Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 2

SeeTheWorld · Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 198):
Well... Why would it get some attention??? George's dictatorship doesn't care. I've tried for hours to find some real informarion here in Thailand - none to be had on CNN/BBC - if one is killed in a school kidnapping in Colorado - it's breaking news.

Yet, if a Comair CRJ crashes, CNN/BBC come to a halt with their "breaking news".

Pathetic. Get a life and a grip of the world, nobody cares about your f-ing CRJ in LEX if you don't care about a 738 in Brazil.

HEY!! That's enough of this sh*t!!!

I am no fan of my current government, but your comments above are absolutely out of line. A crash in LEX that killed 49 people is no more or less tragic than this accident.

And as far as a 16-year-old student being killed in a high school in Colorado, that concerns every parent in the U.S.

If you can't add anything productive, then please refrain.

PPVRA · Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting Comorin (Reply 194):
Brazil magazine (link above) says that the Goverment claims there are survivors...Hope it's true.

Let the media confuse itself. There has been no official reports of survivors, nor any confirmation. Infraero at one point acknowlodged information about survivors, but it seems that came from a local mayor and probably turned out to be false.

It is not confusing in the Brazilian media, at least not for me.

The following is a link to the official note from the FAB (link in Port.):

http://www.fab.mil.br/imprensa/Noticias/2006/09_set/3009_nota2.htm

"Until the present moment there are no signs of survivors in the area"

And they have people on the ground.

[Edited 2006-09-30 23:17:22]

richm · Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:04 am

ITV also states that there are "no signs" of survivors.

http://www.itv.com/news/index_9369c41fe8812252f0e686cf9b9d3aee.html

osiris30 · Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:07 am

Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 198):
Get a life and a grip of the world,

Since Time Warner bought CNN it has gone down hill and turned into just another propoganda machine, with some elments of Jerry Springer thrown in. A shame too, because in it's earlier days CNN was *the source* for more of the world Sad

Having said that, let's not drag political BS into this right now. 155 are dead. Let's focus on their families and friends and worry about the politics later.

index2006 · Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 205):
155 are dead. Let's focus on their families and friends and worry about the politics later.

Agree with it. Also should we respect other people's views. I'm a free thinker who is used to analysing from all points of view. Brainstorming and not policing ideas. My only commitment is with TRUTH!!

QFSYD744 · Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 198):
Well... Why would it get some attention??? George's dictatorship doesn't care.

Talked to my cousin in California. They are preparing to depart this evening on QF from LAX-SYD. They said the news said nothing, if very little in the United States in regards to the accident. They also said the main thing on the news in the United States is about a Senator who doubles as a sexual preadator?

As far as Georgie goes, he will get his in due time! wink

PPVRA · Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:31 am

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 207):
Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 198):
Well... Why would it get some attention??? George's dictatorship doesn't care.

Talked to my cousin in California. They are preparing to depart this evening on QF from LAX-SYD. They said the news said nothing, if very little in the United States in regards to the accident.

It was the front page story at CNN.com for most of the day today, possibly since yesterday.

trekster · Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:42 am

Its been on the front page of CNN/BBC and Reuters all day.

RIP

pilotaydin · Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:47 am

this thread has been hijacked and gone haywire......

there are dead pilots, crew and people here....and look at the shit some of you have posted....unreal

CcrlR · Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:50 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 18):
So, it's the first 737-800 write off, and probably is one or the young plane (fly only about 200 hours during 17 days) lost in an accident.

Is this is the first fatal accident(and crash) with a 737NG(flight involved)?

Should have the TCAS notified them about this?

Amazonphil · Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:03 am

Quoting CcrlR (Reply 211):
Is this is the first fatal accident(and crash) with a 737NG(flight involved)?

Should have the TCAS notified them about this?

First one other than WN's landing mishap with a 73G at MDW earlier this year.
But the fatallty was not onboard the plane...was a pass. in a car.

Rgs

richm · Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 210):
this thread has been hijacked and gone haywire......
there are dead pilots, crew and people here....and look at the shit some of you have posted....unreal

I disagree, I don't think anyone has said anything that could be regarded as highly inappropriate.

This forum consists of aviation enthusiasts and professionals, therefore, the cause of the disaster is going to be of interest to many of them. Perhaps "interest" is the wrong word to use, but I am pretty certain that most of us are eager to know how and why this could happen. Just because people are speculating on the matter, doesn't mean to say nor imply that they hold little regard for those who lost their lives in this tragic disaster.

hoya · Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting CcrlR (Reply 211):
Should have the TCAS notified them about this?

If a collission did in fact occur, that is the question investigators will be trying to answer.

Maybe this was answered in a previous post (I admit, I'm lazy), but what is the radar coverage like in the region of Brazil where the crash occurred? How was ATC not able to see two planes at the same altitude heading towards each other (if a collission did occur)? I just hope that IF ATC does carry some blame, that the pilots of the Legacy are not used as scapegoats and attention be deflected away from possible ATC issues.

SeeTheWorld · Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:06 am

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 210):
this thread has been hijacked and gone haywire......

there are dead pilots, crew and people here....and look at the shit some of you have posted....unreal

It has gone haywire .. what are some of these people thinking??

AirSpare · Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:07 am

@Lufthansa747

I can't believe you said that on this thread. I have relatives in Brasil, I'm American and also have a CPF. you have insulted everyone on a.net with that post.

drewfly · Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:30 am

I looked up Cachimbo AFB on Google Maps. You people weren't kidding, this place is in the middle of nowhere.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...204&spn=0.046327,0.098534&t=k&om=1

ikramerica · Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 205):
Let's focus on their families and friends and worry about the politics later.

Come now. While I think the america bashing is dumb, nobody is focusing on the friends and family, honestly.

Since we don't know who the friends and family are, and we've seen 400+ posts, this is obviously not a thread about that...

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 208):
It was the front page story at CNN.com for most of the day today, possibly since yesterday.

Exactly. And Foxnews.com. And many other USA news sites.

And most news organizations are also covering a bridge collapse in Montreal that has trapped people alive.

It's only the company who owns the NYTimes/LATimes/Boston Globe/Washington Post/Chicago Tribune that seems to be ignoring it and the Montreal collapse, focusing on bashing the GOP instead, beyond the D.C. scandal.

So instead of blaming America for everything (you know who you are), you might want to realize that we are not one unified news block (free press) and there are other things going on in the world. The reason a domestic crash gets more attention is because it impacts our country more than a crash in a foreign nation, but it doesn't mean we are ignoring it.

antiuser · Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:34 am

First photo of crash site released:

famfmarques · Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:43 am

Returning to the subject, Terra just published what seems to be the first pictures of the crash site released by ANAC.

http://noticias.terra.com.br/brasil/.../0,,OI35864-EI306-FI402509,00.html

Lumberton · Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:46 am

CNN News report (for those that think that this isn't getting any attention in the U.S.):
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/09/30/brazil.crash/index.html

Quote:
Brazil's defense minister and airport officials said the plane may have clipped a corporate jet before crashing into the jungle. Brazilian authorities had first believed the planes collided, but then backed off that explanation. (Watch families desperate for news -- 1:20 Video)

The corporate jet, a Legacy 600 made by Embraer, safely landed in Cachimbo. Its pilot reported seeing, "out of nowhere, a large shadow" passing his plane, clipping his wing, and forcing an emergency landing, said Defense Minister Waldir Pires.

PPVRA · Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:48 am

Incredible. Completely engulfed by the trees. They did a good job finding it so quick.

It doesn't really look like it crashed nose-first, however. That's a big piece of fuselage right there.

United787 · Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:55 am

Quoting Antiuser (Reply 220):
First photo of crash site released:

Seeing that picture of the Gol logo on the tail through the trees makes it all the more real and sad.

Sad

EMBQA · Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:00 am

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 207):
They said the news said nothing, if very little in the United States in regards to the accident. They also said the main thing on the news in the United States is about a Senator who doubles as a sexual preadator?

Well... it was banner news last night on CNN.com and FoxNews.com around 930pm when I went to bed last night... it was on the morning news before I left for work in the morning... and it was the second story when I got home from work today. I've seen it mentioned or covered every time I watched the news today.

Alessandro · Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:01 am

One 21-year old lady missed the Gol flight due to booking hiccup, lucky her.

LipeGIG · Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:01 am

Quoting CcrlR (Reply 211):
Is this is the first fatal accident(and crash) with a 737NG(flight involved)?

Second New Generation, please look to reply 8. First 737-800.

Quoting CcrlR (Reply 211):
Should have the TCAS notified them about this?

Mr. Barioni (Gol Vice President) confirmed that PR-GTD departs MAO without any item NO-GO. Only the investigation will confirm to us the real reason the TCAS doesn't notify about the traffic.

Quoting Hoya (Reply 214):
Maybe this was answered in a previous post (I admit, I'm lazy), but what is the radar coverage like in the region of Brazil where the crash occurred? How was ATC not able to see two planes at the same altitude heading towards each other (if a collission did occur)? I just hope that IF ATC does carry some blame, that the pilots of the Legacy are not used as scapegoats and attention be deflected away from possible ATC issues.

Yes, the are is covered by Cindacta 4. Just to explain ATC control in Brazil:

Cindacta 1 - Rio, Sao Paulo, Minas Gerais and Espirito Santo (southeast Brazil), airports: GIG, GRU, SDU, CGH, VIX, CNF and PLU among others
Covers also BSB area.

Cindacta 2 - Parana (CWB), Rio Grande do Sul (POA), Santa Catarina (NVT, JOI, FLN) and Mato Grosso do Sul (CGR).

Cindacta 3 - Northeast of Brazil

Cindacta 4 - Rest of Brazil, including BSB area.

SIVAM - Legal Amazon

There 567 observation points, including 2 R99 planes used also in Amazon region (they have been used on the rescue operation)

Hoya, any further comment from myself will be pure speculation. I believe we will only know the right reason with the black box of both planes and after the complete investigation by brazilian authorities.

Could be an ATC error or even anything wrong in one of the two planes.

Quoting Index2006 (Reply 206):

Quoting Famfmarques (Reply 221):

Didn't realize before... welcome to A.Net... even on this sad day.

Felipe

BostonGuy · Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:10 am

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 207):
They are preparing to depart this evening on QF from LAX-SYD. They said the news said nothing, if very little in the United States in regards to the accident. They also said the main thing on the news in the United States is about a Senator who doubles as a sexual preadator?

I don't think they're paying close attention... it's a Congressman, not a Senator.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 219):
Exactly. And Foxnews.com. And many other USA news sites.

Absolutely. This is the 2nd day of this receiving constant coverage. It may not be on TV 24/7, but since most Americans are getting their news from the internet first, that's where the story has been page one all this time.

Pretty hard to cover a crash for TV when you don't even know where the crash took place.

Again, I'd have to say QFSYD747's relatives who are here in the USA are distracted and thus not picking up that this event is getting extensive coverage.

10 minutes after Part I of this thread was started people began posting what they were hearing from CNN, and it was basically as accurate as any information available at that time. Those who claim that American networks aren't covering this are not being truthful. Even the Boston Globe, both in print and on the web, gave extensive coverage. Meanwhile, 50 minutes after the thread started a German news web site was reporting simply that the plane was missing... never mentioned a crash.

Selective listening and reporting by posters is the bulk of the problem.

TACAA320 · Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:13 am

Quoting 777Daedalus (Reply 66):
At least FIVE survivors found at GOL crash site -

According to CNN unfortunatelly there are no survivors.

Indeed another black page in aviation history.

C010T3 · Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:19 am

Quoting Amazonphil (Reply 154):
I guess they view this as the only jungle in Brazil is only in the state of Amazonas

I have to say... I think you skipped some Geography lessons. Do you actually know the difference between "Amazonas" and "Amazônia"? The forest is located within 9 countries and 9 Brazilian states.

Quoting Amazonphil (Reply 166):
Well the area in which it went down doesn't necessarily have a river that drains into the Amazon river basin itself.

The area is part of the basin. Just because there isn't a river that near, it doesn't mean that it is not part of one. Those must have been the days, when knowing by heart all Amazon River tributaries was part of Geography class in Brazil.

LipeGIG · Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:22 am

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 228):
One 21-year old lady missed the Gol flight due to booking hiccup, lucky her.

The news shows more 2 person with the same situation. One lost the flight because it's name was mentioned wrongly on E-Ticket and due to the time to correct, he lost the flight 1907.

What about a Part 3... seems to be TOO Long again !

Felipe

A300605R · Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:42 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 232):
Quoting Amazonphil (Reply 154):
I guess they view this as the only jungle in Brazil is only in the state of Amazonas

I have to say... I think you skipped some Geography lessons. Do you actually know the difference between "Amazonas" and "Amazônia"? The forest is located within 9 countries and 9 Brazilian states.

Guess that's what Amazonphil said. Tropical forests are covering a larger area than the state of Amazonas.

It's so sad to read all the names of the POB. I still hope that at least some of them survived!!

OPNLguy · Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:42 am

Starting Part-3 now.. Please post there...

C010T3 · Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:46 am

Quoting A300605R (Reply 236):
Tropical forests are covering a larger area than the state of Amazonas.

And not because they are outside of its borders, it means they have another name. It's just one forest.

swissy · Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:46 am

First, bless these passengers/crews and my condolences to their families

Second, please guys try to stay on topic I do not think this is the right time and forum......... perhaps instead we can say all a little prayer...... and forget the politics and news............

Thank you

Cheers,

richm · Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:55 am

OPNLguy has started Part-3 for this topic:

Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3 (by OPNLguy Oct 1 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Remember that some people have slow internet connections. Long topics tend to use more system resources too.

[Edited 2006-10-01 01:56:56]

allstarflyer · Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:57 am

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 12):
I guess it is very plausible that these airplanes have collided with each other,

Yeah, I think Bushpilot was the 1st one to bring that up in the last thread.

Quoting Index2006 (Reply 49):
he didn't know why radars hadn't detected

I've also read that the TCAS may not have been functioning properly/if at all on one of these a/c

. Because that can always invite trouble if that's the case. I hate dispatching a/c w/o things like Wing A/I fail MEL's and the like. TCAS MEL's are another.

Quoting Index2006 (Reply 49):
The investigations should take ninety days for any answers

And hopefully that will provide suitable answers to help prevent anything similiar in the future.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 91):
It has to be a fluke like this for 2 TCAS-equiped planes with well trained crews to collide in the flight levels.

Yeah, it's horrible to think 2 TCAS-equipped a/c would have this happen. One question I have - were both a/c filed at the same altitude? If that's the case, wouldn't ATC exercise the foreknowledge they would have had to warn both a/c in advance about possible traffic? That (currently) is the matter about which I am most curious. If it was the case (and if the planned airspeeds were already available to ATC in the ATS strips), both a/c may have been warned in advance to expect traffic or to be vectored or receive a different altitude altogether. But this is assuming there was a collision, and, of course, this is speculation (which I believe is harmless, since we are all curious and I am content to wait for the professionals to uncover the facts). I'm just curious about what may have been possible.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 101):
If the collision (assuming there indeed was one) was anything of a head-on nature, the closure speeds would have been high

Yeah, and being in the cockpit jumpseat, hearing that "Warning, warning" from TCAS was evidence that it takes little time for another a/c to be visible and suddenly passing by you at whatever angle. It just makes me more curious about the TCAS angle on this tragic event.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 114):
Quoting 77411 (Reply 109):
Here we go lets blame the Americans. We all know it was a Bush Admin plot to bring down this plane. The pilot of the Legacy was such a great pilot that he was able to, at cruise speed, purposely slice the 737 with his wing and bring it down. I am sure the US press has tons of media personnel stationed in Brazil in the case some crazy American pilot tries to take down another aircraft. Come on man think about it. Arent they on a Military base in the middle of no where. I am sure in time the US media will have the pilot on TV.

Stop it! This is absolutely unncessary.

No kidding.

Quoting Richierich (Reply 133):
Quoting Lijnden (Reply 131):
Is terrorism a possibility? For example a bomb might have blown off the tail or some other part that would have hit the Legacy? I cannot imagine the butter/knife slicing theory at high speeds.

The truth is that it is always a possibility until it can be ruled out.

This is the part I find most valuable in threads like this - bringing up the possibilities without resting in assumptions or making conclusions.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 164):
Right now alot of people are probably focused more on doing than talking, so information doesn't flow as smoothly or accurately. Smart people shut up in these situations and only speak well known factual information.

Quoting Index2006 (Reply 169):
--The plane left the U.S on 9-11.

Edited for grammar.

-R

[Edited 2006-10-01 01:59:09]

timeair · Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:37 am

Ok, everone has speculated that the 2 aircraft collided. However eyewitness reports say the 737 "exploded" in flight.
First of all, if the Embraer's wing was to slice through the belly of the 737, I would anticipate a large portion of it's wing would also be missing if both aircraft remained in LEVEL FLIGHT as from centre of fueslage to centre point of engine is approx 20ft, and without making an evasive manouever, the 737 engine would have taken a very large chunk of the EMB wing (if not all of it), tail and engine.
Therefore can speculate one of the 2 aircraft were taking evasive action, if this "collision" did actually occur.

Second...if eyewitness reports are accurate about the B737 exploding midair, and travelling 3000' above the EMB, what is to say the EMB wasn't victim to debris falling through it's flightpath causing the substantial yet survivable damage to the EMB (if damage indicated through "reports" are true).

We have to wait for the final investigative reports to determine what actually happened., but these are 2 very probable scenarios.

Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 2

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