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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Stitch
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 64):
Umm, because I felt like it?

Fair enough.  Smile
 
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lightsaber
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 28):
NOt allowing E+ for Y/B fares is abusrd -- one of the reasons I chose UA Y/B fares for my father as a non-elite was thanks to E+ -- now it's gone.
Way to alienate high value pax United.

I have to agree. There must be a benifit to paying full fare.

Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 29):
I think that anyone who is a star gold or pays Y/B fares anyways can spend the $299 to buy economy plus access for a year.

Actually, my company will pay full Y fare no questions asked. I have skewed my flights (company lets me choose, within a certain $$$ tolerance) to those airlines with more legroom. The company won't pay for the upgrade. Would I? Probably not. (I tend to fly a lot for 3 months and then I won't fly for the rest of the year.)

All it does is take UA down a notch in my selection list. Cest la vie.
Lightsaber
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FCYTravis
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:09 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 65):
Don't forget food

It's rather easy to forget domestic F-class catering  Wink
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
 
N1120A
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:12 am

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 68):
It's rather easy to forget domestic F-class catering

Perhaps so on US, where you rarely get food anyway  Silly
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FCYTravis
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:36 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 69):
Perhaps so on US, where you rarely get food anyway  

Actually, on my several AA and UA F/C flights, I can't recall anything truly memorable. OK, the ice cream sundae on AA was pretty good, but other than that, it's not as if they're cooking up gourmet meals in the oven of a 757 SFO-MCO. I'm sure the catering is something special going transoceanic, but domestic is, meh.

On short-haul flights, US service is actually superior - LAX-SFO just gets a single baggie of snack mix on UA, whereas SFO-PHX (and all US flights) have the snack basket up front.

No one will argue that US' F-cabin product is competitive in a straight contest... but the price for Preferreds is right.
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
 
Carpethead
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:41 pm

Quoting UAL4ever (Reply 56):

Agreed. I am also a *G but on some non-UA flight, I have been assigned seating waaay in the back despite some empty aisle or window seats in the forward part of the economy section.
 
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christao17
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:31 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 67):
Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 28):
NOt allowing E+ for Y/B fares is abusrd -- one of the reasons I chose UA Y/B fares for my father as a non-elite was thanks to E+ -- now it's gone.
Way to alienate high value pax United.

I have to agree. There must be a benifit to paying full fare.

Yes, but there isn't anything saying that Y/B fares can't get Economy Plus! The OP just said that they can't book E+ in advance.
More than a dozen years flying in and around Asia...
 
abrelosojos
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting Vermeer (Reply 34):
Laxintl, I really don't see which other "perks" UA gives me...shall we start talking about the the fact that UA *G members crowd the LH Senator lounges because of the mediocrity of their own Red Carpet Lounges?

= Not really a perk. If you run the numbers, UA *G members can access domestic U.S. lounges while UA *G members cannot access ANY lounges within the U.S. while on domestic travel. I think the numbers would even out.

Quoting Vermeer (Reply 40):
UA is one of the biggest carriers in the world - 66.7 million passengers in 2005 ( bureau of transportation statistics).
Do you know how many UA status passengers the other airlines have to accomodate? And how much do they "cost"? So the "cost" is bigger for the other partners. Do you think that ZA's status passengers for example are more than the UA ones?

= Your argument goes both ways. I can then argue that more non-UA * members redeem miles on UAL given its huge network than UA holders on a smaller carrier.

Quoting SNATH (Reply 39):
You are right, I've always found this a bit weird. However, do keep in mind that *A carriers do accept UA *A Gold members in their lounges... so IMHO it's only fair that UA does the same.
Tony

= Only when flying internationally.

--> You know, I have *G with 4 carriers ... ok, last year with US as they are my least favourite ... BUT I just dont see the advantage UAL *G members have while flying other *G flights. If I cannot pre-book into good exit row seats, then why should I allow other carriers to pre-book into mine? So the solution is ... fly more and have more than 1 *G  Smile. Oh, and the Y/B fare rule is dumb.

-A.
Live, and let live.
 
ManchesterMAN
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:30 am

Maybe this clears a few things up. Sent by UA to corporate travel agents:

Quote:
United Airlines - United has made the decision to maintain Economy Plus as part of the portfolio of products that help differentiate us from other U.S. carriers. In order to provide this benefit to our customers, they have one less row in coach to supplement the additional legroom. In light of the current high load factor environment an extensive analysis was conducted. Based on these findings, effective September 12 th, United Airlines' Economy Plus eligibility rules will be changing for the following groups:

Full-fare eligibility: The provision which allows customers purchasing Y, B, M, E and U classes to be eligible for Economy Plus seating will cease.

Star Alliance Gold/Silver and US Airways elite: Star Alliance Gold/Silver and US Airways elite customers will no longer have access to Economy Plus seating.

United is the only U.S. carrier to continue to offer its customers a premium economy product. All passengers are still eligible to enjoy Economy Plus seating for a nominal fee. These changes improve the value proposition for our elite Milage Plus members, because now they are the only ones receiving Economy Plus seating without a charge
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m180up
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:40 pm

Quoting Sshank (Reply 61):
and I must say I am fully with UA on this one. As a UA 1K do not get anything on other star carriers (except LH which allows the use of SWUs on a stand- by basis

in US you still get preferred seats, aisle or window seats in the front of the plane, exit rows, if you are an elite member with any *A member.
Werner from SAL
 
CHIFLYGUY
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:52 pm

I still can't believe that UA is doing this to Y/B fares. They must have done their homework on it, though, and believe they aren't going to lose business as a result. Perhaps they figure most of those non-elite Y/B fares are last minute trips by corporate travelers on an exclusive UA contract or something.
 
UTA_flyinghigh
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:01 pm

I am *G and flew 5 Europe-US roundtrips this year in Y and 3 in C/J.
The Y ones were all done on UA, and UA was chosen for that E+ benefit.

They must have their business reasons for that decision, as for me it is simple. I have asked UA to comp my AF status for next year as I shall probably be doing the same amount of flying.

If that doesn't workout, I 'll have to switch airlines again.

UTA  checkeredflag 
Fly to live, live to fly - Air France/KLM Flying Blue Platinum, BMI Diamond Club Gold, Emirates Skywards
 
Nimish
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RE: No More E+ On UA (for *G/S And Full Fare Pax)

Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:22 pm

As an Air Canada *A Gold - I'm unable to get any of the "preferred seats" in economy assigned to me on LH (first few rows of economy - plain vanilla product, just that these are the rows at the front of the a/c).

From that perspective, there's no reason for a LH *A gold to get access to the UA "preferred seats" as a matter of right.
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