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OPNLguy
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Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:43 am

New posts here please.....
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
juventus
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:02 am

My condolences to our Brazilian brothers. GOL is a great airline, they will overcome this tragedy. 2006 has been a bad year for aviation, the accident in Cyprus, then Comair, now this. Maybe the black boxes will tell us what really happen, instead of the press making assumptions.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:03 am

Part 2 link Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 2 (by Mika Sep 30 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Just a little resume:

Gol PR-GTD departed MAO airport friday afternoon at 1430 with ETA at BSB 1810 with 149 passenger plus 6 crew members. PR-GTD was delivered to GOL on September 12, 2006 and keep only 243 flight hours as per GOL informations.

We just don't know exactly what happen, but it SEEMS the plane crashed or has been crashed by a Legacy plane on it's delivery flight SJK-MAO-JFK (or any other point).

The Legacy, damaged, landed in a Brazilian air force base while Gol 737-800 SFP (PR-GTD) crashed into the jungle.

The plane has been found on saturday morning, around 0900 local time.

By the end of saturday, Brazilian time, Infraero and ANAC confirmed no one survived. sad  Sad

Some questions are still unanswered...
1- Why ATC does not saw they are on the same flight level ?
2- Why the TACS does not warned both planes ?

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:05 am

This is what I just posted (at the end) in the most previous thread, so I thought it well to bring it here to the new thread . . .

[Quoting=OyKIE,Reply 12]
I guess it is very plausible that these airplanes have collided with each other [/quote]

Yeah, I think Bushpilot was the 1st one to bring that up in the last thread.

[Quoting=Index2006,Reply 49]
he didn't know why radars hadn't detected [/quote]

I've also read that the TCAS may not have been functioning properly/if at all on one of these a/c . Because that can always invite trouble if that's the case. I hate dispatching a/c w/o things like Wing A/I fail MEL's and the like. TCAS MEL's are another.

[Quoting=Index2006,Reply 49]
The investigations should take ninety days for any answers [/quote]

And hopefully that will provide suitable answers to help prevent anything similiar in the future.

[Quoting=Baron95,Reply 91]
It has to be a fluke like this for 2 TCAS-equiped planes with well trained crews to collide in the flight levels.[/quote]

Yeah, it's horrible to think 2 TCAS-equipped a/c would have this happen. One question I have - were both a/c filed at the same altitude? If that's the case, wouldn't ATC exercise the foreknowledge they would have had to warn both a/c in advance about possible traffic? That (currently) is the matter about which I am most curious. If it was the case (and if the planned airspeeds were already available to ATC in the ATS strips), both a/c may have been warned in advance to expect traffic or to be vectored or receive a different altitude altogether. But this is assuming there was a collision, and, of course, this is speculation (which I believe is harmless, since we are all curious and I am content to wait for the professionals to uncover the facts). I'm just curious about what may have been possible.

[Quoting=OPNLguy,Reply 101]
If the collision (assuming there indeed was one) was anything of a head-on nature, the closure speeds would have been high[/quote]

Yeah, and being in the cockpit jumpseat, hearing that "Warning, warning" from TCAS was evidence that it takes little time for another a/c to be visible and suddenly passing by you at whatever angle. It just makes me more curious about the TCAS angle on this tragic event.

[Quoting=SeeTheWorld,Reply 114]
Quoting 77411 (Reply 109):
Here we go lets blame the Americans. We all know it was a Bush Admin plot to bring down this plane. The pilot of the Legacy was such a great pilot that he was able to, at cruise speed, purposely slice the 737 with his wing and bring it down. I am sure the US press has tons of media personnel stationed in Brazil in the case some crazy American pilot tries to take down another aircraft. Come on man think about it. Arent they on a Military base in the middle of no where. I am sure in time the US media will have the pilot on TV.

Stop it! This is absolutely unncessary.[/quote]

No kidding.

[Quoting=Richierich,Reply 133]
Quoting Lijnden (Reply 131):
Is terrorism a possibility? For example a bomb might have blown off the tail or some other part that would have hit the Legacy? I cannot imagine the butter/knife slicing theory at high speeds.

The truth is that it is always a possibility until it can be ruled out.[/quote]

This is the part I find most valuable in threads like this - bringing up the possibilities without resting in assumptions or making conclusions.

[Quoting=Osiris30,Reply 164]
Right now alot of people are probably focused more on doing than talking, so information doesn't flow as smoothly or accurately. Smart people shut up in these situations and only speak well known factual information.[/quote]

 checkmark 
[Quoting=Index2006,Reply 169]
--The plane left the U.S on 9-11.[/quote]
 banghead 

Edited for grammar.

Edited 2nd time to properly include quotes from the most previous thread.

-R

[Edited 2006-10-01 01:59:09]

[Edited 2006-10-01 02:14:27]
Living the American Dream
 
thering
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:09 am

Here is what I think happened:

While the 737 was flying, a important part of it (wing, estabilizer or tail) crashed and got off the fuselage, this would surely result in a crash of the plane, verticaly, as the Brazilian Authorities are saying.
This part (VERY coincidentally) hit the Legacy, that was flying near there. As the Legacy is much smaller than the Boeing, and i the case of a collision, it would had surely been much more wracked than the Boeing. A collision to a stabilizer for example would make more possible the version of the Legacy that, said the pilot "Hit something that he don't know what is".

This version is much more possible because today, a midair collision, between two modern planes is very unprobable.
People in ground near the local of the crash, said that saw the plane going down fast and with any control, something that would happen if it lost any wing, estabilizer or tail.
146 319 320 321 332 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 742 743 744 762 763 772 773 CRJ ER4 100 F50 F27 M11 D10
 
thering
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:10 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 2):
Some questions are still unanswered...
1- Why ATC does not saw they are on the same flight level ?
2- Why the TACS does not warned both planes ?

My thought would answer this questions right?

What do you think of it Felipe?
146 319 320 321 332 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 742 743 744 762 763 772 773 CRJ ER4 100 F50 F27 M11 D10
 
flyingfool
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:19 am

My heart goes out to all the family's, friends and relatives of the passengers of GOL flight 1907. I pray that they find some survivors...

I will give a very big compliment to GOL on how they handle this sad crisis, very well organized so profesional, I will definitely fly them on my next visit to Brazil!!!

Regards, Flyingfool
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:22 am

Gol changes because of the lost of PR-GTD.

- During october, Gol will reduce the service on shuttle service Rio-São Paulo to release 1 73G. (CONFIRMED)
- PR-GTF (another 737-800 SFP) have been added to the fleet today (CONFIRMED).
- SCL non stop could be postponed for november (to be confirmed).
- MEX could be postponed for january (to be confirmed).

Quoting Thering (Reply 5):
My thought would answer this questions right?

What do you think of it Felipe?

Seems to be possible, but remember it's just a brand new aircraft. I really believe Thering that only with the black boxes we will know exactly what happen.

And if the 738 lost something don't you think they should have conditions to connect the ATC ?
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
PPVRA
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:29 am

Quoting Thering (Reply 4):

I've thought of that also, Thering. But the chances of structural failure in a modern aircraft at cruise is also extremely remote.

It was a new aircraft, so who knows. . . maybe it was faulty from assembly. . . but it's all speculation of which scenario is less extremely unlikely. . .
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
ULMFlyer
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:34 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 3):
I've also read that the TCAS may not have been functioning properly/if at all on one of these a/c . Because that can always invite trouble if that's the case. I hate dispatching a/c w/o things like Wing A/I fail MEL's and the like. TCAS MEL's are another.

According to another poster in the previous thread, flight 1907 left MAO without any issues. Therefore, if what you are saying is true, it should have been the Legacy. Nevertheless, even with one of the aircraft having an inoperable TCAS, one would expect the other one to get a Resolution Advisory.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 2):
Some questions are still unanswered...
1- Why ATC does not saw they are on the same flight level ?
2- Why the TACS does not warned both planes ?

Please note that these aircraft were NOT supposed to be flying at the same flight levels, since they were flying on almost reciprocal courses. As such, GOL 1907 should be at an odd flight level (e.g., FL370) and the Legacy at an even one (e.g. FL360).

Quoting Thering (Reply 5):
My thought would answer this questions right?

This hypothesis that some structural component got loose from the 738 and hit the Legacy has been mentioned by FAB Brigadier General J.C. Pereira, who is the chair of Infraero. It would perhaps explain a lack of RA received by the Legacy crew (if this is indeed the case).
Let's go Pens!
 
Amazonphil
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:39 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 8):
Quoting Thering (Reply 4):


I've thought of that also, Thering. But the chances of structural failure in a modern aircraft at cruise is also extremely remote.

It was a new aircraft, so who knows. . . maybe it was faulty from assembly. . . but it's all speculation of which scenario is less extremely unlikely. . .

The aircraft are so thoroughly tested and inspected at Boeing before delivery, that it's extremely remote that something structural went bad. While it's electrical/electronic components are equally tested and inspected these are more susceptible to things going bad than structural. Trust me, I've been at Boeing to see some of the things that the planes have to go through to pass pre delivery inspection...it would scare you. If any Boeing employees are here on the a.net or this forum, they will concur and possibly add comments.

Rgs

[Edited 2006-10-01 02:40:24]
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clickhappy
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:41 am

did this accident occur in an area of military controlled airspace?
 
DC10Forever
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:41 am

What I have discussed with some friends (Gol´s pilots included) is following: this B737-800 SFP is a very special variant of 737-800 designed for Gol to operate on very short runways (i.e. SDU).

So, by any chance, do you guys believe that what could happened was an explosive decompression of the aircraft caused by this new model ? And then, pieces of the 737 flying above the Legacy hit the bizz jet ? The pilot of the Legacy said (tv reports only) that he doesn´t know what he has hit during the flight and hasn´t seen any 737 coming close to his Legacy.

I remember that is just a speculation, but we may discuss it here on a possibility proposal.

Rgs,

Renato
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PPVRA
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:45 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 11):
did this accident occur in an area of military controlled airspace?

Yes. It's also a brand new (4 years old?) multi-billion dollar system, developed by Lockheed.

[Edited 2006-10-01 02:46:26]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:48 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 3):
The investigations should take ninety days for any answers

And hopefully that will provide suitable answers to help prevent anything similar in the future.[/quote]

And we keep a lot of questions they really need to answer.
I agree with you, need to prevent similar facts in the future. In an accident we need at least to learn.

Felipe
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Mr.BA
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:49 am

According to the latest CNN report it happened in an area of airspace controlled by the military.
Boeing747 万岁!
 
AF454GRU
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:50 am

A very sad day in civil aviation.

Just my condoleances to the passengers and crew's families.
From now all Gol, Brazilian Civil Aviation Authority, Boeing and Embraer must to handle this issue faster in order to explain how it could happened.

R.I.P PR-GTD
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:52 am

what we need are some first hand accounts of the damage on the Legacy, or some pictures.

With regards to the military airspace, could there have been a third aircraft involved, meaning the 737 and the Legacy had to take avoidance? Were the pilots of the Legacy not familiar with the military controllers?

Does anyone know who was on the controls of the Legacy? Company pilots or customer pilots?

Do Brazillian military controllers speak English?

These are the important questions. Saying that a 3-week old plane exploded in mid-air, for no reason, is rubbish. This will be human error, sadly.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:01 am

I think this is a very important piece of information, and as far as I know, the only first hand info we have seen

A reporter for The New York Times, Joe Sharkey, was one of seven people aboard the plane, all of whom were “O.K. but shaken,” according to an e-mail message that Mr. Sharkey sent to his wife, Nancy, an editor at the newspaper.

“No one believes we managed to survive a mid-air collision,” Mr. Sharkey wrote. “Neither of the pilots can understand how a 737 could have hit us without them seeing it,” he added, noting that the smaller plane was “flying stable northwest at 37,000 feet with the sun off the left wing, and a 737 would have been obvious.”


Clearly Joe Sharkey is a veteran airplane writer and was on the Legacy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/01/wo...sh.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin
 
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s.p.a.s.
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:04 am

DC10Forever,

Please note that the difference between the regular -800 and the new SFP variant is limited to minor changes to flaps, slats and spoiler operating logic and the thrust increase from 24K to 27K lbs in each engine.

I do not see how this changes can be related to the crash
"ad astra per aspera"
 
American777
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:18 am

What's the registration on the Embraer Legacy? I don't mean what's the serial number which is 965.

Thanks for the answers.

JOE.  airplane 
 
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s.p.a.s.
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:22 am

Clickhappy,

Just to clarify, Brazil has a very particular way to make ATC, in that civilian (airways, terminal areas) and military airspace is controlled by military personell, with dedicated controllers for the civilian and military parts (i.e. air defense radar control). The controllers that work the civilian traffic do have English knowledge and this route is very often flown by foreing airlines.

Some selected airports are controlled on the CTR/ATZ level by civilians.

According to the reports, the Legacy crew is American, pilots from the customer.
"ad astra per aspera"
 
hoya
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:26 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 17):
These are the important questions. Saying that a 3-week old plane exploded in mid-air, for no reason, is rubbish. This will be human error, sadly.

It is possible for new aircraft to experience structural failure, though thorough testing prior to delivery should have uncovered any problems. Only example that comes to my mind of a new aircraft experiencing structural failure is that brand new 747 freighter that blew open its front cargo door during a pre-delivery pressurization test about a year ago.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 18):
“No one believes we managed to survive a mid-air collision,” Mr. Sharkey wrote. “Neither of the pilots can understand how a 737 could have hit us without them seeing it,” he added, noting that the smaller plane was “flying stable northwest at 37,000 feet with the sun off the left wing, and a 737 would have been obvious.”

So based on this quote, visibility wasn't an issue. It really makes me wonder whether there was a collision at all, but then again, what caused the damage to the Legacy and what caused the brand-new 737 to crash? Seems like we're getting more questions than answers.
Hoya Saxa!!
 
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s.p.a.s.
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:26 am

Quoting S.p.a.s. (Reply 21):
What's the registration on the Embraer Legacy? I don't mean what's the serial number which is 965.

N600XL
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osiris30
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:31 am

Quoting Hoya (Reply 22):
It is possible for new aircraft to experience structural failure, though thorough testing prior to delivery should have uncovered any problems. Only example that comes to my mind of a new aircraft experiencing structural failure is that brand new 747 freighter that blew open its front cargo door during a pre-delivery pressurization test about a year ago.

Thus the reasons for the tests  Smile

It's possible any number of things happened. Without any real details it's all speculation, and speculation of the worst kind. Unlike the the CRJ incident in LEX, where there was a fairly obvious cause this one is a little more confusing, and I'm waiting on some information to come out before I speculate.

There could be (nearly) literally a million reasons here.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
index2006
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:36 am

Quoting S.p.a.s. (Reply 19):
800 and the new SFP variant is limited to minor changes to flaps, slats and spoiler operating logic and the thrust increase from 24K to 27K lbs in each engine.

--I'm afraid that comment reminds me of another brand new Boeing 737-400 at the time(1980's) operated by British Midland which had their air conditioning altered from one engine to the other but Boeing failed to make it known for the pilots who in turn took it for granted(the 400's series) as it was in the 300's version. The result was an engine on fire and subsequently mismatches and misunderstandings ending up downhill in a crash(long technical detailed knowledge base).
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:39 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 17):
With regards to the military airspace, could there have been a third aircraft involved, meaning the 737 and the Legacy had to take avoidance? Were the pilots of the Legacy not familiar with the military controllers?

I doubt because Brazilian Air Force does not use jets on such Amazon bases. They are based on Rio, Brasilia, Manaus and Canoas (south of Brazil). They use Super Tucanos.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 17):
Does anyone know who was on the controls of the Legacy? Company pilots or customer pilots?

Informed by brazilian media, an embraer pilot.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 17):
Do Brazillian military controllers speak English?

Yes, they speak, but some could be not fluently. Normally control over the north area is made by BSB center (Cindacta 4).



Quoting American777 (Reply 20):
What's the registration on the Embraer Legacy? I don't mean what's the serial number which is 965.

Joe, there is a video of the Legacy departure available on Globo Media Center http://gmc.globo.com. It's the fourth on " Queda do voo 1907 .. " (on top)

Felipe
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ULMFlyer
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:45 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 18):
“No one believes we managed to survive a mid-air collision,” Mr. Sharkey wrote. “Neither of the pilots can understand how a 737 could have hit us without them seeing it,” he added, noting that the smaller plane was “flying stable northwest at 37,000 feet with the sun off the left wing, and a 737 would have been obvious.”

Maybe there is a mistake here, so I'm going to ask the heavy iron drivers to chip in. I thought Brazil implemented RVSM in 2005. In that case, the Legacy couldn't be at FL370, since she was tracking NW, right? She should be at FL360 or 380. If RVSM is not valid for that area, then she should be at FL350 or 390. FL370 should be reserved for aircraft tracking from 000 to 179 degrees (with or w/o RSVM), i.e., GOL 1907.

Or am I completely mistaken?
Let's go Pens!
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:49 am

Only example that comes to my mind of a new aircraft experiencing structural failure is that brand new 747 freighter that blew open its front cargo door during a pre-delivery pressurization test about a year ago.

You just proved my point. The accident you describe, about 8 months ago, was the result of an error by the result of a Boeing employee, not a problem with the 747 airframe.
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:50 am

Quoting Index2006 (Reply 25):
I'm afraid that comment reminds me of another brand new Boeing 737-400 at the time(1980's) operated by British Midland which had their air conditioning altered from one engine to the other

You mean this one?
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19890108-0&lang=en
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Amazonphil
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:58 am

Quoting Hoya (Reply 22):
Only example that comes to my mind of a new aircraft experiencing structural failure is that brand new 747 freighter that blew open its front cargo door during a pre-delivery pressurization test about a year ago.

While I agree with you that these pre-delivery failures do happen, the cargo door coming off isn't really a hard structural failure. I believe the 747 would have been able to return for landing(had it been flying) However, there was the one DC-10 (Turkish airlines, or LTU??? can't remember) that crashed years ago due to the rear bin 5 cargo door coming open in flight because of the latching mechanism but the cargo door itself coming off wasn't what made it crash...it was the structure in the ceiling above that collapsed due to depressurization and caused other damages that caused the aircraft to go out of control. Had the structure remained intact, they would have landed as well...just like your 747 example.

I would believe that hard structure failure would involve a wing spar, wing root, control surfaces..ie..the horiz/vert. stabilizers..(the AA A300 flt.587 in NY is an example) would be more of a true structural failure. At CO, when we consult the maint/manual under structures (for doing structural repairs) this doesn't include the doors...that is under another section of the manual.

Rgs

[Edited 2006-10-01 04:00:09]
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PPVRA
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:01 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 26):

Informed by brazilian media, an embraer pilot.

Lipe, reports of the Brazilian pilot that I have read did not mention whether he was in control of the aircraft at that time. Other reports, however, have stated that the aircraft was being flown by an american crew.

In any case, it makes little difference. At least the co-pilot would have to be american.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 28):
You just proved my point. The accident you describe, about 8 months ago, was the result of an error by the result of a Boeing employee, not a problem with the 747 airframe.

That's exactly what was proposed: an error. It could be design (a la the rudder problems), but I think it's unlikely given the safety record of the NGs.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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s.p.a.s.
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:04 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 28):
Or am I completely mistaken?

No.. you are not

The Gol flight was on an odd FL (FL370 according it was said during the press conference) and so the Legacy was probably (should have been) on FL360 or FL340

Cheers
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OPNLguy
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:08 am

For whatever it's worth, I just saw this over on pprune. Not endorsing or discounting it either either way, just presenting another piece of buzz out there.....
---------------

"News" is beginning to seep out. On a local aviation forum there's the following (free translation):

According to a CAB specialist the American Legacy pilot said, during the post-accident debrief, that he'd decided to climb from FL370 to FL390 to gain speed and range, without informing ATC, and that he'd switched off the transponder (for reasons unknown). That would have impeded the 737's TCAS from reacting to the Legacy's presence and delayed ATC's warning that a collision was imminent since, with the transponder off there would be a lag for radar to correctly track the Legacy.

Please note, a very free translation, picked up second-hand. The original text follows for any who might care to dispute it:

Quote
Segundo um especialista da Aeronautica, no depoimento, o piloto americano do Legacy disse que teria decidido subir do FL370 para FL390 para ganhar autonomia e velocidade e não teria avisado o controle da força aérea e também desligou o transponder (motivo desconhecido), impedindo assim que o TCAS do avião da Gol funcionasse e que os controladores pudessem avisá-lo com antecedência do choque iminente, visto que com o transponder desligado o radar demora para obter informações da aeronave.
Unquote
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
redflyer
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:08 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 17):
what we need are some first hand accounts of the damage on the Legacy, or some pictures.

I don't understand why, after almost 24 hours, so little information is available. I mean, all the major news outlets aren't able to say definitively whether or not it was a collision between the Legacy and the GOL plane. I realize the GOL went down in heavy jungle and information is lacking on it, but what about the Legacy? Why hasn't anyone stepped forward to say "yes, it has damage that is consistent with collision with a foreign object"?

Quoting Index2006 (Reply 25):
--I'm afraid that comment reminds me of another brand new Boeing 737-400 at the time(1980's) operated by British Midland which had their air conditioning altered from one engine to the other but Boeing failed to make it known for the pilots who in turn took it for granted(the 400's series) as it was in the 300's version.

Actually, Boeing did not fail to make it known for the pilots or any other operator. The British Midland pilots (in particular the captain), had not undergone sufficient training to be made aware of the change from the 737-200 (not -300) to the -300/-400.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
AVLnative
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:09 am

To ULMFlyer (Reply 27)

I think that early in the story it was said that the 737 was supposed to be at FL360 and the Legacy at FL330.
 
index2006
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:38 pm

RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:12 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 33):
Please note, a very free translation

--The translation is correct.
 
index2006
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:17 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 34):
fail to make it known for the pilots or any other operator

--Sorry but I've learnt it from English sources and Eng. Dept.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:18 am

come on, he (she?) free climbs 2,000 feet AND swtiches off the Transponder?

Seems unbelievable.
 
virgin747
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:30 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 38):
come on, he (she?) free climbs 2,000 feet AND swtiches off the Transponder?

Seems unbelievable.

Hey I believed in the embrarer being a drug plane from the first thread....
 
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s.p.a.s.
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:45 am

Most of Gol's flights operate with RPL, this is the line for GLO1907

1234567 GLO1907 B738/M SBEG1830 N0450 410 UZ6 NABOL UZ6 SBBR0230 EET/SBBS0205 EQPT/W

Seems that yesterday they decided to fly two levels lower than the filed.
"ad astra per aspera"
 
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zeke
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:48 am

Quoting Virgin747 (Reply 39):
Hey I believed in the embrarer being a drug plane from the first thread....

The Legacy had New York Times reporter Joe Sharkey onboard.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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s.p.a.s.
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:52 am

The names of the Legacy occupants have just been made public by the local media, all Americans.
"ad astra per aspera"
 
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zeke
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:56 am

Accident site photos have been uploaded on the Departamento de Aviação Civil (DAC Brazil) site

http://www.dac.gov.br/salanoticias/noticiasGol.asp

http://www.dac.gov.br/salanoticias/fotos/acidenteGOL1.jpg

http://www.dac.gov.br/salanoticias/fotos/acidenteGOL2.jpg

http://www.dac.gov.br/salanoticias/fotos/acidenteGOL3.jpg

Very strange impact, and no sign of fire.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
KLM685
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:05 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 43):
Very strange impact, and no sign of fire.

Precisely my thought some moments ago. If there was a crash for sure there was fire, and all trees look pretty healthy to me. Or probably the tree height and the jungle humidity helped turn if off.
KLM- The Best Airline in the World!
 
PPVRA
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:08 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 43):

Very strange impact, and no sign of fire.

Very, very humid area. Those trees don't burn easily (not you average pine tree you have in N. America). It's consistent with other crashes in the basin.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
index2006
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:38 pm

RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:15 pm

Quoting S.P.A.S. (Reply 42):
The names of the Legacy occupants have just been made public by the local media, all Americans

There are seven occupants:Henry Yendle, Jan Palldino, Ralph Michielli, Joe Sharkey (jornalista do "The New York Times", que estava escrevendo uma reportagem sobre viagem), David Rimmer, Joe Lepore e Daniel Bachmann.
 
T prop
Posts: 975
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 4:33 pm

RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part

Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:16 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 33):
According to a CAB specialist the American Legacy pilot said, during the post-accident debrief, that he'd decided to climb from FL370 to FL390 to gain speed and range, without informing ATC, and that he'd switched off the transponder

I hope that's not true. If the Embraers xponder was turned off it would not show up on the Boeings TCAS.  Sad

T prop.
 
airbrasil
Posts: 202
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:12 am

RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:16 pm

Amazing photos.. very sad!
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8590
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:26 pm

Quoting T prop (Reply 47):
Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 33):
According to a CAB specialist the American Legacy pilot said, during the post-accident debrief, that he'd decided to climb from FL370 to FL390 to gain speed and range, without informing ATC, and that he'd switched off the transponder

I hope that's not true. If the Embraers xponder was turned off it would not show up on the Boeings TCAS. Sad

But would it have shown on the Legacy TCAS?
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat

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