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DAYflyer
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EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:35 am

An interesting read.

Fair use:

Emirates Ready To Jettison Airbus?
Chris Noon, 10.04.06, 1:45 PM ET

Media reports have suggested that Middle Eastern airline Emirates, frustrated by further delays to the jinxed Airbus A380 program, is close to cancelling at least half of its orders for the aircraft and is discussing with Boeing terms for an initial order of approximately 20 of their 747-8s.

The Boeing 747-8 is penciled in for 2009; Airbus has promised Emirates it will take delivery of its first superjumbo in August 2008.

Why would Emirates cancel half of their order for a larger plane that is supposed to arrive earlier? The answer could lie in the duality of Emirates' make-up. It is a carrier funded entirely by oil money and owned by the royal family. However, its senior management, such as Chief Executive Tim Clark, is almost entirely British. It is likely that the royal family lost patience with Airbus and feels insulted by not being properly kept up-to-date with the delivery problems. Clark is no doubt hopping mad as well, since he surely gave the royal family a lot of guarantees that are now worthless.

Emirates may need the extra capacity right away or even by 2008, but to be the first to operate both the largest Airbus and the largest Boeing is something which would mean little to Clark and everything to the airline's owners, whose avowed aim is to make Emirates the airline of choice in the Middle East.

"It's more of a cultural than capacity issue. The royal family feels insulted. Never a good strategic move if you want to do business with them," says Doug McVitie, a former Airbus employee and managing director of the France-based Arran Aerospace consultancy.


Link
http://www.forbes.com/2006/10/04/air...ity-cx_cn_1004markets07_print.html
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:37 am

The writing is certainly on the wall, isn't it?
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NYC777
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:39 am

If true then it's happening quite fast. This is a punishment deal for Airbus and it's obviously something that EK has engaged with Boeing for sometime if it happens in the next couple of weeks. I suspect that VS will be doing the same quite soon as well.

Who else will put the A380 on the chopping block in favor of the 748I?
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DAYflyer
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:39 am

A order for 20 frames from this carrier would be highly significant.
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Stitch
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:40 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Thread starter):
The answer could lie in the duality of Emirates' make-up. It is a carrier funded entirely by oil money and owned by the royal family.

Is this true? I've heard it raised by some on this board, only to have it vehemently denied by many others.

Quoting DAYflyer (Thread starter):
Emirates may need the extra capacity right away or even by 2008, but to be the first to operate both the largest Airbus and the largest Boeing is something which would mean little to Clark and everything to the airline's owners, whose avowed aim is to make Emirates the airline of choice in the Middle East.

This makes far more sense to me in support of a 748I order instead of the "cultural issue". I believe it truly is a "capacity" issue and unless EK was scheduled to get 45 A380s in a row (which I highly doubt), EK may have to wait until the mid-2010s to get their entire fleet (assuming Airbus actually can ramp up to 45 planes annually by 2010) and as such may require the 748I just to meet their traffic needs.

Still, I think push comes to shove EK would take more 773ERs instead of 748Is if they want to reduce their A380 exposure. However, Boeing is probably quite willing to cut EK a better deal on 20 748Is then 20 773ERs to secure them as a launch customer.
 
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Still, I think push comes to shove EK would take more 773ERs instead of 748Is if they want to reduce their A380 exposure. However, Boeing is probably quite willing to cut EK a better deal on 20 748Is then 20 773ERs to secure them as a launch customer.

If Boeing were very, very smart, this is exactly the kind of agressive position they would take, IMO.
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 5):
f Boeing were very, very smart, this is exactly the kind of agressive position they would take, IMO.

I think they are very, very smart. If they do not make such a move, they probably have some reason we don't know about. Boeing is making all the right moves lately.
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:50 am

I wonder if the 787 would have any play in all of this. This is especially important in the light that the A350 will more than likely be delayed to 2013-2014. Boeing could make them a good deal for 748I and 787-10 and also provide some nice interim lift in the form of 773ER in '08-'10 to make up their capacity shortfall.
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Stitch
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:53 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
I wonder if the 787 would have any play in all of this. This is especially important in the light that the A350 will more than likely be delayed to 2013-2014. Boeing could make them a good deal for 748I and 787-10 and also provide some nice interim lift in the form of 773ER in '08-'10 to make up their capacity shortfall.

If the 787-10 meets EK's demands, such a "package deal" could possibly be very appealing to EK.

Yet, I wonder if Boeing didn't offer the same (with the 787-9 instead of or in addition to the 787-10) to SQ, who then didn't take them up on it...
 
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:55 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
I wonder if the 787 would have any play in all of this.

I doubt it since the plane wont be available until 2011 due to sold out production slots, and the -10 wont be ready until 2012; they could get a good price on the 777-200 and it have it way before then.

[Edited 2006-10-04 20:56:31]
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NYC777
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
Yet, I wonder if Boeing didn't offer the same (with the 787-9 instead of or in addition to the 787-10) to SQ, who then didn't take them up on it...

They (SQ) were probably waiting for more info on the A350 redesign at the time. They are (so far) are going with the A350-900 which is meant to compete with the 787-10. I think that deal is at risk and if Boeing does finally launch the -10 then I could see SQ exercising their 20 option for the -10 and letting the A350 LoI expire.
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:05 am

I had never seen a chance for a B747 pax order by EK, but the latest development has changed the game. I wouldn't rule out anything now. EK could indeed punish Airbus for the screw-up.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Is this true? I've heard it raised by some on this board, only to have it vehemently denied by many others.

Well, many projects in Dubai were once funded with oil money - which doesn't mean they are still dependant from it. That's the difference.


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NYC777
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:08 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 11):
Well, many projects in Dubai were once funded with oil money - which doesn't mean they are still dependant from it. That's the difference.

True, they (Dubai) are trying to transform themselves so that they are less dependent on oil revenue and have a more broad based trade and tourism related economy.
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Thread starter):
The Boeing 747-8 is penciled in for 2009; Airbus has promised Emirates it will take delivery of its first superjumbo in August 2008.

I thought the 747-8I was scheduled for first delivery in 2010 at the earliest. And given the already sizeable backlog for the -8F, it don't know it there will be a lot of Intercontinentals to be delivered before 2011.
 
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:12 am

Being a Boeing fan my first thoughts on reading this title subject was 'great', but, I am starting to feel for Airbus big time, they are a great company, and I hate to see them in this mess, its quite upsetting really, I deal with Airbus on a daily basis and they are so good, always available to provide you with assistance no matter how busy they seem to be, there a really nice bunch of people.

However, EK on the other hand said the following statement not long ago

''''Boeing, dont mess about with expanding / re-designing the 7478, leave it to Airbus, they have the A380 king of the skies'''''

Something along those lines anyway, I was quite angry when I read that, and here they are, in trouble.

Plus, I belive they were waiting for proposals for the A350 before ordering the 787, now not only has the A350 been delayed and also in the 're-designed' stage, the production stage for the 787 is now up to around 2012/13, because of its popularity

Onl my own opinion

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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:15 am

I certainly wouldn't rule out a 747-8I order and since the A350XWB probably doesn't stand a dog's chance now at Emirates, a combination of a 747-8I and 787-10 launch deal can't be ruled out.

That would be quite a coup - it's very rare that one airline launches two new models simultaneously, and you can bet Boeing would give them a very good deal to do so. EK has also ordered the 747-8IF, so it's not as if it's going to be a completely new model for them.

The only cloud (or more fairly, one of the main ones), is that Airbus is also trying to cancel the A340-600s it has on order; if it goes and cancels around 20 A380s (I absolutely don't think they'll cancel all of them), won't that put them in a disadvantageous position when negotiating re the A340 deposits?
 
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:16 am

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DAYflyer
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:16 am

Quoting UA777300ER (Reply 13):
I thought the 747-8I was scheduled for first delivery in 2010 at the earliest. And given the already sizeable backlog for the -8F, it don't know it there will be a lot of Intercontinentals to be delivered before 2011.

I think it has more to do with the punishment issue than the 747 delivery schedule.

This is from the Boeing website for the 747-8:

Cargolux will add the first 747-8 Freighter to its all-Boeing fleet of 747 freighters in third-quarter 2009, followed by NCA in fourth-quarter 2009.
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Stitch
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:16 am

Quoting UA777300ER (Reply 13):
I thought the 747-8I was scheduled for first delivery in 2010 at the earliest. And given the already sizable backlog for the -8F, it don't know it there will be a lot of Intercontinentals to be delivered before 2011.

Boeing could probably both increase development efforts and production quotas to bringing the 748I to market in 2009 if orders warranted it.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:19 am

I think that since the 747-8 is already on order with EK they could possibly convert some of those to the 8I pax version and be ahead of the game that way.
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Stitch
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 15):
The only cloud (or more fairly, one of the main ones), is that Airbus is also trying to cancel the A340-600s it has on order; if it goes and cancels around 20 A380s...won't that put them in a disadvantageous position when negotiating re the A340 deposits?

It depends on how all the contracts are written and what the amounts entail. I really don't believe we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars here, so I'd like to think Boeing be willing to eat a few tens of millions (if even that) on an order for 20 748s and 50 787s (and perhaps scores of 777s) to allow EK to write a check to Airbus to cover their lost deposits from cancelling their orders.
 
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 15):
I certainly wouldn't rule out a 747-8I order and since the A350XWB probably doesn't stand a dog's chance now at Emirates, a combination of a 747-8I and 787-10 launch deal can't be ruled out.

Emirates is too late on the 787 to be considered a launch customer, though they would be a 787-10 launch customer.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 15):
That would be quite a coup - it's very rare that one airline launches two new models simultaneously, and you can bet Boeing would give them a very good deal to do so. EK has also ordered the 747-8IF, so it's not as if it's going to be a completely new model for them.

I dunno, look at the 737 and 747. UA, SK/BU, and LH all ordered the 737 and 747 within close timeframes.

P.S. It's just 747-8F, not 747-8IF.
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:26 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 9):
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
I wonder if the 787 would have any play in all of this.

I doubt it since the plane wont be available until 2011 due to sold out production slots, and the -10 wont be ready until 2012; they could get a good price on the 777-200 and it have it way before then.

Boeing is just looking for an excuse to open a second 787 line. A large EK order would be the tipping point I think. That would open up a lot of early delivery slots and that would in turn result in more orders.
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DAYflyer
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 22):
Boeing is just looking for an excuse to open a second 787 line. A large EK order would be the tipping point I think. That would open up a lot of early delivery slots and that would in turn result in more orders.

A good point, but would the supply chain handle the load of a second 787 line? There has been some doubt about that recently.
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MCIGuy
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 22):
Boeing is just looking for an excuse to open a second 787 line. A large EK order would be the tipping point I think. That would open up a lot of early delivery slots and that would in turn result in more orders.

Hmmm, velly intelesting. 787-3, 787-8 and 787-9 on one line, 787-10 on another?

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 23):
A good point, but would the supply chain handle the load of a second 787 line? There has been some doubt about that recently.

Yeah, that has seemed to be the "X factor" here. But then again, money talks.  Smile
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DAYflyer
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:40 am

I wonder if Ek would take those A-340-600's really really cheap to help grow the capacity until the 380 comes along?
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drgmobile
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:45 am

The answer could lie in the duality of Emirates' make-up. It is a carrier funded entirely by oil money and owned by the royal family.

This is a brash statement that I suspect is not backed up by any facts or evidence. I've emailed the writer.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:47 am

I'sn't UAE one of those states where 95% of the work force is foreign because the Sheik takes care of everyone and spreads the oil/natural gas money around?
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jfk777
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:53 am

This Boeing favorite scenario come true. If EK were to order 20 748i passenger airplanes, Boeing would say "launched, see in Dubai in 3 years". They would almost give away the airplanes to get the timid customers coming afterwards. Its more interesting to see #2 and #3, could Cathay, British Airways, Jal, or ANA be next ? I certainly hope they all do. Order the Dom...
 
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:54 am

I read in a local newspaper that EK might as well order the jumbojet and T7 without cancelling any of the A380's. I don't know how much of this is true but if it is, I would love to see a 747-8i in EK colours!
 
drgmobile
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:55 am

I'sn't UAE one of those states where 95% of the work force is foreign because the Sheik takes care of everyone and spreads the oil/natural gas money around?

And your point is? Just because the government has lots of money, it doesn't mean the carrier is subsidized. There are plenty of real estate projects for the government to throw its money at.

It's time for folks to put up or shut up. Where's the evidence that Emirates is subsidized and not simply a very successful carrier with a great product a loyal following and a home government that gets out of the way?
 
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 27):
I'sn't UAE one of those states where 95% of the work force is foreign because the Sheik takes care of everyone and spreads the oil/natural gas money around?

Yes, I worked there for 4 weeks training guys going to Iraq.

Construction workers are from India.
Hotel workers tend to be from the Phillipines and Russia.
The hookers are from China. (That was a surprise, nope, didn't try one out, 200 bucks for a Chinese hooker was pretty pricey.)

The "guest workers" (quotes mine) are actually indentured servants. They are sponsored by a company and not allowed to change companies/jobs without being in violation of the law and deported. Also interestingly, many people that want to return to India, abandone their jobs, wait a certain period of time, then turn themselves into Immigration for a free ticket home and no jail time (from the press in DXB).

Incredible country, pure oil boom, they are building a 800 meter tower. Indoor ski slopes...

We may see A with an A380 product and very few customers, I'd hate to piss of a family worth many billions of dollars. Any predictions that A's A380 sales number is less then 100 at In Service date?

(edited to say something on topic)

[Edited 2006-10-04 22:03:16]
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QFSYD744
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:00 am

Isnt it, if it does happen, going to be more like 40 747-800?
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Lumberton
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 17):
think it has more to do with the punishment issue than the 747 delivery schedule.



Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 11):
I had never seen a chance for a B747 pax order by EK, but the latest development has changed the game. I wouldn't rule out anything now. EK could indeed punish Airbus for the screw-up.

Wasn't long ago that all the talk of "punishment" from EK was for Boeing in retaliation for the aborted Dubai Ports deal. I've seen the articles referring to possible "punishment", but my take is that if EK were to order the 748I it would be to hedge their bets since they feel they need the capacity. Unfortunately, for Airbus, GE, Pratt & Whitney, and a lot of other U.S. activities that participate in the A380 program, this would most likely entail the cancellation (or deferral, or conversion to options) of a portion (not all, no way!) of their A380 order.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 19):
I think that since the 747-8 is already on order with EK they could possibly convert some of those to the 8I pax version and be ahead of the game that way.

IIRC when they ordered 777s at last year's Dubai Airshow, they also optioned around 20. Perhaps we'll see these converted into firm orders?
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Boeing Nut
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:15 am

This is all speculation at this point. As with anything else in this industry, I'll believe it when I see it.

One option that Boeing could use to grab EK's attention is to team up with Thopmson Solutions to add one more seat per row on the 748i. Using the latest Boeing standard seating arrngement for the 748i utilizing crown space storage, which IIRC the latest count was 469, Thopmsons Solutions for economy class could push capacity to over 500 passengers. This could raise an eyebrow at EK.

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jacobin777
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 23):
A good point, but would the supply chain handle the load of a second 787 line? There has been some doubt about that recently.

Not to mention, I'm sure Boeing is concerned about the "boom/bust" part of the cycle....that being said, I think if they get enough carriers on board for the -10, they could open a second line....
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 33):
Unfortunately, for Airbus, GE, Pratt & Whitney, and a lot of other U.S. activities that participate in the A380 program, this would most likely entail the cancellation (or deferral, or conversion to options) of a portion (not all, no way!) of their A380 order.

Many of the suppliers are the same. In the case of GE-Aviation, I am guessing that they would be happier with a 100% share of 20×4 GEnx turbofans than 50% share of 20×4 GP7200s.
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
I suspect that VS will be doing the same quite soon as well.

Don't forget the Chinese, who ordered WhaleJets for prestige at the olympics.
 
Lumberton
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 36):
Many of the suppliers are the same. In the case of GE-Aviation, I am guessing that they would be happier with a 100% share of 20×4 GEnx turbofans than 50% share of 20×4 GP7200s.

Hmmm...another way of looking at it for sure, but what about poor Pratt?
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 38):
Hmmm...another way of looking at it for sure, but what about poor Pratt?

It's business, not corporate welfare. Try telling that to the French and German governments and to SOGEADE and SEPI.  Wink
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BoomBoom
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting Boeing nut (Reply 34):
One option that Boeing could use to grab EK's attention is to team up with Thopmson Solutions to add one more seat per row on the 748i.

Fascinating! Is any airline actually using this system?

I would love to try it.
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TeamAmerica
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
Yet, I wonder if Boeing didn't offer the same (with the 787-9 instead of or in addition to the 787-10) to SQ, who then didn't take them up on it...

Airbus owed SQ compensation, and very likely offered them a premium on the amount owed in the form of deeper discounts on A380. B748 would have the same problem at EK; can Boeing profitably sell a B748i cheaper than an A380 that Airbus admits is being built at a loss?

Angry as EK may be, the A380's they receive are going to be CHEAP, and that's hard to walk away from.
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 37):
Don't forget the Chinese, who ordered WhaleJets for prestige at the olympics.

If they cancel, that won't be the reason. Even with the delivery schedule before this latest cock-up, they were not going to get them in time, and yet they didn't cancel.
 
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:55 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 11):
EK could indeed punish Airbus for the screw-up.

You know, EK could be doing Airbus a favor by cancelling some of the A380s.

1. Ease pressure of delivery for Airbus.
2. Aibus would loose less per copy because of the cheap prices contracted with EK.
Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
 
MCIGuy
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:03 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 41):
Angry as EK may be, the A380's they receive are going to be CHEAP, and that's hard to walk away from.

True, but they won't get their later A380's until well after the 748 EIS. It may well be that they actually need the capacity before then. They may have crunched the numbers and found that the lost revenue from lack of capacity is a bigger number than the savings on A380's due to delays.
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NYC777
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:04 am

I'm sure John Leah is absolutely shitting in his pants at the thought of a partial cancel of the A380 and order of the 748I. It's out of his hands though. I think the guards at EK headquarters has a picture of Leahy along with orders to shoot him on sight!
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
leelaw
Posts: 4517
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 42):
Even with the delivery schedule before this latest cock-up, they were not going to get them in time, and yet they didn't cancel.

IIRC, after the second major program delay was announced last June, Mr. Leahy claimed that China Southern would still receive delivery of at least some aircraft prior to the Olympic Games in 2008.
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N328KF
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RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:07 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 45):
I'm sure John Leah is absolutely shitting in his pants at the thought of a partial cancel of the A380 and order of the 748I. It's out of his hands though. I think the guards at EK headquarters has a picture of Leahy along with orders to shoot him on sight!

I doubt Leahy's very much to blame. For starters, I bet he had little knowledge of this, let alone direct involvement. I think the blame for this lays directly at the feet of Forgeard and the various heads of EADS' binational structure.

[Edited 2006-10-04 23:07:53]
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
NYC777
Posts: 5104
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 46):
Mr. Leahy claimed that China Southern would still receive delivery of at least some aircraft prior to the Olympic Games in 2008

Not anymore they're not.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
NYC777
Posts: 5104
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: EK Ready To Order 20 747-8?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 47):
I doubt Leahy's very much to blame. For starters, I bet he had little knowledge of this, let alone direct involvement. I think the blame for this lays directly at the feet of Forgeard and the various heads of EADS' binational structure.

i was talking from the perspective of sales. and the impact a major customer defection would have on pitching more A380s to other airlines.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.

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