ebbuk
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:47 am

RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:33 am

Quoting EDDB (Reply 13):

This is indeed a (political) problem to be sorted out...

for prestige sake, expect it to be done. quickly

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 20):
Wow, thats a lot of cash drain to spread out over maybe 300 frames

Chirac to pay, seeing as his lacky got Airbus into this mess

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 26):
Well obviously trucking and shipping giant fuselage parts around Europe wasn't the best answer,

I thought that

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 26):
Since launch aid is platform specific, is it "legal" to compensate germany by consolidating A320 series aircraft in germany for the loss of A380 jobs?

of course it's legal, when you change the law. For prestige reasons, expect a swift response

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 40):
ahem... haven't you forgotten something?

The UK. (little things like wings, fuel systems, landing hear...)

incredible how marginalised we have become even in Europe. shocking




LET's all wait and see then discuss, speculation is fruitless a bit like gossiping
 
BoomBoom
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:34 am

Quote:
The new chief executive of European airliner manufacturer Airbus is set to present a vast restructuring plan for the group to the board of parent company EADS, union sources told AFP.

According to the CGT trade union, Streiff intends to deepen a previous cost cutting program called Route 06 which foresaw 1.5 billion euros (1.9 billion dollars) of cost savings per year starting in 2006.

Airbus admitted last week that a third round of delays was likely to be announced and sources told AFP the company would announce a halving of its expected deliveries next year.

Sources in the CGT metal workers' union said that the plan would also set out ways to reduce the disadvantage of the strong euro against the dollar by increasing manufacturing activity in dollar areas and encouraging suppliers to shift their production.

Airbus, which employs 57,000 people directly, also plans to reduce the development time for aircraft through a major internal re-shuffle, the CGT said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060928...rancegermanyaerospace_060928195214
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
hb88
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 50):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 26):
"Well obviously trucking and shipping giant fuselage parts around Europe wasn't the best answer,"

I thought that

Uh, maybe I'm missing something, but have you noticed where the various manufacturers of the 787 are located?

Or is such a widespread logistic net sensible when Boeing do it, but not when Airbus do it.

"obviously" my ass.
 
Ken777
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:41 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 15):
Maybe as compensation of losing A380 work, Hamburg is given the A350 production?

I recall reading (about the time the newest version of the 350 was announced) that the 350 XWB would be assembled in Germany. At the time (and also today) I thought that was a logical decision as France has the 300-330 jigs as well as most of the 380 assembly.

Job cuts, if major, raises more concerns about Airbus than the next 380 delay. Airbus is still the largest commercial aircraft company? Lots of planes of backorder and lots of development work on new planes needed? Outside of the 380 program it seems that Airbus has a lot on their plate if they want to stay on top and they are cutting staff? This I don't understand.
 
hb88
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:44 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 50):
Quoting Hb88 (Reply 40):
"ahem... haven't you forgotten something?

The UK. (little things like wings, fuel systems, landing gear...)"

incredible how marginalised we have become even in Europe. shocking

Well, we like to think the wings are quite important...
 
ebbuk
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Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:47 am

RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:45 am

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 52):
Uh, maybe I'm missing something, but have you noticed where the various manufacturers of the 787 are located?

Or is such a widespread logistic net sensible when Boeing do it, but not when Airbus do it.

"obviously" my ass.

You know how I typed a very similar post to yours only mine was peppered with words that would have banned me for life. I paused, and decided to agree with the wise man.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 52):
Uh, maybe I'm missing something, but have you noticed where the various manufacturers of the 787 are located?

Or is such a widespread logistic net sensible when Boeing do it, but not when Airbus do it.

Quote:

Boeing openly acknowledges that the 747 LCF and the 787 “global logistics” plan was conceptually inspired by the Airbus transportation system.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles.../787+special+Global+logistics.html


[Edited 2006-09-29 00:17:27]
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
ikramerica
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 52):
Uh, maybe I'm missing something, but have you noticed where the various manufacturers of the 787 are located?

Or is such a widespread logistic net sensible when Boeing do it, but not when Airbus do it.

"obviously" my ass.



Quoting EbbUK (Reply 55):
You know how I typed a very similar post to yours only mine was peppered with words that would have banned me for life. I paused, and decided to agree with the wise man.

First, both of you are classic.

Second, I agree with your point. Flying large fuselage and wing sections around the world is just as risky an endeavor. Where did anyone claim otherwise?

Third, however, is the fact that the 787 parts are WAY smaller than the A380 parts, and they are using planes and ships, not convoys over land. This "Boeing method" is really similar to the "Airbus method" and is how they deliver other parts to Toulouse via the Belugas.

Or did YOU forget that... both of you should feel sort of dumb for forgetting such an obvious similarity between the 787 and other Airbus programs.

The A380 is unique in it's size and thus the way they transport the huge sections.

Fourth, there is a need beyond politics for the 787 plan. The A380 program was politically split between Germany and France. The 787, in contrast, needs the abilities of the companies in Kansas, Italy and Japan to build the carbon sections. They don't have the facilities or knowledge in Seattle. But one main reason that final assembly remained in Washington state (beating out other options) was because it isn't land locked and because, by air, it's well situated between Italy and Japan.

Fifth, we won't see how it works out until it gets into full swing. It very well be just as big of a foible as the A380 assembly dance. But we won't know until then.

Predict doom all you want for the 787 to deflect the A380 attention, but so far, the 787 is progressing normally. There are the normal hurdles to overcome, issues of weight, suppliers needing more time to ramp up, etc., but nothing so far to indicate a major breakdown in the program outside of "inside information" form certain members of A.net who have an anti-boeing agenda (calling into question where the inside information came from).

But honestly, this is about Airbus talking about moving A380 work to Toulouse from Hamburg because the experiment is not working.

Why do certain british members get so upset when FACTS and AIRBUS STATEMENTS are discussed? You guys act as if it's really Boeing making all this stuff up. Is reality that hard to deal with?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
zvezda
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 49):
What would be the financial compensation for the 159 orders already in place?

The consequences of cancelling the WhaleJet now would be severe. Mind you, I'm obviously not suggesting that Airbus not delivery any WhaleJets. I'm suggesting that they reach negotiated settlements to with those who wish to cancel but have been strong-armed to maintain their orders e.g. TG, MH and not accept any new orders. Wind down production with 50 to 100 built.

The consequences of the WhaleJet fiasco distracting Airbus from getting the A350, A320E, and NSR right are potentially much worse than the consequences of the above.
 
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glideslope
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:18 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 2):
"Could end all activities" - does that mean a complete withdrawal of A380 works from Hamburg?

Very likely IMO. The sooner the better, IMO.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
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glideslope
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:21 am

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 52):
Uh, maybe I'm missing something, but have you noticed where the various manufacturers of the 787 are located?

Or is such a widespread logistic net sensible when Boeing do it, but not when Airbus do it.

"obviously" my ass.

You said it.  bigthumbsup 
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:26 am

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 49):
However, the A350 may be the real victim - the development may have to be postponed by a year or two. It is already late vs. the B787 and even with current EIS estimates, it is unsure if it will be able to grab enough market to make it an attractive return-on-investment in a market that is quickly becoming saturated with B777s and B787s. A couple of years of delay could simply spell the end for the A350, at least in it's current incarnation.

Well, we're getting a bit pessimistic here, to be sure. It remains possible that Airbus could decide to go forward with the A330+ incarnation of the A350, considering that they do have about 100 orders for the thing. If Airbus substitutes the A350XWB there is no guarantee that all the orders remain, or that the customers will agree to pay more. I wonder if Airbus might even face penalties for the much later EIS? Are the original orders considered cancelled, to be replaced by new orders for A350XWB, or what?

We've put a lot of A.Net focus on A380, but that program is mostly spent money. The immediate future of Airbus lies with A350, and there remains a huge question of exactly what it will be, and how those contract issues will be resolved. It's a huge can of worms for Airbus, and although I think it unlikely, they could yet decide not to open it.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
beech19
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 20):
Wow, thats a lot of cash drain to spread out over maybe 300 frames.

300 seems optimistic at this point.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 21):
An extra $10,000,000 per frame cost?

That could hurt...

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 47):
In my opinion, it would be better to cancel the WhaleJet and get the A350, A320E, and NSR right.

I agree for the most part. The only problem is then you have to roll the $15bil into those future projects and sell them for more. That is assuming Airbus actually is required to pay back that poorly spent money at all..

::ready to be flamed- "AHHH!!!! It burns!"::  Wink

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 52):
Or is such a widespread logistic net sensible when Boeing do it, but not when Airbus do it.

Its not sensible at all... no one around here (Everett, WA) thinks it was a good idea to outsource either.
But we can all thank the idiots Boeing brought over from McD for that great business plan. Thank God they are all gone (at least the high level ones).
KPAE via KBVY
 
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Stitch
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:22 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 58):
Mind you, I'm obviously not suggesting that Airbus not delivery any WhaleJets. I'm suggesting that they reach negotiated settlements to with those who wish to cancel but have been strong-armed to maintain their orders e.g. TG, MH and not accept any new orders. Wind down production with 50 to 100 built.

Do you honestly believe that such a decision would convince anyone other then SQ and EY, who have flying frames, to keep their orders? Would SQ and LH and QF feel 15 planes was a sufficient fleet? Especially since they would have to buy 748I's to cover any future expansion and 748F's for their freight needs?

I would think Airbus announcing they did not intend to continue with the program at any date in the near future would result in the immediate cancellation of every order, leaving Airbus with seven frames to distribute to museums as a tax write-off.

And unless Airbus could get a $2 billion deduction for each frame...  covereyes 

I just can't see it possibly happening.
 
zvezda
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:55 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 63):
Would SQ and LH and QF feel 15 planes was a sufficient fleet?

Probably.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 63):
I would think Airbus announcing they did not intend to continue with the program at any date in the near future would result in the immediate cancellation of every order, leaving Airbus with seven frames to distribute to museums as a tax write-off.

They can either be flown profitably or they can't. That doesn't depend on how many may or may not be produced in the future.

Think Concorde.
 
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Stitch
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:32 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 64):
They can either be flown profitably or they can't. That doesn't depend on how many may or may not be produced in the future. Think Concorde.

Concorde provided speed far beyond anything else available to the consumer. Enough people valued time over money to make the plane workable.

Unless the A380 really does add beds and bowling alleys, what does it offer over any other large widebody except capacity? Are people going to pay $2000 extra to have twice as many F suites or J/C seats in their cabin?

Airbus' marketing basis for the A380 is it will be needed to service hubs that can handle no more additional aircraft. 15 frames doesn't strike me as a sufficient number of planes since, all total, they provide the capacity of 20 747s, so you're only saving five slots.
 
anax
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:58 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 65):
Airbus' marketing basis for the A380 is it will be needed to service hubs that can handle no more additional aircraft. 15 frames doesn't strike me as a sufficient number of planes since, all total, they provide the capacity of 20 747s, so you're only saving five slots.

indeed Stitch , but try to get 5 new slots in LHR , or NRT , or JFK , or ORD.......
god is a spotter!!!
 
astuteman
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:45 pm

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 49):
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 47):
it would be better to cancel the WhaleJet

I don't think this is even an option. What would be the financial compensation for the 159 orders already in place? I don't think Airbus/EADS has enough cash to return the down-payments and pay a substantial penalty for order cancellations. Needless to say that this would shatter customer confidence and Airbus would have hard time getting any new orders, even for established models. They have no other choice, but to carry on and minimize the losses.

A perfect summation, Katekebo. There is no choice. (Plagarising) V1 has long-since passed.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 58):
I'm suggesting that they reach negotiated settlements to with those who wish to cancel but have been strong-armed to maintain their orders

All they've got to do now is find someone who "wishes" to cancel  Smile

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 57):
Third, however, is the fact that the 787 parts are WAY smaller than the A380 parts, and they are using planes and ships, not convoys over land

Is there a problem with convoy's overland?

I've spent many happy days moving exceptional loads by road (chemical plant, mostly, and then marine assemblies), most of which dwarf anything that Airbus are moving down the roads.

It might take a bit of time and effort to prove the shipping route initially, but once that is done, it's actually one of the most cost effective methods of moving large parts, particularly if they're NOT heavy,and particularly if the shipments are regular.

If ever you get a chance to go to northern Pennsylvania, go and watch the LNG heat exchangers being shipped out of Wilkes-Barre (by Air Products) destined for the middle East. It'll certainly put the Airbus shipments into perspective for you.  Smile

Regards
 
WINGS
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:37 pm

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 40):
Quoting WINGS (Reply 10):
If true this would make alot of sense.

France: A330/A340/A350/A380
Germany: A318/319/320/321 and future A320NG
Spain: A400M

ahem... haven't you forgotten something?

The UK. (little things like wings, fuel systems, landing hear...)

No Hb88, I was referring to the final assembly. Which currently only takes place in France, Germany and Spain.

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 54):
Well, we like to think the wings are quite important...

It sure is one of the most, if not the most important part of an airplane. You should also feel proud that RR is also a major player when it comes to power plants.  Smile

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
Joni
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:52 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 65):

Unless the A380 really does add beds and bowling alleys, what does it offer over any other large widebody except capacity? Are people going to pay $2000 extra to have twice as many F suites or J/C seats in their cabin?

I'm not quite following your train of though here. The A380 will have more space per passenger, and lower cost - those allow the airlines to offer better services at the same cost as current widebodies.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 58):
The consequences of cancelling the WhaleJet now would be severe. Mind you, I'm obviously not suggesting that Airbus not delivery any WhaleJets. I'm suggesting that they reach negotiated settlements to with those who wish to cancel but have been strong-armed to maintain their orders e.g. TG, MH and not accept any new orders. Wind down production with 50 to 100 built.

Limiting the Superjumbo production to 50-100 deliveries would first of all violate signed contracts with customers, since 150 have been firmly sold. It would also cause the program to not break even financially, hence not make any profit on the 10-billion-euro investment Airbus has made. And profit is what Airbus wants from the program, after all.

Furthermore, why would Airbus voluntarily renounce billions in revenues and profits, not to mention a monopoly position in the VLA segment? That just doesn't make any sense to me. Airbus is also planning to launch the A389 and re-engine the A388 with A350-generation engines, which will allow the A380 to have lower CASM than the A350/B787. The Superjumbo will have a prominent and profitable place in the world's skies for many decades to come.
 
leelaw
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:42 pm

Flight International, 29 September 2006:

Airbus to release Streiff's business review findings 'within days'

Airbus could release the details of the extensive review into its business activities as early as tomorrow, although it is still awaiting final approval from majority shareholder EADS...

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...ness+review+findings+'within.html
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
jdevora
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:32 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 58):
The consequences of cancelling the WhaleJet now would be severe. Mind you, I'm obviously not suggesting that Airbus not delivery any WhaleJets. I'm suggesting that they reach negotiated settlements to with those who wish to cancel but have been strong-armed to maintain their orders e.g. TG, MH and not accept any new orders. Wind down production with 50 to 100 built.

Then... I don't see the point...

The delays are NOW and if you suggest to build those 50-100 frames they need to spend the same resources for get the production up to speed, when it is there... Why stop it? What will be the additional huge engineering costs?

Cheers
JD
 
deltadc9
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:57 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 51):
the company would announce a halving of its expected deliveries next year.

How will this solve anything? WTF????
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
zvezda
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:11 am

Quoting Jdevora (Reply 71):
Then... I don't see the point...

The delays are NOW and if you suggest to build those 50-100 frames they need to spend the same resources for get the production up to speed, when it is there... Why stop it? What will be the additional huge engineering costs?

The big cost to Airbus of continuing on their current course is not just engineering costs; the big cost is the potentially fatal distraction of management from critical projects like the A350, A320E, and NSR. If the decision were made to wind down the WhaleJet program, then it would no longer distract management from the programs on which they need to focus. The wiring problems would be sorted, the airlines that really want WhaleJets would eventually get them, the airlines that want to cancel would be released from their contracts, and Airbus could go back to being the innovative company (consortium) they were when they produced the A300 and A320.
 
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 72):
Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 51):
the company would announce a halving of its expected deliveries next year.

How will this solve anything?

I believe this is in specific reference to the A380 and not their entire product line.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
hb88
Posts: 761
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:06 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 57):
Quoting EbbUK (Reply 55):
"You know how I typed a very similar post to yours only mine was peppered with words that would have banned me for life. I paused, and decided to agree with the wise man."

First, both of you are classic.

Second, I agree with your point. Flying large fuselage and wing sections around the world is just as risky an endeavor. Where did anyone claim otherwise?

Third, however, is the fact that the 787 parts are WAY smaller than the A380 parts, and they are using planes and ships, not convoys over land. This "Boeing method" is really similar to the "Airbus method" and is how they deliver other parts to Toulouse via the Belugas.

Or did YOU forget that... both of you should feel sort of dumb for forgetting such an obvious similarity between the 787 and other Airbus programs.

[snip]

No. I am very well aware of the respective sizes of the A380 and the 787. I'm not quite sure what you're really objecting to here and I definitely don't feel dumb. I thought your post way up there was simply stupid.

I'll repeat the quote and confirm that I think it is stupid and ill-informed:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 26):
Well obviously trucking and shipping giant fuselage parts around Europe wasn't the best answer, but it was an impressive answer, and the whole program was about prestige and impressing people. And Germany couldn't have been left out of that.

Leaving the logistics comment there, this "desire to create an impressive prestigious program" comment is one which we hear again and again, usually from those on the other side of the pond. IMO it is a piece of horseshit. But feel free to support your argument with facts and airbus statements - leaving out any template complaints about Euro politics, worn cultural cliches about the french/germans/spanish/brits and naive twittering about socialistic work practices.

Anyway, I'll go out on a limb and say that I think as a logistical exercise there isn't really much between the two. I think it is a fine idea shipping aircraft parts around Europe. It's impressive but not a huge feat. Airbus take it in their stride and I don't believe that any problems have ever come up over part delivery of the 380 due to the geographic spread of the Natcos. Similarly, the 787 logistical program is impressive. I assume it will work without a hitch as these things are not unknown and the people doing it are specialised professionals.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 57):
Predict doom all you want for the 787 to deflect the A380 attention,

[bing!] thank you for playing, but no I don't believe either of us were predicting doom for the 787 or deflecting attention from the 380. In fact, I am extremely impressed by the logistics involved with the 787 (and the 380 for that matter).

I'm not sure about this odd "deflecting attention" thing (whatever that may mean). The 380 has lots of attention and although the Boeing cheerleaders have this weird obsession with desparately wanting it and/or Airbus to fail, I'm not sure the rest of the world see it that way. Selah.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 57):
Quoting EbbUK (Reply 55):
[snip]

...nothing so far to indicate a major breakdown in the program outside of "inside information" form certain members of A.net who have an anti-boeing agenda (calling into question where the inside information came from).

Oh come on, you can't throw in a teaser like that. I've heard all sorts of things about the 787 and IMO if only half of them were true, it would merely sound like an ambitious project which is encountering the unsurprising hurdles you would expect in the course of such an enterprise - some might be serious, some might not.

As for this "anti-Boeing agenda" good god, do you really believe this? Have you been out lately to get some fresh air? What on earth does an "anti-Boeing agenda" mean on a public aviation discussion forum? I'm perplexed and if you stop and think about it, I'm sure you would be too.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 57):
Quoting EbbUK (Reply 55):But honestly, this is about Airbus talking about moving A380 work to Toulouse from Hamburg because the experiment is not working.

"experiment"? Spare me. Only the fevered minds of some Boeing cheerleaders think that way (you do realise that don't you?). In terms of manufacturing and industrial ramp-up, go and read (carefully) the FI article a month or so ago. It covers the wiring harness issue in unglamorous, factual detail. Yes, there are issues with the industrial ramp-up. Yes other options are being considered to address the shortcomings. Yes, there is much work to do. What a surprise.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 57):
Quoting EbbUK (Reply 55):Why do certain british members get so upset when FACTS and AIRBUS STATEMENTS are discussed? You guys act as if it's really Boeing making all this stuff up. Is reality that hard to deal with?

Sorry, I'm not British (not even European). I just know shoddy and ill-informed opinion when I see it. I agree it's not Boeing making this stuff up, it's poorly informed weirdly obsessive Boeing cheerleaders who are. Not that there aren't weirdly obsessive pro-Airbus members, but we all plough our own furrow...

Reality of course does and will prevail - which is why some of us get so annoyed with half-assed posts sticking the fork into Airbus/the 380/etc/ad nauseam. It's dull, trite and ultimately quite frustrating.

Anyway, onward and upward...
 
DAYflyer
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:26 am

The board of EADS has adjurned without a decision.

Fair use:
EADS Board Ends Airbus A380 Meeting
Friday September 29, 1:00 pm ET
EADS Board Ends Airbus A380 Meeting Promising More Discussions

PARIS (AP) -- Customers and investors hoping for word from Airbus parent EADS about delays to the flagship A380 jet program, which is already running one year behind schedule, will have to wait longer.
The EADS board, which met Friday to discuss the A380, ended the forum without announcing a decision.

"The board of directors will continue this discussion in the near future," said a statement from the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co., which owns 80 percent of Airbus. It gave no further details about the talks.

Link http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060929/france_airbus.html?.v=2&printer=1
One Nation Under God
 
BoomBoom
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 75):
I agree it's not Boeing making this stuff up, it's poorly informed weirdly obsessive Boeing cheerleaders who are.

Is this "made up" too?

Quote:
engineers in Germany and Spain stuck with an earlier version of Paris-based Dassault Systemes SA's Catia design software, even though the French and British offices had upgraded to Catia 5.

That meant the German teams couldn't add their design changes for the electrical wiring back into the common three- dimensional digital mockup being produced in Toulouse, Champion says. Efforts to fiddle with the software to make it compatible failed, meaning that changes to the designs in the two offices couldn't be managed and integrated in real time, he says.

The situation worsened when construction and tests of the first A380s generated demands for structural changes that would affect the wiring. The changes in configuration had to be made manually because the software tools couldn't talk to each other.

``What happened, apparently, is that there were several different design versions in use simultaneously,'' says Tecop's Weber, who says he was informed of the difficulties by contacts within Airbus's German design bureau. ``That was disastrous.''

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aSGkIYVa9IZk
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
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clickhappy
Posts: 9148
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:38 am

Wow. "...in the near future."

Airbus needs to get their shit together. They are starting to look like Boeing in the mid to late 90s  Wink

I was just reading a Seattle Times piece where Eastern had their panties in a wad because the first 757 was two weeks late, even though it was still ahead of schedule by Boeings production estimates.
 
hb88
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Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:25 am

RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 77):
Is this "made up" too?

Quote:
[snip - media extract deleted]

Of course not. I assumed you would understand the type of a.net-generated opinion/comment I was referring to.
 
mham001
Posts: 5668
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:45 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 76):

"The board of directors will continue this discussion in the near future,"

Nothing like a little urgency.
 
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clickhappy
Posts: 9148
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:53 am

Just thinking out loud here, I wonder if the EADS powers-that-be need to dicsuss certain things with the politcal supporters of Airbus.

This whole saga is painful to watch. I hope it has a happy ending.
 
hb88
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Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:25 am

RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:55 am

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 80):
Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 76):

"The board of directors will continue this discussion in the near future,"

Nothing like a little urgency.

This is quite surprising. I speculate that the statement from EADS may have had a bit of translation slant to it. I very very much doubt that customers will be left up in the air in the near future in reality.

It's also interesting to see this article re-reporting the Virgin statement of yesterday which confirmed no cancellations as the delays possibly affecting its orders.
 
scaledesigns
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:12 am

RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:59 am

"Only cost Airbus 5.5 billion in cost overruns"................

I thought they spent almost that much on the 1st A350 in development
costs alone?
F1 Tommy
 
Ken777
Posts: 9994
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:05 am

Ouch!

I think a lot of airlines were looking for the Board to get things organized and let them know something they could depend on. I would now expect lots of phone call explaining the new current situation with the board.

I would not be surprised that the Board, after a lot of discussion, decided that they wanted more information and/or options for the proposed decisions to be made. They might also have wanted some time to think about the proposals - and to talk with others "in their home country" - before making a final decision.

There are some very significant decisions to be made by the Board and they are clearly in the hot seat. As President Truman said around 60 years ago - the buck stops here.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 79):
Of course not. I assumed you would understand the type of a.net-generated opinion/comment I was referring to.

Could you cite some examples of this "made up stuff"?
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
leelaw
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Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:09 am

Quoting Scaledesigns (Reply 83):
I thought they spent almost that much on the 1st A350 in development
costs alone?

Airbus, planned to spend $5.5B on the development of the "old all-new A350" if it had gone forward. A relatively small fraction of that amount has actually been expended to date.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
EDDB
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:46 am

RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 64):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 63):
Would SQ and LH and QF feel 15 planes was a sufficient fleet?

Probably.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 63):
I would think Airbus announcing they did not intend to continue with the program at any date in the near future would result in the immediate cancellation of every order, leaving Airbus with seven frames to distribute to museums as a tax write-off.

They can either be flown profitably or they can't. That doesn't depend on how many may or may not be produced in the future.

Think Concorde.

You forgot the 'not' after probably...


Fleet size does not have an effect on profitability? 'They can be flown profitably or they can't.' ????

Not long ago I thought you know what you're talking about...

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 58):
The consequences of cancelling the WhaleJet now would be severe. Mind you, I'm obviously not suggesting that Airbus not delivery any WhaleJets. I'm suggesting that they reach negotiated settlements to with those who wish to cancel but have been strong-armed to maintain their orders e.g. TG, MH and not accept any new orders. Wind down production with 50 to 100 built.

I still can't believe you really mean that!

You sort out all problems and get the thing going, and when you start to get a return on your investment you pull the plug?

Man, that's like....... working your ass off to get that hot chick laid, and when you're finally allowed to enter her 'room' you refuse to come!!!
 
exarmywarrant
Posts: 263
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:03 am

RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:16 am

So,

It's the 29th...

Where's the announcement???
 
hb88
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Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:25 am

RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 85):
Quoting Hb88 (Reply 79):
Of course not. I assumed you would understand the type of a.net-generated opinion/comment I was referring to.

Could you cite some examples of this "made up stuff"?

Oh dear. Here we go again.

To save in-post bickering, just have a look through any standard AvB thread and look for things such as the great Airbus aircraft giveaways; ill-formed opinions about european politics and conclusions as to how this affects Airbus (this could fill volumes); opinions about french and german employment law and conclusions as to how this affects Airbus; statements about yet-undisclosed performance failures of the A380; opinions about the relationship between Airbus and BAE Systems etc etc...

I'm sure the rejoinder will be "ah ha! you can't cite examples [rub hands with glee]". But no, not being bothered isn't the same as not being able to.

Its also a little academic as the frothing-at-the-mouth Boeing advocates (and Airbus advocates for that matter) aren't commonly amenable to anything other than examples and facts that agree with their opinions.

cheers.
 
exarmywarrant
Posts: 263
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:03 am

RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:20 am

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 89):
Its also a little academic as the frothing-at-the-mouth Boeing advocates (and Airbus advocates for that matter) aren't commonly amenable to anything other than examples and facts that agree with their opinions.

Sounds like politics...
 
art
Posts: 3121
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:21 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 73):
The big cost to Airbus of continuing on their current course is not just engineering costs; the big cost is the potentially fatal distraction of management from critical projects like the A350, A320E, and NSR. If the decision were made to wind down the WhaleJet program, then it would no longer distract management from the programs on which they need to focus.

I don't agree at all. I think that more management time would be required for a complete change of tack than to carry on with the program.


Quoting Zvezda (Reply 73):
The wiring problems would be sorted, the airlines that really want WhaleJets would eventually get them, the airlines that want to cancel would be released from their contracts, and Airbus could go back to being the innovative company (consortium) they were when they produced the A300 and A320.

Your proposal makes no sense to me. Why stop production of a product when production problems have been sorted out? Particularly when future orders will probably be produced at very high levels of profit.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 77):
``What happened, apparently, is that there were several different design versions in use simultaneously,'' says Tecop's Weber, who says he was informed of the difficulties by contacts within Airbus's German design bureau. "That was disastrous.''

Couldn't agree more with his assessment.

Regarding sorting out the out of sync design problems, does anyone know if the immediate solution sought is to fix software incompatibility or is it to "muddle through" while the software problem is sorted?
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15055
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 75):
"experiment"? Spare me. Only the fevered minds of some Boeing cheerleaders think that way (you do realise that don't you?). In terms of manufacturing and industrial ramp-up, go and read (carefully) the FI article a month or so ago. It covers the wiring harness issue in unglamorous, factual detail. Yes, there are issues with the industrial ramp-up. Yes other options are being considered to address the shortcomings. Yes, there is much work to do. What a surprise.

So, you admit problems up and down the manufacturing process, and all indications point to a structural breakdown in the system, from language to systems issues, with convoys not taking place and a general "wrench in the gears" of this glorious system, a type of commercial production that has never been done on this scale before, and yet it is not fair to call it an "experiment?"

It's not a proven method. Thus, it's an experiment. Some of the best advancements in human history have come from experimenting. It's not a derogatory term, unless you take everything as an offense, which it seems you do when the A380 is mentioned.

And if you can provide me any evidence that this experiment is a grand success now that it is 2006, I'd like to see it. Not puff pieces marveling at the process, but a critical analysis justifying it at this stage.

The fact that Airbus themselves have talked about moving A380 production to one facility and ending the whole dance points to me being right and you being wrong, but hey, why should what Airbus says influence you? It must have been a Boeing cheerleader who infiltrated Airbus at the highest levels and made them say that...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
BoomBoom
Posts: 2459
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:26 am

RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:25 am

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 89):
I'm sure the rejoinder will be "ah ha! you can't cite examples

I just know shoddy and ill-informed opinion when I see it.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
TeamAmerica
Posts: 1540
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:38 am

RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
If the following report is correct EADS will outline the revised A380 delivery schedule tomorrow thus avoiding the 4 week delay reported previously

And....no report? Another 4 weeks of A.Net speculations - can we stand the suspense?  hyper 
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
EDDB
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:46 am

RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:37 am

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 89):
To save in-post bickering, just have a look through any standard AvB thread and look for things such as the great Airbus aircraft giveaways; ill-formed opinions about european politics and conclusions as to how this affects Airbus (this could fill volumes); opinions about french and german employment law and conclusions as to how this affects Airbus; statements about yet-undisclosed performance failures of the A380; opinions about the relationship between Airbus and BAE Systems etc etc...

I'm sure the rejoinder will be "ah ha! you can't cite examples [rub hands with glee]". But no, not being bothered isn't the same as not being able to

Oh boy, that's word by word what comes to my mind from time to time....
 bigthumbsup 
 
Scorpio
Posts: 5042
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 73):
The big cost to Airbus of continuing on their current course is not just engineering costs; the big cost is the potentially fatal distraction of management from critical projects like the A350, A320E, and NSR. If the decision were made to wind down the WhaleJet program, then it would no longer distract management from the programs on which they need to focus. The wiring problems would be sorted, the airlines that really want WhaleJets would eventually get them, the airlines that want to cancel would be released from their contracts, and Airbus could go back to being the innovative company (consortium) they were when they produced the A300 and A320.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make ANY sense. At all. After all the wiring and thus production problems are solved, why on earth would you cancel the thing? How exactly would management be 'distracted' by the A380 after the design problems had been solved? For the best of me, I don't see how the developments of the other planes would benefit in any way from cancelling A380 after fixing the problems and building 50 -100 of them.

Oh, and the plane is called A380.
 
hb88
Posts: 761
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:25 am

RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 93):
Quoting Hb88 (Reply 89):
I'm sure the rejoinder will be "ah ha! you can't cite examples

I just know shoddy and ill-informed opinion when I see it.

Well, you'll have no problem finding some examples then!

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 92):
The fact that Airbus themselves have talked about moving A380 production to one facility and ending the whole dance points to me being right and you being wrong, but hey, why should what Airbus says influence you? It must have been a Boeing cheerleader who infiltrated Airbus at the highest levels and made them say that...

Sorry if I wasn't clear. My point was that I don't think the cause of the delay has anything to do with the logistics chain or things up and down the manufacturing process. I think you might find that convoys not happening might be due to the production bottle-neck in TLS with the installation going on there, not any issue with the convoys per se. Recall that the harness installation procedure is a very specific part of the manufacturing process. To extrapolate that to the other issues you mention, IMO, isn't really accurate or warranted.

As for the language and systems issues, of course there are going to be problems which need to be solved - Airbus uses routinely at least four languages and again, every project has systems development. Again, from my knowledge, I think extrapolating the wiring harnesse issues to other factors including these is wishful thinking by Boeing cheerleaders and is not correct.

As for the right and wrong, as before, I still think you're wrong with this statement:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 26):
Well obviously trucking and shipping giant fuselage parts around Europe wasn't the best answer, but it was an impressive answer, and the whole program was about prestige and impressing people. And Germany couldn't have been left out of that.

I don't think the logistics have anything to do with the delays. I don't think the whole A380 program was about prestige and impressing people. I do however agree that it would have been hard to leave Germany out of the project given it is a consortium member and is part Airbus.

Airbus proposing moving the process to another facility does not confirm your opinion as, IMO, you have assumed too broadly the reasons for this move being suggested.
 
hb88
Posts: 761
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:25 am

RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:58 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 96):
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 73):
"The big cost to Airbus of continuing on their current course is not just engineering costs; the big cost is the potentially fatal distraction of management from critical projects like the A350, A320E, and NSR. If the decision were made to wind down the WhaleJet program, then it would no longer distract management from the programs on which they need to focus. The wiring problems would be sorted, the airlines that really want WhaleJets would eventually get them, the airlines that want to cancel would be released from their contracts, and Airbus could go back to being the innovative company (consortium) they were when they produced the A300 and A320."

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make ANY sense. At all. After all the wiring and thus production problems are solved, why on earth would you cancel the thing? How exactly would management be 'distracted' by the A380 after the design problems had been solved? For the best of me, I don't see how the developments of the other planes would benefit in any way from cancelling A380 after fixing the problems and building 50 -100 of them.

Oh, and the plane is called A380.

I agree, it makes utterly no sense. "management distraction"? It's not as if the A350, NSR, A400M etc people sit around all day wringing their hands going "my goodness, what can we do about that wiring harness issue.. woe is me... ". They're too busy working.

At a management level, of course the general state of a major project is of is a concern, but do you seriously think that this will provide a "fatal distraction" from their core responsibilities?

What planet do you live on?

Do you realise how practically compartmentalised this issue is within Airbus?

[Zvezda: I assume you're able to understand that the aircraft is called the A380?]
 
ebbuk
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:47 am

RE: New A380 Delivery Schedule Released 9/29

Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:52 am

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 75):

And your subsequent responses hence, I thought were masterly, precisely weighted and measured in the face of some truly baffling opines esp from the one with the bent wookie and Boom Boom.

I choose to show the respect I have for you by adding you to my Repected Users List.

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