FA4B6
Topic Author
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AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:48 am

"Leap! And the net will appear."
 
mrstl
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:50 am

Aren't AA and UA paying for a majority of the expansion at ORD.. Hmm money will talk.
 
charlienorth
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:55 am

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 1):
Aren't AA and UA paying for a majority of the expansion at ORD.. Hmm money will talk.

They also voluntarily gave up slots,they do have a right to complain.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
HPAEAA
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 2):

They also voluntarily gave up slots,they do have a right to complain.

Agreed, if the FAA wants carrier's to work with them to help volentarily relieve congestion till improvements are put into place then they better not approve B6's request. I'm all for competition however AA and UA did give up slots to help with problems at the airport and should be granted concideration if the FAA wants to open new slots... I do have to say with regards to their reply I think they bring up a very valid point...
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ikramerica
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:59 am

And I find it annoying when the mayor of a city makes public comments about doing everything they can to bring a new carrier in.

Last time I checked, chicago was not underserved nor prices out of line. Why is the mayor getting involved in bringing yet another airline to ORD? Is 85 flights a day to NYC from ORD not enough? (not counting stewart, islip or white plains, and not counting MDW at all). And it's not like Florida or California are underserved from ORD, either.

What does B6 bring to the table that the Mayor needs to stick his nose into things? It's not lower prices, from my experience...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
rwsea
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:03 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
And I find it annoying when the mayor of a city makes public comments about doing everything they can to bring a new carrier in.

Last time I checked, chicago was not underserved nor prices out of line. Why is the mayor getting involved in bringing yet another airline to ORD? Is 85 flights a day to NYC from ORD not enough? (not counting stewart, islip or white plains, and not counting MDW at all). And it's not like Florida or California are underserved from ORD, either.

What does B6 bring to the table that the Mayor needs to stick his nose into things? It's not lower prices, from my experience...

 checkmark 

B6 really brings nothing to the table, as Chicago is well served with AA/UA, not to mention the HUGE WN operation just across town.
 
atlaaron
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:03 am

B6 should have to cough up cash for the ORD expansion if they want to fly there, if not, their application should be denied.
 
FA4B6
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:15 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 5):
B6 really brings nothing to the table, as Chicago is well served with AA/UA, not to mention the HUGE WN operation just across town.

Well that's an unfounded statement. B6 has incredible brand loyalty in the New York City and Boston markets. B6 is an extremely dominant carrier in these markets and not serving a Chicagoland airport is an obvious hole in their route system. NY-Chicago is an extremely important business route in general and for B6 and serving it is crucial.
"Leap! And the net will appear."
 
rwsea
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting FA4B6 (Reply 7):
Well that's an unfounded statement. B6 has incredible brand loyalty in the New York City and Boston markets. B6 is an extremely dominant carrier in these markets and not serving a Chicagoland airport is an obvious hole in their route system. NY-Chicago is an extremely important business route in general and for B6 and serving it is crucial.

Sure it's a hole for their system, but they should serve MDW instead of ORD.

As previously mentioned, AA and UA have worked a great deal with the FAA to reduce delays at ORD. They didn't do it just so B6 or another airline could come in, fill all those slots, and make the congestion just as bad as before. If B6 is allowed to expand to ORD, UA and AA might as well abandon their compromise, and start adding back flights. See below:

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 3):
Agreed, if the FAA wants carrier's to work with them to help volentarily relieve congestion till improvements are put into place then they better not approve B6's request. I'm all for competition however AA and UA did give up slots to help with problems at the airport and should be granted concideration if the FAA wants to open new slots... I do have to say with regards to their reply I think they bring up a very valid point...

It's not just B6 - other carriers (including AS, for example) have added flights in the past few years after AA and UA's voluntary pulldown. It just isn't right for the hub carriers to cut back flights to reduce congestion, yet have others quickly fill the void.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:48 am

I think you can count on UA and AA abandoning their cutbacks if B6 enters the market.... and they should.

B6 walked into JFK using slot waivers when it started flying. It's big enough now it needs to play by the rules.

There are lots of airlines that have holes in their route system but they don't jump over market restrictions in order to fill them.
 
QFSYD744
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 2):
They also voluntarily gave up slots,they do have a right to complain.

 checkmark  If I am not correct wasnt AA under utilizing slots, and that was the reason for the surrender of slots?

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
Is 85 flights a day to NYC from ORD not enough?

 checkmark  The NYC-CHI corridor is overflowing. If B6 wants into the Chicago market they need to go for what they can get - MDW. If not, they need to work around the non slot controlled times at ORD. It the non slot controlled times at ORD are not to the liking of B6, then B6, can head to MDW.

Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 6):
B6 should have to cough up cash for the ORD expansion if they want to fly there

 checkmark  Isnt every airline that is flying to ORD having to pay for the expansion in one form or another?

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 8):
Sure it's a hole for their system, but they should serve MDW instead of ORD

The hole in the B6 system could have been plugged from day one with the addition of MDW. They declined, and they now want O'Hare. The problem is that B6 brings absolutely nothing to the table at ORD. JFK is already served by American Eagle, and the LA basin is more than covered with AA/UA/WN from the CHI metro area.
I Still Call Australia Home
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:09 am

I think it's funny how B6-bashers have constantly called JetBlue "arrogant" for not entering the Chicago market. However, now that they are attempting to enter the market via one of the major airports, those very same people are saying that the service would bring no benefit and that JetBlue's application should be denied.

This seems to be hypocrisy to me. So what's your true opinion? Should JetBlue enter the Chicago market, or should they not? Or is JetBlue always wrong?

JetBluefan1
 
WesternA318
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:13 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 11):
I think it's funny how B6-bashers have constantly called JetBlue "arrogant" for not entering the Chicago market. However, now that they are attempting to enter the market via one of the major airports, those very same people are saying that the service would bring no benefit and that JetBlue's application should be denied.

This seems to be hypocrisy to me. So what's your true opinion? Should JetBlue enter the Chicago market, or should they not? Or is JetBlue always wrong?

I never said B6 shouldnt enter ORD, I hope they do, then tuck their tail in between their legs and retrench back to JFK/LGB. They're just not good enough for me to fly into ORD.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:15 am

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 10):
It the non slot controlled times at ORD are not to the liking of B6, then B6, can head to MDW.

There's a gate space problem at MDW, more so than at ORD actually.


More on topic, like UA's objection which was filed last week, this is regulatory quibbling, but AA (like UA) is right. If B6 wants in, they should follow the proper procedures. Simple as that.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
UAL4ever
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:16 am

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 10):
If I am not correct wasnt AA under utilizing slots, and that was the reason for the surrender of slots?

No. A little while back there were serious efforts to try to reduce the congestion at O'Hare. As part of this both United and American, as the 2 carriers with massive hub ops. in ORD, both agreed to give up a few slots each to reduce congestion as the times when congestion was worse. If I were UA/AA I would also be unhappy that these slots were being used for a competing airline when AA?UA had every right to keep these slots and gave them up voluntarily when asked to by the city as a measure of good faith.
 
QFSYD744
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 11):
Should JetBlue enter the Chicago market, or should they not?

They should when slots are available, until then go for MDW. Dancing around for the past 6 years B6 has had a number of chances to enter the Chicago market. Perhaps, the boat for additional JFK, and LA Basin air service is passed. Why doesnt B6 go for something that is not already flown out of Chicago. Actually, United-American-Southwest have that covered already. So again what does B6 add that no other airline offers? It certainly is not lower airfares.

Same thing, day in and day out.

B6, is not different from any other airline. Not everything, and not every market B6 touches is golden. Heavens knows that Atlanta, and Newark has proven that point.

[Edited 2006-10-09 23:28:06]
I Still Call Australia Home
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
What does B6 bring to the table that the Mayor needs to stick his nose into things?

If that scum Daley is involved I am sure that it is crooked.
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
commavia
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:27 am

If I was United or American, I'd be furious.

JetBlue has every right to come in there and serving O'Hare with as many flights as it wants, as long as United and American get back the slots they surrendered so as to supposedly "alleviate congestion." However, it is completely unfair and ridiculous for the FAA to basically force United and American into giving up slots and then just reassigning those slots to other airlines. It does nothing about congestion, and redistributes assets away from United and American without their ever agreeing to it.

The real enemy in this, of course, is not United, American or JetBlue, but rather the inept bureaucracy that is the FAA and the federal government itself. That entire corrupt and horrifically mismanaged government agency should just be shut down, as far as I'm concerned, for allowing things to get this out of hand to begin with. They've dragged their feet on ATC modernization, and the Congress has taken forever to approve the O'Hare modernization that should have happened ten years ago.

Because the government hasn't lived up to its part of the deal by continually delaying and stalling improvements to traffic capacity in Chicagoland airspace, all airlines -- United, American, JetBlue, etc. -- and all customers must suffer.

Disgraceful.
 
airportplan
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 10):
Isnt every airline that is flying to ORD having to pay for the expansion in one form or another?

Every airline is paying for the project but AA and UA have pledged to pay for the vast majority of the cost.
 
supa7E7
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:00 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 11):
I think it's funny how B6-bashers have constantly called JetBlue "arrogant" for not entering the Chicago market.

Guilty as charged. Well, their whole early era had "paradigm shifting" as its mantra, which is more or less arrogrant. But that's over. B6 is a standard network airline now.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 11):
This seems to be hypocrisy to me. So what's your true opinion? Should JetBlue enter the Chicago market, or should they not? Or is JetBlue always wrong?

JetBluefan1

JetBlue should be approved for some slots. UA and AA are making noise but they forget one thing. ORD is public property. The public gains from having a new airline to choose. Certainly the best few B6 flights beat the worst few AA/UA RJ flights in public value. Also, the rest of the USA would use B6 to get to ORD, so that is a factor, since FAA is national.

Just because AA and UA can soak ORD does not mean it's their airport. These slots belong to the American people. Unless airlines buy them at auction, which they did not. AA, UA and B6 are all moral equals. If B6 can use a slot better than AA, it should go to B6. I do hope slots are viewed as temporary permission "at the pleasure" of the FAA, not eternal permits which grant cash value to AA and UA just because they are big dogs.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
QFSYD744
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:10 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 19):
These slots belong to the American people.

Why do I hear a ballad of Mahalia Jackson following your post above?

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 19):
If B6 can use a slot better than AA, it should go to B6.

The slots belonged to AA/UA before. Is the slots are up for grabs AA/UA should have the first chance to get them back. B6, is not dedicated to Chicago by any means what so ever. AA/UA are the proven airlines dedicated to the O'Hare market.

Why does Chicago need another 6 flights a day to the New York market?

Why does Chicago need another 2 flights a day to the Los Angeles basin?

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 19):
Also, the rest of the USA would use B6 to get to ORD, so that is a factor, since FAA is national.

Honestly, some of the posts. B6 wants to add 6 x JFK, and 2 x LGB. The rest of the nation is hardly going to choose those 8 flights out of the others offered by other airlines out of the Chicago market. As soon as the Jet Blue hype wears off in the Chicago market, they will be nothing more than toast.

What does the FAA being national have to do with B6?

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 19):
The public gains from having a new airline to choose.

They can choose that airline at Midway! JetBlue has had plenty of chances to get into the Chicago market and have declined because all they want is O'Hare. And that reason is because B6 does not by any means want to go head to head with Southwest Airlines.
I Still Call Australia Home
 
jfk777
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:16 am

Poor JETBLUE can't play with the Midwest big boys. IT should concentrate on ORD to JFK only for now, Long Beach can wait.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 20):
And that reason is because B6 does not by any means want to go head to head with Southwest Airlines.

A JFK route wouldn't go head to head against WN. I would argue that FL is actually the bigger problem for B6 at MDW today (and you'd better believe that if FL got a couple of LGA slots, they'd be flying to MDW). The interesting thing is that B6 did not bid for TZ's gates a few years ago. That would have more than allowed for a focus city with room to spare. B6 must believe that yields are worse at MDW. Judging by the failures of various legacy carriers there over the years, I'd tend to agree.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
supa7E7
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:31 am

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 20):
The slots belonged to AA/UA before.

No, they belonged to the American people. See above. There never was a slot auction.

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 20):
AA/UA are the proven airlines dedicated to the O'Hare market.

They enjoy the generosity of many slots, and for that they should be grateful.

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 20):

Honestly, some of the posts. B6 wants to add 6 x JFK, and 2 x LGB. The rest of the nation is hardly going to choose those 8 flights out of the others offered by other airlines out of the Chicago market.

Sure they will. JFK has a zillion B6 loyalists who will use the new flights. Ditto for LGB. For their sake, the FAA has some mandate to grant the app even if nobody from Chicago flies on Jetblue at all. Which... they probably will.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
AADC10
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 17):
The real enemy in this, of course, is not United, American or JetBlue, but rather the inept bureaucracy that is the FAA and the federal government itself. That entire corrupt and horrifically mismanaged government agency should just be shut down, as far as I'm concerned, for allowing things to get this out of hand to begin with. They've dragged their feet on ATC modernization, and the Congress has taken forever to approve the O'Hare modernization that should have happened ten years ago.

No, the real enemy are the NIMBYs and the people who want an airport elsewhere or increased service at Gary. ORD has been a problem for decades and unlike other public works projects, airports are built with almost entirely private and federal funds. The FAA has not modernized their equipment, but that would not help ORD much. They need to pour concrete and have more runways, which have been opposed by local politians and residents near ORD.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 19):
UA and AA are making noise but they forget one thing. ORD is public property.

It is public property but it is mostly privately financed. Landing and passenger fees fund the airport and since the bulk of the money comes from UA and AA, they are going to have something to say about B6 taking prime slots.

A few years ago, UA and AA voluntarily reduced flights at the request of the FAA and the result was that IndyAir and some other airlines took used the openings in the schedule and delays were as bad as ever. ORD is going to need flattened landing fee schedule to encourage carriers to use mainline plains instead of RJs until the runways are realigned.
 
luv2fly
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:57 am

I thought the slots that B6 is going after are the ones that IAir is no longer using?
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
commavia
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:05 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 24):
No, the real enemy are the NIMBYs and the people who want an airport elsewhere or increased service at Gary.

I'm through with blaming NIMBYs. Sure, NIMBYs are annoying, but it's the powers that be who are at fault for caving in to the NIMBY lobby. The NIMBYs can yell and scream and protest, to the detriment of the other 99% of the population, but the politicians and bureaucrats are the ones who bend to their demands.
 
nuggetsyl
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:17 am

I think jetblue is nuts for wanting to go to ord. To take on the number 1 and 2 carrier in size in a price war is crasy. There is no way amr or ual will let jetblue make money in ord.
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:25 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 24):
Landing and passenger fees fund the airport and since the bulk of the money comes from UA and AA, they are going to have something to say about B6 taking prime slots

You act like UA and AA will pull out of ORD, not going to happen, you'd have a better chance of Michael Jackson being approved to be a foster parent  Big grin
Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
 
allstarflyer
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
Why is the mayor getting involved in bringing yet another airline to ORD?

Face time - King Richard is the best in America at getting face time for himself when the moment seems right.

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 10):
If B6 wants into the Chicago market they need to go for what they can get - MDW. If not, they need to work around the non slot controlled times at ORD. It the non slot controlled times at ORD are not to the liking of B6, then B6, can head to MDW.

That's not such a bad idea, although, when I worked at O'Hare a few years back, Spirit was groundhandled by Delta over in T3 (I don't what the deal is nowadays). Why couldn't B6 work out something like that, say, in T2 with NW - I remember looking over from the DH counter (the little one CO let DH use) and seeing gates open for quite a while on the NW side of the E gates. It would be a bit tougher on the CO side, as they share a gate or two (I believe) with America West. The NW gates could be used during the down times, and I don't see why B6 would be against using a couple of those 2x a day each - if they want in O'Hare, they have to start somewhere, and I'm sure they could milk out 4 flights per day using a plan like this. No, it wouldn't be during the best times of the day (mid-to-late morning, and probably sometime early afternoon), but it would be something. I'm sure they could get plenty of butts in seats, regardless, with some additional marketing ploys.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 12):
They're just not good enough for me to fly into ORD.

What is good enough for you into ORD? I'm curious  scratchchin  . That's a strange remark.

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 15):
Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 11):
Should JetBlue enter the Chicago market, or should they not?

They should when slots are available,

Agreed.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 22):
Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 20):
And that reason is because B6 does not by any means want to go head to head with Southwest Airlines.


A JFK route wouldn't go head to head against WN.

The routing of MDW-JFK wouldn't be threatened by anybody (I believe) competitively, but the MDW route doesn't seem to me like as solid as going with sticking their feet in the door at O'Hare (see above-mentioned possibility). An MDW-JFK route, though, might work, though, since there wouldn't be much competition, but, as mentioned by Cubsrule, the possible yields may not be so attractive.

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 24):
They need to pour concrete and have more runways, which have been opposed by local politians and residents near ORD.

 checkmark  Someday, some people on one side of the airport or the other is going to have to suck it up and deal with it. My opinion is to move south and make room past Irving Park Road. Not by a whole lot, though - just a few thousand feet will do. I remember there's a little gun shop, some businesses and some residential area on the SW side of the airport property, the old railroad bridge directly S, and some cargo and international carrier buildings to the SE. Those, I believe, would be the least difficult to relocate (amongst other businesses/passageways on other sides of the airport).

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 24):
ORD is going to need flattened landing fee schedule to encourage carriers to use mainline plains instead of RJs until the runways are realigned.

Good idea. That would max capacity on a few more flights if they had to consolidate pax loads onto mainline carriers, but, I wouldn't be against it. Their flow times always put the carriers for whom I've worked at a disadvantage anyway. It would help not having the regionals run so many hours late because all the slot times are chock-full of mainline carriers.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
Wsan581
Posts: 174
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 20):
Honestly, some of the posts. B6 wants to add 6 x JFK, and 2 x LGB. The rest of the nation is hardly going to choose those 8 flights out of the others offered by other airlines out of the Chicago market. As soon as the Jet Blue hype wears off in the Chicago market, they will be nothing more than toast.

I did not know you represent the rest of the nation. This is getting old, I bet you wrote off B6 when they entered the shuttle service between BOS/JFK/IAD, yet they succeeded. B6 has a huge following in the LA basin and NYC, and that alone would make jetBlue a success story, should they get landing rights at ORD.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 25):
I thought the slots that B6 is going after are the ones that IAir is no longer using?

I thought the same...
Blue Skies Ahead!!
 
charlienorth
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:29 am

AA and UA did in fact pay $$ for many of the slots that they hold,purchased in the late '80s and early '90s from companys that wanted to use their assets at their own hubs.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
UAL4ever
Posts: 51
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:37 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 23):
Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 20):
The slots belonged to AA/UA before.

No, they belonged to the American people. See above. There never was a slot auction.

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 20):
AA/UA are the proven airlines dedicated to the O'Hare market.

They enjoy the generosity of many slots, and for that they should be grateful.

While I am glad that you seem to be committed to the ideas of the common good I think your ideas are flawed. The slots belong to AA/UA regardless of how they recieved them wven if they were awarded the slots. That is how the system works. Furthermore AA/UA serve the market very well and are committed to the city of Chicago. B6 coming in will only add to the congestion here which is terrible as is. I just don't get the feeling that B6 will be able to sway passengers going to NYC or LGB area as most of those are business travelers and AA/UA both have very committed business treveler bases and AA/UA do a good job holding on to that base. I just don't see B6 being successful at ORD in the long run.
 
ikramerica
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:57 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 19):
The public gains from having a new airline to choose.

Not always. It's just not that simple. As more options are added, any specific gain is marginal. There is already ample competition in the Chicago to NYC market that frequencies are plentiful, fares reasonable, options plentiful.

It's not just AA and UA. CO hubs at EWR and has a large slate of frequent 737s a day. DL has LGA flights, etc.

As I pointed out, between the existing carriers, there are 85 frequencies a day from ORD to the big three NYC airports. This doesn't count the MDW-EWR frequencies on CO, the MDW-ISP frequencies on WN, etc. Many of these flights are on smaller jets because chicagoans want frequency (every 10-15 minutes to one of the three airports on somebody). But it also means that if there were REAL DEMAND and the market was UNDERSERVED, these 85 flights would be upgaged. The capacity on this route could be tripled, if the market actually demanded it, without offering any more frequencies.

Further, sometimes bringing in another carrier actually harms the public. AA and UA cut some secondary routes to help with congestion. This hurt the public as their choices of destinations decreased. But bringing in a new carrier that offers nothing (limited route structure to destinations already well covered) means that instead of letting AA and UA add slots back and open back up third tier routes, chicago will lose out on those and instead get 5-10 more NYC flights. Big deal.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 25):
I thought the slots that B6 is going after are the ones that IAir is no longer using?

No, it's coincidental that Indy is selling theirs, because there are filing deadlines for such moves. B6 is asking for additional slots to be given to them, slots AA and UA gave up. In other words, B6 wants to be given slots without AA and UA being given the same opportunity (or CO or DL or anyone else for that matter). The Indy Air filing is about selling their old slots, and B6 and anyone else could bid on them, at least that's how I understand it.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
galapagapop
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:17 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 11):
I think it's funny how B6-bashers have constantly called JetBlue "arrogant" for not entering the Chicago market. However, now that they are attempting to enter the market via one of the major airports, those very same people are saying that the service would bring no benefit and that JetBlue's application should be denied.

This seems to be hypocrisy to me. So what's your true opinion? Should JetBlue enter the Chicago market, or should they not? Or is JetBlue always wrong?

JetBluefan1

They were arrogant they refused to fly into MDW which can accomodate them, ORD there is simply NO room for them. AA and UA both offer huge hubs from ORD as is and ORD has had mega delays over recent years, AA and UAL understanding their right to be able to expand flights at ORD gave those rights up and reduced flights to helpmake ORD better for everyone, now B6 wants in, and is cutting into their agreement, MDW's door is wide open, but fact has been and still is ORD does not have the room for B6, and if B6 is allowed in I say AA and UA should just build up the flights to show what they themselves have done for ORD.

CHeers!
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:20 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 11):
I think it's funny how B6-bashers have constantly called JetBlue "arrogant" for not entering the Chicago market. However, now that they are attempting to enter the market via one of the major airports, those very same people are saying that the service would bring no benefit and that JetBlue's application should be denied.

B6 has a history of selecting their markets based on how they think they can cut the next guy's throat, by bending the rules. They also claim, since they are the new kid on the block, rules shouldn't apply to them. They feel they can easily undercut the legasy airlines, like AA, UA, and DL. But when it comes to going head to head against their real compitition, another LCC, they run away. B6 had a great package offered to them to go into DFW, but they could not compete against AirTran at DFW or WN at DAL, so they decided to put a few flights into AUS. They stayed away from IAH and HOU for the same reason, WN. So, instead of competing head to head in the Texas #1 and #2 markets (DFW and Houston), they chose to go to the #4 airport in the state (not even service to SAN, the #3).

No, they don't want to go into MDW as WN and TZ are there.

Why don't they have a big BOS/JFK type operation at BWI (is it WN, again), or ATL (AirTran)?

If B6 wants to play in the big leagues, they need to play on the same field as the big boys, using the same rules.
 
FA4B6
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:26 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 35):
They stayed away from IAH and HOU for the same reason, WN. So, instead of competing head to head in the Texas #1 and #2 markets (DFW and Houston), they chose to go to the #4 airport in the state (not even service to SAN, the #3).

JetBlue operates JFK-HOU 3x daily, JFK-SAN 2x daily, and IAD-SAN 1x daily.
"Leap! And the net will appear."
 
supa7E7
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:28 am

Quoting UAL4ever (Reply 32):
The slots belong to AA/UA regardless of how they recieved them wven if they were awarded the slots. That is how the system works

Yeah well, we are seeing the fallout of that half baked policy. To decide ORD exists for the benefit of UA and AA, I think not. The FAA giveth and the FAA taketh away. I would have no problem with it them taking some AA/UA slots for B6. Like it or not, B6 will succeed. "ORD is closed" is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. New airlines do occasionally pop up... should we tell them ORD is closed? Looking at that massive facility I just don't buy it, esp out of AA and UA's mouths.

It's a question of balance. ORD has a given capacity. We need to cap departures. Fine. But what about B6? In theory the FAA could collect yearly slot rent from each slot. That would avoid the situation where simply UA and AA own all the "extra" slots and they can play gatekeeper ORD, which is mostly if not totally perverse. Yes UA and AA pay most of the landing fees, which B6 would love to pay also. Let them.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
B6MoneyGuyJFK
Posts: 95
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:30 am

Quoting Nuggetsyl (Reply 27):
think jetblue is nuts for wanting to go to ord. To take on the number 1 and 2 carrier in size in a price war is crasy. There is no way amr or ual will let jetblue make money in ord.

Price war? A filing was made, nothing more. Permission has yet to be granted. Schedules have yet to be announced, and the cost of a ticket from ORD-JFK has not been mentioned. A number of hurdles before the first jfk-ord service.

Also, isn't most of the frequency in general LGA-ORD? While waiting for the Airtrain in the morning, I do not recall seeing a plethera of service from JFK to ORD.
Opinions are like @ssholes. Everyone has one, and everyone thinks everyone elses stinks!
 
Wsan581
Posts: 174
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:43 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 35):
But when it comes to going head to head against their real compitition, another LCC, they run away.

Really?  scratchchin  Who do they compete with at HOU, MCO, BOS, FLL, TPA, RSW...and the list goes on. All of the mentioned markets have the likes of Airtran, Southwest, and Spirit competing on routes offered by jetBlue.
Blue Skies Ahead!!
 
nuggetsyl
Posts: 156
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:48 am

Quoting B6MoneyGuyJFK (Reply 38):
Price war? A filing was made, nothing more. Permission has yet to be granted. Schedules have yet to be announced, and the cost of a ticket from ORD-JFK has not been mentioned. A number of hurdles before the first jfk-ord service.

I am just saying for a company that is trying to get back in the black flying ord is the last place you will make it. You see how cal responded then b6 came into ewr. They flooded the market with seats and made those routes unprofitable.
 
Wsan581
Posts: 174
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:59 am

Quoting Nuggetsyl (Reply 40):
I am just saying for a company that is trying to get back in the black flying ord is the last place you will make it. You see how cal responded then b6 came into ewr. They flooded the market with seats and made those routes unprofitable.

Unprofitable? They launched EWR with 16 daily flights and operated 14 since there start up at EWR. They dropped 2 flights, which were both to SJU. They currently operate 10 flights for Sep/Oct and are right back up to 14 flights in Nov. If they were not profitable they would drop EWR.

As for ORD, alot of A.netters think this is a bad move because of AA/UA. I disagree with anybody that thinks they can't make ORD work. JFK is there market with huge presence from AA/DL and CO on the otherside of the river.
Blue Skies Ahead!!
 
BigGSFO
Posts: 2275
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:10 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 37):
I would have no problem with it them taking some AA/UA slots for B6.

Would you hold this same view if the FAA took slots from B6 at LGB and gave them to someone else? Probably not.
 
QFSYD744
Posts: 381
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:15 am

Quoting Wsan581 (Reply 41):
Unprofitable? They launched EWR with 16 daily flights and operated 14 since there start up at EWR. They dropped 2 flights, which were both to SJU. They currently operate 10 flights for Sep/Oct and are right back up to 14 flights in Nov. If they were not profitable they would drop EWR

FYI- Tampa went seasonal remember?

Quoting Wsan581 (Reply 39):
Really? Who do they compete with at HOU, MCO, BOS, FLL, TPA, RSW...

Southwest Airlines does not fly from JFK to any of those destinations!

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 35):
B6 has a history of selecting their markets based on how they think they can cut the next guy's throat, by bending the rules.

Well they didnt select correctly with ATL, and numerous others!

RETREAT white 

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 35):
No, they don't want to go into MDW as WN and TZ are there.

 checkmark  Well known fact the B6 boss doesnt like markets where his ex-employer is currently flying!  box 

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 34):
They were arrogant they refused to fly into MDW which can accomodate them, ORD there is simply NO room for them.

 checkmark  B6 throws a fit when they dont get there way. Sorry, feel so bad that you have to return A320's because the market is not as rosy as the B6 folks would like the flying public to think.

Quoting UAL4ever (Reply 32):
Furthermore AA/UA serve the market very well and are committed to the city of Chicago.

 checkmark  American Eagle serves JFK-ORD, why does B6 need to enter the market?

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 23):
JFK has a zillion B6 loyalists who will use the new flights.

Sorry, those loyalists couldnt make a number of B6 routes profitable.

So much for loyalists!

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 23):
No, they belonged to the American people.

 rotfl  Mahalia Jackson, and fireworks please..

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 22):
A JFK route wouldn't go head to head against WN.

B6 would be circled by the throngs of Continental, American, American Eagle, Delta, United, and ATA flights from the JFK area to Chicago. Why oversaturate already crowded corridors?

 crowded 

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 21):
Poor JETBLUE can't play with the Midwest big boys.

 checkmark   hissyfit 
I Still Call Australia Home
 
bigdrewfl
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:10 pm

RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:22 am

Quoting AirportPlan (Reply 18):
Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 10):
Isnt every airline that is flying to ORD having to pay for the expansion in one form or another?

Every airline is paying for the project but AA and UA have pledged to pay for the vast majority of the cost.

Well, They do operate 91% of the airport!
 
QFSYD744
Posts: 381
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:11 am

RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:28 am

Quoting Bigdrewfl (Reply 44):
Well, They do operate 91% of the airport!

To be fair there should be a higher cost to American Airlines and United Airlines, although other occupants should have to pay an increased fee, after all OHare is a luxury, there are after all 2 airports in Chicago!  wink 
I Still Call Australia Home
 
jetbluefan1
Posts: 3305
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:39 am

RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:29 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 35):
B6 has a history of selecting their markets based on how they think they can cut the next guy's throat, by bending the rules. They also claim, since they are the new kid on the block, rules shouldn't apply to them. They feel they can easily undercut the legasy airlines, like AA, UA, and DL. But when it comes to going head to head against their real compitition, another LCC, they run away. B6 had a great package offered to them to go into DFW, but they could not compete against AirTran at DFW or WN at DAL, so they decided to put a few flights into AUS. They stayed away from IAH and HOU for the same reason, WN. So, instead of competing head to head in the Texas #1 and #2 markets (DFW and Houston), they chose to go to the #4 airport in the state (not even service to SAN, the #3).

I honestly feel that while you are allowed to have your opinion, this post is just ridiculous. The only "package" that JetBlue had at DFW was if they were to launch service out of a large amount of gates and create a focus city-type operation. Why would JetBlue do that in another airline's mega hub? It just doesn't make business sense. Period.

And B6 can't compete with WN at DAL? That has a little something to do with the Wright Amendment. Where did you want them to fly from DAL? To MSY? OKC? ABQ? And by the way, JetBlue flies JFK-HOU 3x. WN has nothing to do with this as they don't even offer service to NYC. And going to AUS was just plain business sense. You're telling me that JetBlue should go into routes that already have stimulated demand and should fight for the same passengers. You're telling me that JetBlue should go into routes that already have high competition just so that they aren't "arrogant." That's just dumb business sense.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 35):
No, they don't want to go into MDW as WN and TZ are there.

That has nothing to do with it. WN doesn't fly to JFK. WN doesn't fly to BOS. TZ has been cut down so much that it isn't nearly as much of a threat as it was in years past. Has it ever occurred to you that B6 sees a better opportunity for success at ORD than MDW?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 35):
Why don't they have a big BOS/JFK type operation at BWI (is it WN, again), or ATL (AirTran)?

Why would they ever do that? Going into another airline's hub and trying to make it their own hub is just not smart. To further that argument, why go into BWI and ATL and create a huge focus city when demand has already been stimulated? To fight over the same passengers? JetBlue has done an amazing job at stimulating traffic at BOS and JFK because for years other airlines have overlooked their potential and have failed to make them anything more than a small focus city or international hubs.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 35):
If B6 wants to play in the big leagues, they need to play on the same field as the big boys, using the same rules.

So I'm guessing that having hubs or focus cities at JFK and BOS, the former being one of the busiest airports in the world, and being the largest airline at that airport, means nothing?

JetBluefan1
 
Boeing Nut
Posts: 5078
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RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:31 am

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 2):
They also voluntarily gave up slots,they do have a right to complain.

Not if they gave them up voluntarily.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:35 am

Quoting Boeing nut (Reply 47):
Not if they gave them up voluntarily.

It wasn't really "voluntary." The FAA basically told them they had to, and they did because they were both sick and tired of taking ridiculous delays because of the stalled O'Hare expansion plans. All that happened, however, is that the FAA forced AA and UA to give up slots without putting any restrictions on other carriers, so competitors just added more flights, completely contradicting the original purpose. Now, JetBlue also wants in on the action, while AA and UA -- which bring billions upon billions upon billions into the region eahc year -- are capped with the slots they can use.
 
Wsan581
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:52 pm

RE: AA Responds To B6 At ORD

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:47 am

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 43):
Southwest Airlines does not fly from JFK to any of those destinations!

FYI WN does not fly from JFK. Who said WN only? and who said JFK only?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 35):
But when it comes to going head to head against their real compitition, another LCC, they run away.



Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 43):
Sorry, feel so bad that you have to return A320's because the market is not as rosy as the B6 folks would like the flying public to think.

When most carriers are parking there planes B6 is able to sell there A/C and add to there bottom line. Who said the market is rosy? Airtran has slowed there growth, AA/UA/NW have all parked planes and cut routes. Song and Fly I no longer exists, the market is far from rosy.

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 43):
American Eagle serves JFK-ORD, why does B6 need to enter the market?

I guess LCC's should stop flying, since all markets have a presence from legacy carriers.  Yeah sure

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 42):
Sorry, those loyalists couldnt make a number of B6 routes profitable.

And AA/UA/DL/NW/WN/FL/etc... have never dropped a route? its a business at the end of the day, if a route is not profitable then stop flying it. All carriers drop routes.  Yeah sure

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 43):
B6 would be circled by the throngs of Continental, American, American Eagle, Delta, United, and ATA flights from the JFK area to Chicago. Why oversaturate already crowded corridors?

Are you serious? You answered your own question...there is a demand for the Chicago/NYC market!
Blue Skies Ahead!!

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