GoBlue
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The Possibility of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:10 pm

In the new airliner world, there is talk of embraer stretching there E-jets to accomodate more passengers, and more seats. With AC's retirement of many airbus scheduled over the next few years, i believe almost 20 are slated to be returned to lessor, is there a cnahce that AC would be interested in some of these models. i beleive the largest would seat 130 pax

Thoughts? I can see this happenign out west, and on some inter provincial flying as more frequencies and smaller planes can make it more convenant for flyers, and also adds more oppourtunity for inter-canada point to point!
 
Tangowhisky
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The Possibility of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:25 pm

That would mean adding 3 more rows to the E-195 to go from 118 seat to 130 seats. This is possible, but I did read 2-3 weeks ago that an Embraer VP saying they had no plans to go into the 120 plus seat market segment.

But if they do decide to build it, then the E-195X can be a replacement aircraft for 732,733, MD80, F100s. The B736 and A318 would be a waste of money to replace these aging planes with. If Embraer can position the E-190/195/195X a mainline plane in the 90-130 seat segment, they could certainly milk this segment. The only problem is that the 195X would be range limited unless they make major wing and structural changes to add more fuel and significantly increase MTOW.
Only the paranoid survive
 
DAYflyer
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The Possibility of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:30 pm

I think EMB should do this. There is a lot of potential to replace the early 737, MD80 series and the F-100.....

That EMB 170-195 series is one hell of a plane. Efficient, right size and passsenger have a very strong preference for it over the CRJ series.
One Nation Under God
 
osiris30
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The Possibility of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:45 pm

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 1):
This is possible, but I did read 2-3 weeks ago that an Embraer VP saying they had no plans to go into the 120 plus seat market segment.

They go over 120 seats they become and enemy for Boeing and Airbus pretty quickly. I don't think Embraer wants to play that game just yet.
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Tangowhisky
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The Possibility of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 6):
They go over 120 seats they become and enemy for Boeing and Airbus pretty quickly. I don't think Embraer wants to play that game just yet.

Agreed. But Embraer is already an enemy to A&B. The E-190/195 are in the 90-118 seat segment as the A318/736 are in the 108-118 seat segment. By stretching the 195, they could piss off A&B, but there is very little A&B can do as stretching the 195 is a marginal costs to Embraer and could be done in 2 years. Even iif A&B say they are thinking of launching a 80-130 seat Junior Y1 with the 150-200 seat Standard Y1, the airlines can not wait another 7-10 years to replace 732, 733, MD-80s, F100s, DC-9s.

This is why the C Series has less of a chance as A&B say it is an interim plane because in 7-10 years they will have Y1, as the C Series would take 5 yrs to hit the market, and therefore not aprreciable by airlines looking at 100-130 seaters today.
Only the paranoid survive
 
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yyz717
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The Possibility of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:34 am

AC is retiring 16 32x aircraft (3x319, 10x320, 3x321) in conjunction with their addition of 45 E190's, so the E190 WILL partially replace the AC 32x fleet. AC will still be left with ~90 32x aircraft.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 7):
The E-190/195 are in the 90-118 seat segment as the A318/736 are in the 108-118 seat segment. By stretching the 195, they could piss off A&B, but there is very little A&B can do as stretching the 195 is a marginal costs to Embraer and could be done in 2 years.

If the E195 can be stretched, Embraer will move clearly into 736/73G and 318/319 territory. Whether A&B get pissed off is irrelevant. If the market is there, E should do it. There is no rule that a manufacturer cannot move into A&B territory. A&B cannot compete with the 736/318 anyway.

Interestingly, the E195 has not been a strong seller. No large order has been placed. The smaller E190 has had more success.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Salomon
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The Possibility of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:47 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 8):
AC is retiring 16 32x aircraft (3x319, 10x320, 3x321) in conjunction with their addition of 45 E190's

Are those 3 A321s the 3 ex-Air France returned a while ago?
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GoBlue
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The Possibility of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 8):
AC is retiring 16 32x aircraft (3x319, 10x320, 3x321) in conjunction with their addition of 45 E190's, so the E190 WILL partially replace the AC 32x fleet. AC will still be left with ~90 32x aircraft.

Thank you for that information, i was just stating that with the new information out in this months airliner world about embraer, i can see a lot of new embraers replacing some of the airbus's on routes. As there are a lot of planes flying at less then capacity as it is the only plane they have at the moment. Ac is trying to "right size" many markets.

The new additions of seats to the embraer's will definetly step on the toes of A&B, but personally i think they need a good kick in the rear to redevelop or change both the 737-600 and A318, which in my opinion were poorly planned aircraft for the segments in which they are meant to fly.
 
ksupilot
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The Possibility of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:03 am

It would be a good idea. As it was stated above, a stretch could be completed rather quickly. They could use the 195X to test the waters and then create a true LRJ family based off of the E-Jets.
Maybe something that covers the 120-150 seat market. In a way they will create a 717-100, a 717-200 replacement, and the never built 717-300. F9 is going to eventually need a 717 replacement.

But before they make such a larger jump, a stretch of the E-195 would be a good test and a nice first step into the smaller narrowbody market.
 
MCOflyer
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The Possibility of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:12 am

I beleve the A321 are the ex- AF birds. Glad to see AC retiring A32X w/ addition of E series.

MCOflyer
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9252fly
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The Possibility of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:13 am

A few years ago during the AC restructuring process,the plan was to reduce to A320 family by 30 units over a period from 2005-2009. At the time the fleet was about 112 units(52-A320,48-A319 and 12-A321). The plan also included the removal of all the B762 units by 2007,that part of the plan is running a little bit behind schedule. The widebody fleet was targeted at about 60 units for the period. The 70-75 and 90-100 seat aircraft plan called for 45 units each(including Jazz).
 
Tangowhisky
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The Possibility of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 11):
It would be a good idea. As it was stated above, a stretch could be completed rather quickly. They could use the 195X to test the waters and then create a true LRJ family based off of the E-Jets.

Exactly. And by then, or a few years after the 195X comes into service, Boeing will have to show its hands on the Y1*. If Y1 is strictly a 150-200+ seater, or will it come with a 90-130 seat smaller brother or sister? then Embraer can launch a true 120-150 seat family, like the C Series with 5 across seating if Boeing stay clear of the 90-130 seat market - a 737-600 fiddle does not work.

* Boeing's Randy and alike are doing a lot of talk these days about a large RJ (80-130 seats), we will see if the "talk" is just talk in order to discourage Bombardier and Embraer or are they serious about getting there. We will find out in a few years once they come clean and show their hand a la Y1.
Only the paranoid survive
 
ksupilot
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The Possibility of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:29 am

To me, the question of a E-195 stretch is not a question of if but when. Being this close to A and B it just makes sense to take the extra step.

A E-195 would work great...Boeing is distracted with the 787/747-8. Airbus is busy with the A380/A350. They are both ignoring the LRJ market atleast for another 10 years. Embraer can get some experience now with the stretch and have an answer when it comes time for Boeing's Y1.
 
ksupilot
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The Possibility of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:31 am

Wow!

Just saw this thread:
Embraer Studying 200 Series Aircraft (by Dougbr2006 Oct 6 2006 in Civil Aviation)

 Smile
 
chrisa330
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The Possibility of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 12):
I beleve the A321 are the ex- AF birds. Glad to see AC retiring A32X w/ addition of E series

The ex-AF A321s have been out of the fleet for a while. 2 are operating with OK and the other with RJ.
 
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yyz717
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The Possibility of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:05 am

Quoting Salomon (Reply 9):
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 8):
AC is retiring 16 32x aircraft (3x319, 10x320, 3x321) in conjunction with their addition of 45 E190's

Are those 3 A321s the 3 ex-Air France returned a while ago?

No, those have already left the fleet. That reduced the 321 fleet from 13 to 10. Another 3 are planned to be removed from service in the next 2 years, leaving 7 321.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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longhauler
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The Possibility of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 19):
No, those have already left the fleet. That reduced the 321 fleet from 13 to 10. Another 3 are planned to be removed from service in the next 2 years, leaving 7 321.

The original fleet plan has changed quite a few times since the original plan upon exiting CCAA. The main factors in the change in narrow body plans are the demise of both Jetsgo and Canjet.

The last plan I saw showed the A321 fleet remaining at 10 aircraft until at least 2011. The reduction of three was in fact the return of the ex-AF aircraft. While fine aircraft in their own right, with the difference in cabin layout and lower MGTOW, they didn't fit well in the fleet.

It appears there will be a reduction of a further 2 A320s and 5 A319s over the next 12 months. Further reduction is subject to review.

The decision to equip some E190s for overwater flights up to 75 minutes, (like 5 A320s and 5 A319s) will have the E190 doing some of the A319 flying to Inner Caribbean destinations.
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yyz717
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The Possibility of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:05 am

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 20):
The last plan I saw showed the A321 fleet remaining at 10 aircraft until at least 2011. The reduction of three was in fact the return of the ex-AF aircraft. While fine aircraft in their own right, with the difference in cabin layout and lower MGTOW, they didn't fit well in the fleet.

Interesting, thanks. I was going from the last Annual Report for the 3x 321 removal.

The 5x320 removal in Dec/Mar is from aerotransport.org.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
multimark
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The Possibility of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:09 am

How does the E-jet compare to the A320 family for cargo capacity though?
 
bmacleod
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The Possibility of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:44 am

Quoting GoBlue (Thread starter):
With AC's retirement of many airbus scheduled over the next few years

That's news to me.  boggled 

I haven't heard of any plans for them to retire their narrow-bodied airbuses, especially after the recent XM refurbishment program.

Where are you hearing these rumors?
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AC_B777
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The Possibility of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:13 am

Quoting Multimark (Reply 23):
How does the E-jet compare to the A320 family for cargo capacity though?

It's not great. It is by far the hardest plane I and many other rampers have worked! While I have'nt seen any bulkout situations happen in YYT, I know they are a common occurance in YYZ and YUL.
The cargo doors are relatively small so large/long pieces of freight can't be loaded. Also, we try and load all the bags on first starting with the front hold first and the moving to the rear due to the CoG of the a/c. This leaves very little room in the forward hold to load cargo. Usually, in my experiance, by the time we get all the luggage on, there is very little room left for cargo unless we have some small stuff or things that must ride.
It's going to be hard to fill that cargo capacity on the Ejets compared with the Airbus.
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sebring
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RE: The Possibility Of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:53 am

Air Canada brass will tell you that they have been trying for almost five years now to plug a hole in the fleet left by the retirement of the DC-9. The DC-9, with 92 passengers IIRC, was a nice workhorse aircraft for runs of up to three hours, which is why they have survived as long as they have - going on 35-40 years now for many - in the world's commercial fleet. AC realized they were fuel and maintenance pigs in their dotage, but didn't like the 717 as a replacement because of issues with range in particular. The 717 was conceived for US carrier hub requirements, whereas AC wanted a 90-seater with longer range to be able to long thin routes. It tried to mount some of these long thin routes with 319s, but those planes have too high a block hour cost if you are getting only 60-70 passengers on a flight. The block hour cost for the E-190 is lower than that of a 319, and AC has configured the 190 to be comfortable and fun (33" pitch in economy, with IFE at every seat). AC is flying the 190 from Toronto to the West Coast.

For all of the above, it has been anticipated that a fleet rightsizing will occur, with some Airbus aircraft being returned to lessors. The 319s are hardly old. The 321s are fairly new, as are some 320s. With the 190s, I don't see AC under any urgency to retire more Airbus narrowbodies than it is projecting. All the attention is going now towards renewing and refurbishing the widebody fleet.
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: The Possibility Of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 20):
It's not great. It is by far the hardest plane I and many other rampers have worked!

I hear ya! Though we don't see the E-jets much in YYC. Many people find this hard to believe but the fastest turning narrowbody at mainline AC is the 320 thanks to the fact they are containerized. 319's are bulk loaded so it takes a little longer. The E-190 is a bulk loaded nightmare. Awkward cargo doors, puny and long cargo pit etc. etc. Embraer should have done more work in the design process to make loading/unloading more efficient.

Kris
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: The Possibility Of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:23 pm

A stretch in the E-Jets would require Embraer to look at some interior modifications as well. Currently the Interiors of AC's Embraers in terms of galley layout and lavatory deployment are identical.

While the specs work well on the E175 from a galley/catering point of view, it's a bit of a stretch when the E190 operates 5 hour segments such as YYZ-PHX/YYZ-YLW from a provisioning point of view. A further addition of seats would necessitate AC (and others) along with Embraer to rethink current galley designs, even in spite of B.O.B. catering on board.

The greater issue is the lavatory issue. Again, lav deployment for the 175/190 is identical. One up front for J/C and one aft for Y/C. Even though AVOD is interestingly keeping people in their seats, 1 lav per 84 Y/C pax is tight, let alone a stretched version of the aircraft.
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longhauler
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RE: The Possibility Of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:46 am

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 23):
YYZ-PHX/YYZ-YLW

Is the E190 double catered for these long turns?
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
777YYC
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RE: The Possibility Of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:31 pm

I'm flying YYC-YUL in November and its E190 both ways. Looking at the sched, in October its a mix of 319s and E90s and then in November its all E90. So it looks like Embraer has replaced Airbus on this route.

PS:

I've come out of hibernation, this is my first post in probably two years.
 
PEK18R36L
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RE: The Possibility Of AC Replacing Airbus With Embraer?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:58 pm

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 4):
Even iif A&B say they are thinking of launching a 80-130 seat Junior Y1 with the 150-200 seat Standard Y1, the airlines can not wait another 7-10 years to replace 732, 733, MD-80s, F100s, DC-9s.

Wasn't AQ doing an eval on the E190 as a 732 replacement? Any word on how it went?

I'd bet the awkward baggage load issue would be a problem for a resort airline like AQ. "Sorry sir, we couldn't load your surfboard/waterski/dive bag. We left it in HNL. Enjoy your stay on Kauai."

David
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