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CcrlR
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:44 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 2):
I'll have to try to get on the first long-haul revenue flight and experience the new lie-flat suites...I'm rooting for ATL-SYD or JFK-SYD though I know other routes are more likely first.

Hmmmm. I think this is something AA would be pretty suited for. Mabye they can try JFK-ATL-AKL with it. I can't wait to see these 777's!
"He was right, it is a screaming metal deathtrap!"-Cosmo (from the Fairly Oddparents)
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:17 am

Here is an interesting tidbit I ran into reagrding this today:

Delta Air Lines Inc. (DALRQ : Delta Air Lines, Inc.
said Thursday it plans to operate five new international routes in 2007 from its Atlanta hub and expand service on four trans-Atlantic routes from New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport.
Delta will move seven 767-400 aircraft to its international fleet by next summer, meaning all its long-haul flights between Europe and South America will use 767s while its Asian routes will use the larger, 268-passenger 777-200.
Delta said it could move more planes from domestic to international routes and is planning to add 10 long-range Boeing Co. (BA83.06, +1.42, +1.7%) 757-200 aircraft to its fleet as early as next year to fly its trans-Atlantic and Hawaiian routes.


Link: http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Stor...366%7D&siteid=myyahoo&dist=myyahoo
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DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:32 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 41):
maybe those 777-200LR will fly to TLV

No chance. Would be a waste of the plane's capabilities.

Quoting RJ777 (Reply 47):
Wonder if a new COlor Scheme will accompany the 777LRs.

Doubtful. Grinstein is no friend of introducing a new livery, and neither are Whitehurst or Bastien. However, a special livery might be another thing.
 
dalb777
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:50 am

Slightly off topic, but any chance DL would order any 777-300ER's? Although I would love to see a DL 773ER, I think chances are slim, but what do y'all think?

[Edited 2006-10-12 19:52:18]
Geaux Tigers! Geaux Hornets! Geaux Saints! WHO DAT!!!
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:00 am

Quoting Dalb777 (Reply 53):
Slightly off topic, but any chance DL would order any 777-300ER's? Although I would love to see a DL 773ER, I think chances are slim, but what do y'all think?

Would love to see that, but don't see it happening, as DL just doesn't have the markets for that plane. Those longhaul markets that already see multiple daily flights like ATL-FRA/CDG/LGW offer the demand, but at the same time DL also has to offer multiple flights to allow for more connection choices. Besides, I would expect DL to add additional flights on 767s to increase capacity on those routes, if demand warrants it.
 
airbazar
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:05 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 1):
Great pair for Delta but where will they use them, which ocean will they cross?

I'm guessing the newly announced ATL-DXB will be a good candidate for it.
 
baw716
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:49 am

Jacobin777,

You got that right!!!
The LR is like an ER on steroids. I've seen the LR at Boeing Field take off at light weight (less than 3000 feet for sure, possibly about 2500)...even a de-rated takeoff; the thing is like a rocket.

Look forward to reading your trip report...
best
baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
Glom
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:55 am

How will this be logged in the order book? Will we see an order for 2 777 from DL for this year along with a "change" of -2?

I see from the reports that DL only ordered 13 772ERs in the first place. That's an awfully small number of aircraft for a legacy carrier like DL.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 57):
I see from the reports that DL only ordered 13 772ERs in the first place. That's an awfully small number of aircraft for a legacy carrier like DL.

Delta never actually intended to only order such a small number of 777s, as the 13 was only the starting number, combined with a total of 60+ options, IIRC. But the pay dispute with the pilots a few years ago forced DL to try to find a cheaper option, and went with more 767s instead of ordering additional 777s. Not to mention that DL was actually close to selling their first 2 they had already gotten, due to the pay dispute. And not to forget, had it not been for the pilot dispute, DL would have been flying MAS' 777, as they wanted to get rid of excess capacity on their longhaul flights (deja vu anyone?) and DL and MH were about to conclude an agreement.
 
dank
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 2):
I'll have to try to get on the first long-haul revenue flight and experience the new lie-flat suites...I'm rooting for ATL-SYD or JFK-SYD    though I know other routes are more likely first.

If DL does that as the first route I'd seriously have to question their management.

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 21):

ATL-SYD is 8068nm and JFK-SYD is 8646nm, both well below Boeing's stated still-air range of 9410nm. Granted, allowance has to be made for winds, weather, etc., but Boeing lists both JFK-SIN (200nm farther than ATL-SYD) and ORD-SYD (just 40nm shorter) as "typical city pairs".

I'm not convinced that for any airline, let alone an airline that doesn't emphasize the high fare folks, will make money stretching the -200LR to its limits. Just as I don't think stretching a -200ER to its limits makes sense when you could get a -200LR to run it and make a better profit (the real reason I think DL is going for the -200LR, not for the ultra long haul benefits).

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 13):
DL is selling the full capacity of the 777ER in/out of BOM so they are not planning on passenger payload restrictions. There may be limits on cargo but it always makes sense for a passenger airline to carry passengers rather than cargo.

I don't think that is always the case. It is an airline by airline, route by route decision. If you can't fill a plane with higher fare passengers and you can transport high revenue cargo, you bet they would lower the seats for sale and sell more cargo space. They would be stupid not to. And I think there probably are cases where this is true.

Cheers.
 
777STL
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 34):
also - DL signed a connection agreement with an airline in South Africa, what makes you think they cannot do the same in Australia?

It wouldn't be QF since they're already allied with AA and AS. DJ is already aligned with UA and NZ is a *A carrier. Who else is there?

I do think there's better routes for a 777LR and DL than Australia.
PHX based
 
panamair
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:05 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 55):
I'm guessing the newly announced ATL-DXB will be a good candidate for it.

JFK-BOM which DL is starting Nov 1 is even longer than ATL-DXB; the former is 6,777 nm while ATL-DXB is 6,604 nm.
 
rj777
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:36 am

Wonder when this is going to show up on Boeing's site!?
 
okie73
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 58):
But the pay dispute with the pilots a few years ago forced DL to try to find a cheaper option, and went with more 767s instead of ordering additional 777s

thats not true at all. There was a pay dispute, and the company threatened to get rid of the two 777s on property and cancel the rest, but it never happened. The pay dispute was settled long before it got that far, and Delta continued to take delivery of all 777s on firm order until 9/11 intervened.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 63):
thats not true at all. There was a pay dispute, and the company threatened to get rid of the two 777s on property and cancel the rest, but it never happened. The pay dispute was settled long before it got that far, and Delta continued to take delivery of all 777s on firm order until 9/11 intervened.

The point was to why DL never placed firm orders for more than 13 777s.
 
okie73
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 64):
The point was to why DL never placed firm orders for more than 13 777s

I submit to you 9/11 and Delta's subsequent financial troubles had more to do with not ordering more 777s than did the pay dispute.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 52):
Doubtful. Grinstein is no friend of introducing a new livery, and neither are Whitehurst or Bastien. However, a special livery might be another thing.

Would love to see the "Worldliner" livery colours with a DL tail..that would rock.. thumbsup 

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 56):
You got that right!!!
The LR is like an ER on steroids. I've seen the LR at Boeing Field take off at light weight (less than 3000 feet for sure, possibly about 2500)...even a de-rated takeoff; the thing is like a rocket.

When the -200LR took off from SFO...it COMPLETELY looked like it was on steroids....a few of us couldn't believe our yest...it was actually scary to see a plane of that size take off like that...

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 56):
Look forward to reading your trip report...

Thanks...my schedule should go well and I will be flying on it this December and giving a rather large trip report...photos and vidoes... bigthumbsup 
"Up the Irons!"
 
baron95
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:55 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 36):
People are assuming they will use these planes for new super long routes, but they are more profitable to run on even medium long routes than the 772ER, as they can carry a full payload where the 772ER would be restricted.

Without the 3 belly tanks, the range is about 8500nm, so on a 6000nm route, that's one loaded plane.

Ikramerica is absolutely right here - everybody keeps talking about 9000nm routes. That is not the reason for ordering the 200LR. If you want to fly full payloads out of somewhat restricted airports (due to altitude, runway length and temperature), year-round (particularly east-west), the LR is much mora profitable. You need to understand that the value of cargo in $$$/lb is going up in the trade to Asia. Microchips, etc make a huge portion of that cargo and can generate good rates.

The other reason to order the LR vs the ER is the resale/residual value of the airplane 20 years from now will be much, much higher.

The 777-200LR, I believe, will turn out to be a very profitable airplane, even in the face of 787-9 and -10 competition.

We'll see LRs in routes as short as 5000 nm IMHO.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
ikramerica
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:16 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 44):
Delta seems to be headed for a sizeable fleet of new generation 777's.

While 13 jets is more than I personally own, it's not exactly sizable, especially for an airline the size of DL.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:47 am

I don't think you'll see DL with more than about 7 LRs. They don't need that many planes with that kind of range. DL will undoubtedly have the 787 and it can easily do routes routes that are beyond 777ERs today. The LR really is a niche airplane - and probably not as cost effective if the 787 can do the job, even with its slightly smaller capacity.
 
jfk777
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:22 am

Mumbai and Dubai may be only the tip of the LR iceburg. Today we don't know how many ultra haul flights DL has up its sleve. Certain flying to South Africa will be nonstop as soon as the 777 are available(Dakar will get its own 767 flight). Atlanta to more of Asia has to be in the cards too, more 777's. JFK and LAX to something across 10 time zones, the possibilities are well endless.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:53 am

Yes, but few of them need an LR. The 787 is an ULH aircraft and more cost efficient. DL is ordering the LR because it is available now, because DL has 777 orders that Boeing apparently doesn't want to convert, and because the LR does have some unique capabilities that are beyond the 787 = but needed in a very few markets. There is no reason for DL to acquire a large fleet of LRs when the 787 is right around the corner given its ability to do many of the routes which people here think the LR should do.
 
airbazar
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:58 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 61):
JFK-BOM which DL is starting Nov 1 is even longer than ATL-DXB; the former is 6,777 nm while ATL-DXB is 6,604 nm.

Only by a hair. They're both good candidate for the aircraft but DXB and ATL are much hotter and more hummid than BOM and JFK which means the 772ER would likely take greater penalties on the DXB-ATL route than BOM-JFK.
But more importantly, competition is also a factor. To DXB, DL will be going head-to-head with EK's non-stop service while to BOM, they have no non-stop competition.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:05 pm

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 72):
To DXB, DL will be going head-to-head with EK's non-stop service

Say, when did Emirates start DXB-ATL?
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:05 pm

We'll see but I have a feeling that just like an aweful lot of posts on this forum, DL will do just fine on the ATLDXB route financially and operationally despite dozens of a.netters who are convinced they couldn't make it.

Do you people honestly think that banks and creditors trust companies with hundreds of millions of dollars of aircraft assets without those companies having the ability to properly deploy those assets? And do you not think that DL works with Boeing and RR/GE to help them optmize the performance of their aircraft and ask for technical guidance in making new routes work?

Of course they do.
 
aircanada014
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:41 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 43):
Quoting SR100 (Reply 42):
Is the wording "launch" costumer correct? The 777-200LR has been launched for a while and I would say, that DL is simply the very first US costumer...

That is why they used the term "US launch customer" - they are the first US operator to launch the plane

Pakistan Airlines was the launch customer for LR and AC follows the 2nd launch customer since they are next in line for production am I right? Also AC will be the launch customer for 300ERs and 200LR in North America.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:20 am

Quoting Highflyer9790 (Reply 30):
I don't think the 777LR has the range to do either of those routes.

JFK-SYD = 8646 nm

777LR Range= 9,420 nautical miles
(17,446 km)



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 36):
Without the 3 belly tanks, the range is about 8500nm, so on a 6000nm route, that's one loaded plane.

Actually, this route could be done without any aux tanks as range for that configuration is 8,800 nm. Can't remember which document I read that on though.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting AirCanada014 (Reply 75):
Also AC will be the launch customer for 300ERs and 200LR in North America.

"North America" is correct and you can add to that "Western Hemisphere" since I don't believe any Latin American carriers operate any 772LRs as of yet or have any on order from Boeing. DL is merely the first U.S. flag carrier to order or contract for the 772LR. AC currently does all of the heavy maintenance checks on 763s, 763ERs and 764ERs for DL at their YVR tech facility. Since DL has been flying a few 772ERs for awhile it will be interesting to see if AC sends them to DL for for such work until their tech staff is fully trained. Of note, AC does all of the ramp and agent work for DL at YVR for their flights to SLC and ATL from there.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
gigneil
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:33 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 49):
I am sure the pilots of these aircraft are not too thrilled to see their pension fund that they worked for being taken away from them, and then the airline come out and buy new equipment.

This is the attitude that is putting airlines out of business.

Delta needs new equipment to increase both revenue and earnings, which will better the situation for employees.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 70):
Certain flying to South Africa will be nonstop as soon as the 777 are available(Dakar will get its own 767 flight).

I continue to seriously, seriously doubt that. I cannot see any reason why ATL-JNB would top the list when other more profitable routes could be launched or improved, and arguably the DKR stop provides revenue in and of itself.

NS
 
airbazar
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 73):
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 72):
To DXB, DL will be going head-to-head with EK's non-stop service

Say, when did Emirates start DXB-ATL?

They don't. I was referring to non-stop competition between the US and Dubai. EK is the only carrier offering a non-stop flight between the US and Dubai. When DL starts their ATL-DXB, DL will be the only other carrier offering a non-stop link with Dubai, from the US.
 
777ER
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:46 am

Way to go Boeing and DL. Could there be any more plans for extra 200LRs?
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supa7E7
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:29 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 69):
I don't think you'll see DL with more than about 7 LRs. They don't need that many planes with that kind of range. DL will undoubtedly have the 787 and it can easily do routes routes that are beyond 777ERs today. The LR really is a niche airplane - and probably not as cost effective if the 787 can do the job, even with its slightly smaller capacity.

Yes. The 777LR will serve pretty much India, China, possibly Africa. Otherwise the 787 will be DL's workhorse, fulfilling 772ER missions and 763ER missions alike.

Actually the Dreamliner seems more and more like a 777 killer.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:40 am

The reason why DL would use the LR to S. Africa, if they do, would be because they would have a significant advantage over South African Airways who does not have nor does there seem to be any plans to acquire an aircraft capable of flying nonstop in both directions.

When you can start a route and then gain an advantage over the incumbent competitor, you do it.

Yes, the 777 is quickly growing obsolete which I believe is why Boeing wasn't willing to let DL convert its 777 orders to 787s. The 777 is a great airplane but technology moved along much faster than Boeing expected. The flip side is that the 787 will be such a huge winner in the marketplace that any pain it causes the 777 program will be more than overcome. I still wouldn't be surprised if the 777 program is profitable now.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:50 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 71):
DL is ordering the LR because it is available now, because DL has 777 orders that Boeing apparently doesn't want to convert

Well, I don't think it's that they don't want to convert them, but that DL can't commit to a new type right now while in BK. To convert them to a 787, they'd have to basically make a financial decision that the 787 is their future, and they may not be in a position to do that right now. Further, the 787 would require new negotiations for pay, something they may not want to do right now. The 772LR doesn't present those problems, and they are available now-ish, rather than 2011, which is another good reason to buy them, like you said.

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 76):
Actually, this route could be done without any aux tanks as range for that configuration is 8,800 nm.

I'm pretty sure each aux tank adds about 350nm range, and 8500nm is the base range. Widebodyphotog would know, but I've not heard from him in a long while...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:57 am

Creditors don't care whether DL buys 787s or 777LRs. They care about how much money DL is spending and when they spend it. DL could order any acceptable Boeing product to fulfill its obligation if they wanted to from the creditors' perspective.

DL had previously said they would make a decision about their next generation widebody and they undoubtedly have incorporated that decision into their five year plan which they are developing and presenting to their creditors right now.

DL is ordering the 777LR because it is available now, has capabilities beyond the 787 which are needed to develop some ATL - Asia and Africa routes, and undoubtedly also because Boeing won't let DL convert their 777 orders to something else. Remember, DL has deferred its 777 orders several times already. Manufacturers don't want to let orders get cancelled - see the comments about how difficult Airbus is being with the A346 for certain Middle East carriers.
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:35 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 84):
DL is ordering the 777LR because it is available now, has capabilities beyond the 787 which are needed to develop some ATL - Asia and Africa routes

Ok, why do you follow up this logical, reasonable argument with this?:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 84):
and undoubtedly also because Boeing won't let DL convert their 777 orders to something else.

Why is it your opinion that Boeing won't let DL convert their remaining 777 orders to something else? And how, then, do you explain Garuda's 787 order, which will be converted from their long-standing 777 order?

Regards,

Hamlet69
All gave some. Some gave all.
 
777ER
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:06 pm

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 81):
Actually the Dreamliner seems more and more like a 777 killer.

Its better that Boeing kill the B777 then have Airbus kill it with their A350

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 85):
Garuda's 787 order

Aye, when did that happen?
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Hamlet69
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:16 pm

All gave some. Some gave all.
 
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zeke
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:20 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 78):
This is the attitude that is putting airlines out of business.

Delta needs new equipment to increase both revenue and earnings, which will better the situation for employees.

The money belonged to the pilots, not DL, they have effectively stole from their employees. The employees did the work, they should receive the agreed remuneration associated with doing that work.

Bit like DL carrying passenger, who later decides not to pay delta because they wanted a new car so its cheaper for them to driver to work.

This is not fair, nor is not paying the pilots what DL agreed to pay pilots.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
jacobin777
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 88):
The money belonged to the pilots, not DL, they have effectively stole from their employees. The employees did the work, they should receive the agreed remuneration associated with doing that work.

Bit like DL carrying passenger, who later decides not to pay delta because they wanted a new car so its cheaper for them to driver to work.

This is not fair, nor is not paying the pilots what DL agreed to pay pilots.

In the end, the employees understood that its better to have a job with less benefits than to not have a job at all or start from the bottom of the "totem-pole"....

Cheers..
"Up the Irons!"
 
ikramerica
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:00 am

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 85):
Why is it your opinion that Boeing won't let DL convert their remaining 777 orders to something else?

I don't know where he gets that idea from. 777 slots are scarce, and if DL needed to defer and change to the 787, Boeing would JUMP on that, as it would signify that DL has chosen the 787 for the future.

Which is why I say they didn't do it. It's not just about ordering 5 787s. It's about choosing the 787 as the 763/764 replacement for the future, a very big financial decision beyond the conversion of the 777s, something the BK court and creditors may not be willing to allow DL to do at this time. And again, considering the stink with the pilot union, going back to them at this time and negotiating the 787 pay scales may not be the easiest task. The 777 payscales are already set...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 88):
The money belonged to the pilots, not DL

No... all the money belongs to DL. They pay the pilots and every other employee what they want to... not the other way around.

DL pilots were paid WAY more than any other airline pilots for years. They lived off borrowed time and the bill has now come due. DL pilots ARE STILL paid more than airlines at UA, US, and NW - along with a host of international carriers.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 90):
777 slots are scarce, and if DL needed to defer and change to the 787

And slots for the 787 are sold out until ????
 
widebodyphotog
Posts: 885
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:09 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 83):
I'm pretty sure each aux tank adds about 350nm range, and 8500nm is the base range.

Base range with 301 pax in still air is ~8,950nm without ACT and ~9,700nm with three ACT. The reason those 5,550USG does not improve range with design payload so dramatically is that the TOW increases by more than 37,000lbs plus the weight of the tanks. You're burning a lot of fuel just to get the extra mass of fuel from point A to B. The downside of a fuel limited aircraft...


-widebodyphotog
If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
ikramerica
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:47 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 91):
And slots for the 787 are sold out until ????

That was what I and Hamlet agreed with.

But THEN you said Boeing wouldn't let DL convert them to 787s. Nothing at all to do with when they could get planes, and makes no sense.

Of course they can't get 787s until 2010 at the earliest. We were both questioning where you got the idea they weren't allowed to convert the order to 787s, especially as it would be the start of a DL commitment to the 787.

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 92):
Base range with 301 pax in still air is ~8,950nm without ACT and ~9,700nm with three ACT

Haven't seen you around for a while. Thanks for returning!

So it has been revised upward?

During and after testing, it was 9450nm max range with three ACT, even though everyone thought the range would go up a few hundred nm just based on the same for the 77W (7500nm at launch-7800nm now). Is this from the lightening program they have been working on? Why hasn't Boeing updated their website?

Do you know how the ACTs work? Does one add 350nm, two add 600nm and three only add 750nm, or is it more linear?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
worldtraveler
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Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:08 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 93):
Of course they can't get 787s until 2010 at the earliest. We were both questioning where you got the idea they weren't allowed to convert the order to 787s, especially as it would be the start of a DL commitment to the 787.

because DL does hold firm delivery options for 5 777s and 2 more options in 2008 and 2009. Boeing isn't interested in letting DL defer orders any further when they hold valid delivery slots in the next couple years for one useable widebody. If DL converted to 787s, Boeing probably would have to wait 2 more years to get their money.
 
dank
Posts: 935
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:35 am

RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:18 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 94):
because DL does hold firm delivery options for 5 777s and 2 more options in 2008 and 2009. Boeing isn't interested in letting DL defer orders any further when they hold valid delivery slots in the next couple years for one useable widebody. If DL converted to 787s, Boeing probably would have to wait 2 more years to get their money.

While Boeing would be happy to have the money now (as in the next couple of years), I am sure that they would gladly defer if DL said that they were going to convert to 787s because it would imply that they were going with the 787 in the long run and therefore likely to order more (and if they could get commitments to more 787s at the same time that orders were converted, they would get some additional money in deposits without actually having to deliver anything). Now, it is highly likely that DL will go with the 787 anyway, and their creditors may not be happy to go along with it now for reasons discussed above, which may limit their ability to do so. It isn't as if manufacturers have deferred orders for cash strapped airlines frequently in the past (the loss in revenue in the short term frequently is more than compensated in the long term, particularly if it ensures that the airline return to solvency).

As for the discussion re: the pension fund belonging to the pilots or DL. The money, itself, belonged to DL. However, they had a financial obligation to retirees. They renegged on this financial obligation (as well as renegging on other financial obligations). So, it is as if retirees are creditors and they had no choice but to accept the deal. The problem is that the government let it happen once, so everybody and their brother is jumping on the bandwagon and expecting the government to bail them out, although some companies are in a better financial (and better about how they feel about their obligations) and simply not putting more into their pension plans, but still paying out at the current rates.

While the DL situation is best for DL, the company, you can't help but feel for people who planned appropriately for retirement, but suddenly don't have that check coming in. Sure you can say that they have been overpaid in the past, but does that make it OK to say, well, you guys are overpaid, so we aren't going to pay our obligation to you? I'm don't mean to pick on DL in particular, just that they are the example here.

cheers.
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:42 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 93):
So it has been revised upward?

Yes as has reference range for 777-300ER to 7,940nm.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 93):
Do you know how the ACTs work? Does one add 350nm, two add 600nm and three only add 750nm, or is it more linear?

The ACT work for and against the range performance of 777-200LR. Range increase is quite linear in the former of your example. As you add more fuel TOW must increase and subsequently the rates of fuel burn at every stage of flight so range gain decreases with every increment of extra fuel...

Lightning up the 777-200LR is really an all or nothing prospect if you ask me. In weight limited aircraft lowering structural weight leaves more room for fuel and a unit of extra fuel carries you farther than a unit of reduced structural or TOW. To make significant leaps in range the fuel volume limited 777-200LR has to drop big chunks of weight. So to get really far out there in range Boeing will have to shave big chunks of weight, 5, 10, 20,000lbs, or find a way to add significantly more fuel. Achieving the latter by extra belly tanks is wholly undesirable by both operators and Boeing...

Don't know exactly why Boeing does not keep the website up to date with current performance benchmarks, but I have to imagine while knowing how many optional configurations there are on these aircraft, it's very hard to pin one down and say that's the standard. I think the most important thing is the information the manufactures give to the customers and potential customers which has to be very specific and accurate.



-widebodyphotog
If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
tsnamm
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:09 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 28):
of course the highest value cargo can be worth taking over passengers but generally passenger carriers do not get enough of that cargo... and passenger airline economics are built around carrying passengers, not cargo. If you can show me a route with profitability statistics showing that a passenger airline has lower than region to region average loads for a flight but the route is profitable based on cargo, I'll believe it. But I don't think you can.

Most Passenger airlines make a profit on flight segments due to cargo and mail revenues carried along with the passenger load...many flights that would probably just break even based on "typical" passenger loas are made profitable due to the freight and mail revenue...the very nature of the wide bodied aircraft was designed specifically for this purpose.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:24 pm

I absolutely believe that cargo is a significant contributor to flight profitability. But passenger airlines cannot make money on flights that do not have profit potential on the passenger side expecting cargo to make the flight profitable. Of course it is a matter of degrees as to where profits come from but passenger airlines are designed to run passenger operations with contributions from the cargo segment, not the other way around. Combi aircraft are the closest thing to having a predominantly cargo focused flight with a few passengers but that concept never was terribly strongly embraced.

I don’t like to see anyone lose what has been promised to them but unfortunately that is part of what is allowed in the BK process, including retirees. Let’s not forget that the DL pilots took billions of dollars out of their retirement plan in the form of lump sum distributions in a mass exodus. It is not realistic to think that any company or government could fund 25-30% of their employee or population’s retiree benefits if they had to do it in a couple year period – and that is exactly what DL was faced with doing after the mass exodus of pilots with their lump sums. However, everyone who lost something at DL, including the retirees will get some sort of stake in the reorganized DL. If DL continues its strong restructure, those equity stakes might be worth something.

As for the argument about why Boeing won’t allow DL to defer the 777 orders any longer, you are assuming that DL will EITHER order the 787 or buy 777s now. Boeing undoubtedly knows that DL is not going to reject their contract with Boeing and will also order 787s so they would far rather see DL take the 777s now PLUS buy 787s by the dozens in a couple years.

Widebodyphotog,
Can you post the actual data or a link to your most recent data on the 787 weights and performance? The search function is not finding your posts that contained it.

Thanks

Also, I don’t think you will see a whole lot of airlines using the full fuel capacity of the LR via the body tanks. Most of the routes that DL is expected to use the LR for can be done with the current fuel capacity of the ER but with the weights of the LR.
 
widebodyphotog
Posts: 885
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 1999 9:23 am

RE: Delta Becomes US Launch Customer For 777-200LR

Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:30 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 28):
of course the highest value cargo can be worth taking over passengers but generally passenger carriers do not get enough of that cargo... and passenger airline economics are built around carrying passengers, not cargo. If you can show me a route with profitability statistics showing that a passenger airline has lower than region to region average loads for a flight but the route is profitable based on cargo, I'll believe it. But I don't think you can.

Not necessarily entirely due to cargo but just about anywhere out of China/Japan/Asia to the US and Europe belly cargo adds significant margin to revenues over costs. Cargo is very much a one way business in the world today and cargo operations will be hugely profitable in one direction and break even or loss leaders in the other...But having significant combined cargo operations with passenger flights adds a lot of revenue and can be the entire margin in terms of profit on many sectors.

The 777-200LR gives the operator the advantage of not sacrificing payload even at extreme ranges leaving more payload available for revenue generating cargo. Currently it and its -300ER sibling is the best deal going in that regard.



-widebodyphotog
If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do

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