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par13del
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:06 am

So if we compare the A380 with the Sonic Cruiser where are the Boeing models that can't fly, are we really comparing a plane that is built but delayed into service with a project that was cancelled, does someone know something inside Airbus / EADS and is letting the cat out of the bag?

Problem with the Civ. Av. forum is too much of the me / you too. If this thread is about the A380, let it be so, there is enough info and dis-information about this project and a/c that it needs no help or aid from any other a/c or company.
 
osiris30
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:06 am

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 49):
But the way some of you go on, it's like Airbus will go out of business tomorrow. Not happening. Both Boeing and Airbus have their downs, but I'm sure folks don't pick up on Boeing's half as quick as they do on Airbus's. When Boeing do well, Most of us (Europeans included) congratulate them, however when Airbus do well, nothing's said - until they drop a clanger, at which time it becomes world news (and ammunition for the uneasy out there) and everyone says, "Told you so!".

I don't think that's fair at all. When the 380 makes first commercial revenue service I'll be the first person to congratulate Airbus on their accomplishment. Same goes for Boeing. And if Boeing steps in it like Airbus has done with the 380 I'll take a strip out of them too. As long as Airbus management keeps screwing up I'll continue to tear them a new one.

I do NOT congratulate failure, sorry. Airbus has done nothing with the 380 to this point that I would consider 'worthy of praise'. They have moved through the program much like any aircraft manufaturer would. Until they hit the delays there was nothing remarkable about the program at all. Doing an average job, does not warrant comment. Had they made it to delivery without any issues that alone would have been remarkable.

Additionally the 380 was SO pre-hyped, and SO much trash talking was done by Airbus about it, that you KNEW if would come back on them. It always does.

For the record I don't view a big plane as a technological wonder when it's only 30% bigger than it's competitor and ?smaller? than the current largest flying plane (the big AN). Antonov built something bigger YEARS and YEARS ago. The 380 is not groundbreak in any major way. It is evolutionary not revoluntionary. It's not the big deal it's supporters seem to think it is.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
bigb
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 49):
Where's the talk of the A320 family outselling the 737NG? Is that not happening at the moment or something? Is that swept under the carpet? Or shall we change the subject and go back to Airbus-bashing?

Why talk about both aircrafts. Both are performing well in commerical operations. Both are selling hella good!
ATP, CFI, CFII, MEI, B747-400, CRJ-200/700/900
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting Findigenous (Thread starter):
The A380 is still, despite anything that has happened recently, inarguably the greatest civilian airliner project ever, and it looks like many of you have hard time appreciating the fact.

With respect, many well regarded aviation experts, including many here, do not feel the same way about the aircraft nor it's business case, as you do. In the end, you could very well be right. I'm one of those who feel that the Boeing 707 project was the greatest development in modern commerical aviation, but hey, that's just my opinion.
The whole project from the beginning has been controversial, even within Airbus itself. Both sides of debate have compelling arguments. But let's also be honest, I seriously doubt you'll hear many in the business world that would proclaim the A380 project "the greatest civilian airliner " outside of aviation circles.
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
ikramerica
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:22 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 45):
I think his point was more that a) the 380 wasn't the most ground breaking design in history and b) had infact evolved despite arguements to the contrary. Again I think you took it a little too seriously, thus the chip comment above.

Exactly. Look at the MD12 and the current A380, and they have a lot in common in terms of form, but obviously there is a lot not in common. Look at the original (final) A3XX concept, and it has a lot in common with the real A380, but a lot that is different. A double decker plane must look a lot like the MD12/A3XX/A380. But the parts that DON'T need to look the same vary quite a bit between the MD12/3XX/380.

The claim that the A380 hasn't changed since the concept was marketed is shear nonsense. No plane, car, computer, etc. stays the same from concept drawings to testing model. Reality always trumps fantasy when it comes to product design (at least design that needs to meet performance specs at a price).

Did the 7E7 change more or less than the A3XX? That's subjective.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
billreid
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:28 am

Quoting Findigenous (Thread starter):
The A380 is still, despite anything that has happened recently, inarguably the greatest civilian airliner project ever, and it looks like many of you have hard time appreciating the fact.

As difficult as it may be to take you are right and wrong. Thed A380 is a human triumph from an engineering perspective on an equal level to the Concorde. It is also a project that would have been cancelled if 9/11 had occured three years earlier. There is no need for this size aircraft in the global aviation community at this point in time.

When 9/11 occured the A380 was past the point of no return and Airbus had to complete the project. The problem is that it is less needed that the Concorde was and with the delays Airbus faces the loss of Billions on this product, but it was and is a better option than cancelling the project on 9/12 financially based on the Euros sunk in.

I just returned from the Routes Conference in Dubai witrh the entire global planning community and the A380 was less of a topic than the A350 as an airbus product. The point is this aircraft is a wonderfully designed albatross,
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
ikramerica
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:45 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 55):
When 9/11 occured the A380 was past the point of no return and Airbus had to complete the project.

I don't believe this at all. It was only launched 9 months earlier, and could have been shelved or delayed.

Boeing wasn't any more "on the ball" after 9/11, trying to push the Sonic Cruiser through anyway. Spring of 2002 was when Boeing put it's last best SC out, and Airbus began construction of key components of the A380. Either company could have taken a "mulligan" in the fall of 2001, but neither did.

One wonders if Boeing would have pushed ahead if it had 50-100 SC orders in the bank like Airbus did with the A380...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:50 am

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 41):
"I'm American and I can't take constructive criticism when it's aimed at Boeing (or anything American, for that matter!)".

Comments like this can be flipped back at you, and serve no useful purpose.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 41):
You are pointing a finger at Airbus at the moment - I don't see anyone in this thread doing the same to Boeing

Perhaps because the thread topic involves the A380 rather than Boeing? We can discuss one without involving the other?

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 41):
As for the MD-12 nonsense, what else is a four-engined double-decker supposed to look like? Are you saying Airbus copied it? Had the MD-12 been proposed or not, the A380 was ALWAYS going to look like it does - because that's more-or-less the only design for a four-engined super-jumbo.

Agreed. MD-12 was just a proposal, and A380 was in no way derived from it.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 55):
A380 is a human triumph from an engineering perspective on an equal level to the Concorde.

I just can't agree. Concorde involved a much steeper learning curve for the designers in every aspect of aerodynamics, materials, you name it. Also consider that it was designed on paper by guys with sliderules (slight exaggeration). A380 has many firsts, but none that make me say "wow!".
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
call911mfc
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:02 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 5):
Quoting Findigenous (Thread starter):
If there were a real problem with available seats, would everyone really be buying the small 787's like they were going out of style?

I suspect you know this, but the 787 has a completely different market then the A380. Market segmentation is something that customers need to understand in order to actually sell products that their customers want and need. With 400 orders for the 787 and the crown of fastest selling widebody ever, Boeing got the market segmentation right. With 150 orders for the A380 and break even far away (and getting farther away every day) it's also pretty clear Airbus didn't.

Airbus and Boeing have two different views of the future of aviation. Money speaks. Boeing has dominated widebody (and high margin) sales because airlines think they have the right model.

I agree with this. Boeing, for quite a while explored the option of going bigger, but instead, paid attention to the changing market and chose to sitck with a tried and ture airframe, the 74 series and adapt models to fill in the gaps between it and the 737 series. Airbus chose to put all their chips in the "bigger is better" pile and at best, it would be a draw in the long run. With the delays, however, they may end up losing.

Just like the others have said, it's no different than arguing who your favorite F1 or MotoGP pilot is.....it's all about preference.
There's nothing wrong with a little cerebral sparring now and then. I'm sure every time Boeing announces a delay in an airframe or delivery, the A guys throw it back at them.

Now, I'm going to log off my Pentium, go hop on my Ducati and ride off into the sunset.....
 
MCIGuy
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:08 am

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 41):
And let's face it, the A380 is flying, the 787 is not.

Sure it is! The A380 is out doing promo and test flights. The 787 is flying off of shelves.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 41):
WANT it to fail, because, deep down, they know it won't

I "know" no such thing.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 41):
There's certainly some sort of inferiority complex here because Boeing didn't build it.

No, I'm really glad Boeing didn't build it.
  

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 41):
what else is a four-engined double-decker supposed to look like?

Like this?:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9a/Boeing_NLA.jpg/800px-Boeing_NLA.jpg

Like it or not, the original concept is entirely American.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 49):
But the way some of you go on, it's like Airbus will go out of business tomorrow.

I don't want Airbus or the A380 to fail. I'll always look at it like the marvel it is, but I'll have the flawed business case in the back of my mind as well.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 49):
Where's the talk of the A320 family outselling the 737NG?

Probably because it's only outsold the 737 for a time and the 737 has sold more frames than Airbus' entire line overall.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 41):
Let's play, "I'm American and I can't take constructive criticism when it's aimed at Boeing (or anything American, for that matter!)".

What's that saying regarding setting suns...

  

[Edited 2006-10-03 04:12:07]
Airliners.net Moderator Team
 
beech19
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:08 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 57):
A380 has many firsts, but none that make me say "wow!".

The only thing to me that is even close to "wow" is how massivley huge the aircraft really is (and how ugly the nose is, rest of its fine to me).

BUT then again... i've seen an AN-225 up close and in person so the A380 really isn't THAT big to me when compared. Let alone a cruise ship or aircraft carrier (far more impressive).
KPAE via KBVY
 
PVG
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:37 am

I think that you need to go back a few years and look at the posts on this forum when Airbus was in it's glory and Boeing was having trouble. The Airbus guys was boasting left and right. They were going to own the world. The worst part was that Mr. Leahy & Co. were doing it as well. They were bigger better blah blah blah!!! In fact, all they did was use government assistance to buy 50% market share. They capitalized on their main competitors arrogance and the fact that most of their designs were from the 60's and 70's. So, they picked the low lying fruit (using modern methods to improve on old designs), offered competitive pricing, and were able to take market share. Now that they are (were?) the leader and need to innovate, they've been exposed.

I think that the main question is was the investment and time put into the development of the A380 the wisest use of company/shareholder capital? Did the world really need this plane? Having 20/20 hindsight, I don't see how anyone can answer yes to the question? This is not a high school science project. This is an issue on huge amounts of money, thousands of jobs, and use of resources (not only financial, but natural resources that cannot be replenished). I cannot come to the conclusion that Airbus made a wise choice. It was all about EGO and PRIDE, not based in reality and a realistic business model!
 
airmailer
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:53 am

Quoting Findigenous (Thread starter):
The A380 is still, despite anything that has happened recently, inarguably the greatest civilian airliner project ever

If it really was the greatest wouldn't it already been in commercial service?

I'm just saying that it doesn't appear to me to be the greatest, just the biggest.
 
commavia
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:53 am

Quoting Findigenous (Thread starter):
The A380 is still, despite anything that has happened recently, inarguably the greatest civilian airliner project ever

"Inarguably the greatest civilian airliner project ever?"

Honestly, do you truly believe that?

The A380 is -- at best -- a technological marvel and economic lightweight. Whether the A380 can crawl its way into being categorized as an economic "success" is still to be seen, but it's looking less and less likely as delivery delays mount, technical problems worsen, and customer after customer gets more and more pissed off and demand more and more money. And that's before you even factor in the recent reports that the A380 delays will, in all likelihood, further delay the new A350, itself the result of a hubristic failure on the part of Airbus to fully recognize the technical realities of a rapidly changing market environment.

Quoting Findigenous (Thread starter):
mistakes have been made at EADS, they are working day and night to resolve the issues

From my perspective, and the perspective and many around the world, you have missed the point completely with regards to Airbus' (and EADS') troubles.

It's not about the A380 being delayed, the wiring systems not working, the A350 being reworked because the original was a joke.

These are not the problem, but rather symptoms of a far, far greater problem. While some may not like to hear it, the problem -- as I see it -- is that Airbus is so insulated from market realities because of the financial support it gets from government agencies that it has lost sight of what is happening on the ground in the rapidly evolving airline industry. First with the A380 and then with the A350, Airbus just totally missed the boat.

Airbus staked its future -- and billions of dollars of taxpayer money -- on an enormous jet that would supposedly revolutionize air travel by reducing unit seat costs to never-before-achieved levels and freeing up slots at congested airports like Heathrow and Narita. As it turns out, the A380 is way, way too big for most of the world's markets, and will likely be useless in 95% of the world's routes, and for 95% of the world's major airlines. Outside of a few select cities like Heathrow, Singapore, Sydney, Hong Kong, Frankfurt, Paris, etc. where slots are an issue, the A380 is simply way, way too big to profitably fly without destroying yields. It's great for cargo, but in the vast majority of instances, its nowhere near realistic for the passenger market. And those amazing unit costs Airbus said it would deliver? Boeing just blew them out of the water with the 787.

Then Airbus went around spending billions more of taxpayer's money on "researching" the A350 as they scrambled to find something to put up against the 787 once they saw what a runaway success it was. What taxpayers bought with their billions was a pothetic excuse for a plane, basically a trumped up A330, that Airbus ultimately had to eat. Airbus had to start all over again, from scratch, to design a new plane to combat the market success of the Boeing 787 program, and will no doubt spend billions more in the process of bringing this next "revolutionary" aircraft to market -- albeit, likely not on time, due to the ongoing A380 problems.

These two cases are both illustrative of Airbus' problems. The company never really has to worry about success or failure -- it's not really a concern -- because they know that no matter what happens, they can always get government "research and development" grants that pour billions into the company's coffers. Unlike Boeing, whose products sink or swim on the world market based on their economics and capabilities, Airbus' products can be sold at an artifically-produced discount because of their subsidies. Yeah, yeah, I know, I know, that doesn't happen. Yeah, we've heard it all before. The reality is that Airbus has billions that governments give them. And there is no way that it doesn't impact their pricing with customers. No way.

Instead of worrying about what airlines in the world in 2006 want -- like smaller, lighter, faster, longer-range, more efficient planes -- Airbus decides it will go for the tiny, narrow, likely shrinking market for 550-seat airplanes that only a few airlines on earth, on only a few very select routes, will likely ever be able to fly profitably. Why? Because just like the Concorde before it, Airbus is committed to proving a point -- proving that the "European model" of making collective decisions based on satisfying everyone's (translation: politicians') interests can successfully compete with the "Anglosaxon" (translation: U.S., and U.K. to an extent) model of open competion.

Now I know some will say that the U.S. government gives billions to Boeing to order military jets, satellites, advanced defense research projects, etc. The difference in this, though, and why that comparison pretty much falls flat, is that when the U.S. government gives billions to Boeing, they almost always get something tangible in return -- a plane, a satellite, a tanker, a computer system, etc. Airbus, on the other hand, gets billions for "research and development" without ever delivering planes, fighters, satellites, etc. to the French government. Big difference.

There, I said it, you can all hate me for it. The cat's out of the bag.
 
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N328KF
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:04 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 63):
Airbus staked its future -- and billions of dollars of taxpayer money -- on an enormous jet that would supposedly revolutionize air travel by reducing unit seat costs to never-before-achieved levels and freeing up slots at congested airports like Heathrow and Narita.

The A380's big problem in this respect is that it is the last large (>DC-9-sized) airliner designed before a revolution in construction techniques. I believe this will result in it having a shorter design lifetime than anticipated.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
rampart
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:07 pm

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 41):
As for the MD-12 nonsense, what else is a four-engined double-decker supposed to look like? Are you saying Airbus copied it? Had the MD-12 been proposed or not, the A380 was ALWAYS going to look like it does - because that's more-or-less the only design for a four-engined super-jumbo. If you look at all life on Earth, every animal (with few exceptions) has legs, a mouth and breathes oxygen. That's 'cause that design is best suited to the conditions of our planet, so although animals behave differently, they all share common features which evolution dictated.

While what you say is true, I believe there was some collaboration between McDD and Airbus for a "Very Large Aircraft" that did not come to fruition, at least for McDD. But the evolution of the design, a few years later, resulted in the A3XX. I'll have to look it up, but there was a story in "Airliners" a few months back...

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 49):
But the way some of you go on, it's like Airbus will go out of business tomorrow. Not happening. Both Boeing and Airbus have their downs, but I'm sure folks don't pick up on Boeing's half as quick as they do on Airbus's. When Boeing do well, Most of us (Europeans included) congratulate them, however when Airbus do well, nothing's said - until they drop a clanger, at which time it becomes world news (and ammunition for the uneasy out there) and everyone says, "Told you so!".

Where's the talk of the A320 family outselling the 737NG? Is that not happening at the moment or something? Is that swept under the carpet? Or shall we change the subject and go back to Airbus-bashing?

In my observation, without statistics, I'm actually impressed with how many "Americans" congratulate Airbus on advances and big orders, at about the same rate the "Europeans" congratulate Boeing. I don't perceive a bias you suggest. I recognize that there has been a tide in Boeing's favor this year, so there seems to be more congratulations to that side. The industry is cyclical. I've not been a member long enough to observe an Airbus tide on this forum, but I do remember the string of successes that Airbus won in recent years. I'll bet that the same conversations took place, without a resolution.

If you care to start a thread about how well the A320 is doing, historically, go ahead, outside of this one. There will be debate about total sales vs sales in recent years, rapidity of sales, pros and cons of each aircraft. None of you will be "right" and none will be "wrong", you'll just have your opinions and biases.

In short, lighten up everyone.

-Rampart
 
Longhornmaniac
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:10 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 63):

If I could add you to my RU list a 2nd time, I would!  Silly

Seriously though, great post Commavia. I think you absolutely hit the nail on the head, at least from where I stand.

I am not adamently against Airbus, nor do I see it as a US vs. the rest of the world type issue, but Airbus is digging themselves a deeper hole, that is getting harder and harder to get out of.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
rampart
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:11 pm

edit: duplicated my previous post somehow

[Edited 2006-10-03 05:17:54]
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:15 pm

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 59):
Like it or not, the original concept is entirely American.

Nope, that's going too far. I assume you are alluding to the VLCT project back in the mid-90's, but that really doesn't give America any kind of ownership of the concept. As mentioned above McDonnell Douglas studied a double-deck design, and the MD-12 proposal looked much the same as the Boeing NLA in your photo and the A380. Form follows function, and aerodynamics work the same for everyone. Each builder studied the question and came up with a similar answer, and that should not be surprising.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 63):
Instead of worrying about what airlines in the world in 2006 want -- like smaller, lighter, faster, longer-range, more efficient planes -- Airbus decides it will go for the tiny, narrow, likely shrinking market for 550-seat airplanes that only a few airlines on earth, on only a few very select routes, will likely ever be able to fly profitably.

To be fair, Airbus didn't make the decision in 2006. The world looked a bit different when the A3xx was launched in 2000, and the folly was not so obvious then. I mentioned the VLCT above...Boeing thought about it too.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:24 pm

Quoting Rampart (Reply 67):
I believe there was some collaboration between McDD and Airbus for a "Very Large Aircraft" that did not come to fruition, at least for McDD. But the evolution of the design, a few years later, resulted in the A3XX.

No. VLCT ("Very Large Commercial Transport") was a joint study by Aerospatiale, Boeing, British Aerospace, CASA and Daimler- Benz Aerospace. Might as well have been Boeing + Airbus. McDD was not involved.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
zvezda
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:30 pm

Quoting DeltaJet757 (Reply 46):
the bottom line is that the A380 is so far turning out to be a failure with all of these glitches with wiring and such.

Obviously.

Quoting DeltaJet757 (Reply 46):
This could have been avoided if the designers looked over the designs more carefully.

It's not that simple. The designs are sufficiently complex that no one could really look over all of them and find the incompatibilities that are reportedly manifest.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 49):
Boeing and Airbus are fantastic rivals, and will keep each other on their toes for a very long while. Both will sell many planes, and both will always have a decent (and often equal) market share. One will always have a better product on offer than the other, whilst at the same time having an inferior one also.

 checkmark  This is so well said it's worth reading again. Too many here lose sight of this.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 55):

When 9/11 occured the A380 was past the point of no return and Airbus had to complete the project.

I just can't agree with this at all. Airbus was only just starting to manufacture parts at the time of 9/11.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 55):
There is no need for this size aircraft in the global aviation community at this point in time.

 checkmark  Astute. There was more need for the Concorde.
 
commavia
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:32 pm

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 68):
To be fair, Airbus didn't make the decision in 2006. The world looked a bit different when the A3xx was launched in 2000, and the folly was not so obvious then.

Oh, I think it was obvious then, at least to people who wanted to see it.

The same market dynamics at play in 2006 were at play in 2000, and indeed even early. Rapidly evolving technology and a hyper-competitive marketplace spurred by the 9/11 attacks and its aftermath have merely emboldened the writing that was already on the wall: the move in this world is towards smaller, more efficient, longer-range aircraft. It's just unavoidably, and there's no way around it.

Transatlantic staging has been happening since the 1980s. Boeing 747s used to shuttle people across the pond from basically New York, plus a few other cities, and that was it. By 2000, thousands of flights per week were taking off from gateways all over the U.S. for cities throughout Europe using smaller, more efficient twin-engine 767s and A330s. Now, that process is intensifying further, as airlines like CO are pushing even smaller planes (757s) on routes penetrating even further into even smaller markets in Europe.

That same process that occured across the Atlantic is now happening across the Pacific. Flights to Asia used to run from basically two U.S. cities -- L.A. and San Francisco -- to basically one Asian city -- Tokyo -- using 747s. Now, 777s are overflying traditional U.S. and Japanese hubs and going right to the heart of the region's dynamic economic powerhouses (China, Hong Kong, Korea, etc.).

It's happening everywhere. Airlines from BA to Cathay to Singapore to JAL are trading in big 747s for smaller, more efficient, longer-range 777s and other alternatives. Of the above four, only one, Singapore, has even ordered the A380.

This market evolution -- which is in no way slowing down -- is the exact opposite of the what the A380 was supposedly designed for, and I predict will ultimately be the plane's downfall. Outside of a few markets like Heathrow where slots are so dramatically constrained, the A380 is just simply too big and the hub-to-hub routes for which the aircraft is ideally suited are going to be overflown by 777s, 787s, and (gasp!) maybe even A350s.

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 68):
I mentioned the VLCT above...Boeing thought about it too.

But Boeing decided against it. Key difference. Instead, they opted to sink a few mil into upgrading the still-successful 747 platform to satisfy the small market at the top-end of the long-haul market. Airbus chose to sink money into the wrong long-term project: the big whalejet over the nimble efficient one, while Boeing chose the exact opposite.
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:32 pm

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 59):
Like it or not, the original concept is entirely American.

Hold on dearly to that belief, MCIGuy, if it makes you sleep better at night.

I think the controversy swirling around the A380 is very revealing of our culture. We Americans (except all of you who will chime in to say I don't speak for you--consider yourself exempted, and don't even bother!) have a deeply ingrained culture of competition, of being Number One, of being the best at everything we do, and more often than not, we may achieve this. This has become part of our identity as a nation and as a culture, and for the simpleminded it makes for a nice, comfortable world view. The A380, whatever its faults, clashes with that world view. It demands to be described in terms of superlatives, and yet there's no denying it wasn't invented here... hence all the bending over backwards to find a flaw, to find some basis upon which it isn't Number One, it isn't the best, and dwell upon that strenuously and for as long as possible.

If it really was just another airplane with a dubious economic case, it would be discussed, dismissed, and forgotten. The very level of noisy controversy generated by the A380, and the constant rehashing thereof, is revealing more of cultural attitudes and a deep-seated insecurity than it is of anything about the airplane itself.

That is why I find comments like MCIGuy's quaint.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:38 pm

I simply said the concept was originally American and it was. The fact that Boeing and MD didn't execute on it remains, but it's undeniable that the idea of a double-deck, four-engine airliner showed up here first.
I do however commend Airbus for actually executing on the idea, but still wonder how many will be sold.
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osiris30
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:43 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 63):
It's great for cargo,

No it's not. No nose door. Great for Fedex/UPS style cargo sure, not all purpose cargo (747 is still the king in this market.. witness the volume of freighter orders)

Quoting N328KF (Reply 64):
The A380's big problem in this respect is that it is the last large (>DC-9-sized) airliner designed before a revolution in construction techniques. I believe this will result in it having a shorter design lifetime than anticipated.

 checkmark  Said that on several threads... it was 5 years too early to the party. When the market does need planes like this (in roughly 20 years) both Boeing and Airbus will need to ready new designs. The only difference is, Boeing won't be throwing out a fairly recent design to do it... It's kinda like the 777 and the 350, only the 777 made good money for Boeing and it's customers.

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 68):
Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 59):
Like it or not, the original concept is entirely American.

Nope, that's going too far.

Actually I *believe* Boeing was looking at the idea way back in the time shortly after the 747 first flew. I would have to dig up the reference material again (and that would likely take me forever, since I stumbled on it inadvertently) but I believe they had always considered a full length second deck to be an option, right from the early days.

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 68):
Form follows function, and aerodynamics work the same for everyone. Each builder studied the question and came up with a similar answer, and that should not be surprising.

Agreed. Similarities in the end were largely inevitable. However, if you are trying to put a stake in the ground who thought it first, I'm fairly sure it was Boeing. I mean once they designed the 747, stretching the second deck the length of the plane would seem a fairly obvious option (just on common sense alone)
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lehpron
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:50 pm

Quoting Findigenous (Thread starter):
End Of The A380 Bashing?

Just this episode. An airplane can somehow promote and encourage people to say and do things. Those folks that love/loath it so much just want to be first in line to say "I told you so" to the other group when something happens -- it is like drama afterall.  Yeah sure

This is the problem: the numbers available that we use, thinking it will end all conversation, are fluid. They change (per airline, route, model number, spec date, etc) and furthermore, they are niether objective nor unbiased, sadly neither are the people publishing them. If one is able to actually get hard data, if they have or reveal bias, their credibility is lost. Maybe putting their's and quoted opinions aside might help? Or like me, I dont have a favorite airplane, that gives me an edge over most of you, lol.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:56 pm

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 68):
To be fair, Airbus didn't make the decision in 2006. The world looked a bit different when the A3xx was launched in 2000, and the folly was not so obvious then. I mentioned the VLCT above...Boeing thought about it too.

That's what competent managers are supposed to do. That's why executives get paid gazillions. They are supposed to make educated decisions on how to spend and invest shareholder money. The nature of this business is that you make decisions today to spend billions of dollars and you won't really know if that was a wise decision for 5 to 10 years. Believe that this was Boeing's argument for not matching the A380. They did not see the market or the return requirement to make the investment. I remember them talking about "bet the company type decisions" and "you better be right or it's the end". Sounds like someone over there is alot smarter than they were getting credit for at the time.

While writing this, I'm thinking that Airbus probably thought at the time that they were going to drive Boeing out of the business, or make them an insignificant competitor. So, if they were wrong, they could get away with it.
 
rampart
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:57 pm

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 69):
No. VLCT ("Very Large Commercial Transport") was a joint study by Aerospatiale, Boeing, British Aerospace, CASA and Daimler- Benz Aerospace. Might as well have been Boeing + Airbus. McDD was not involved.

OK, but not what I was thinking. When was the study you mention above?

So, you forced me to look it up, and I verified myself. Airways Feb 2005, the lead article in fact, "Douglas: The Airbus Connection". In the late 1980s, MdDD and Airbus had discussions on a followup to the MD-11 and A340 (p. 18-19). You don't think Airbus might have gleaned some ideas? (vice versa, too) Then, another article (Airways March 2005, "MDC The Asian Adventure"), with McDD pursuing the A3XX-looking aircraft in the latest version of the MD-12, see p. 18 mention of Stonecipher, then president of the DCA division, seeking collaboration with the A3XX program.

-Rampart
 
sparkingwave
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:15 pm

Quoting Columbia107 (Reply 47):
For the sake of a healthy European aviation industry, the A380 must succeed. It will also keep Boeing on its toes

It seems that the A380 is actually keeping Airbus more on its toes than Boeing.

[quote=TeamAmerica,reply=68]Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 59):
Like it or not, the original concept is entirely American.

Nope, that's going too far. I assume you are alluding to the VLCT project back in the mid-90's, but that really doesn't give America any kind of ownership of the concept.

Nope, that's also going too far. The double-deck quad jet "concept" was studied by MD not only back in the 1990s but also in the late 1960s. The idea in varying forms was also studied by Boeing at the same time while preparing designs for the original 747. But it was actually Lockheed that came the closest to executing this design, by coming up with the L-500 proposal (pax version of the C-5A Galaxy).

So actually, 3 different American aircraft makers played around and considered these designs, when Airbus was barely in existence as an airplane company...

SparkingWave ~~~
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osiris30
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:18 pm

Quoting PVG (Reply 76):
While writing this, I'm thinking that Airbus probably thought at the time that they were going to drive Boeing out of the business, or make them an insignificant competitor. So, if they were wrong, they could get away with it.

That would have been a foolish thought, because a) airlines would never let it happen b) the American government wouldn't either (just the same way a and a modified b apply to Airbus)
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zvezda
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:33 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 71):
I think it was obvious then, at least to people who wanted to see it.

Every idea is obvious to those who want to see it. The test is what is obvious to those who don't want to see it, but are willing to follow the truth.

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 73):
I ... still wonder how many will be sold.

I wonder how many will be delivered.
 
NAV20
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:36 pm

Quoting PVG (Reply 76):
While writing this, I'm thinking that Airbus probably thought at the time that they were going to drive Boeing out of the business, or make them an insignificant competitor.

There's some evidence (sourced to John F. Welch of GE) that, bavck in 1999, that's EXACTLY what Airbus hoped the A380 would do:-

"The other bold project Welch wanted to know about concerned Airbus itself. Would it follow through on audacious plans to manufacture a 600-seat to 800-seat ''superjumbo'' plane--the largest commercial airplane ever imagined? Welch, who sells over $10 billion in jet engines every year, picked up a little plastic model of the plane, the A3XX, on Lagardere's desk. ''Jean-Luc,'' Welch asked, ''is this thing going to get built?'' Lagardere, sitting behind an ornate desk, didn't hesitate. ''We are going to do it, Jack,'' he told Welch. ''We are not going to be a niche player in airplanes. We are going to be a full global player.''

http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_28/b3689015.htm

Personally I think it comes down to the fact that Boeing are 'aeroplane people' in a way that Airbus aren't. The 747 enjoyed a virtual monopoly for a long time because you needed four engines for over-ocean longhaul.

Then came ETOPS. Boeing saw the potential for a whole new generation of wide-bodied longhaul twins - Airbus clean missed the point.

[Edited 2006-10-03 06:37:06]
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:37 pm

I didn't go trough the 81 previous replies. So, excuse me if I'm repeating.

Quoting Findigenous (Thread starter):
One does not have to be an expert of any sort to see that the discussion around the A380 has gotten out of hands a long time ago. And it goes on...

It's not just the A380, it's any news that sheds a negative light on Airbus that gets dubious attention. And not only on Airliners.net.

But let's have a look at the good news first.

A quick search on yahoo news reveals 4 sources that mentioned Airbus latest pending order from Transaero.

The bad news. Ms. Tan's comments on the 'status' (afterwards softened by Mr. Clark) of EK's A380 order. 79 sources were happy to inform us about it.

http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/...position&fr2=sp-top&ei=UTF-8&x=wrt

http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/...nsaero+%2B+A330&ei=UTF-8&fr=&x=wrt


Boeing's latest order, the 32 738s for FR, is good for 76 links. The news is about a week younger than that of Transaero.

http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/...+%2B+32+%2B+737&ei=UTF-8&fr=&x=wrt
 
Areopagus
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:56 pm

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 41):
As for the MD-12 nonsense, what else is a four-engined double-decker supposed to look like? ... Had the MD-12 been proposed or not, the A380 was ALWAYS going to look like it does - because that's more-or-less the only design for a four-engined super-jumbo.

I would dispute your argument while supporting your underlying point. In fact, Airbus did consider some very different layouts before settling on the A380 design. The fact that the A380 ended up strongly resembling the MD-12 is the result of convergent engineering -- like the 707/DC-8 resemblance -- and not copying. See pp.3-4 of Europe's Giant for some alternative A3XX layouts, including side-by-side conjoined A340 fuselages, circular, and clover-leaf cross sections.
 
zvezda
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:16 pm

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 84):
See pp.3-4 of Europe's Giant for some alternative A3XX layouts, including side-by-side conjoined A340 fuselages, circular, and clover-leaf cross sections.

Thanks for that! I'd love to know the dimensions of the circular proposal.
 
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glideslope
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:35 pm

Quoting Findigenous (Thread starter):
it -The A380 is still, despite anything that has happened recently, inarguably the greatest civilian airliner project ever

OK, like the Concorde?
 bigthumbsup 
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Revelation
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:44 pm

Quoting Findigenous (Thread starter):
The A380 is still, despite anything that has happened recently, inarguably the greatest civilian airliner project ever.

It's becoming clear that A380 will be regarded as of the largest technological, business and management failures ever. It will definitely be one for the textbooks.

Quoting Findigenous (Thread starter):
The whole discussion has been blown out of proportion: yes, mistakes have been made at EADS, they are working day and night to resolve the issues.

You are making a big mistake if you think the A380's problems can be solved just with more hard work. Right now, the problem is that A380's design process is broken. Throwing more hard work at a broken process is futile. Luckily for Airbus, Streiff seems to understand this, and is trying to fix the process first.

Quoting Findigenous (Thread starter):
As long as Airbus reimburses all its A380 customers accordingly for the delays, what is all the noise about?

The real problem is customer faith. Suppose you put a down-payment down on a car, and it was delayed three or four times, and you kept reading in the newspaper that the manufacturer was having a hard time getting the model built correctly, would you be contented with some late payment fees and a good deal on an inferior loaner car? Would you be likely to do business with that manufacturer again?
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N328KF
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:49 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 87):
Suppose you put a down-payment down on a car, and it was delayed three or four times, and you kept reading in the newspaper that the manufacturer was having a hard time getting the model built correctly, would you be contented with some late payment fees and a good deal on an inferior loaner car? Would you be likely to do business with that manufacturer again?

It's not just that. Airlines buy airliners as a solution. Airbus now has several customers whose basic problems cannot be solved by money or additional smaller airframes, alone. These are the ones with slot constraints and the like. For some A380 customers, this airframe is probably a luxury. Some of them don't consider it as such. Now their business plan is seriously compromised.

Using your example, it's as if you had a large family (ten people) you had to transport and you felt your needs were best solved with a large van to transport everyone around at once. Instead, delivery of that van was delayed and you would now have to run two vehicles instead, but you only had room for one vehicle in your garage, and you would now have to pay for a second family member to get driving lessons.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
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Joni
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:05 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 5):
You assume, as do most Airbus cheerleaders that our argument against the A380 is based on the same foundation as yours, emotion. In reality most arguments against the A380 are simply based on statistics, trends and market realities.

In reality, emotion is what drives A380 critics to interpret those statistics in ways that put the A380 in bad light.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 5):
I suspect you know this, but the 787 has a completely different market then the A380. Market segmentation is something that customers need to understand in order to actually sell products that their customers want and need. With 400 orders for the 787 and the crown of fastest selling widebody ever, Boeing got the market segmentation right. With 150 orders for the A380 and break even far away (and getting farther away every day) it's also pretty clear Airbus didn't.

And here, emotion is what drives B787 fans to interpret statistics in ways that put that plane in a good light.

I predict that as the first A380s are delivered and this site is awash with pictures and trip reports, this doom&gloom will lift and people will begin to think better of the plane. It is, after all, the right plane for the world today as it moves people comfortably, cheaply, and with lower fuel burn than any other plane. It's also an excellent differentiator for airlines.
 
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N328KF
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:16 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 88):
In reality, emotion is what drives A380 critics to interpret those statistics in ways that put the A380 in bad light.

OK. Now think of the emotion that the heads of EK, SQ, QF, VS, etc. must be feeling about their interpretation of the ten-month new delay announcement?
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
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miamix707
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:31 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 28):
The engines also got larger and the wingtip fences magically returned, now that people had forgotten all about the MD12's looks as MD got swallowed by Boeing

I think I have the magazine somewhere with the MD12 article. How many pax was it going to carry?

Quoting Aviateur (Reply 42):
It may be an engineering marvel, but the Airbus A380 is, hands down, the *ugliest* jet airliner ever built. The extent of its ugliness didn't fully dawn on me until recently, seeing so many photos and videos of the thing finally aloft.

I wouldn't say it's THAT ugly, but the front part is just repulsive lol, don't like the tail either.

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 60):
The only thing to me that is even close to "wow" is how massivley huge the aircraft really is (and how ugly the nose is, rest of its fine to me).

Someone mentioned the nose was molded to look more like an A320..but was that the real reason it looks this way? Because that would have been stupid, seeing how ugly it came out. I'd like to think it was more for aerodynamic purposes.. although yikes.. couldn't it have been a little more pointed at least??!!!

Not because it's American, I'm sorry, but the MD-12 drawing looked sleeker and even graceful, especially in that MD paintscheme. When I saw the first A3XX I thought it looked more like a cow, that thing didn't look right. Ugly nose, tail too tall, plane too stubby, etc etc etc..

Quoting PVG (Reply 61):
I think that you need to go back a few years and look at the posts on this forum when Airbus was in it's glory and Boeing was having trouble. The Airbus guys was boasting left and right. They were going to own the world. The worst part was that Mr. Leahy & Co. were doing it as well. They were bigger better blah blah blah!!! In fact, all they did was use government assistance to buy 50% market share. They capitalized on their main competitors arrogance and the fact that most of their designs were from the 60's and 70's. So, they picked the low lying fruit (using modern methods to improve on old designs), offered competitive pricing, and were able to take market share. Now that they are (were?) the leader and need to innovate, they've been exposed.

I think that the main question is was the investment and time put into the development of the A380 the wisest use of company/shareholder capital? Did the world really need this plane? Having 20/20 hindsight, I don't see how anyone can answer yes to the question? This is not a high school science project. This is an issue on huge amounts of money, thousands of jobs, and use of resources (not only financial, but natural resources that cannot be replenished). I cannot come to the conclusion that Airbus made a wise choice. It was all about EGO and PRIDE, not based in reality and a realistic business model!

 checkmark 

I like the common sense approach, no matter what forecasts those iffy economic analysis are able to predict 10 years earlier. In the earlier days of the A380 Airbus stated there was going to be a need for up to 1000 VLAs when in reality most trans-atlantic (and even some Pacific) crossings nowadays are not done by 747s anymore but much smaller 777s, 767s and A330s.

Could it be possible, (even without a nose loading door) in the long run the A380 could end up as a more successful freighter?
 
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:44 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 87):
Using your example, it's as if you had a large family (ten people) you had to transport and you felt your needs were best solved with a large van to transport everyone around at once. Instead, delivery of that van was delayed and you would now have to run two vehicles instead, but you only had room for one vehicle in your garage, and you would now have to pay for a second family member to get driving lessons.

And, speaking of emotions, suppose your rival neighbor was going to get his family van a year ahead of you, instead of a few months as you were promised. He's going to show up at the church / club / mall / whatever with a shiny new van and a happy family all together, and you are going to show up with your well worn van and start looking for the rest of your family. Each month that goes by you are going to pay more for gas, insurance and maintenance, while you glower at the new van parked across the street. Meanwhile, your car dealer is collecting interest on the down payment you gave him a long time ago!
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Joni
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:47 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 89):
OK. Now think of the emotion that the heads of EK, SQ, QF, VS, etc. must be feeling about their interpretation of the ten-month new delay announcement?

Indeed, although the first delivery to SQ is still pencilled in for December this year, (and appears likely to take place in Dec06 or Jan07) with 2-3 further planes next year. (according to various sources) The ten month delay applies to deliveries to Emirates.
 
Findigenous
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:49 pm

I have now been hired as Airbus' new Talking Head and will continue to give you guys reliable updates in the near future. Thanks for participating  Smile
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:51 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 86):
It's becoming clear that A380 will be regarded as of the largest technological, business and management failures ever. It will definitely be one for the textbooks.

It's becoming painfully apparent that this is the state of the project today, Ladies and Gentlemen. As much as it's supporters would like to sugar coat it, realities are what they are.

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 72):
I think the controversy swirling around the A380 is very revealing of our culture. We Americans (except all of you who will chime in to say I don't speak for you--consider yourself exempted, and don't even bother!) have a deeply ingrained culture of competition, of being Number One, of being the best at everything we do, and more often than not, we may achieve this. This has become part of our identity as a nation and as a culture, and for the simpleminded it makes for a nice, comfortable world view. The A380, whatever its faults, clashes with that world view. It demands to be described in terms of superlatives, and yet there's no denying it wasn't invented here... hence all the bending over backwards to find a flaw, to find some basis upon which it isn't Number One, it isn't the best, and dwell upon that strenuously and for as long as possible.

If it really was just another airplane with a dubious economic case, it would be discussed, dismissed, and forgotten. The very level of noisy controversy generated by the A380, and the constant rehashing thereof, is revealing more of cultural attitudes and a deep-seated insecurity than it is of anything about the airplane itself.

Couldn't agree with this more. However, the "Mine is bigger than yours" business mentality behind the whole project has been the central focus of those of us who questioned it in the first place. Those "insecurities" that you mention are revelling themselves on both sides of the Pond. I'm sorry, but comparisons being made to Concorde are sounding more and more compelling.

[Edited 2006-10-03 15:05:27]
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
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autothrust
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:56 pm

Quoting Findigenous (Thread starter):
The A380 is still, despite anything that has happened recently, inarguably the greatest civilian airliner project ever, and it looks like many of you have hard time appreciating the fact.

I agree that the A380 is the biggest civillian project, just the size, resources,technologys,money, proves it and there are more then dozen sources which proves it.(like FI,Hazy etc..) By far its the most complex plane ever build and one can say the 747 or DC3 etc.. was bigger risk that may be true. However the A380 is the maximum size of project a Airline Manufacturer can do. Even Boeing would be at the end of capacity with a project of such a magnitude. I dare to say it was to big for Airbus.

This Thread should be deleted as the bashing of the A380 never will end, as long there are some "children" wishing Airbus fail, instead constructive criticism they have more fun to bash.

Quoting Terryb99 (Reply 4):
Other than being bigger, what great technology leap do we see here? Sorry, but many will argue that it is not such a great project, but still impressive when it finally goes into service.

This post shows that you dont have a clue, about the technology needed and integrated in the A380. I will not start to write about the technology's of the A380 have done a list already 2 times at Airliners. Maybe take a look at wiki.

Quoting Findigenous (Thread starter):
Further, no one who took the risk in ordering the A380 in the first place could have been so naive as to expect that there would be no delays, as there are always delays with ANY new plane.

Wrong, like in normal market a company which produces a product, it should deliver to a specified time without delays. Airbus shouldn't be a exception, although a "small"(like 4 months) delay would be ok at the complexity of project. For example to sort things out and deliver a matured poduct. But 2 and more years is really bad and is a shame.  Angry
Flown on: DC-9, MD-80, Fokker 100, Bae 146 Avro, Boeing 737-300, 737-400, 747-200, 747-300,747-400, 787-9, Airbus A310, A319, A320, A321, A330-200,A330-300, A340-313, A380, Bombardier CSeries 100/300, CRJ700ER/CRJ900, Embraer 190.
 
leelaw
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:58 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 94):
However, the "Mine is bigger than yours" business mentality behind the whole project has been the central focus of those of us who questioned it in the first place.

 checkmark 

Perhaps better characterized as my "cash cow" is bigger than your's?
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
Joni
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 86):
It's becoming clear that A380 will be regarded as of the largest technological, business and management failures ever. It will definitely be one for the textbooks.

At least SQ disagrees with you regarding the technological part of your statement:

Separately, Airbus has demonstrated to Singapore Airlines’ satisfaction that the engineering design of the A380 is sound. It has performed well in flight and certification tests, and the delays in its delivery have been caused more by production, rather than technical, issues.

source: http://www.singaporeair.com/saa/en_U...any_info/press_release/NE_3406.jsp

Managerially the production process has obviously partially failed, but the business case for the plane remains good and technically the plane is impressive.
 
PVG
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RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:46 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 97):
Managerially the production process has obviously partially failed, but the business case for the plane remains good and technically the plane is impressive.

Actually, I think that it could be obsolete sooner then we think. By the time that AirBus can deliver the thing in any reasonable quantity (which I think would be 3-5 units/per month by say 2009 or so(correct me if I'm wrong)) , Boeing could theoretically be designing and laying out the process to match or exceed the performance of the A380 with a new aircraft and start delivering it within 36-48 months after the A380 has starting producing at full production (if they ever can do this?). Therefore, if the market is really there, then Boeing will match or exceed. It's possible that they don't get much beyond 250-300 deliveries of the A380 (with a substantial number of those having been sold with launch customer discounts + late delivery penalties + unfavourable exchange rates) before the machine is exceeded by newer and better technology. I don't think that the business case is that great.
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: End Of The A380 Bashing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:11 pm

Quoting Findigenous (Reply 93):
I have now been hired as Airbus' new Talking Head and will continue to give you guys reliable updates in the near future. Thanks for participating

Don't spend all them euros in one place.

Laydeez and gennelmun, I give you........MAX HEADROOM




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