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curlyheadboy
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:23 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 99):
Th TK in paris?? there was a fire i believe...small..

Yes, that one, IIRC there was little or no fire, the forest shattered the airplane and there was no crater. Though, in that case the impact occurred at a nose-up (17 degrees) attitude, at a speed exceeding 400 kts, but not in a dive. The wreck was scattered but not so concentrated in a small area.

Edited wrong data.

[Edited 2006-10-01 15:25:28]
If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
 
harrisair
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:24 pm

I may be way off here, but I am beginning to wonder if the Embraer crew spotted the 737 in flight and got up close so their pax could check it out???
Is that a possibility at all?

harris
 
famfmarques
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:31 pm

The Estado newspaper informs that a source inside the brazilian Aeronautica believes that the Gol plane may have desintegrated before crash (lost pieces while still flying). Apparently they found smaller pieces spread among a larger area and not concentrated, as initially thought. This is the link (in portuguese only):

http://www.estadao.com.br/ultimas/cidades/noticias/2006/out/01/2.htm
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:38 pm

What a terrible tragedy! My prayers and deepest condolences are offered to all those affected by this monumental loss.

God rest the souls of those whose lives were taken in this horrible event.

[Edited 2006-10-01 15:53:01]
What's fair is fair.
 
Oykie
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:44 pm

Quoting Famfmarques (Reply 103):
The Estado newspaper informs that a source inside the brazilian Aeronautica believes that the Gol plane may have desintegrated before crash (lost pieces while still flying). Apparently they found smaller pieces spread among a larger area and not concentrated, as initially thought. This is the link (in portuguese only):

If Babelfish worked as it should, then the theory in this article suggests that the wing of the Legacy has razor-cut the Boeing airplane, and that it began disintegrating before impact? Have I understood the article correctly?

Anyway, time will tell how this tragic event has played out.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
hiflyer
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:04 pm

1 Both flights were in Brazilian Military controlled airspace...not civilian control
2 The EMB landed at a Brazilian Military base
3 There has been no information specific to the cause of the crash released by the Brazilian Military.
 
Mr.BA
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:23 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 87):
Now as far as how the aircraft got there...I don't think there was a collision at all...i know the reports are all confirmed apparently that the EMB plane hit and all, but the ODDS and it is FREAKY that the odds that the two would hit in such a way, that the EMB survived and the 737 didn't....well im just shaking my head now...those people were DAMN unlucky to be on that flight if they really did clip....

I agree I'd find it really unbelievable if that's really what happened. Just what are the odds at collinsion could the EMB being able to continue to fly and land safely with the B737 ending up this way.
Boeing747 万岁!
 
BA787
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:33 pm

May all the soles on board rest in peace
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:47 pm

Quoting Mr.BA (Reply 107):
I agree I'd find it really unbelievable if that's really what happened. Just what are the odds at collinsion could the EMB being able to continue to fly and land safely with the B737 ending up this way.

Wow! I just think the opposite. Two planes in the same area, one crashes, the other performs emergency landing with damage. It seems to me that the most likely situation is that they came into contact with one another. How that happened and the way that it happened is the part we don't know about.

This reminds me of the LEX crash where many were saying initially there was no way this plane took off from the wrong runway despite the fact that the plane was burning 1,000 feet of the edge of the wrong runway. It seemed pretty clear almost immediately that the plane took off from the wrong runway.

It seems clear to me that, most likely, these two planes came in contact with one another.
 
awthompson
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:48 pm

I would like to clear up a confusion following the crash site photographs for those who have not noticed.

ALL THREE are the SAME area. The middle photo is the wide angle one and the other two are different parts of the same wide angle shot BUT zoomed in.

The area covered in the third photo is difficult to find in the wide angle shot as it is highly zoomed in. If you cannot find it, ask me and I will explain.
 
famfmarques
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 105):

In fact it does not suggest that. It mentions that officials are considering that as a cause.
 
David L
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:10 am

Quoting HarrisAir (Reply 102):
I am beginning to wonder if the Embraer crew spotted the 737 in flight and got up close so their pax could check it out???

Weren't they flying in opposite directions?
 
dab920
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:20 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 97):
Is there any truth to the rumor that the pilots of the Legacy have been arrested or detained?

Would not surprise me. It is standard practise in many countries for the pilots to be arrested or detained by the authorities until there are details about what happened, whether they are innocent or not. In some cases this can potentially take a few weeks until the authorities are satisfied enough to release the crew.
 
MERLIN
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:27 am

R.I.P to all the people ..
"Aviation & Black hole carry same effect,once any where near it you're bound to get sucked in".
 
Alessandro
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:27 am

Quoting T prop (Reply 47):



Quoting T prop (Reply 47):
According to a CAB specialist the American Legacy pilot said, during the post-accident debrief, that he'd decided to climb from FL370 to FL390 to gain speed and range, without informing ATC, and that he'd switched off the transponder

I hope that's not true. If the Embraers xponder was turned off it would not show up on the Boeings TCAS.

T prop.

So why should the pilot be able to turn off the transponder?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
PPVRA
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part

Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 58):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 45):
Very, very humid area. Those trees don't burn easily (not you average pine tree you have in N. America). It's consistent with other crashes in the basin.

The aircraft should have at least 4-5t of fuel onboard, no fire is an indication of no fuel and it would have exploded on impact.

That is consistent with preliminary witness reports that it exploded midair.

Airforce does not believe in a nose dive because they should have had enough fuel to get to BSB and then to GIG (3t)

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 87):
What is also important is, what time did this happen? was it VMC day/night?

Day. The reporter stated that "the sun was above the left wing."

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 92):
One issue as to the lack of communication by the Legacy pilots and pax could be that they are under arrest or detention until a preliminary investigation is done.



Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 97):
Is there any truth to the rumor that the pilots of the Legacy have been arrested or detained?

No. They were asked to stay to assist with the investigation, but not forced to.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 94):
does Brazil have the capability to review the black boxes or do they have to be sent out of the country and have they said when their contents will be released?

I do not know, but I don't see why not. In case they are too damaged, however, it's common practice to send them back to the manufacturer to try to get as much data as possible (if any).
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
khobar
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:49 am

Pardon me if I missed mention of this, but was any radio transmission - mayday, etc. - received from the 737?
 
kaneporta1
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 117):
Pardon me if I missed mention of this, but was any radio transmission - mayday, etc. - received from the 737?

Exactly what I was wondering about. Could there be a possibility of a Helios accident repeat?
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
EMBQA
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:57 am

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 80):
May be the FMS told him that he can not reach New York with the flight level what he is flying and this is the reason why he initiated the climb to gain a few more miles in range to avoid a fuel stop ?

The Legacy can't go that far non-stop. The normal delivery flight to the US is San Jos de Campos to the northern coast of Brazil... then on to FLL. Shoot.. the leg to FLL is close to 10 hours.

[Edited 2006-10-01 18:05:34]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
F9Animal
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part

Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:00 am

Quoting David L (Reply 88):
Unless the crew was too heavily involved in dealing with the situation. Communication takes a back seat to trying to keep the aircraft flying. I know communication would seem to be a "sensible" thing from here if the aircraft is heading for a remote part of the jungle but it might be difficult to think about that when the alternative is to fight to control the aircraft.



Quoting OyKIE (Reply 86):
If we assume that there was a midair collision, why was not the GOL pilots capable of sending out a mayday call? If the Legacy simply clipped the vertical stabiliser, then the GOL pilots should have been able to send out some emergency call. So this indicates that the pilots either lost communication way before the plane hit the ground, or something worse have happened to the pilots. I am not thinking about terror, but about the possibility that the plane exploded/desintegrated mid air. By the way, did this GOL airplane have the new rear flat bulk, which is being developed for the 737-900ER?

Who knows, I would not be surprised if they got off an emergency distress call. It seems as though many questions will go unanswered for some time, as there appears to be pure confusion at this point. They speculated the plane had crashed at 310 mph, before the wreckage was even found, the night the plane was reported missing. Who got that info, and how did they get it? Somebody gave it to the media.

Is it me, or is this whole crash being handled poorly? I could not imagine the family members feelings and emotions at this point. I don't know, but the information we keep getting is conflicting, and confusing. I know there is no standard way of handling a crash, but this is the way the US airlines handled crashes before CARE teams were introduced. I feel awful for the loss brazil faces, and I mean no disrespect whatsoever.

Have any pics come out of the legacy yet?
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
flyprivate
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:06 am

could this plane have been shot down by accident over military airspace, and a piece of the plane hit the embraer on the way down? i cant imagine two planes flying at 400 knots, colliding, and the smaller one landing..even the smallest impact at that speed can be devastating..i really hope the truth comes out
 
EMBQA
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:29 am

Quoting FlyPrivate (Reply 121):
could this plane have been shot down by accident over military airspace

It was not flying over military airspace, it was flying over the Amazon.... a big nothing..!!
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
David L
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:32 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 120):
Is it me, or is this whole crash being handled poorly? I could not imagine the family members feelings and emotions at this point. I don't know, but the information we keep getting is conflicting, and confusing.

But we're looking for different information from the friends and family of the victims. I'm sure their concern at this point is simply whether their loved ones made it or not rather than the technicalities. It's also going to take time to confirm those who did or did not survive due to the location of the crash. If you find a survivor/victim you know their fate while the fate of those not found remains unknown.

Quoting FlyPrivate (Reply 121):
could this plane have been shot down by accident over military airspace, and a piece of the plane hit the embraer on the way down?

Um...

Quoting FlyPrivate (Reply 121):
i cant imagine two planes flying at 400 knots, colliding, and the smaller one landing..even the smallest impact at that speed can be devastating.

It sounds much more likely than your first idea.

OK, I'll amend my previous claim. The bomb theory and the shoot-down theory often surface any time there's a crash that's initiated at altitude.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:33 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 94):
does Brazil have the capability to review the black boxes or do they have to be sent out of the country and have they said when their contents will be released?

Yes, Legacy black box was sent today to SJK to ITA (Technological Aerospacial Institute).

Quoting David L (Reply 112):
Weren't they flying in opposite directions?

Yes David, the Legacy from SJK to MAO and Gol 1907 from MAO to BSB.

Quoting Khobar (Reply 117):
Pardon me if I missed mention of this, but was any radio transmission - mayday, etc. - received from the 737?

Gol Press Conference yesterday states that they lost contact with flight 1907 only. Last contact was at 17h00. Even Air Force, ANAC and Infraero doesn't say anything concerning to a mayday request.

Does anyone knows if Boeing 738 communications could be damaged by a collision ? There is a contingency ?

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 120):
Have any pics come out of the legacy yet?

No one picture from the Legacy yet. The Legacy remains on Brazilian Air Force base, and the air space is still restricted for civil aviation.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
David L
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 124):
Quoting David L (Reply 112):
Weren't they flying in opposite directions?

Yes David, the Legacy from SJK to MAO and Gol 1907 from MAO to BSB.

It was meant to be rhetorical, i.e. there's no way the Legacy pilot saw the 737 and decided to "go and take a look".

But thanks for the confirmation.  Smile
 
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United787
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 43):
Very strange impact, and no sign of fire.

Look at the top picture again, I am not convinced that there wasn't a fire of some sort.

Why do so many people have a hard time believing that there was a mid-air collision just because the Legacy survived and the 737 didn't. As stated in Part 2, these kind of things are all bad luck. It is very possible that the Legacy impacted the 737 in a place that was fatal for the 737 and not for the Legacy. The perfect combination of "The wrong place at the wrong time".

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a chain of events like the collision caused some kind of rapid catastrophic decompression of the 737 that resulted in major structural failure of the 737 that may have resulted in a mid-air explosion of some kind.

Maybe the wing of the Legacy brushed the nose (cockpit) of the 737 which might explain a couple of things: minor damage to the Legacy; the Legacy not seeing the 737; and detrimental damage to the 737.

I think anything is possible with the knowledge we have at this point.
 
EMA747
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part

Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 126):
Maybe the wing of the Legacy brushed the nose (cockpit) of the 737 which might explain a couple of things: minor damage to the Legacy; the Legacy not seeing the 737; and detrimental damage to the 737.

Maybe also why there was no mayday, though I think I am right in saying we don't know if there was or wasnt a mayday call made.

If the pilots were killed in the impact then that could explain why the 738 crashed. Even if there was only minor damage structurally, with no pilots it would crash.

[Edited 2006-10-01 19:24:45]
Failing doesn’t make you a failure. Giving up and refusing to try again does!
 
mandala499
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:32 am

Well, if the TCASes were on, I have serious doubts they had a "simple collision"... After thinking about it, with what limited info there is, it's either a third object, or catastrophic but selective structural deterioration of the 738, some debris of which, was struck by the Legacy... Anything more than this (like my previous post, is of course, speculation) and I'd rather wait for more details. Looks like we've exhausted every possible alternative from the plausible to the outrageous based on the limited info...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
PPVRA
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:44 am

One would-be passanger on G3 1907 changed his reservation before the flight, it was his second time avoiding a crash. The other flight he decided to change was a RICO EMB-120 in 2004. His dad, who passed away this year at 69, also survived a crash when he was in his mid 30s.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 116):

Airforce does not believe in a nose dive because they should have had enough fuel to get to BSB and then to GIG (3t)

By that I meant that there should have been an explosion on impact.

I should note that the pictures are consistent with other crashes but I do not think those other accidents (the RICO flight mentioned above and another one) exploded on impact.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
cfm-56
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:54 am

http://www.dac.gov.br/salanoticias/fotos/legacy2_fab.jpg

Seems incredible to believe that this damage actually sliced open a 737.

[Edited 2006-10-01 19:58:08]
 
airbrasil
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:02 am

Hello just wanted to post the photo here amazing....

Airbrasil


http://www.dac.gov.br/salanoticias/fotos/legacy1_fab.jpg
http://www.dac.gov.br/salanoticias/fotos/legacy2_fab.jpg
http://www.dac.gov.br/salanoticias/fotos/legacy3_fab.jpg
http://www.dac.gov.br/salanoticias/fotos/legacy4_fab.jpg
 
hoya
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:12 am

Wow, I was expecting more damage to the Legacy. How much is vissing from the vertical stabilizer? About a foot, or less? The pictures to me seem to lead towards more questions than answers.
Hoya Saxa!!
 
curlyheadboy
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:19 am

Visible damage looks minor, if they clipped the 737 must have been hit in a very vital part...
If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:19 am

Great pictures, thank you for sharing.

I agree with Hoya, nothing is clear from looking at these...

Could the GOL 737 clipped the Legacy (or vice-versa) and a 'radical' manouver from the GOL crew resulted in the Boeing departing controlled flight? The mid-air equivalent of "over correcting" a slide in your car?
 
express1
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:20 am

I cant believe it either,looking at the damage of the ERJ, "very little", and yet the Gol B738 crashed.

dave
David.S cavanagh since 1961,if you can do better,then show me.
 
curlyheadboy
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:26 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 134):
Could the GOL 737 clipped the Legacy (or vice-versa) and a 'radical' manouver from the GOL crew resulted in the Boeing departing controlled flight? The mid-air equivalent of "over correcting" a slide in your car?

Pure speculation but I think that's a good point, could the 737 pilot have done a manouver that exceeded the structural limits of the aircraft or the flight envelope? is this possible on the 737NGs?
If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
 
EMBQA
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting Hoya (Reply 132):
How much is vissing from the vertical stabilizer? About a foot, or less?

Nothing is missing from the vertical stabilizer. Looking at the picture, 80% of the winglet is gone and the horizontal and elevator tips are damaged with maybe 4" missing. Another 8" or so inboard and both aircraft would have been lost.

[Edited 2006-10-01 20:31:57]

[Edited 2006-10-01 20:36:28]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:28 am

The first thing that comes to mind looking at these damage photos of the Legacy (considering the geometry relative to the supposed flight paths of the two aircraft) is that the Legacy's left winglet might have impacted the 738's left wing and/or left horizontal stabilizer.

Although the wing does indeed contain a fuel tank, it doesn't go all the way outboard to the wingtip, so a strike on the 738 wing doesn't automatically mean a fuel tank breach and possible fire.

A hit on the horizontal stabilizer could be more problematic, and also involve the APU and aft pressure bulkhead.

It's going to be interesting to watch the recovery and investigative efforts unfold over the upcoming days and weeks, and especially what pieces of wreckage they find, and exactly where they find them...

The pictures also underscore something I mentioned ealier with respect to the bizjet/glider mid-air near RNO a few weeks ago, namely, but for the apparent lack of a few feet, they might have missed each other completely, while concurrently setting a world record for the closest near mid-air collision...

Luck of the draw...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:35 am

After seeing these pictures I am having serious doubt that the Legacy collided with the GOL 737-800 as the damage to both frames should have been relatively minor IMO, judging from the damage the Legacy recieved. As the damage on the Legacy is all on the left hand side, it only leaves two options where they could have hit the 738:

- Right belly forward, with the Legacy diving under the 738. Assuming that the winglet hit the forward part of the 738, the damage to the horizontal stabilizer is extremly small when the 738 is moving at the same time with over 800 kph. It could however have resulted in depressurization of the 738. In addition the Winglet might have hit th flight deck, but IMO the winglet should not have been able to move through the whole flight deck, leaving at least one crew member in the position to fly the 738.

- Left belly aftward, with the Legacy diving under the 738. However, except for depressurization, where could the winglet have hit the 738 in such a way that it terminally damaged the plane?

In addition, judging from the angle of the Legacy must have been flying when hitting the GOL 738 (IF this was indeed the case, what I still doubt), both the GOL and the Legacy crew must have been able to see the other plane.

The more info is released, the stranger this crash gets...

[Edited 2006-10-01 20:43:52]
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A359, A380,AT4,AT7,B712, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B752/3, B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,... 330.860 miles and counting.
 
Jan Mogren
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:42 am

Cockpit windows are very often covered in cruise by shade panels or even non-see thru material like magazines, maps or what are available to block the sun.
It's not strange IF they didn't see each other.

IF the stabilizer was damaged, it is likely the 737 made a brutal nose down.
Sitting in the cockpit, sipping on a coffee and seeing nothing but suddenly being in a negative g bunt earthwards I am not surprised they didn't make a radio call. They had other things to think about.

/JM
AeroPresentation - Airline DVD's filmed in High Definition
 
N754PR
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:45 am

Wow, the people on that Legacy are VERY, VERY lucky to still be alive!!

People are saying the damage is too minor to have caused the 737 to crash... well if the Legacy hit the cockpit section or the rudder that I think / assume / guess would cause some VERY, VERY serious control issues for the 737.
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
DC10Forever
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Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:25 pm

RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:54 am

That´s why I believe that the Legacy did not hit the Boeing and some part of the Boeing in fact hit the Legacy.
Better one flying than two grounded
 
famfmarques
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:50 am

RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:58 am

It´s amazing how the Embraer is almost intact. I mean, it looks like it could fly again in no time, just after some work. This pictures raises more questions than answers...
 
awthompson
Posts: 526
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 9:59 pm

RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:08 am

Remarkably, the animation which was shown on Globo news shows exactly the left winglet and possibly the horizontal stabiliser impacting the 737 - fully consistent with the photographs of the damaged Legacy shown above in reply 131.

I am not sure how to post a link here but if you type this address and wait, it should come up:

http://gmc.globo.com/GMC/1,,2465-p-M549154,00.html

It is interesting that this was shown so soon after the crash and was discounted as pure speculation, however it is perhaps closer to the truth than all might realise. The media who produced this must have had much more information from the Legacy pilots than has been available in these forums.

In the animation, the Legacy is head on to the 737 and attempts a late avoidance turn to the right. The left winglet scrapes the underneath of the 737 fuselage and perhaps the left horizontal stabiliser hits the port engine of the 737.

In any case it is all speculation but it is worth viewing at this point.

I feel that perhaps the truth is closer to what happened in the DC-9 / Trident mid air collision over Yugoslavia many years ago where the wing tip of the DC-9 hit the cockpit of the Trident with obvous consequences.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting Awthompson (Reply 144):
Remarkably, the animation which was shown on Globo news shows exactly the left winglet and possibly the horizontal stabiliser impacting the 737 - fully consistent with the photographs of the damaged Legacy shown above in reply 131.

I am not sure how to post a link here but if you type this address and wait, it should come up:

http://gmc.globo.com/GMC/1,,2465-p-M549154,00.html

It is interesting that this was shown so soon after the crash and was discounted as pure speculation, however it is perhaps closer to the truth than all might realise. The media who produced this must have had much more information from the Legacy pilots than has been available in these forums.

In the animation, the Legacy is head on to the 737 and attempts a late avoidance turn to the right. The left winglet scrapes the underneath of the 737 fuselage and perhaps the left horizontal stabiliser hits the port engine of the 737.

In any case it is all speculation but it is worth viewing at this point.

it is a very interesting graphic - but is it just me or does the 737-800 in the graphic looks very much like a 767 ?
 
sevenair
Posts: 3007
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 138):
and also involve the APU and aft pressure bulkhead

I can't see much of an issue with the APU as its normally only used during ground ops and slowflight. A breach of the aft bulkhead would be serious - that it was started the chain of events which lead to the JAL 123 crash.

One of the more feasible theories I beleve is that is the left wing of the Legacy sliced through the left hand horizontal stabaliser. I really can't think of a way a large jet can be fatally wounded by what is quite a frangible part of another much smaller aircraft, and for the smaller plane to survive.
 
JAM747
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:17 am

RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 134):
Could the GOL 737 clipped the Legacy (or vice-versa) and a 'radical' manouver from the GOL crew resulted in the Boeing departing controlled flight? The mid-air equivalent of "over correcting" a slide in your car?

Good point. I also wonder IF the 737 was was on autopilot how would it react if it made a contact like this with another aircraft? Maybe a pilot could answer this? Would the autopilot dis-connect and require the pilots to gain control? Also even though the damage from the Legacy seems less than we would thought it would, could the contact with 737 be like a 'razor' cut. small and thin but enough to cause the 737 to experience rapid decompression?
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:41 am

Quoting Sevenair (Reply 146):
I can't see much of an issue with the APU as its normally only used during ground ops and slowflight.

True, but my comment wasn't in the context of its normal use. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that an impact to it could have had secondary effects like cutting a fuel line, fire, etc. Likewise, the aft pressure bulkhead possibly being breached (to whatever degree) and subsequent depressurization would have been just that much more for the crew to deal with, in addition to controlling the aircraft..
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Jj
Posts: 1189
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:43 am

But if the accident had happened in a way such as the one the animation suggests, the Legacy pilots should have been able to see the 737. I don't know, it's just very strange that the embraer got damaged so little. At first I didn't want to believe it, but the more I learn about this thing, the more I believe those theories that the legacy was hit by a part of the 737 rather than by the plane itself...
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 139):
In addition, judging from the angle of the Legacy must have been flying when hitting the GOL 738 (IF this was indeed the case, what I still doubt), both the GOL and the Legacy crew must have been able to see the other plane.

The more info is released, the stranger this crash gets...

Agree, and now it's clear to me that only PR-GTD black box will help us to find out what happen. Up to this moment ANAC inform they won't find the black box.

In the possibility of some part of Flight 1907 hit the Legacy, i doubt the damage was only what we see. After hit the winglet it could also be directed to the cabin and to the engines.

Other parts could be hit, as wings or engines, on Gol 1907.

Felipe
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