b737700doctor
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B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:58 am

I have never seen a B747-400 with out winglets. please explain. https://www.airliners.net/open.file/0472736/M/
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legacyins
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:04 am

JL and I believe ANA use hiigh capacity 744s with no winglets on their domestic flights. The winglets were set up as a fuel saver on longer flights. So flying NRT-OSA with five hundred PAXs with these aircraft is not uncommon.
 
N766UA
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:05 am

Domestic use 744s. No point in having winglets on short segments.
 
bmacleod
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:05 am

The 'D' or 'domestic' is a specialized version of the 744 that doesn't have winglets. You can refer to the Boeing website for more details...
This topic has been discussed before numerous times...
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usair320
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:13 am

Otherwise a newer version of the original 747SR.
 
Garri767
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:34 am

i thought 744s without winglets were known as 743s  Wink



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citationjet
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:50 am

See Airliners.net Aircraft Data on the 747-400, it has the answer to your question.

Apart from the basic passenger 747-400 model, a number of variants have been offered including the winglet-less 747-400 Domestic optimised for Japanese short haul domestic sectors, the 747-400M Combi passenger/freight model, and the 747-400F Freighter (which combines the 747-200F's fuselage with the -400's wing).

https://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=100

.

[Edited 2006-10-14 21:03:04]
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HAWK21M
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:52 am

The B747 Domestic used within the country by Japan.[small sectors]
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Zkpilot
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:48 am

Quoting Garri767 (Reply 5):
i thought 744s without winglets were known as 743s

No the 743 is the previous model of 747. It has the SUD but has an old analogue cockpit and has a Flight Engineer. 744 has 2 pilot operation with glass cockpit.
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Aaron747
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:07 am

Main differences between 744 and 744D: the 744D has no center or stab fuel tanks. The 744D has no winglets or wingtip extensions. The 744D has significantly lower MTOW. Other than that, most else is the same.

In Japan both NH and JL have examples in their fleets. They rarely make flights longer than 2.5 hours and are typically operated in high capacity configurations of over 550 seats.

Legacy, believe you were referring to Osaka but OSA is not the code. Osaka Itami, the domestic airport, is ITM. You won't see 744Ds on that route anymore as four-engine aircraft were banned from Itami airport last April.
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TaromA380
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:28 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
four-engine aircraft were banned from Itami airport last April

Why ???
 
kwcarolma
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:05 am

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 10):
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
four-engine aircraft were banned from Itami airport last April

Why ???

Noise abatement?
 
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LTU932
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:15 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
Main differences between 744 and 744D: the 744D has no center or stab fuel tanks. The 744D has no winglets or wingtip extensions. The 744D has significantly lower MTOW. Other than that, most else is the same.

I was under the impression that 744s and 744Ds can be converted to either type (e.g. from 744D to 744 and vice versa).
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FutureFO
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:43 am

NH switches the 74D and the 744 Internationals every now and again. That way they can keep the hours fairly low on the international birds.
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JAGflyer
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:49 am

Japanese airlines like custom planes.
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deltajet757
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:22 pm

Quoting Garri767 (Reply 5):
i thought 744s without winglets were known as 743s

No. The 743 was the 747 before the 744. Here's a hint, it has different engines that look like the ones on the 741's and 742's. Also the wings are different. They look as if they just stick out of the fuselage whereas the wings on the 744 look more blended with the fuselage.


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Quoting B737700doctor (Thread starter):
I have never seen a B747-400 with out winglets. please explain

The 744 w/o winglets is an updated SR. Winglets aren't practical on domestic and short haul flights because they won't save the amount of fuel to be in any way practical. In other words, they wouldn't save enough fuel to save much money.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 2):
Domestic use 744s. No point in having winglets on short segments.

  

On long International flights let's just say from NY over the North Pole winglets would make a lot of sense to have because the amount of fuel saved would save some money. When you see single aisle A/C like 757's and 737's with winglets that means for those type of planes the winglets would make sense for transcon's (SFO-IAD, LAX-JFK) because those flights would be considered long haul for short to meduim haul A/C.

(If that needs more clarification feel free send me a message.)


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[Edited 2006-10-15 05:33:25]
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captaink
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:41 pm

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 13):
NH switches the 74D and the 744 Internationals every now and again. That way they can keep the hours fairly low on the international birds.

Without a centre fuel tank, they don't use the D birds on long international flights? Can someone explain how NH does this switch?
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LTU932
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:00 pm

Quoting DeltaJet757 (Reply 15):
No. The 743 was the 747 before the 744. Here's a hint, it has different engines that look like the ones on the 741's and 742's. Also the wings are different. They look as if they just stick out of the fuselage whereas the wings on the 744 look more blended with the fuselage.

If you're talking about the wing to body fairing, this doesn't apply to all 743s. The newest 743s that were built (I believe it's starting with line number 710 or 711, not sure though) have the same wing to body fairing as the 744s, along with a GE CF6-80 engine option.

Here for comparison, a 743 with the 744's wing to body fairing and CF6-80s:

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And here one with the classic 747 wing to body fairing and CF6-50s:

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Quoting Captaink (Reply 16):
Without a centre fuel tank, they don't use the D birds on long international flights?

I'm not sure myself, but if NH swaps the 744Ds and 744s, then the tanks mentioned are simply deactivated in the D configuration while in the International configuration, they're reactivated and the winglets get installed.
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captaink
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:06 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 17):
I'm not sure myself, but if NH swaps the 744Ds and 744s, then the tanks mentioned are simply deactivated in the D configuration while in the International configuration, they're reactivated and the winglets get installed.

Ok makes sense, I am with you on the tank. But I imagine when a D is swtich to Int'l ops they don't install winglets, as I can't imagine them taking off and putting on winglets ever so often.
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virgin747
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:13 pm

and then theres the 744s that fly without winglets when the pilot smashes the winglet into another plane or said object.....

I know theres a few pics on here.... too lazy to find them....
 
ikramerica
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:54 pm

Quoting DeltaJet757 (Reply 15):
When you see single aisle A/C like 757's and 737's with winglets that means for those type of planes the winglets would make sense for transcon's (SFO-IAD, LAX-JFK) because those flights would be considered long haul for short to meduim haul A/C.

That's over simplified. Winglets on the 737 can accomplish three things: decrease drag/increase lift, increase airspeed, decrease fuel consumption. All four are interrelated, which is why I say it can do four things. You decide what you want to achieve.

Lower thrust for same cruise speed? That's a decrease in fuel consumption.
Increased lift for the same thrust? That's a shorter takeoff and faster climb.
Increase airspeed with the same thrust? That's a shorter trip.
Decreased thrust to achieve same lift? That's a quieter takeoff.
Decreased thrust for same airspeed? That's a quieter approach.
etc.

One reason the 744D has no winglets is to decrease wingspan, for better gate utilization domestically in Japan.

Quoting Captaink (Reply 18):
But I imagine when a D is swtich to Int'l ops they don't install winglets, as I can't imagine them taking off and putting on winglets ever so often.

True. They don't swap winglets. In 2003, I flew ITM-NRT on a JL 744 configured as D (no F, lots of Y, domestic J up front and upstairs), but with winglets...
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LTU932
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:56 pm

Quoting Captaink (Reply 18):
But I imagine when a D is swtich to Int'l ops they don't install winglets, as I can't imagine them taking off and putting on winglets ever so often.

But it seems they do or else the entire conversion wouldn't make sense.

Quoting Virgin747 (Reply 19):
and then theres the 744s that fly without winglets when the pilot smashes the winglet into another plane or said object.....

Not only 744s, but also A330s, A340s and A320s had to suffer from that.   Don't know if an MD-11 ever got a winglet clipped, though it would look weird because of the wingtip fence below the actual winglet.

EDIT: Judging from the last post, it seems they don't necessarily swap winglets in that conversion after all.

[Edited 2006-10-15 06:58:17]
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ikramerica
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:40 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 21):
But it seems they do or else the entire conversion wouldn't make sense.

That's for a permanent switch to the standard version. The claim was that JL switches some frames back and forth for regional international ops. I don't know if that is true or not, but I did fly on a 744 with winglets on a domestic JL flight configured in a short range layout.
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virgin747
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:02 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 21):
Not only 744s, but also A330s, A340s and A320s had to suffer from that. Don't know if an MD-11 ever got a winglet clipped, though it would look weird because of the wingtip fence below the actual winglet.

Out of all Airbuses that had to get damaged..... some moron taxiing the Symphony of Voices A320 in Vancouver hit a truck or something and the winglet on that plane was damaged....
 
deltajet757
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:15 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20):
That's over simplified. Winglets on the 737 can accomplish three things: decrease drag/increase lift, increase airspeed, decrease fuel consumption. All four are interrelated, which is why I say it can do four things. You decide what you want to achieve.

Which all reduce fuel consumption, that's what I was trying to say. Winglets=less drag=more lift=increased airspeed=LESS FUEL CONSUMPTION!

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deltajet757
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:23 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 17):
you're talking about the wing to body fairing

yes

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 17):
this doesn't apply to all 743s

I meant for most 743's. Only some had updated wing to body fairing not all.

-DeltaJet757
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PADSpot
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:42 pm

Quoting DeltaJet757 (Reply 24):
Winglets=less drag=more lift=increased airspeed=LESS FUEL CONSUMPTION!

That equation burns in my eyes. I can't leave it by that ... You cannot put all these things into one equation. Also the equation signs make it wrong.

At first drag (backward-directed, decelerating force) corresponds to thrust (forward-directed, accelerating force) and lift (up force) corresponds to weight (down force). Thus the line of reasoning should be as follows

1. Winglets reduce induced drag, but increase direct drag. BUT the balance is negative and thus drag is REDUCED.
2. Less drag translates either in less thrust needed for the same speed or in a higher speeds on the the same thrust level
3. Only thrust directly corresponds to fuel comsumption!
4. If you use the lower drag for higher speeds you don't save fuel! Only if you use the thrust-saving potential to just maintain the same airspeed as with no winglets, you can save maximum fuel.
5. Saved fuel naturally results in more range.
6. Less drag improves acceleration on take-off and thus take-off speed is achieved on shorter distances. That in turn either enables you to take of with less thrust (--> less fuel!) or with more weight on the same distance (On the ground weight results in rolling drag and thus affects drag as decelerating force) or you could just use less runway, which has no economic benefit for the airline.

Of course strategies are not always strictly "either-or"; the potential gained can be used for a mixed effect (e.g. increase speed a bit and save a little fuel)
I also ommited some minor side-effects, but the above gives you a pretty precise "big picture" of how it works ...

cheers,
Jan

Edit: You also don't need 'lift' to explain the winglet effect.

[Edited 2006-10-15 09:52:18]
 
JetSetter001
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:03 pm

The 744 D have no winglets for weight reasons as well. No that they just do´t´pay off on short domestic routes, they weight a hell lot more compared to having no winglets.
 
JuniorSpotter
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:06 pm

Quoting Garri767 (Reply 5):
i thought 744s without winglets were known as 743s  Wink

...am I the only one to understand this as a little joke? You'd think that the wink would give it away...  box 
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ANCFlyer
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:05 pm

RE: 747-400 Without Winglets! How Come? (by HT Mar 13 2006 in Civil Aviation)?searchid=2656087&s=747+Winglets#ID2656087

A little search engine exercise for you . . .
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:58 pm

I flew on an ANA 744D on Friday HIJ-HND. There were a few C class seats up front but otherwise it was all Y. The flight was an hour and a bit. But I've seen ANA 744s with winglets at HIJ before so they must be used on domestic flights too. Not sure about using 744Ds internationally, though - certainly not to places like Paris.
 
QF744ER
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:15 pm

If you look at the front wheels of the B743 and the B744 you'll notice the older B743's is of a different design. The wheels on the 747-400 have more holes which I guess is for assisting in cooling the carbon fibre brake pads which the 747-300 doesn't have.

That being said from my obervations over the years UA 744's seem to use the older wheels rims on their aircraft, that shot of N180UA in this thread is a good example.

The -400D's also have a strengthened undercarriage to cope.

According to the info I have:

JA401A/JA402A/JA8955/JA8957 are all former International 747-481's now in (D) config and JA8960 was a (D) and is now in normal International config.

But it lists 11 standard 744's and 12 domestic birds. I thought they only had 10 normal internation -400's in their fleet?

cheers

Tom/PER
 
ThePRGuy
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:17 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 8):



Quoting DeltaJet757 (Reply 15):

I think you will find he was being sarcastic....
Thanks
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pilot21
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:17 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 22):
That's for a permanent switch to the standard version. The claim was that JL switches some frames back and forth for regional international ops. I don't know if that is true or not, but I did fly on a 744 with winglets on a domestic JL flight configured in a short range layout.

I read in Airliners magazine a few yrs back that ANA operated the aircraft in D config. for say 5-7yrs and then switched the aircraft over to International routes. (Not a switch back and forth operation). The reason for the switch was that because the aircraft were flying very short sectors, the aircraft cycles built up incredibly quickly, so in order to extend the life of the aircraft, they changed the config. of the aircraft from D to regular 400 series aircraft and sent it on it's way.
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kaddyuk
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 33):
I read in Airliners magazine a few yrs back that ANA operated the aircraft in D config. for say 5-7yrs and then switched the aircraft over to International routes. (Not a switch back and forth operation). The reason for the switch was that because the aircraft were flying very short sectors, the aircraft cycles built up incredibly quickly, so in order to extend the life of the aircraft, they changed the config. of the aircraft from D to regular 400 series aircraft and sent it on it's way.

That article you speak of,

They dont switch D aircraft to Intl. Ops, the switch the other way around, and even then they dont make any physical changes... They simply schedule the Intl. Aircraft to fly the D sector.

I'm sure most carriers do the same...
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longhauler
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting DeltaJet757 (Reply 15):
Also the wings are different. They look as if they just stick out of the fuselage whereas the wings on the 744 look more blended with the fuselage.

Sharp eye! I never noticed that before!
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ATAIndy
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:14 am

Quoting JuniorSpotter (Reply 28):
...am I the only one to understand this as a little joke? You'd think that the wink would give it away...

No, no you weren't the only one. I make second.  Wink  Wink  Wink

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pilot21
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RE: B744 With No Winglets?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:41 am

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 34):
They dont switch D aircraft to Intl. Ops, the switch the other way around, and even then they dont make any physical changes... They simply schedule the Intl. Aircraft to fly the D sector.

ahh thanks Kaddyuk, it was a long time ago, so was very much going from memory on that one.(which is obviously getting worse Smile

Rgds

Pilot21
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