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bringiton
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Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:46 am

 
redflyer
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:09 pm

That upper deck on the -8i is getting mighty long. I can't imagine hustling even more passengers up that narrow staircase that is found on existing 744's. Is the -8i going to have to take advantage of the three-jetway configuration being installed for the A380 at some airports in order to maintain existing passenger loading and un-loading turnaround times? (Meaning the 3rd jetway will attach to the upper deck for loading and unloading.)
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Stitch
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:13 pm

I'm more and more tempted to believe that the airlines expressing interest in the 748I are not interested in something that slots between the 773/A346 and the A380, but instead are looking at something to serve as the top-end of their fleet capacity.

I believe we are indeed looking at an "either / or" situation.

As such, I believe airlines that have heavily committed to the A388 - SQ, QF, LH, EK - will not be interested in the 748. And any airline that buys the 748I will not be interested in the A388. So if BA or CX buy the 748, they will do so because the A388 is not the right plane for them (in their view).
 
Johnny
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:18 pm

@ Stitch

I cannot see your point.The B748I still fits in between.

B777-300ER 350 seats
B748I 450-467seats
A388 550 seats


So no news from Randy - that small capacity jump is already known.
 
AA737-823
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:30 pm

You're not listening to what Stitch is saying. He's saying that airlines that buy the 748, he thinks, are doing so because they feel the 380 is TOO BIG FOR THEM. And, he suspects, airlines that want the A380 won't want an aircraft that slots in right underneath it- too close to bother with, you might say.

And further, yes, I do believe that this IS a new CONFIRMATION of what was previously a rumor- the 748i and 748F will share a common fuselage setup.

To recap, you said the 748 still fits between. Yes it does, but that doesn't mean A380 operators will want it. And it also doesn't mean that 748 operators will still need something bigger.

Hope that cleared things up.
 
Johnny
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:38 pm

@ AA737-823

I am listening to him ( By the way - why did you answer and not him...? But that is a different story )

But as i still see the B748I to fit in between the B777-300ER and the A388, i cannot agree with him.
I still see a market for already A388-customers as well as for B748I-only customers.
 

[Edited 2006-10-17 05:42:20]
 
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LTU932
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:50 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 1):
Is the -8i going to have to take advantage of the three-jetway configuration being installed for the A380 at some airports in order to maintain existing passenger loading and un-loading turnaround times?

That's very doubtful. Unless the door is re-designed to a regular passenger door and is no longer the current upward opening door used as an emergency exit, I don't see it happen. This picture should show you how the current 744 upper deck door opens and you'll know why with such a door, it would be close to impossible to have PAX board:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jonathan Rankin

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redflyer
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:55 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 6):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 1):
Is the -8i going to have to take advantage of the three-jetway configuration being installed for the A380 at some airports in order to maintain existing passenger loading and un-loading turnaround times?

That's very doubtful. Unless the door is re-designed to a regular passenger door and is no longer the current upward opening door used as an emergency exit, I don't see it happen.

I agree with what you're saying, but I wonder how difficult it would be to redesign the door? I would think it would be minor compared to the other enhancements they're incorporating into the -8. But, more importantly, are airlines going to encounter issues loading and unloading that upper deck from the existing staircase or will the door have to be redesigned to allow for use of a 3rd jetway?
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Zone1
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:01 pm

With this increase in length I wonder how this will affect the 747's tail strike record, as there have been a few widely publicised tail strikes for 747s.
/// U N I T E D
 
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LTU932
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:03 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 7):
I agree with what you're saying, but I wonder how difficult it would be to redesign the door?

Another question is if all the passenger doors are to be re-designed. Will they use doors that are like those on the T7s or Airbus, or will they continue to use the current, original 747 design, hinged doors.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
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Stitch
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:08 pm

Quoting Johnny (Reply 5):
But as i still see the B748I to fit in between the B777-300ER and the A388, i cannot agree with him. I still see a market for already A388-customers as well as for B748I-only customers.

I'm not denying that the 748I fits in-between the A388 and the 773ER/A346 in terms of capacity.

What I am saying is that I am starting to believe that an airline will not choose all three models, but instead will select the 773ER/A346 and either the A388 or the 748I.

Under this scenario, you will not see LH fly the A388, the 748, and the A346. They will fly only the A388 and the A346, replacing their 744s with both planes. Same with SQ, who will replace their 744s with the A388 and 773ER.

On the flip side, hypothetically if BA buys the 748I and the 773ER, they will not operate the A388. Same with CX (hypothetically).
 
baron95
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:11 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
As such, I believe airlines that have heavily committed to the A388 - SQ, QF, LH, EK - will not be interested in the 748. And any airline that buys the 748I will not be interested in the A388.

Stitch, I agree with you with one possible exception. And that is the very few airlines that need to grow fast and will order whatever VLA they can get slots on.

Example: Lets say that A388 production ramp-up is even slower than recently announced and EK can't get their 40 A388s for a long time. I can see them ordering both. Same for QR or QF or Air China/Air India when they decide to grow fast. But that should be the exception to the rule.

Also, I don't see the some of the largest airlines in the world (AA, DL, CO) ordering any VLA - so they'll order massive amounts of 787s when the time comes and the A388 and 748 will be irrelevant.
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Stitch
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:14 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 11):
Stitch, I agree with you with one possible exception. And that is the very few airlines that need to grow fast and will order whatever VLA they can get slots on.

Aye, circumstances could force some airlines into mixed fleets, but chances are we'll see them as leases and not purchases. If Boeing offers a 748BCF program, that could help since the lessors would have a home for them down the road.

Afterall, even EK is taking more 773ERs to bridge the "capacity gap" rather then existing 744s or suggesting the 748I.
 
baron95
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:26 pm

Quoting Zone1 (Reply 8):
With this increase in length I wonder how this will affect the 747's tail strike record, as there have been a few widely publicised tail strikes for 747s.

I doubt it will make much of a difference - the strech is only 1.6m behind the main landing gear.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 4):
CONFIRMATION of what was previously a rumor- the 748i and 748F will share a common fuselage setup.

The fuselages are not common at all - the 4.1m strech ahead of the wings are in two different sections. The strech includes the upper deck area on the -8I and does not include it on the -8F.

I still would like to see Boeing get the -8I to about 475 passangers to leave some room for a 777-400 at 380 or so passangers. I believe that plane (774) will be needed to fight off the A350XWB-1000.
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ikramerica
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:38 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 1):
I can't imagine hustling even more passengers up that narrow staircase that is found on existing 744's.

The 748i has a redesigned staircase design, at least as shown in the presentations. It curves around, and there is a '2-story atrium' effect across Door2, with clerestory windows.

As for the door, the door certainly can be redesigned to a swing open design. The only real reason it is as it is now is that there was no need for it to be a boarding door. No airports had such an option, and the upper deck wasn't that big.

Now both of those points are changed. The upper deck is the size of a 737-100 (or larger?), and with A380 gates being built around the world, 3 door loading is a reality.

We'll see if customers ask for this feature...

Quoting Zone1 (Reply 8):
With this increase in length I wonder how this will affect the 747's tail strike record, as there have been a few widely publicised tail strikes for 747s.

748i will incorporate the active tail strike avoidance features of the 773ER. Even with increased length, this system allows for a greater angle of attack and better lift performance.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 11):
Lets say that A388 production ramp-up is even slower than recently announced and EK can't get their 40 A388s for a long time.

EK may very well be the only airline to fly both (outside of a Chinese airline, which doesn't count). But EK has become the exception that proves the rule in this industry. I can't imagine airlines flying both types.

I see BA and CX buying the 748i without question, with potential sales to AI, SA, NZ, UA, NW and JL (in the future, if they recover from current problems). That's a minimum of 100 frames right there.
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eatmybologna
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:45 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
Afterall, even EK is taking more 773ERs to bridge the "capacity gap" rather then existing 744s or suggesting the 748I.

I think that's because they can get the 777s sooner, by about two years if I'm not mistaken.

E-M-B
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WingedMigrator
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:49 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
It curves around, and there is a '2-story atrium' effect across Door2, with clerestory windows.

It would be nice, but those clerestory windows will go the way of the piano lounges and bowling alleys.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
The upper deck is the size of a 737-100 (or larger?)

Would the increase in size, and potential door/slide redesign, require an evacuation test? As I recall the upper deck was never the subject of an evacuation test (although several such evacuations have taken place in operation)
 
bringiton
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:00 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
The 748i has a redesigned staircase design, at least as shown in the presentations. It curves around, and there is a '2-story atrium' effect across Door2, with clerestory windows

http://www.newairplane.com/747/funstuff/Videos.aspx

this video (2nd one) shows the new arrangment
 
ikramerica
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:20 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 16):
It would be nice, but those clerestory windows will go the way of the piano lounges and bowling alleys.

No, I think they will stay. I don't think there is a functional use for the space otherwise. But it could just be the weird angles of the walkthroughs that make it seem that way.

Notice how big the upper deck and space between Door 1 and Door 2 have gotten. Airlines could put a buttload of J seats into the 748i without having to place any behind door 2. In 2-3-2/2-2 you'd fit 78 J seats and 12-14F seats ahead of door 2. In NZ's configuration, 92 J seats fit.
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dank
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:28 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
I'm not denying that the 748I fits in-between the A388 and the 773ER/A346 in terms of capacity.

What I am saying is that I am starting to believe that an airline will not choose all three models, but instead will select the 773ER/A346 and either the A388 or the 748I.

Under this scenario, you will not see LH fly the A388, the 748, and the A346. They will fly only the A388 and the A346, replacing their 744s with both planes. Same with SQ, who will replace their 744s with the A388 and 773ER.

On the flip side, hypothetically if BA buys the 748I and the 773ER, they will not operate the A388. Same with CX (hypothetically).

I think that this is correct. In my mind, the longer version of the 748i seriously decreased the probability that LH was going to buy it.

cheers.
 
baron95
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:29 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 18):
Notice how big the upper deck and space between Door 1 and Door 2 have gotten. Airlines could put a buttload of J seats into the 748i without having to place any behind door 2.

I think that is actually a big selling point. On boarding F and J turn left, Y turns right. Segregates and expedites boarding. Y traffic through F and J after the F and J passangers are seated is one of the biggest complaints of premium passangers.
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2wingtips
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:29 pm

Well, what this tells us is that Boeing are going for the same length fuselage as the 748F(which was already assumed but not formally acknowledged by Boeing), and still preserving range at 8,000nm with pax/bags and meeting QC2 noise restrictions.
17 more seats than the shorter fuselage model.
Who is going to order first?
 
bringiton
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:31 pm

Some very very Rich VIP's !!
 
jacobin777
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:33 pm

Quoting Dank (Reply 19):
I think that this is correct. In my mind, the longer version of the 748i seriously decreased the probability that LH was going to buy it.

I agree.. checkmark ..but it does give the possibility of large orders from BA and CX.... pray 
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ikramerica
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:57 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 20):
I think that is actually a big selling point.

So do I. That's why I pointed it out.  Wink

It's also why I don't understand some of the configurations on the A380. If I were in charge, I'd make the whole upper deck premium, the whole main deck Y class. But I'm seeing a lot of proposed configurations with F/Y on the main deck and J/Y on the upper deck, meaning many Y pax will be filing through the J cabin to get to their seats, either boarding from the upper door, or from door 1 up the stairs.
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Johnny
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:49 pm

@ Stitch

But don´t you think that the chance of the B748I in a direct competition with the A388 as the SOLE big airplane in a fleets are worse than as a gap-filler,like the airplane was thought to be before?

The airlines then have to decide what to do: Take the last member of a very good and proven design AND look for a new bigger airplane in some years time if the seat demand increases like the last years.OR buy the smallest member of a brandnew design with lots of teething problems but with the possibility to grow to longer-range or stretch versions within the same airplane-family.

Your view of the B748I/A388 could be a dangerous way for Boeing, couldn´t it?
 
Danny
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:05 pm

"Since the successful launch of the 747-8 program last year"

Is that a joke? They just admitted that the plane they launched a year ago had zero orders because it was too small and their assessment of the VLA market was wrong.
 
bringiton
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:41 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 26):
They just admitted that the plane they launched a year ago had zero orders because it was too small and their assessment of the VLA market was wrong.

As you might not know the launched a program but hadnt competely defined the aircraft nor firmed up the configuration much like the 787 which went through some change including greater PAX before the designs were firmed up , as randy explains through the process of wind tunnel testing and design refining they created effeciencies which translated into range while the Customers that were showing interest wanted some more PAX/loads no.s instead of the added range therefore they changed that aswell as made it more common to the F version - and it hasnt been 12 months since launch 9 launch was in nov?? ) and they have 44 orders plus 3 VIP's for it allready!!
 
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keesje
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:02 pm

Funny to see how Randy sell's this as as a further improvement & everyone eats it.

If it would have an airbus design change it would have a faulty design, they didn't listen to the market, an embarrassing correction certainly leading to delays and cost escalations would be on the table / in the press.

Seattle Post Intelligencer : "Boeing corrects 747 design after ailine critic"

nah...

Well done Randy!

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bringiton
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:09 pm

Please direct us to where randy or any other boeing employee has publically bashed airbus for changing designs mid stream ? Boeing has itself done this with the 787 after the launch so they will look utterly stupid if they make such a comment !!
 
2wingtips
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:10 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 28):
Funny to see how Randy sell's this as as a further improvement & everyone eats it.

If it would have an airbus design change it would have a faulty design, they didn't listen to the market, an embarrassing correction certainly leading to delays and cost escalations would be on the table / in the press.

Seattle Post Intelligencer : "Boeing corrects 747 design after ailine critic"

You continue to live in your deluded world Keesje. How about Boeing went to the airlines and the consensus was to trade a bit of range for a bit extra capacity. That's all we're talking about here. 17 more seats and a retention of range at 8,000nm. Don't see anything remotely embarrassing about it, I'm afraid. Maybe you are the one who should be embarrassed.
 
legoguy
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:13 pm

Will the hump (top deck) on the 747-8F be the same length as the top deck on the passenger 747-8I? Or will the cargo version have a shortened hump like the 747-400 freighters?
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DAYflyer
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:44 pm

Interesting confirmation of the rumors.

I dont think Randy would design a plane the customers didn't want. If the A-380 was for everyone, why bother? There is obvious airline interest in it, but as for how many will order it, that remains to be seen.

I do think it is interesting that Randy touts the advantages of the 8I the same day BA asks for the long haul RFP from both manufacturers.....
One Nation Under God
 
bringiton
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:47 pm

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 32):
I dont think Randy would design a plane the customers didn't want

I dont think he designs aircraft  Wink
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:51 pm

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 33):
dont think he designs aircraft

In broad general terms, yes he does. He tells the engineers what the customers are telling him, and in it goes to the design if practicle.
One Nation Under God
 
phollingsworth
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:55 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 28):
Funny to see how Randy sell's this as as a further improvement & everyone eats it.

If it would have an airbus design change it would have a faulty design, they didn't listen to the market, an embarrassing correction certainly leading to delays and cost escalations would be on the table / in the press.

Seattle Post Intelligencer : "Boeing corrects 747 design after ailine critic"

Your inherent assumption is that the SPI headline is inherently correct and complete. It may or may not be. As best as I can tell several airlines, to which Boeing proposed the 748I, responded by saying they would like a little more capacity. What probably happened at the time was Boeing responded by telling them that they could have more capacity and less range of the keep the capacity and range. However, when Boeing ID'd additional improvements, which may or may not have been stimulated by the airlines' requests, they offered the choice of either the same capacity with increased range, or greater capacity at increased range. Obviously the potential customers desire increased range.

Now where is the mistake, it might have been in the original sizing of the aircraft. However, there may have been other constraints that lead to this size, without more informaiton you cannot make any claim of mistake without more information
 
Danny
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 28):
If it would have an airbus design change it would have a faulty design, they didn't listen to the market, an embarrassing correction certainly leading to delays and cost escalations would be on the table / in the press.

Exactly what we heard when the A350 was redesigned. But obviously that was because Airbus had no clue.  banghead 
 
bringiton
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:02 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 36):
Exactly what we heard when the A350 was redesigned. But obviously that was because Airbus had no clue

It is bordering on insanity to compare the slight design change of the I to the design change which followed the A350 which went from a suped up 330 to a clean sheet design all together adding 2 years to EIS and close to 4-5 Billion $ in cost although Airbus did very well in listening to their customers and giving them what they wanted and hats off to them .
 
parapente
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:04 pm

Why can't you access the "crown" from the rear of the upper deck. It would make sense.
 
Danny
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:08 pm

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 37):
slight design change

Extending fuselage on two decks by over 4 meters following total sales failure is a slight change? Well, you can believe in whatever you want.
 
zvezda
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:20 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 1):
Is the -8i going to have to take advantage of the three-jetway configuration being installed for the A380 at some airports in order to maintain existing passenger loading and un-loading turnaround times?



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 6):
Unless the door is re-designed to a regular passenger door and is no longer the current upward opening door used as an emergency exit, I don't see it happen.

The door is also in two parts. Only the upper part slants outward in your photo. The lower part (about 60cm or 2ft high above the floor) remains fixed in position (after the upper door swings outward) until the slide contained therein deploys. So, passengers would have to step over a 60cm door section to embark/disembark. Using a jetbridge there would require a complete and total redesign of the door and the price cannot be justified. Boarding the upper deck of a B747-400 is not a problem. This stretch will add two rows of business class, or 8 seats, to most upper deck configurations.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 13):

I still would like to see Boeing get the -8I to about 475 passangers to leave some room for a 777-400 at 380 or so passangers. I believe that plane (774) will be needed to fight off the A350XWB-1000.

The B777-400X is dead. It was ruled out when Boeing launched the SuperJumbo. I don't see any chance of a revival -- especially now that the B777 is being superseded by the (also 9 abreast) B787.

Quoting Johnny (Reply 25):
The airlines then have to decide what to do: Take the last member of a very good and proven design AND look for a new bigger airplane in some years time if the seat demand increases like the last years.OR buy the smallest member of a brandnew design with lots of teething problems but with the possibility to grow to longer-range or stretch versions within the same airplane-family.

The choice you pose, from an airlines perspective, is: Which do we value more, fleet commonality with a hypothetical plane which may or may not be produced and which we may or may not fit our future business requirements or fleet commonality right now with a real airliner that is already in our fleet?

Quoting Danny (Reply 26):
"Since the successful launch of the 747-8 program last year"

Is that a joke? They just admitted that the plane they launched a year ago had zero orders because it was too small and their assessment of the VLA market was wrong.

The B747-8 program includes the freighter. On the basis of the freighter alone, it has been a successful launch by any measure.

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 31):
Will the hump (top deck) on the 747-8F be the same length as the top deck on the passenger 747-8I? Or will the cargo version have a shortened hump like the 747-400 freighters?

The freighter will retain the small hump, as shown in illustrations in this thread.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:51 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 13):
I still would like to see Boeing get the -8I to about 475 passengers to leave some room for a 777-400 at 380 or so passengers. I believe that plane (774) will be needed to fight off the A350XWB-1000.

A decade's worth of improvements in structure and powerplants should keep the 773ER at least viable against the A350XWB-1000. If Airbus does increase the length of the plane to match the capacity of the 773ER (and A346), that's going to hurt her performance a bit (as it did the original 787-10 design). Plus the 777-300 is already the maximum stretch for that model.

Quoting Johnny (Reply 25):
But don´t you think that the chance of the B748I in a direct competition with the A388 as the SOLE big airplane in a fleets are worse than as a gap-filler, like the airplane was thought to be before?

Not necessarily. As Zvezda and others have noted, there are many hundreds of 747-400s that need to be replaced. More airlines that operate the 747-400 have not yet ordered the A380-800 then those who have. Many of them do not need to worry about slots due to frequency and traffic issues or they have code-shares with the major airlines at the hub (AA has BA at LHR and UA has LH at FRA, for example).

Therefore, I expect more airlines will choose the 748 over the A388 then will choose the 748 in addition to the A388. Yes, many will choose (and have chosen) the A388 over the 748, but there is nothing Boeing can do about those particular battles.

Quote:
The airlines then have to decide what to do: Take the last member of a very good and proven design AND look for a new bigger airplane in some years time if the seat demand increases like the last years OR buy the smallest member of a brandnew design with lots of teething problems but with the possibility to grow to longer-range or stretch versions within the same airplane-family.

Again, it depends on the customer and how they can handle that traffic growth. BA has plenty of slots at LHR so they don't need the A388 to expand. And airports like NRT are expanding and we have new airports in HKG and BKK and elsewhere in Asia with plenty of space.
 
legoguy
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:54 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 28):



Quoting Zvezda (Reply 40):
The freighter will retain the small hump, as shown in illustrations in this thread.

Whoopps, I missed that picture. I don't think the image appeared on my screen in University. That's my excuse.

Thanks,

I can't wait until I see both of them flying. I watched a programme on the 747 introduction, and hell, the small hump looks great! Slightly better than the larger hump.

Would a larger hump not allow more space for cargo?
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:55 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 1):
That upper deck on the -8i is getting mighty long. I can't imagine hustling even more passengers up that narrow staircase that is found on existing 744's. Is the -8i going to have to take advantage of the three-jetway configuration being installed for the A380 at some airports in order to maintain existing passenger loading and un-loading turnaround times?

As stated above, upper deck access won't happen because of the door configuration. I also don't think you'll see economy seating on the 748i upper deck because I think you'll start running into evacuation issues. I don't know what the criteria is for how many passengers per door is. What that in mind, you probably won't anything "fancier" that business class on the upper deck to keep the passenger count lower. As far as jetways go, you may see more dual jetway such as these.


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Quoting Legoguy (Reply 31):

See reply #28.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
boeingbus
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:20 pm

Interesting note from his blog:

"all the interior improvements based on the 787 interior - for unprecedented passenger appeal."

This is a NEW statement. The 748I was supposed to be based on the 777 interior... This is very cool!
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
RIHNOSAUR
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:31 pm

OK

first question I have is the following:

So its clear that they have stretched the current 744 design in general to come up with this new 747 8....however I am curious...
is the ratio of the upper deck length to entire length kept the same ....or does the upper deck length of the 748 make up a larger fraction of the length of the plane?? (sort of when they did the 744 as compared to the 747 200)

and just as comment,

Quoting Johnny (Reply 25):
The airlines then have to decide what to do: Take the last member of a very good and proven design AND look for a new bigger airplane in some years time if the seat demand increases like the last years.

don't get me wrong I think the 747 design in general is great and has demonstrated tons of success for many decades...but....it is important to put into perspective that it really has not had any competition and IMO a harder test to pass is when you outperform the competition.....

I have flown on the 747 on several occasions and given that it is an spectacular plane..I do have to add that its pretty cramped up in the second deck....and it does not seem like Boeing is changing the cross section of their design, so prospects of a roomier upper deck are slim...it will be longer...and newer ..but not very innovative...I mean this cross section design comes from the 60's (right?).....
Just my opinion...not trying to piss any one off.
particles and waves are the same thing, but who knows what that thing is...
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 27):
As you might not know the launched a program but hadnt competely defined the aircraft nor firmed up the configuration much like the 787 which went through some change including greater PAX before the designs were firmed up , as randy explains through the process of wind tunnel testing and design refining they created effeciencies which translated into range while the Customers that were showing interest wanted some more PAX/loads no.s instead of the added range therefore they changed that aswell as made it more common to the F version - and it hasnt been 12 months since launch 9 launch was in nov?? ) and they have 44 orders plus 3 VIP's for it allready!!

I'd say the first period of the 747-8 program has been very successful. Specifically on the freighter side. With those 44 orders it has more than doubled A380F orders. Unfortunately for Airbus the A380F has been all but completely rejected by general cargo operators...

Now Boeing is responding in a positive fashion to what potential customers are looking for in a passenger aircraft. The ability to do so speaks volumes about Boeing's current capability and resources. In point of fact with overhead galley cart storage configuration the longer -8i can accommodate 479 in a three class configuration. We will definitely see some "Blue Chip" orders for the -8i relatively soon.

In the beginning I had many reservations about the 747-8 passenger program, and I still do. But the dramatic increases in efficiency and integration of new technology is going to keep the 747 competitive for some years to come it seems...


-widebodyphotog
If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
Johnny
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:09 am

@RHINOSAUR
"it will be longer...and newer ..but not very innovative...I mean this cross section design comes from the 60's (right?)....."

Oh my god.What would have happened to me , IF i would have written that here... Wink

The market will decide very soon IF the airlines need this airplane oder if they all can stick with the A346/B777-300ER as their biggest passenger-airplane or if they go the B748I or A388-way (or both)

In my opinion there is a huge demand for the B748F, but no big market for the B748I.

But as i said the market will decide.
 
B2707SST
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:28 am

Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 45):
I have flown on the 747 on several occasions and given that it is an spectacular plane..I do have to add that its pretty cramped up in the second deck....and it does not seem like Boeing is changing the cross section of their design, so prospects of a roomier upper deck are slim...it will be longer...and newer ..but not very innovative...I mean this cross section design comes from the 60's (right?).....
Just my opinion...not trying to piss any one off.

Economy on the upper deck is pretty cramped, but having flown BA's Club World product upstairs three or four times now, it's probably the best in-flight experience I've ever had. Their upstairs cabin is very quiet, has a higher crew-, galley-, and lav-to-pax ratio than normal, and is generally a very intimate and welcoming space.

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Randy Talks About The 747-8!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 39):
Extending fuselage on two decks by over 4 meters following total sales failure is a slight change? Well, you can believe in whatever you want.

Whatever.

The change is 2m from before. It is a slight change. Or better, a slight CORRECTION, as the newspaper calls it. but it is slight. We are talking a 3% increase of overall length in length in a "straight" section of the fuselage.

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 44):
"all the interior improvements based on the 787 interior - for unprecedented passenger appeal."

That is new. Going to the 747-8 launch website, it clearly says 777 interior and 787 technology. Now it's 787 interior and technology...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.

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