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aircanada014
Posts: 1224
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:24 pm

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:10 am

If OS there will be heavy penalty for leaving Star Alliance. A poison pill introduce after the Air Canada takeover battle between American Airlines and Onex for CP and AC... LH and UA came to the rescue and helped AC take over CP...
 
HT
Posts: 5864
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 6:20 am

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:21 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 49):
Sorry. What traffic would LH feed to OS? I would have thought that 90 per cent of the feed between LH and OS was from OS to LH.

While I don't have any numbers of percentages, one must not forget that LH and OS serve many airports in Germany and Austria on nonstop flights from the other country, that do not offer any onward flights (i.e. airports like GRZ, INN, KLU, LNZ, SZG resp. HAJ ).
Schedules to those O&D-destinations are pretty much organized between OS and LH with codeshares in place for every single flight.
If a codeshare-agreement was to be discontinued, this surely would lead to the fact that neither carrier would be able to fill their a/c to acceptable levels if competition would remain.
If OS would go to SkyTeam, for "my" HAJ I would see a scenario in which LH would pull out of HAJ-VIE due to insufficient yield, leaving the route to OS with competition from AB.
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:58 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 49):
Quoting Danny (Reply 12):
Secondly they cut off themselves from any feeding from Lufthansa

Sorry. What traffic would LH feed to OS? I would have thought that 90 per cent of the feed between LH and OS was from OS to LH. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The reason that OS is able to offer connections from practically every airport in Germany is their alliance with LH: the fact that neither airline offers flights from every airport with own equipment, but does have "own" flightnumbers, is a benefit to both.

The only OS flights that are constantly used as feeders for LH are those to FRA and MUC; flights to VIE from HAM, DUS, TXL, HAJ or STR (as well as all the others being offered) are frequently used as feeders for OS: while I agree that you'll probably see more people on OS flights to FRA/MUC connecting to LH than the other way around, I seriously doubt the ratio is 9:1 - I think it's more around 6:4 or, at worst, 7:3 (though I rather doubt that latter one).

Quoting HT (Reply 51):
While I don't have any numbers of percentages, one must not forget that LH and OS serve many airports in Germany and Austria on nonstop flights from the other country, that do not offer any onward flights (i.e. airports like GRZ, INN, KLU, LNZ, SZG resp. HAJ ).

Incidentally, on most of my VIE-HAJ flights, I've seen a couple of passengers connecting onward at HAJ... while this always surprised me quite a bit, it does happen.

Quoting HT (Reply 51):
If OS would go to SkyTeam, for "my" HAJ I would see a scenario in which LH would pull out of HAJ-VIE due to insufficient yield, leaving the route to OS with competition from AB.

One thing is almost absolutely certain - either LH or OS would leave... though I'm not sure whether it would be LH: they offered flights to VIE ex HAJ before the alliance with OS and I wouldn't rule out the possibility that they'd continue doing so if (and that's still a quite big if) OS were to leave Star.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
Danny
Posts: 3752
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:12 pm

Quoting KLM685 (Reply 41):
OS could do something similar as MX did when they left Star Alliance. They kept code-share with most of the major SA carriers and slowly face them out. Their codeshare with AC was just left until recent. In addition, miles from Mexicana could be used in some of their ex-Star Alliance companions.

So it's possible.

Mexicana case was very, very different.

Mexicana was fairly independent airline with its own systems, frequent flyer etc. So it was easier for them to separate. Austrian would have to build all systems and FF program from scratch. The cost of it plus the penalty for leaving STAR would be huge expense. I am sure they could invest those money better. Moreover they could loose a lot of customers as FF pax will remain Miles and More members with their miles and status.

Secondly, there is an open sky within EU which is not the case in Mexico. If OS leaves LH can flood VIE with their own metal (and their partners which surround Austria) which UA or US was unable to do. That is why Mexicana was able to keep code share agreements - because STAR partners needed them. This will not be the case here.

Also, consider financial situation of American STAR members. UA, US, RG or AC were all in bad or very bad shape at the time Mexicana left. They were struggling to resolve internal issues rather than fight back Mexicana. I believe LH will fight back quite fiercely.
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:43 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 53):
So it was easier for them to separate. Austrian would have to build all systems and FF program from scratch.

Considering this bit of information...

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 30):
OS are currently hosted in Lufthansa Systems inventory/DCS, and in Amadeus for Reservations. But so a are a lot of carriers, including some LH competitors.

... as well as this bit...

Quoting SwissA330 (Reply 21):
They are in Miles&More, that's correct, but they have their own customer database

... I'd venture the guess that these two issues would be rather minor ones: they would have to create an own FF program or, for the third time in a row (after Qualiflyer and Miles & More), join someone else's program, but they could effectively continue to use a lot of the systems they have in place. There'd have to be some changes, but if they expect a different alliance to offer more revenue potential, the cost of those changes should be comparatively minor.

I do agree with your second point - the basic setup of the situation is quite different from the one MX was in at the time of their departure from Star.

I continue to think that a departure from Star is quite unlikely.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
sk909
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:38 pm

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:45 pm

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 2):


Jeg har lust på Skandinavisk fitte

Hi VonRichtofen... I hope you know what you are saying... And yes it is a lovely thing...  Silly And I enjoy it a lot...

On regards to OS leaving STAR, there is some argument for and against.
For: OS will have a strong position on the central and earstern european market. They would be able to look at an expansion in to Asia and Middel East.
Against: LH and LX would pose a great threat to OS. I don't think LH and LX would OS slip by with an expansion. OS would have to start a new bonus program, and would also have to rebrand it self. In addition to the cost of getting out of STAR.

I hope OS will stay in STAR. It is a nice airline, and their C/A are beautiful. I flew home from Vienna a few day ago, and on the flight there were 3 extremly beautiful C/A...  Smile But then again they flew for Tyrolean... But WOW...
Life's for Living!
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:35 pm

Maybe these changes could pay off for AUA in the long term, but I doubt they could efford them at the first place.

AUA is still bleeding money. A chance of alliance cost a lot of money. They will loose revenue from Star long bevore they gain something Sky. I doubt that they have the money to ride through this tough year.
 
sk909
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:38 pm

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 56):
I doubt that they have the money to ride through this tough year.

What? Is OS really that ill? I knew that the airline was hurt, but that they were bleeding that bad I didn't know. What are the chances of OS getting back on its feet?
Life's for Living!
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:39 pm

Quoting SK909 (Reply 57):

What? Is OS really that ill? I knew that the airline was hurt, but that they were bleeding that bad I didn't know. What are the chances of OS getting back on its feet?

They had big losses last year. They said that they hope for an black 0 this year, but analysts say that this is optimistic.

But I would say a European airlines that does not make money during the current boom is in serious trouble. I don't knwo of many western Europe flag carriers (beside Allitalia and Olympic) that does not make money.
 
sk909
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:38 pm

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:43 pm

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 58):
I don't knwo of many western Europe flag carriers (beside Allitalia and Olympic) that does not make money.

Well SK isn't doing to well... Although they are improving... Lets see at the end of the year.
Life's for Living!
 
VORFMD
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 58):
But I would say a European airlines that does not make money during the current boom is in serious trouble

Explain "the current Boom" please ?!?!?!

OS suffers a lot from "homemade Austrian" Problems who has nothing to do with OS themselve. Vienna Airport ( Fees, Infrastructure ), OMV ( Fuel Costs ), Austrocontrol ( Delays, short of staff ) etc.etc.
All of those Factors are Moneyloosers for OS and never had any Consequences in the Past for these Companies.

NOW, the new CEO Mr.Ötsch made a Point. He said that he will take legal steps to get the Money back, OS looses in the Past caused on those Companies and he is absolutely right.
 
sk909
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:38 pm

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:30 am

Quoting VORFMD (Reply 60):
NOW, the new CEO Mr.Ötsch made a Point. He said that he will take legal steps to get the Money back, OS looses in the Past caused on those Companies and he is absolutely right.

He is a smart man...  Smile Should have done that a long time ago. But better late than never...  Smile
Life's for Living!
 
HanginOut
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:50 am

I really hope that they don't leave Star. I always try to use Austrian to fly to Europe, as I prefer them over both AC and LH. I find their service to be fantastic and love their cabin crews. I would be devastated if I couldn't fly them any more (I'm a star alliance guy and only fly star carriers)  crying 
 
VORFMD
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:06 am

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 62):
I really hope that they don't leave Star. I always try to use Austrian to fly to Europe, as I prefer them over both AC and LH. I find their service to be fantastic and love their cabin crews. I would be devastated if I couldn't fly them any more (I'm a star alliance guy and only fly star carriers)

I think they will leave..........
 
GRZ-AIR
Posts: 541
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 3:02 am

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:10 am

Their biggest problem is the fleet-mix and internal "political" crap that remains from the Lauda merger as well as the prev. stated OMV fuel costs.

Mr. Ötsch is a smart man, and as AUA is not a big airline things can be changed quickly.. voices here tell us that (as we have a vote in Oct.) things will not be decided until spring of 2007. What they need to do is harmonize the fleet, sort out the fuel issue with OMV, cut all the loss making routes and poor in money from the government...then they will think about leaving or joining allicances.
When I joined A.net it was still free, haha ;).
 
sk909
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:38 pm

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 62):
and love their cabin crews.

Yes they are incredibly lovely...  Smile

Quoting GRZ-AIR (Reply 64):
merger

Mergers are always noisy. It always ends up with two cultures, unless the management handles from the beginning... And they seldom do. I have been involved in a couple of major mergers, and the only ones that were "successful" were the ones that we made a cut-over date. From that that day forward there is only one company, one name, one logo, one culture, one seniority list, one management. Especially the seniority list is always a issue.
Life's for Living!
 
VonRichtofen
Posts: 4296
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 3:10 am

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:26 am

Quoting SK909 (Reply 55):
Hi VonRichtofen... I hope you know what you are saying... And yes it is a lovely thing... Silly And I enjoy it a lot...

Yep, I know what I'm saying. And yes it's a beautiful thing Big grin


Kris
 
sk909
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:38 pm

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:43 am

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 66):
And yes it's a beautiful thing Big grin

That is why I love living in Denmark, and having father living in Norway, and brother living in Sweden. I have my tours around Scandinavia to "sightsee"...
 Big grin
Life's for Living!
 
ZKNBX
Posts: 440
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:24 pm

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:21 pm

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 56):
I doubt that they have the money to ride through this tough year.

Steady goes. Who said they were in such dire straights? Loosing money is one thing, on the slippery slope to bankruptsy is another; if you make such a statement you need to back it up.
 
EmiratesCPH
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:11 pm

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:19 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 23):
SAS is hardly LH feeder.

SAS may have own European or Scandinavian network. But LH is really eating up longhaul traffic which SAS obviously cannot take due to a miniput "longhaul-network".

I think AF/KL BA and LH etc does not leqave much behind for SAS::::
Fly Emirates
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:42 pm

Quoting ZKNBX (Reply 68):
Steady goes. Who said they were in such dire straights? Loosing money is one thing, on the slippery slope to bankruptsy is another; if you make such a statement you need to back it up.

I did not say THIS year!

I spoke about the time period of approximately a year between the announcement to leave Star/M&M/LH-Codeshare and the full integration into FlyingBlue/AF/Skyteam.
They revenue flow from the first stops at day one, but revenue from the new cooperation needs time to built up.
LH will use this time period to build up it's own eastern European network. AUA needs deep pockets are the generosity of its new partners to survive this period.


Btw, what do you think why they need the recapitalisation from the government? Could they survive without it?
 
VORFMD
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:09 am

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 70):
Btw, what do you think why they need the recapitalisation from the government? Could they survive without it?

to pay the Costs for changing to another Alliance ?
 
VORFMD
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:53 am

Rumours have it: OS will join Skyteam

Mr.Ötsch, CEO of OS came back from Paris, uuppss
 
User avatar
WildcatYXU
Posts: 3190
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 pm

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting VORFMD (Reply 72):
Rumours have it: OS will join Skyteam

Hmmm, I personally wouldn't be happy if that's true, since they're the only *A members flying to KSC...But hey, I'll find the way to get there.
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JoFMO
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: Austrian Airlines Wants To Join Skyteam...

Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:20 pm

Don't worry too much. Chances are good that you will get LH to MUC if AUA leaves.

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