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Vimanav
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:49 am

While the Legacy's escape was nothing short of providential, there are several possible scenarios some of which have already been discussed above. But I do not find it strange that the Legacy escaped relatively unscathed (except for the lost winglet) while the 737 was totally destroyed. Like many have stated, its purely the luck of the draw.

Looking at the pictures, a possibility could be that the winglet of the Legacy struck an engine on the 737 which in turn detached and could have been flung back over the wing, going on to strike the vertical/horizontal stabilizers and destroying them. All modern jet engines are designed in a manner that in the event of a fire or such other calamity the engines can simply break off at the pylons without causing too much structural damage to the wing. Hence the utterly solid impact of a winglet at a combined speed of about 900kts could well have torn the engine out of its pylon.

Why I speculate on this is because this was exactly what happened in the mid-air collision between the B747 and IL76 near Delhi in 1996. The tail of the Ilyushin clipped one of the 747's engines which then detached upwards and over the wing, going onto strike the tail and thereby causing the 747 to lose all control and plunge into the ground. In case just the vertical stab was lost a crash though inevitable could have been somewhat delayed. This can also be gauged from the JL crash in 1985. Without the fin, the aircraft stayed airborne for time enough for several passengers to write farewell notes to loved ones, however during this period the aircraft's flight path was extremely awry, decribed as "phugoidal motion" - basically akin to a very, very drunk elephant. In case of the GOL B737 however it does not appear to have flown for a significant length of time after the strike which means that maybe the (my conjectured) engine strike on the tail probably damaged or blew off the vertical and horizontal stabs as well as ruptured the rear pressure bulk head leading to explosive decompression and a crash all in a very short span of time.

But again this is just another angle, purely from my perspective.

Every aircrash makes me feel terrible, but this one in particular has made me extremely sad. May they all rest in peace. And PR-GTD may you fly on for ever in Airplane Valhalla.

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
famfmarques
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:52 am

I wonder: IF the american pilot did turn the transponder off and went to a different altitude without clearence and IF that was the reason of the collision that eventually crashed the Boeing, what are the penalties he'd be facing here in Brasil?

Also, I read that the ground controllers tried to contact the Legacy´s pilot to warn him he was in a collision route with a Boeing. Apparantly they tried to contact for a couple of minutes (that´s in today´s Estado newspaper, But I only have the hardcopy, did not find the digital version to link here). IF this is true, after some time shouldn´t the ground controllers warn the Boeing pilot about that? (hey, we tried to warn this bird in collision course with you with no success, so you´d better get out of there!!....) ??
 
RIXrat
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:53 am

The Biblical alegory of David vs. Goliath is to be hit where it hurts and causes fatal damage.

If, indeed, the Legacy's winglet sliced into the tender underbelly of the 738 causing decompression of the GOL aircraft and then damaged the horizontal stabilizer on the way out, it could have caused massive confusion amongst the GOL pilots.

First, the decompression at FL360 or 370 to get the 02 masks on post haste and then serious control problems if their horizontal stabilizer was damaged.

Like someone said, they were probably drinking coffee on a routine flight, when in a nanosecond -- that's probably all it lasted -- they found themselves plunging not according to the flight plan and not knowing why.
 
DeC
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:54 am

Quoting Jj (Reply 149):

The minimal damage on the embraer and the fact that none of the pilots actually saw the 737, make me think that this could be possible indeed. Of course it would require an unbelievable synchronization for the embraer to be hit by a falling part from the 737 but yeah, not impossible in the end.

Was the unauthorized climb of the embraer with the TCAS off ever confirmed btw?

Of course we'll never learn until the data and audio recorders from the 737 are recovered. What's almost certain however, is that something very abrupt and quick that would render it uncontrollable would have happened in the GOL plane (i.e. no emergency signal); that or the Helios case which i highly doubt..who knows?

[Edited 2006-10-01 21:57:57]
DEC
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:01 am

Guess it doesn't take much...compare the damage on this wing with the damage on the horizontal stab


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Photo © Weimeng

 
pilotaydin
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:06 am

just a theory, but i think that after snipping each other, the 737 banked and yanked....and structurally damaged the plane, hence a break up...


damn.....my mouth is still open...
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
bretts1983
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:08 am

Can somebody tell me looking at the first photo of the legacy on this post, is there visable damage to the engine intake or is that the design of the engine or a visual illusion, to me that engine looks as if there is a dent.
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 am

Quoting N754PR (Reply 141):
People are saying the damage is too minor to have caused the 737 to crash... well if the Legacy hit the cockpit section or the rudder that I think / assume / guess would cause some VERY, VERY serious control issues for the 737.

Reading of the crash and seeing the pictures of the Legacy with minor damage brought this picture to mind:


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jack D. Glover



At very low speeds on the ground, the leading edge of the Asiana 744 managed to cut 1/3 of the way through the SU IL-62M's stabilizer. Surely at much higher speeds the Legacy could possible cut the stabilizer straight through...however not definitive this is definitley possible.
 
curlyheadboy
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:23 am

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 156):
just a theory, but i think that after snipping each other, the 737 banked and yanked....and structurally damaged the plane, hence a break up...


damn.....my mouth is still open...

That's my guess as well... A question you know the answer for sure: Is there some sort of envelope protection in the 737NGs flight controls?

Quoting Bretts1983 (Reply 157):
Can somebody tell me looking at the first photo of the legacy on this post, is there visable damage to the engine intake or is that the design of the engine or a visual illusion, to me that engine looks as if there is a dent.

Had the same impression, but it's just a reflection on the polished engine intake, I think the first picture has been taken for comparing the intact structures with the damaged ones.
If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
 
PHKLM
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting Bretts1983 (Reply 157):
Can somebody tell me looking at the first photo of the legacy on this post, is there visable damage to the engine intake or is that the design of the engine or a visual illusion, to me that engine looks as if there is a dent.

I reckon this is merely a reflection of the wing/tarmac.
The Embraer was only weeks old (like the Boeing) so the reflection in the engine inlet is nice and shiny.
My thoughts go to the ones involved in this crash and the people at GOL that have fought over the last decade to introduce the LCC concept in South America with great success.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:31 am

More pictures released (very sad)



This is the bigger part found up to now. Over one wing you can see two Brazilian Air Force militars and it's on it's reverse side.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Vimanav
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 158):
Surely at much higher speeds the Legacy could possible cut the stabilizer straight through...however not definitive this is definitley possible.

A precise impact-force calculation includes impact speed, weight of the projectile, density, dimensions and configuration, as well as angle of impact. Expressed in an equation, impact force is proportional to the mass of the projectile and the square of impact speed. In case of a bird strike, applying actual figures, a 4lb bird striking an aircraft flying at 250 kts will deliver an impact force of approximately 38,000 lbs. At an airspeed of 400 kts, the force increases to 100,000 lbs.

If the two aircraft were heading towards each other the winglet of the Embraer would have scythed through the B737 like a knife thru butter.

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
curlyheadboy
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 160):
More pictures released (very sad)

Main gear is down, this could mean that the crew was active during the descent, lowering the gear coud help in decreasing speed...
If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
 
F9Animal
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 160):
This is the bigger part found up to now. Over one wing you can see two Brazilian Air Force militars and it's on it's reverse side.

Felipe

Interesting. Was the gear down before impact? Or did the impact knock the wheels down?

Wonder if the Embraer smacked the cockpit section of the 737?
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
EMBQA
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 160):
This is the bigger part found up to now

That picture raises some questions. First reports said the 737 hit the ground at over 350mph... With the center section fully intact and showing little signs of post crash fire makes me wonder how it really did come down.

Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 162):
Main gear is down, this could mean that the crew was active during the descent, lowering the gear coud help in decreasing speed...

With most accidents the impact knocks the gear open, or the loss of hydraulics causes the gear to lower. I strongly doubt the crew lowered the gear after impact. They would have had a lot more to worry about....

[Edited 2006-10-01 22:49:54]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:46 am

The picture in a bigger size

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j193/joaovitor/gear.jpg
or
http://www.g1.com.br
(see "Acidente da Gol - Foto Inédita")

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
DeC
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:47 am

By the look of it i would say that the gears were down at time of impact and the extraction wasn't caused by the impact it self...they seem pretty fixed and 'in place' to have been knocked out by impact forces. What do you think?

[Edited 2006-10-01 22:49:23]
DEC
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting DeC (Reply 166):
By the look of it i would say that the gears were down at time of impact and the extraction wasn't caused by the impact it self...they seem pretty fixed and 'in place' to have been knocked out by impact forces. What do you think?

[Edited 2006-10-01 22:49:23]

I was going to ask the same question - why would the gear be down and locked?
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
EMA747
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:54 am

The damage to the Legacy winglet looks like a very clean cut. What are they made of? Surely you would expect a more "shattered" wing and wing light?
Also if you look at the head on shot (no. 4) there is no visible damage to the elevator like there is in the second shot. This may indicate a "puncture" type inpact from the side rather than downwards or upwards.
Failing doesn’t make you a failure. Giving up and refusing to try again does!
 
Vimanav
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 163):
Wonder if the Embraer smacked the cockpit section of the 737?

The nose... maybe possible. However just cannot visualize the winglet of the the Embraer smacking the cockpit with no other part of its body touching the 737. The Embraer could possibly only manage this so cleanly only if either she or the 737 were inverted in relation to the other aircraft.

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
F9Animal
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting DeC (Reply 166):
By the look of it i would say that the gears were down at time of impact and the extraction wasn't caused by the impact it self...they seem pretty fixed and 'in place' to have been knocked out by impact forces. What do you think?

Yes, I have to agree after looking at them closer. The flight crew made an attempt to slow the bird down, or planned a crash landing. I am beyond curious to see what the find on the CVR. If they were able to get the gear down, then I would have to doubt that they lost the hydraulics.

This is getting kind of weird. Have the Brazillian authorities come up with anything yet?
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
curlyheadboy
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 167):
I was going to ask the same question - why would the gear be down and locked?

I may be wrong, but selecting gear down on a rapid descent would add drag, and reduce speed.
If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
 
EMA747
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:02 am

Wouldnt you want to keep the gear up so as to present a flatter/smoother surface to the treetops, like landing on water?
Failing doesn’t make you a failure. Giving up and refusing to try again does!
 
dc863
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 98):
Th TK in paris?? there was a fire i believe...small..

TK981 lost it's aft port cargo door resulting in the collapse of the rear main floor jamming the control cables. The aircraft was shredded by the impact with the forest, the DC-10 slightly nose down and starboard wing down 10 degrees when it hit. No onboard fire. Only a few small flash fires post impact.
 
mika
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 171):
I may be wrong, but selecting gear down on a rapid descent would add drag, and reduce speed.

It surely would slow things down, and also at least to me it feels like the right thing to do to lower the gear if you're making a controlled emergency ditch, even if it's in a rain forest.

Just my €00.2
 
Oykie
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:24 am

Quoting Vimanav (Reply 169):
The nose... maybe possible. However just cannot visualize the winglet of the the Embraer smacking the cockpit with no other part of its body touching the 737. The Embraer could possibly only manage this so cleanly only if either she or the 737 were inverted in relation to the other aircraft.

rgds//Vimanav

How far is it between the nose of the 737 and it's engine? If it is almost similar as the distance between the legacy's winglet and it's damaged stabilizer, I believe this could very well be what caused the accident. If the Legacy was on a climb and they hit the 737 head on, they would not see the plane more than a shadow, as the nose would be pointing upwards.

Anyway the people onboard the Legacy are lucky to be alive! They where microseconds away from eternity.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
jc2354
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:25 am



It was reported, either BBC or CNN, that GOL was at 37,000 feet, and the Legacy was at 33,000 feet. The Captain of the Legacy stated that a large shawdow covered his airplane, then there was damage.

At the altitude and speeds involved, the Legacy would have received much more catastrophic damage in a collision. With this in mind, instead of a mid air collision, perhaps a piece of the already disintegrating 737 hit the Legacy. It would explain why the 737 lost radar contact, why there were no radio transmissions, and the limited damage to the Legacy.
If not now, then when?
 
andessmf
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:27 am

What a terrible tragedy. My condolences goes to everyone involved.

Quoting CURLHEADBOY (Reply 171):
I may be wrong, but selecting gear down on a rapid descent would add drag, and reduce speed.

That is a standard procedure for an emergency descent.

What about the possibility that the 737 was not greatly damaged by the collision either, but their evasive manuevers might have been extreme. This could easily cause overloading of the structure and breakup. There have been many accidents of this sort, where one of the involved aircraft survived the collision.
 
ULMFlyer
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:42 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 66):
In portuguese, flight level 330 and 360 sound almost exactly the same. 330 - treis, treis, zero. 360 treis, seis, zero. It is actually common in portuguese to use a completely different way of saying 6 (meia as in meia-duzia - half dozen) to prevent 3 and 6 from being mistaken for one another.

With a brazilian crew, my experience is that air traffic controlers in brazil will give instructions in portuguese.

Since I haven't seen a reply to your question, I'll say that you're correct that controllers will speak Portuguese to Brazilian aircraft.

However, standard phraseology in Brazil dictates that 6 will be pronounced as "meia," never as "seis", in the same way that 1 is "uno" and not "um." Therefore, I highly doubt that either ATC or the GOL crew made this mistake, and I believe this will NOT be a factor here.
Let's go Pens!
 
bmie70
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting EMA747 (Reply 168):
The damage to the Legacy winglet looks like a very clean cut. What are they made of? Surely you would expect a more "shattered" wing and wing light?

I think that they are made of Carbon Fibre composite which would shear reasonably cleanly compared to Aluminium Alloy.
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:44 am

ok this is becoming freakier by the second....that underside is virtually intact, the tail section is virtually intact....

Im starting to think the legacy clipped the 737 and a piece of the 737 wing broke off, and smashed into the horizontal stab at the back, the aircraft became barely controllable, and they lowered the gear to control the yaw and speed a lot better, and they would need it later on in the landing,

then i think that since the aircraft would be banking it skipped across the tree tops and kinda sank into the forrest at a slow speed, then flipped over....the main tank and fuel tank would have ignited, but it seems that it was a soft landing, because that center spar seems intact....

i really think that the focus is going to be on the empennage of the 737 and the control issues they had....

JAL 747 anyone?
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
Vimanav
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting Jc2354 (Reply 176):
perhaps a piece of the already disintegrating 737 hit the Legacy

A very, very unlikely supposition. But then anything is possible these days...

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 177):
but their evasive manuevers might have been extreme

B737's are terrifically sturdy aircraft as proven from time to time, I personally do not think that a violent maneuvre to avoid a collision could cause structural damage especially since it the approach speeds were very high and you would have time to just about try one maneuvre and not more. There have been so many instances of modern jet aircraft being put through unbelievable stress and still living to fly another time. The B747SP of Air China (I think), the B707 being rolled on its maiden display flight, the B727 that lost a part of its wing during very high turbulence, the DC-8 that broke the sound barrier... they all lived to tell the tale even though they may have suffered some degree of damage. In my mind I would rule out structural failure purely due to an evasive manuevre though it could well have happened after being struck by the Legacy in a vital part.

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
Vimanav
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:51 am

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 180):
Im starting to think the legacy clipped the 737 and a piece of the 737 wing broke off, and smashed into the horizontal stab at the back,

or how about clipping a the engine which in turn may have broken off and struck its own tail??? Is this a possibility? (my post no. 150). My question is directed to you Piloyaydin, considering your intimate knowledge of the 737 as a pilot.

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
bmie70
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting Jan Mogren (Reply 139):
Cockpit windows are very often covered in cruise by shade panels or even non-see thru material like magazines, maps or what are available to block the sun.
It's not strange IF they didn't see each other.

You mean like they have in this picture, unfortunately taken on a GOL 737.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Matheus M. de F. Barbosa



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Zaza



RIP All the passengers and crew.

[Edited 2006-10-02 00:05:26]
 
swissy
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:31 am

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 180):
ok this is becoming freakier by the second....that underside is virtually intact, the tail section is virtually intact

Could not agree more, gear down and on one picture it looks like the flaps have been extended too........... and no mayday or distress call????....
I hope the Brazilian authorities will give us more info.......... soon.....

Cheers,
 
awthompson
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:34 am

Responding to some of the comments in recent replies:

A. It is quite plausable that the 737 crew lowered the gear to arrest speed while in an otherwise uncontrollable dive. This would be instintive and perhaps the only means of speed “control” still left to the crew.

B. I would put very high doubt on any liklihood that the damage to the Legacy was caused by a part falling from an already stricken 737. The so called "part" would need to be rather large to damage the winglet and the horizontal stabilizer. The lateral and vertical distance between the two damage areas is too great. I think that two separate parts would be necessary and this increases the odds virtually beyond possibility. Refer to the nose-on photo of the Legacy to verify this. I think that both the winglet and the horizontal stabiliser touched the 737.

C. With this in mind, you can start to narrow down the possible collision orientations. I think we can be clear that the final collision course was very close to head on. Also the Legacy had to be underneath the 737 since he certainly was not inverted.

Also it seems to me from the damage that either one of the two aircraft had to be banked, possibly in a last minute attempt to avoid the impending coillision. Since the Legacy crew, according to what I have read did not know anything until they were momentarily aware of a “shadow”, then they were not in any avoidance manouvre. If any aircraft was banked, it had to be the 737.

D. The possibility that the 737 had banked right is a possible scenario for perhaps three reasons;

1. It would be necessary to concur with the damage areas to the Legacy.
2.Surely it is likely that during the last few seconds before impact, the 737 crew would have had some warning either visually or by a TCAS indication that they were on a head on collision course.
3.Also, at least from my pilot training days, I was taught that if ever faced with a head on situation in the air that both aircraft should break to the RIGHT. I think in fact this is aviation law.

All in all, the previously mentioned animation might not be very far off, except that only one of the two aircraft was banked.

NOTE: These are my informed ideas and not to be taken too seriously. Comments and constructive criticism welcome.

Thanks
 
famfmarques
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:40 am

"Anac" just confirmed that the crash was a consequence of the two aircrafts colliding in mid-air... I guess this rules out the the scenario where the boeing would have break-up during regular flight and pieces hitting the Legacy by chance. The razor-cut / slice theory seems more plausible this time...

http://noticias.terra.com.br/brasil/...nterna/0,,OI1168682-EI7792,00.html
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:41 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 149):
ANAC inform they won't find the black box.

You mean the haven´t found it?? Or that they will never be able to find it???

Gosh i hate it when this absurd thing happen. My condolences to the familiars, who must be really mad against life right now.
 
Mr.BA
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:45 am

I think what was being said between the crew and ATC would be vital to know the crew's assessment of the situation and their intentions.
Boeing747 万岁!
 
PPVRA
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting DC10Forever (Reply 141):
That´s why I believe that the Legacy did not hit the Boeing and some part of the Boeing in fact hit the Legacy.

It looks unlikely IMO by the small amount of damage to the winglet and the horizontal stabilizer.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 149):

In the possibility of some part of Flight 1907 hit the Legacy, i doubt the damage was only what we see.

I agree. I expected more damage if that would had been the case.

Quoting BMIE70 (Reply 179):
Quoting EMA747 (Reply 168):
The damage to the Legacy winglet looks like a very clean cut. What are they made of? Surely you would expect a more "shattered" wing and wing light?

I think that they are made of Carbon Fibre composite which would shear reasonably cleanly compared to Aluminium Alloy.

Probably. And I'd say the Legacy crew can be thankful for that, too! The composite winglet may have been what saved them.


Any chance the Legacy hit some part that broke off radio transmissions altogether and at the same time impaired the aircraft?
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
andrewuber
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:57 am

Quoting DeC (Reply 166):
By the look of it i would say that the gears were down at time of impact and the extraction wasn't caused by the impact it self...they seem pretty fixed and 'in place' to have been knocked out by impact forces. What do you think?

While a total loss of hydraulics and forces can cause the gear to droop or sag, I doubt they would be extended fully with the downlocks in place. Looks like the crew extended the gear at some point before impact - which makes sense - when you're going down you don't worry about the gear extension speeds, all you worry about is slowing the aircraft down at any cost.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 177):
evasive manuevers might have been extreme. This could easily cause overloading of the structure and breakup

Again, I doubt that a quick yank on the yoke could have caused a structural breakup. Most wing flex tests are done to extraordinary measures, and simulate extreme forces. Trying to evade a collision at cruise altitude and speed is pushing the envelope, but it doesn't look like there was much time for the crew to bend and break the airplane.
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CPHGuard
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:57 am

How on earth, could the EMB have hit the cockpit with only little damage? The two planes were flying head to head, and if the winglet of the EMB had hit the cockpit of the 737, it would have smacked into the wing. So i don't see this as a possibility.

If we then consider, that the winglet of the EMB hit the vertical stabilizer of the 737, what hit the stabilizer of the EMB then?
This scenario is impossible, because there is nothing left to damage the stabilizer of the EMB. except if the EMB's own winglet was thrown into the stabilizer of the EMB.

Winglets are made of lightweight materials. Correct me if im wrong, but i beleive they are made of some sort of fiberglass.
Even with a speed of close to 1000 mph, i find it hard to beleive, that the VERY fragile winglet of the EMB, would cause significant damage to the 737. It would just snap off.

I know, that i don't try to answer any questions in this post, but i can't think of a scenario, that would have caused so little damage to the EMB, and bringing the Boeing down.

Anyone know, the condition of the FDR's recovered ?

Regards
Thomas

[Edited 2006-10-02 01:07:45]
 
PPVRA
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:06 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 187):

You mean the haven´t found it?? Or that they will never be able to find it???

That they haven't found it.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
EMA747
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:09 am

"told media that they had not seen the large passenger craft until it was on top of them, but had felt an impact at 5:30 local time on Friday. Pilots told police that they had been very surprised that the Traffic alert and Collision Avoidance System had not alerted them to the nearby jet."

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-10/02/content_5163061.htm
Failing doesn’t make you a failure. Giving up and refusing to try again does!
 
richm
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:09 am

It often takes a few days at least to find the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder. Sometimes weeks...
 
awthompson
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:17 am

Refering to reply 191 by CPHGuard

Your analysis is good and shows how a cockpit impact by the winglet of the Legacy may be unlikely.

I think however that one of the aircraft had to be in a RIGHT bank in order for the Legacy to sustain damage in both separate areas. Most likely the 737.

Also the initial damage to the 737 is most likely to have been underneath and / or the port (right) wing / engine.

Check my post (reply 185) a short distance up this page as to why I think so.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:17 am

Quoting EMA747 (Reply 193):

Watch your source. See:

Quote:
Also on Sunday, pilots and passengers from the executive jet --a 2002 Legacy* manufactured by Brazilian company Ebraer** -- told media that they had not seen the large passenger craft until it was on top of them, but had felt an impact at 5:30 local time on Friday. Pilots told police*** that they had been very surprised that the Traffic alert and Collision Avoidance System had not alerted them to the nearby jet. The TCAS safety device -- which automatically communicates flight data to nearby aircraft -- is standard on modern aircraft.

*2002??
**Ebraer??
***police??
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
DeC
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:20 am

Quoting Awthompson (Reply 185):
2.Surely it is likely that during the last few seconds before impact, the 737 crew would have had some warning either visually or by a TCAS indication that they were on a head on collision course.

From what i know, a TCAS warning in the crashed 737, concerning its position in relevance to the Embraer’s, would only be valid if the crew of the Embraer had their TCAS on as well, something which wasn't confirmed yet (talks about unauthorized climb and tcas off in the embraer and all).

Overall, the lack of official output of logical (at first glance) information by now is simply amazing imo, especially a couple of days after the accident. Things like what the ATC saw in their radars, what was told (If something like this did occur) between atc and the two planes during the last minutes / seconds, official confirmation or disproval of the no-tcas / unauthorized climb rumours of the embraer, flight levels and confirmation of the collision by the atc plus other stuff is completely illogical to not have been released by now, the way I see it. Is anyone thinking that something is being hidden here or indeed, something non-ordinary Is going on with this crash?
DEC
 
fliguy
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:20 am

It would appear the the worlds news services, other than Brazils, are not interested in reporting what's happening in Brazil relative to the crash.

The crew of the Legacy are in serious trouble if what is being reported on O Globo (Brazilian news source) is factual. The link below will take you to an article in Portugues outlining that indictments are pending against the Pilot and Co-Pilot for neglegence.

http://oglobo.globo.com/pais/mat/2006/10/01/285915797.asp
 
spacecadet
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:20 am

Quoting DC10Forever (Reply 141):
That´s why I believe that the Legacy did not hit the Boeing and some part of the Boeing in fact hit the Legacy.

The odds of this are astronomically higher than the odds of a straight mid-air collision. First, you're talking about a new aircraft spontaneously breaking up in flight. That's already about a trillion to one shot. Then you're talking about the part that came off the 737 magically hitting another airplane in flight - the equivalent of shooting a speeding bullet with another speeding bullet. This sequence of events would be almost impossible. Practically speaking, it *is* impossible - it would never happen.

Mid-air collisions, though, are neither impossible nor altogether implausible, and have in fact occured dozens of times despite all the safeguards against them. Airplanes all fly along the same corridors at the same or similar altitudes, so without guidance and without those safeguards they'd be flying into each other all over the place. One or two mistakes, and maybe a technical fault with a piece of navigation or TCAS equipment thrown in for good measure, and you're asking for trouble.

Quoting Awthompson (Reply 185):
I think we can be clear that the final collision course was very close to head on. Also the Legacy had to be underneath the 737 since he certainly was not inverted.

I would pretty much agree. Whatever the Legacy hit, it was slightly to one side and above it - and I can't envision any sequence where that kind of damage would be done from a side impact (knowing that the 737 would be traveling at 310 or so knots from side to side). My thinking is if they were coming head-on, first of all both sets of pilots would have very little time to react if they were relying purely on visuals. An airplane coming at you at a combined 700mph would start out as a pinpoint in the sky and end up right on top of you in a matter of seconds. This would also explain why none of the Legacy passengers say they saw a 737 at any time; they'd have only a split second to see it as the collision occured, so if they weren't by chance looking out the window at that time, they'd see nothing. Even if they were, the 737 would go by so fast that they probably wouldn't know what it was.

I don't really think it's all that strange to think that the Legacy could do enough damage to a 737 from what we see here to cause a crash. Airliners are not built to withstand midair collisions, and they have sensitive parts all over the aircraft. A ruptured fuel tank, a sheared-off engine, a torn stabilizer, severed control cables, all are possibilities. This is not the big mystery, although I am interested to see what the final report says about the collision sequence.

The bigger mystery is still what was going on with the TCAS system and how the pilots reacted to it. I mean do we have another situation like the crash involving that DHL cargo plane and a passenger plane in Russia a while back? Or was the TCAS system even working? These are the things that I find perplexing.

btw, there are also some interesting questions looking at the photo of the wings. One of the things investigators have to determine is what damage was caused by the impact and what damage was caused beforehand. Looking at this photo, I see two guys apparently focusing on the engine pylon on the right wing (the left side of the picture). Also, both wing leading edges show some strange damage; they're crumpled inward there in a way that I can't personally figure out would have been caused by impact, especially as the edges directly adjacent are in perfect shape.

Also, the fact that one of the bogeys is still in its locked position, and this part of the wing structure is basically intact, doesn't suggest that it hit the ground at more than 300mph in a vertical orientation as has been positied. It could possibly have been *inverted* but it looks like a fairly low-speed crash.
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