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BamMargera
Topic Author
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5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:47 pm

Hello, i recently came across this picture, and i was just wondering why they carry this 5th engine ?

http://eu.airliners.net/photos/middle/9/2/4/0289429.jpg

Cheers
 bigthumbsup 
 
flydreamliner
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:49 pm

the 747 can carry an engine out on the wing for transport. It can't be used, but to transport the engine from one place to another it can be attached out there.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
dogfighter2111
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:50 pm

Heya,

It is a replacement engine for another aircraft presumably, it is more than likley the fastest and cheapest option for the airline to get the engine out to an awaiting aircraft.

Thanks
Mike
 
bill142
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:51 pm

It's one of those ones which they let the work experience kid work on.

As said above, it's transporting a spare engine. Do correct me if I'm wrong but I believe they cannot carry pax when doing so.
 
snaiks
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:57 pm

is that engine operational in flight? giving more thrust?
 
qantas787
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:01 pm

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 3):

They may have changed the rules but in 1975 on my first trip to England the BA 747 carried an extra engine. In all my flying since I haven't seen it again.
G'day
 
flydreamliner
Posts: 1928
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:05 pm

Quoting Snaiks (Reply 4):
is that engine operational in flight? giving more thrust?

No. It is in no way connected to fuel or flight controls. It's just payload.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 3):
It's one of those ones which they let the work experience kid work on.

As said above, it's transporting a spare engine. Do correct me if I'm wrong but I believe they cannot carry pax when doing so.

Really, I believe we have some photos in the database on flights taken by PAX on Qantas flights with those bolted on, but I could be wrong.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
tu204
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:06 pm

As far as I know they are allowed to carry passengers. But don't they ussualy have it in an aerodynamic pod? Like a thing that covers the intake so it does not windmill?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
flydreamliner
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:13 pm

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 7):
As far as I know they are allowed to carry passengers. But don't they ussualy have it in an aerodynamic pod? Like a thing that covers the intake so it does not windmill?

I've never seen one. It's just been hanging out there every time i've seen it.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
il75
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:22 pm

Excuse my ignorance, but which one is the extra engine of those three? My guess is the middle one but I am far from sure  Embarrassment
 
EI787
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:28 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):
Really, I believe we have some photos in the database on flights taken by PAX on Qantas flights with those bolted on, but I could be wrong.

Here's the pic:


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Photo © Steve Ruttley



(It's identical to the pic in the first post)
 
BamMargera
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:31 pm

The 5th engine is the inner one, kinda tucked under the wing.
 
safs
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:12 pm

It occurs quite frequently when a carrier requires another engine at destination.


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Tristarsteve
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:23 pm

Quoting Safs (Reply 12):
It occurs quite frequently when a carrier requires another engine at destination

I think it is better to say that it was a frequent occurance in the past, but is quite rare nowadays. On the B747-200/300, the 3 engine ferry range was quite poor and it was necessary to pod an engine out to replace the engine on site. This was carried on a normal schedule service with pax on board. On the B744 the 3 engine ferry range is quite good, so it is normal now to ferry the aircraft to the base where the spare engine is. In fact most B744 do not have the ability to carry a fifth pod.
The Tristar was also capable of carrying a spare engine, but we did not use it often because it entailed range limitations and flying at a reduced VMO which caused delays to the service. It was only used in emergency.
 
BA777ER236
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:44 pm

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 7):
As far as I know they are allowed to carry passengers. But don't they ussualy have it in an aerodynamic pod? Like a thing that covers the intake so it does not windmill?

There is no restriction on the carriage of passengers when 'fifth podding'. The payload is only restricted by the weight of the podded engine, and the extra fuel burn that is entailed carrying the engine underwing. The engine does not need to have a 'fairing' but is 'spragged' (I think that is the term!). I'm not sure what that entails - perhaps an engineer on A.net will explain.

As far as flying the aircraft is concerned, it is some years since I flew the classic, and I never 'fifth podded', but there were a couple of airspeed/mach restrictions, and I think I remember that you had to pre-apply some rudder trim before take off, but colleagues told me that otherwise you would hardly know it was there.

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 13):
I think it is better to say that it was a frequent occurance in the past, but is quite rare nowadays.

Absolutely, I think that the only time it would be used nowadays would be if the aircraft could not be 3 engine ferried. This would happen if the rwy performance for a 3 engine t/o was not adequate (short rwy, terrain, weather, rwy contamination) or if a multiple engine change was reqd after a multiple birdstike or something similar.
Flying would be easy if it wasn't for the ground
 
legoguy
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:45 pm

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 3):
Do correct me if I'm wrong but I believe they cannot carry pax when doing so.

When I was young, on my first 747 flight, my Aer Linugs 747 was carrying a spare engine Big grin We have a picture of it somewhere in the family album!
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:25 pm

Quoting BA777ER236 (Reply 14):
The engine does not need to have a 'fairing' but is 'spragged' (I think that is the term!). I'm not sure what that entails - perhaps an engineer on A.net will explain.

I was never involved with B742 pods, but have fitted many on a Tristar. We removed the fan blades and had a set of 6 wooden crates to put them in. The inlet to the IP compressor was blanked with a circle of aluminium held on by some u-bolts. Looked very temporary when fitted but it worked.
The pod engine was fitted in the shop with a special pylon and then towed under the wing. The pylon had its own chains which were fitted to the fwd and rear spars and then the whole thing was winched up to the wing and secured. It was very tricky to get the chains attached because there was very little lateral motion and trying to get a 7 ton engine in exactly the right place in a very limited space took some time. It could take 3 hrs to get it fitted, but about 1 hr to get it off at the other end. The aircraft was balanced by loading 7 tons of ballast fuel in the opposite wing, and then had a Vmo restriction of IIRC 250kts. This led to a very slow flight, and from BAH to Lhr we had to stop and refuel in LCA. It was such a time consuming exercise it was not performed very often.
On the L1011 it was VERY important to fix the fan cowls to the engine before winching it up under the wing, as you could not fit them afterwards (as I found out!!!).
The 5th pod on the B747 was a lot easier to fit, and the aircraft did not suffer from airspeed restrictions so was much more commonly used.
 
BA777ER236
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:44 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 16):
On the L1011 it was VERY important to fix the fan cowls to the engine before winching it up under the wing, as you could not fit them afterwards (as I found out!!!).

Sounds like you had a very long day! Thanks for your recollections - very interesting, and thanks also for explaining 'spragging'(is that the right term?). I must have been mistaken about Vmo/Mmo restrictions on the 747 then (poor memory)

One final thing I remember - I think I'm right insaying that the BA 747-136 could only fith pod a PW JT9D engine, whereas the 236 could fifth pod either an RB211 or a JT9D.
Flying would be easy if it wasn't for the ground
 
American777
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:09 pm

Quoting BamMargera (Thread starter):
5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Here it is!


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JOEBig grin
 
amberair732
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:02 pm

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 15):
When I was young, on my first 747 flight, my Aer Linugs 747 was carrying a spare engine We have a picture of it somewhere in the family album!

This one perhaps ?


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Photo © Bill Sheridan



[Edited 2006-10-09 16:03:36]
 
legoguy
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting Amberair732 (Reply 19):
This one perhaps ?

Yes!!! It was identical to that, if not the exact flight Big grin

Many thanks for posting that! We are having difficulty finding our photo. It is around somewhere but have no idea exactly where it is! Thanks!!!

ohhh and one other thing.......yay I have been on a 747-100!!!! Thats the only type of 747 I have ever been on  Smile
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
cymro
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:45 am

does letting the engine windmill in flight cause any rpoblems to the bearings as with now power I would assume the oil pumps to be out of operation and hence no oil to the bearings?
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:48 am

Quoting Cymro (Reply 21):
does letting the engine windmill in flight cause any rpoblems to the bearings as with now power I would assume the oil pumps to be out of operation and hence no oil to the bearings?

No. watch aircraft parked on the ramp and the fans windmill around all the time.
Also most podded engines do not windmill. The fans are removed and the IP intake blanked.
 
Ned Kelly
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:10 am

Quoting BA777ER236 (Reply 14):
but there were a couple of airspeed/mach restrictions

Apparently the Air India B742 that was destroyed by a bomb in mid air off the south coast of Ireland back in 1985 was ferrying a 5th engine under the wing. I read somewhere once that had it not been carrying the 5th engine and cruising at a reduced mach, the aircraft could have exploded over the SE area of England.
 
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Siren
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:40 am

You just beat me to posting this! Little history on the engine from Air India 182: It was the plane's original engine being taken back for maintenance. They were borrowing another engine from Air Canada for that flight. The idea behind the bomb was, if I'm correct here, for the explosion to occur after the plane had landed. (The other bomb in that string of events happened on the ground at Narita.) It was delayed in departing because they were fitting the fifth pod to the wing...

Quoting Ned Kelly (Reply 23):
Apparently the Air India B742 that was destroyed by a bomb in mid air off the south coast of Ireland back in 1985 was ferrying a 5th engine under the wing.
 
bongo
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:32 am

MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
 
legoguy
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:03 am

Quoting Bongo (Reply 25):

How rude  Silly

You can not actively take part in a discussion if threads have been archived. I am learning some new stuff here, especially about the Air India bomb.
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
Morvious
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting Bongo (Reply 25):
Don´t want to sound rude, but:

[offtopic mode]
Ah well, you can skip most of the "A380, A350 and 787 news, why Emirates has so many planes on order, why the MD-11 wasn't such a succes, when Fokker comes back and how bad Ryanair is" posts!

see my point  Wink
[/offtopic mode]

The real answere is simple!
Boeing desinged the place for the 5th engine for BA so they could change engines in mid flight.
have a good day,

HereThen
 
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jetmech
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:23 am

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 16):
We removed the fan blades and had a set of 6 wooden crates to put them in

Some of the older hands have told me that crates were not always available to carry the blades in. In these situations, each blade was allocated a first class or business class seat!

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 22):
The fans are removed and the IP intake blanked

IIRC, we also fitted an aerodynamic extension to the front of the leading edge of the nose cowl when we 5th podded RR's.
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
SJCRRPAX
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:39 am

Quoting Siren (Reply 24):
The idea behind the bomb was, if I'm correct here, for the explosion to occur after the plane had landed.

I see, a kinder more gentle terrorist. It just boggles the mind.  banghead 
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting Siren (Reply 24):
You just beat me to posting this! Little history on the engine from Air India 182: It was the plane's original engine being taken back for maintenance. They were borrowing another engine from Air Canada for that flight. The idea behind the bomb was, if I'm correct here, for the explosion to occur after the plane had landed. (The other bomb in that string of events happened on the ground at Narita.) It was delayed in departing because they were fitting the fifth pod to the wing...

The bomb on the AI 742 flying YYZ-LHR was designed to detonate in the air and cause maximum damage and death.....the other bomb which exploded on ground at NRT travelled from YVR to NRT in a suitcase on a CP Air 742 and was supposed to transfer to an AI 742 at NRT and explode in the air.....due to mistiming, that bomb exploded on ground at NRT.....

The culprits were recently acquitted by the Canadian courts....for reasons that we should rather not discuss on this forum....
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:41 am

Quoting JetMech (Reply 28):
Some of the older hands have told me that crates were not always available to carry the blades in. In these situations, each blade was allocated a first class or business class seat!

Yes I*ve done that, but on 2 engine ferries which were not planned. On Podded engine flights (We called it 3rd pod on L1011, Lockheed called it the Spare Engine System) were always planned and we had the boxes.

Quoting JetMech (Reply 28):
IIRC, we also fitted an aerodynamic extension to the front of the leading edge of the nose cowl when we 5th podded RR's.

Yes I think that was standard on B742, but in GF L1011 we never had one, only a flat plate.
 
grimey
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:43 am

I read before that Boeing designed the B747 to carry a fifth engine since the original design. I wonder has Airbus designed the A380 to carry a fifth engine.

Two other questions: can a 747 hold a sixth engine, one spare on each side? and why is the fifth engine always on the left hand side of the aircraft, would it make more sense to put it on the right hand side since the passengers get off on the left hand side

Grimey
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:48 am

Quoting Grimey (Reply 32):
Two other questions: can a 747 hold a sixth engine, one spare on each side? and why is the fifth engine always on the left hand side of the aircraft,

No. you need special fittings in the wing and on B747 they are only on the left.
The L1011 spare pod is on the right hand side.

Quoting Grimey (Reply 32):
I wonder has Airbus designed the A380 to carry a fifth engine.

No, its not done nowadays.
Correct me if I am wrong but on the B747-400 only QF and SAA have 5th pod capability. No one else has the fittings fitted.
 
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Siren
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:58 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 30):
The bomb on the AI 742 flying YYZ-LHR was designed to detonate in the air

Incorrect. AI182 was delayed an hour and a half at YYZ due to the fifth pod installation. It would have been on the ground at LHR at the time the bomb detonated had the plane departed on time - a factor beyond the bomber's control.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:29 am

Wow, this is very intresting. I think SAA and QF only have 5th pod capability.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
aa87
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:34 am

Re: range, 1st and only time I saw it was as a child, LY 747-200, went nonstop JFK-TLV. I thought we seemed a little listed to the left the whole flight, due to extra weight, but now I understand that was my youthful imagination at work.
 
SJCRRPAX
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:37 am

Quoting Siren (Reply 34):
Incorrect. AI182 was delayed an hour and a half at YYZ due to the fifth pod installation. It would have been on the ground at LHR at the time the bomb detonated had the plane departed on time - a factor beyond the bomber's control.

Actually no. They could easily have used a barometric switch and a timer, as I believe was used on Pan-AM 103.
 
citationjet
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:38 am

The five engine 747:

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As opposed to the three engine 747:

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.
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773,788.
 
474218
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:10 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 31):
Yes I*ve done that, but on 2 engine ferries which were not planned. On Podded engine flights (We called it 3rd pod on L1011, Lockheed called it the Spare Engine System) were always planned and we had the boxes.

Tristarsteve; Lockheed's actual name for the 4th engine was the "Spare Engine Pod" (SEP). If you have used it, how did you like the nylon bolts used to plug the mounting holes, weren't fun to try and get out?
 
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Siren
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:25 pm

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 37):
Actually no. They could easily have used a barometric switch and a timer, as I believe was used on Pan-AM 103.

The bomb at NRT did not have a barometric switch. It stands to reason that the bombs were manufactured by the same individual with the same materials... thus ruling out the barometric switch theory.
 
call911mfc
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:55 pm

I had a friend who worked for CP Air on the ramp at HNL in the late 80's and I vaguely remember him talking about them ferrying engines out on 747's. IIRC, he even mentioned bumping a L-1011 or DC-10 up to a 747 just to ferry an engine either to Hawaii or points east.

Sorry for the foggy memory....close to 20 years ago.
 
Mr.BA
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:01 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 16):
The 5th pod on the B747 was a lot easier to fit, and the aircraft did not suffer from airspeed restrictions so was much more commonly used

I'm not an engineer or a pilot but I remember bringing this up to the QF crew during a deck visit and they told me me they had speed restrictions if they were to fly with the fifth pod and the average cruise mach would be about .78 - .81.

I wonder if more fuel is to be loaded on the other side to balance for the B747 or just trimming would suffice?
Boeing747 万岁!
 
blueflyer
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:25 pm

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 2):
It is a replacement engine for another aircraft presumably, it is more than likley the fastest and cheapest option for the airline to get the engine out to an awaiting aircraft.

I'm guessing under-the-wing transport is the best option because the engine doesn't fit through the lower deck cargo door. Otherwise, I'd guess that would be the best place to carry it. Correct ?
 
andrewtang
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:58 pm

5th pod can only be done for Rolls-Royce engine and Pratt & Whittney powered B747s. The airline also need to have opt for the option to do a 5th pod from Boeing since built.

Anyway when operating a 5th pod ferry flight, the max operating speed for a B747-400 is reduced to Mach 0.78 only.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:00 pm

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 43):
I'm guessing under-the-wing transport is the best option because the engine doesn't fit through the lower deck cargo door. Otherwise, I'd guess that would be the best place to carry it. Correct ?

When the first BA Tristar was delivered in 1974, Rolls Royce came up with an idea to split the engine in two so it could fit in pallets in the underfloor freight hold. I remember watching a demonstration at LHR when they showed us how it worked. They took the engine out of the freight hold together with a special gantry to reassemble it. They started at 0900 and when I went home at 1630, they still hadn't got it together. BA did not go for this option. We used special lorries to transport the engines in mainland Europe and the underwing pod when further afield.
The CF6 could also be split for transport, and I believe this was more successfull, although I never saw it done.
 
legoguy
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:31 am

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 38):
As opposed to the three engine 747:

Very interesting photo. I never realised that 747's would be allowed to fly minus an enigne, let alone an engine not working.

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 33):
The L1011 spare pod is on the right hand side.

Again, I never realised the L1011 could carry a spare pod. Is there any pictures of a tristar carrying an extra pod?

Last question, if the pod could only be carried on the left wing of a 74, did this make the left side of the 747 slightly heavier as the weight of the fitting required to hold a pod would have been heavy. Or would they have balanced the right wing with a counter balance?
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:45 am

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 46):
Is there any pictures of a tristar carrying an extra pod?

I once took a picture of TWO Tristars parked on the ramp at BAH, both with Spare Engines fitted. One BA and one GF, they were both flying to LHR the same day! No idea where it is, I haven't seen it for years. Must go and find my old photos in my ex-wife's attic one day and look for it. (But it was a bad picture. Taken at 0500 in the early dawn with a 1980 pocket camera)
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:52 am

 
legoguy
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RE: 5th Engine On Boeing 747's?

Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 48):

Thanks very much! Very interesting photo! Very rare!
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?

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Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos