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Aaron747
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:01 pm

Are you sure your friend is a private pilot? Maybe it's time to head back to ground school if he's getting scared in situations like these...
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Jerald01
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:04 pm

Years ago on a B-707 going from Chicago to Paris I noticed, of all things, a glove sticking out of a panel on the top of the wing just after we take the active. I notified an F/A, who (after take-off) notified the front-end crew.

The Flight Engineer comes back, takes a look, goes back to the cockpit. The Co-pilot comes back, takes a look, goes back to the cockpit. The Captain comes back, takes a look, goes back to the cockpit.

A few minutes later the Captain comes on the intercom and asks if anyone is missing a glove. He then thanks the passenger who brought this to the F/A's attention, says that it is apparently no big problem (except for the person who now has only one glove), and that we might want to watch to see when it departs the aircraft.

The glove took a trans-oceanic ride, finally blowing away just as we touched down at Paris. As I recall, just about everyone on that side of the airplane had their eyes glued to that glove, and, when it came off, we all let out a cheer.

They just don't make tough gloves like that anymore....
"There may be old pilots, and there may be bold pilots, but there are darn few green cows"
 
Type-Rated
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:15 pm

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 19):
im sorry where in my post did i mention the flight attendent calling the flight deck. i said that i might be a little nurvous and that i would ask the captain on landing.

Right here you did....

Quoting Jumbojet (Thread starter):
e tells the FA about the flaps not being set and the FA reaches for the phone to the flight deck but then hangs it up w/o saying anything

She had phone in hand, so this shows intent to call, but she probably decided that this would not have been a great idea and abandoned the idea.

AA is not WN. The corporate culture there is a bit different. Anyway, CRM is for the flight deck crew, not the F/A's.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
sk909
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:29 pm

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 16):
plus the only stupid question is the question not asked.

the only stupid thing, is that statement!!!

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 19):
Thirdly maybe if passengers were a little more vocal about possible "issues" with the aircraft we could lower passenger fears and accidents.

Or the opposite!!!

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 19):
i suppose its out of the question for a young aviation enthusiast to even attempt to be knowlegeable in his/her field of study.

Well if you're an aviation enthusiast, do you consider yourself knowledgeable? I don't see that you are knowledgeable!!!

Spend 3-5 years on a pilot education, and we can talk again!
Life's for Living!
 
We're Nuts
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:33 pm

Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 52):
Anyway, CRM is for the flight deck crew, not the F/A's.

Patently false. Crew resource management is taught to FA's and pilots. We work together as a team in the sky.
Dear moderators: No.
 
757drvr
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:37 pm

Type-Rated,
As a captain, during the crew briefing, I encourage ALL crew members to speak up if they think they see something that doesn't look right. I would rather have a FA break sterile cockpit to tell me something that was a serious concern them, than to have them sit there and not tell me something that they should have out of fear of having to deal with the capt. afterwards.

We're Nuts,
You're absolutely right! Everyone on the crew has an important role in safety. If at any time the safety of the flight is in question, it is your duty to say something whether it's sterile cockpit or not.
 
AzoresLover
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:37 pm

Quoting Captaink (Reply 11):
The takeoff speed is a little higher if i am not mistaken.

I'm not a pilot, so sorry if this is a dumb question. But I know there is a maximum tire speed, and since a no-flap take-off can be done but does require a little more ground speed before rotation, how close does a takeoff like this come to max tire speed?
Those who want to do something will find a way; those who don't will find an excuse.
 
Jahmike
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:43 pm

The first time I saw this was on a CO Airbus back in the day. It did freak me out for a minute. I asked some of the mechanics a couple days later and they told me that these planes do this all the time.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:43 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 13):
MCO-MIA is a tourist leg offloading all the Disneywolrd tourists from South America to their connection rides in MIA

People do take that flight for other connections. Not just for South America Connections.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 31):
An FA isn't gonna know what's right and wrong. The guys up front are in control...

Wrong. Some are. As I am not a F/A but am very familiar with the 757, 737, CRJ and Dash 8. If i'm concerned, i'll ask the pilots after landing. Usually, they'll thank me, but show me the proper procedures that I pointed out. He had every right to be concerned.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
jumbojet
Topic Author
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:47 pm

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 35):
Advice to all nervous flyers-

My friend is not a nervous flyer, just a contientious one. He ony has a PPL and has probably not read the A300 manual so to his credit, give him a break.

Quoting MiCorazonAzul (Reply 47):
It's not like the guy got up and starting yelling "we're gonna die"

No, he didnt get up and run like mad to the flight deck banging on the door, kicking and screaming.

Quoting Flyingbronco05 (Reply 49):
Quoting Tsaord (Reply 9):
Your friend is a backseat Flyer huh?

Next time tell him to let the Flight Deck crew fly the plane.

I wonder if he thought they were turning at the outer marker and I also wonder if he has logged the same amount of hours as a passenger as a licensed commercial pilot

I love a good sense of humor, LOL

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 50):
Are you sure your friend is a private pilot? Maybe it's time to head back to ground school if he's getting scared in situations like these...

Nothing wrong with getting a little scared, especially if you expect flaps for take-off. Again, I think there must be other folks out there with a PPL that would reasonably expect to see flaps on take-off and might get a little scared or nervous in the same situation. He simply told the FA who decided at the last instant, (maybe cause he/she remembered the plane is an A300 and can do this) that a notif. to the flight deck wasn't necessary.

A question to all you F/A's out there who work on the A300. Have the pilots ever informed you that the A300 is capable of 0 flaps take-off?
 
A342
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:48 pm

Quoting Jerald01 (Reply 51):

A question related to your story: Was the glove stuck between the actual wing and a spoiler ? I mean, when that one would be extended on landing, the glove would come off.

So: why didn't the pilot chose to deploy the spoiler a little bit ? Is this not possible ?
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Pope
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:55 pm

Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 5):
I think the reason the F/A did not say anything on the intercom is that most pilots would be very sensitive about a F/A calling the flight deck and telling them that they have no flaps. This would be tanamount to telling the Captain how to fly the plane.

So in your mind, if the FA on the Comair flight noticed that the plane was lined up on the wrong runway, she should have kept her mouth shut?
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
aviopic
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 59):
Nothing wrong with getting a little scared, especially if you expect flaps for take-off.

It was you who said:

Quoting Jumbojet (Thread starter):
My friend now is really in a panic as the plane begings its take-off roll.

In which case he should not be flying or even near an aircraft.
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
MD88Captain
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:00 pm

Tell your friend to shut up and die like a man. (Insert smiley face thingy here.)
 
aero0729
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:11 pm

Your freind is idiotic. Short flight, low amount of fuel on board, the aircraft was fairly light. Tell your freind to let the pilots do the work.
 
aero0729
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:15 pm

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 62):
In which case he should not be flying or even near an aircraft.

Agreed.
 
YYZYYT
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:17 pm

I say good for the friend who raised it with the FA.

For those who think it is not appropriate for FA to call in a question re. flaps, or any other flying issue, because that would be "calling into question the pilots' ability to fly the plane"... Isn't this attitude (or one much like it) what caused / contributed to disaters such as Tenerife or Guam?

And, no I am not a pilot, but in my own career I don't get offended when people point out potential problems and mistakes. I believe I am good at what I do, but I do miss things from time to time - as does EVERYBODY. I would never DREAM of telling off my assistant for raising a potential mistake, I thank her for her initiative, encourage her to continue exercising good sense, and if applicable explain why there is no mistake.

I don't say this to bash pilots, who as a whole are competent, professional and just plain good at what they do. I just have a problem with the attitude that "I can not make a mistake".

That said, I do see the point that frivolous interruptions are potentially dangerous, and that calls to the flight deck should not made lightly. Surely the answer is that the FA has to use his/her best judgment, and decide if the problem is sufficiently serious? and surely the FA would have some idea whether flaps are necessary on a 300 as opposed to a MD80? Once more, a reminder that FA's are an essential part of the crew and not just glorified waiters.

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 15):
oting Type-Rated (Reply 5):
I think the reason the F/A did not say anything on the intercom is that most pilots would be very sensitive about a F/A calling the flight deck and telling them that they have no flaps. This would be tanamount to telling the Captain how to fly the plane. If she had said something, I would not have wanted to be in her shoes at the end of the flight.

Every captain I've flown with has told me that if I see something that makes me uncomfortable, I should call and tell them about it. If I had one who was "sensitive" about me looking out for my life, I would ask to be removed from the trip.



Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 41):
Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 15):
Every captain I've flown with has told me that if I see something that makes me uncomfortable, I should call and tell them about it. If I had one who was "sensitive" about me looking out for my life, I would ask to be removed from the trip.

Exactly true, any FA that is concerned about anything, whether it be flaps through to an unusual noise, should report it to the Captain, prior to, during or after the flight. Thats what is know as a good line of communication between employee's.

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Revelation
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:17 pm

Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 5):
If you are not on the flight deck all you can do is go along for the ride knowing that your crew is knowledgable about the operational situation of the aircraft during the various phases of flight, hopefully.

Wrong! In the Kegworth crash, the pilots had an engine failure, but shut down the wrong engine. They were limping along on the bad engine, and it was still shooting out flames, etc. The passengers and cabin crew of course noticed this, but they didn't say anything to the flight deck crew because they assumed they knew what they were doing. Had they said something in a timely fashion, perhaps the good engine would have been restarted and 47 deaths avoided.

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 15):
Every captain I've flown with has told me that if I see something that makes me uncomfortable, I should call and tell them about it. If I had one who was "sensitive" about me looking out for my life, I would ask to be removed from the trip.

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jumbojet
Topic Author
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:20 pm

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 62):
Quoting Jumbojet (Thread starter):
My friend now is really in a panic as the plane begings its take-off roll.

In which case he should not be flying or even near an aircraft.

I see, so your a man of steel? If you reasonably suspect a series of events to transpire before a flight for a safe take-off and they dont happen, then I'd panic to. But glad you have nerves of steel Aviopic. I will recommend to my friend that he read the manual for whatever plane he's gonna be on next so that something similar doesnt occurr.

Its obvious that there have been plane crashes in the past with improper to no flap settings. Obviously my friend didnt read the A300 manual before take-off and everything he had heard up until now, including his flight training, dictated the use of flaps. Yes, he shouldnt fly anymore, I say put him on the no fly list, is that a good idea Aviopic?
 
jumbojet
Topic Author
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:28 pm

you know what? a lot of you airline industry people really disgust me. Guess what, W/O the flying public, you'd be out of a job. God forbid an outsider points out a potential problem in your line of work and look at some of the replies? May I point out, as someone else did in another post, that a huge percentage of aviation accidents are the fault of one or both pilots? Maybe thats another factor that caused his reaction, have you given that any consideration?
 
jumbojet
Topic Author
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:43 pm

OK, I just got off the phone with Homeland security, the FAA and AA and have suggested my friend be placed on the no fly list. Hopefully this takes effect before his next flight.
 
aogdesk
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:52 pm

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 9):
Your friend is a backseat Flyer huh?

Next time tell him to let the Flight Deck crew fly the plane.

Quite a pompous statement from someone who probably has zero experience in anything related to aviation, with the exception of telling someone they can't take their 3.25 oz bottle of shampoo near the airplane.

What if a passenger noticed that there was fluid streaming from a spoiler actuator? Should he/she keep tight lipped because the crew MUST know about it? What if there's ice buildup on the wings? What if a panel is obviously loose? Flight crews are not infallible, thats why aircraft have built in configuration warning systems. Sometimes, even such systems are no match for a keen eye.
 
YYZYYT
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:07 am

Quoting Jerald01 (Reply 51):
The glove took a trans-oceanic ride, finally blowing away just as we touched down at Paris. As I recall, just about everyone on that side of the airplane had their eyes glued to that glove, and, when it came off, we all let out a cheer.

They just don't make tough gloves like that anymore....

It just proves the saying: a little tough glove won't hurt.
 
dairy
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:19 am

This is not the first time I´ve read (on a.net) from those panicing passengers in AB6 while flaps were not extended....I very often fly LH on their domestic or european flights with AB6. Departing in FRA on Rwy18W you can experience take-offs without extended flaps quite often - without panicing: take-off seems not different to those with extended flaps....


Also I ve read somewhere that AB6 AND B767 (?) are the only aircrafts that can take-off without extended flaps, all the others have to. Is that true?
A318/A319/A320/A321 AB3/A306/A310/A333/A343/A346 732/733/735/736/744/752/763/764/772/773 DH3 F70 F100 CR2 CR1 CR7 ATR42
 
IFEMaster
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:33 am

Quoting SK909 (Reply 53):
Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 16):
plus the only stupid question is the question not asked.

the only stupid thing, is that statement!!!

I am simply amazed at the arrogance in your statement, SK909. I've been alive long enough now to know that Alaska737's assessment of what constitutes a "stupid question" is absolutely 100% accurate.

A pilot's absolute number 1 priority is the safety of his aircraft, crew, and passengers. One pivotal part of safety in ANY job is communication. In my business, if any of my employees have questions or don't understand something, I want them to ask; even if they or I or even both of us believe it to be a "stupid question". Understanding breeds progress, and so I would encourage you to assess your statement again, and if you come to the same conclusion, would you care to explain to us how asking a "stupid question" is safer than not asking at all?

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 69):
a lot of you airline industry people really disgust me.

A.net is just like any forum, Jumbojet. There are some wonderful, knowledgable, kind, and humble people around who love to share their knowledge and answer the "stupid questions". Unfortunately there are also some arrogant and egotistical idiots around who give everyone else a bad rap, as witnessed by some of the so-called "experts" on this thread.
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
larspl
Posts: 351
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:36 am

alright people! just to make sure you don't get scared the next time we make a flaps-1 (only slats come out) take off on the A330.. It can be done!  Smile
facebook.com/ddaclassicairlines
 
aogdesk
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 72):
It just proves the saying: a little tough glove won't hurt.

YYZYYT, Am I the only one acknowledging your pun????
 
Jerald01
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:35 pm

RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:40 am

Reference "the glove":

Yes, I think it WAS sticking out from under a spoiler. I remember it was bright yellow (very little blood coming out of it, as I recall [ hehehe! ]). It just sort of gently waved to us out there all through the flight, then, in a blink of an eye, it was gone!

Sort of missed the little guy, you know?
"There may be old pilots, and there may be bold pilots, but there are darn few green cows"
 
BA787
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 16):
also i think i remember some plane crash where the flaps were not lowerd, might have been a DC-9/MD-80



Quoting LawnDart (Reply 23):
Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 16):
also i think i remember some plane crash where the flaps were not lowerd, might have been a DC-9/MD-80

727-200...MD80...just two I can remember off the top of my head...people died in both.

I might be wrong but I think you have your wirs crossed. There was an MD-80 crash caused by no spoilers (not no flaps) at Little Rock.


Might be wrong of course, but I haven't heard of any no flaps crashes!
 
aogdesk
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 69):
a lot of you airline industry people really disgust me

Look in the yellow pages under "Anger Management Therapists". I suspect the tics are getting worse too huh??
 
BA787
Posts: 2381
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:40 pm

RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:47 am

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 79):

To be fair, he posted a question and told you about his friends experience. Whether his friend was right or wrong, its worth checking something.


Aloha crash springs to mind. Many aviation professionals missed the vital sign that caused the crash One person assumed that the pilots knew they didn't, That mistake left a dedicated woman dead. So in theory his friend was right to question something unusual!!


Tom
 
gusnyc
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 23):
Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 16):also i think i remember some plane crash where the flaps were not lowered, might have been a DC-9/MD-80

A LAPA 737-200 crashed in Buenos Aires a few years ago, killing 69 people and taking the company to extinction because the pilot "forgot" to set up the flaps, and ignored the alarms. I was living there at that time, and I would be nervous looking at the wing as your friend did.

I am glad you posted this message. I didn't know about the planes taking off without flaps.
 
BA787
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:58 am

Quoting GusNYC (Reply 81):

I stand corrected. Didn't know about that one!
 
EXMEMWIDGET
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:02 am

I have been on a few F100 flights were the flaps were not used for takeoff. The Captain would give a P/A before takeoff explaining what was happening.
Ex DL and NW, current FX.
 
MD88Captain
Posts: 1224
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:05 am

Truthfully, the calls that come from the back about passengers "seeing" something are pretty rare and always addressed (in my experience). Most of the time it concerns something we already know about or something that is normal. But I've never seen anyone get irritated about it.

More often we get calls from FA's about abnormal noises or smells. About 10% of the time those calls are pretty legitimate problems (again, personal experience). My last call from a FA about a cabin problem was abnormal noise around a door. It turned out to be a torn door seal that downed the plane for the next leg.

In general I find that FA's know next to nothing about the technical issues of flying like weight & balance, flaps settings, dispatch requirements, wx issues, etc. So expecting them to recognize a normal flap setting from an abnormal one is expecting alot. But they do a good job of recognizing abnormal sounds, smells, etc. They know their environment very well. The exception to that is the 30 year FA who is flying a MD88 leg for the 1st time in 20 years. (Just had one of those and she was a fish out of water).

Bottom line. It is no big deal to bring a suspected abnormal to the crew's attention. The odds are exceptionally rare that it will amount to anything - so do not spend too much time worrying. But it will be addressed. Professionals know that 100+ set of eyes will catch more than 2 sets of eyes.
 
747luvr
Posts: 331
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:07 am

Quoting SK909 (Reply 53):

SK909: You're one arogant SOB. You're a real piece of work on your cutdowns on Alaska737's post.

I see that since you're an IT dork, you're also some aviation expert too huh?

Get a life and stop putting the kid down. Grow the F up.
 
jim650
Posts: 2
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:09 am

Has anyone been on a 767 with a no-flap take-off? Several people have posted here that this is also possible with a 767-200. I was on an AA 767 flight in 1993 (ORD to Milan) that I'm nearly certain was no-flap. Late in the taxi I told my friend sitting next to me that the flaps should have dropped. He didn't know much about airplanes and thought I didn't know what I was talking about. I remember my heart was pounding so fast on take-off, wondering if the plane was gonna lift off OK. To this day, until reading this post, I've wondered if I was somehow mistaken. Ever since then I've watched 767s taxiing for take-off and I've never seen one with retracted flaps.
 
BA787
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting SK909 (Reply 53):



Quoting 747LUVR (Reply 85):

Agreed Patronising or whaT!
 
n314as
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:30 pm

RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:15 am

It was standard to see Air Jamaica, Balair, and Carnival A300/A310s to take off flapless in Miami (although
leading edge slats were used). The A300/310 wing is
large and has less sweep allowing this type of take off
to be possible under certain circumstances.
No signature
 
wukka
Posts: 884
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting BA787 (Reply 78):
I might be wrong but I think you have your wirs crossed. There was an MD-80 crash caused by no spoilers (not no flaps) at Little Rock.


Might be wrong of course, but I haven't heard of any no flaps crashes!

You haven't? I might also be wrong of course, but I think you may have your "wirs" crossed.

There are plenty of "no flaps" crashes on the books. I'm not going to tell you which ones, since you're a young'un and you can do your own homework.

There are audibles (CVR recordings), transcripts, and safety reports about "no flaps" crashes. Start out with http://www.ntsb.gov and click on "Aviation".
We can agree to disagree.
 
gusnyc
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:06 am

RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:55 am

Correction to my previous post. Sixty five people perished in that accident.

LAPA 3142 (Buenos Aires, Aug 31st 1999.

Interesting reading (the cockpit transcription) and more details in Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAPA_flight_3142

There was also a movie about that accident. Trailer available at:
http://www.aquafilms.com.ar/ingles/films_wrz_ing.html


Now, this is an answer for all the nasty responses to a guy who thought something was wrong and tried to help in a respectful, civilized manner. He didn't try to open the emergency door or started to scream like a nut case.

What is the problem with that?

Gus
 
BA787
Posts: 2381
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:40 pm

RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting Wukka (Reply 89):
You haven't? I might also be wrong of course, but I think you may have your "wirs" crossed.

There are plenty of "no flaps" crashes on the books. I'm not going to tell you which ones, since you're a young'un and you can do your own homework.

There are audibles (CVR recordings), transcripts, and safety reports about "no flaps" crashes. Start out with http://www.ntsb.gov and click on "Aviation

See reply 82 old'un Eyesight catching up I see Big grin
 
VC-10
Posts: 3552
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 1999 11:34 am

RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 5):
I think the reason the F/A did not say anything on the intercom is that most pilots would be very sensitive about a F/A calling the flight deck and telling them that they have no flaps. This would be tanamount to telling the Captain how to fly the plane. If she had said something, I would not have wanted to be in her shoes at the end of the flight.

Not these days. It is called crew resource management. All crews are trained to report anything they are unsure about to the Flt Dk. In the UK this was a result of the 737 that landed short at East Midlands after the FD had shut down the wrong engine. A Cabin Attendant thought something was amiss but did report it.
 
jumbojet
Topic Author
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:16 am

Anyway, I want to thank all the people that responded to my post in a courteous, professional and respectful manner.

Have a nice day!  Smile
 
andz
Posts: 7719
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:49 pm

RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:21 am

I didn't read every reply but I recall the same mild discomfort one day on an SAA A300 departing JNB, I thought "no flaps, odd" then "the crew know what they are doing" then "nice take off". Discomfort over.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
bphendri
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:18 am

RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:25 am

I allmost the same reaction flying VTBD - VVTS on an Airbus 320, though I did not ring the flight attendant.

I too was a bit concerned that I did not see flap extension, I even mentioned to my dad in an email once I arrived in Saigon. I later did some research on the web and found out that it was a normal takeoff. On the Airbus model I was flying on, the flaperons (terminology may be inc.), droop down to provide extra lift.

I would have very stupid if I had brought it to the FA's attention.
 
peteg913
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:31 am

RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:34 am

Just a huge overreaction.
 
FedExMEM
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:13 am

RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:38 am

Quote:
This is interesting...

I'm wondering, why exactly are turbojet aircraft supposed to use a limited flap setting?

It's all about noise abatement. They are trying to keep the people on the ground from complaining about "all the noise those big planes are making." Landing with full flaps requires a much higher power setting due to the increased drag.
 
N757ST
Posts: 1018
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:51 am

Quoting Wukka (Reply 89):

You haven't? I might also be wrong of course, but I think you may have your "wirs" crossed.

There are plenty of "no flaps" crashes on the books. I'm not going to tell you which ones, since you're a young'un and you can do your own homework.

There are audibles (CVR recordings), transcripts, and safety reports about "no flaps" crashes. Start out with http://www.ntsb.gov and click on "Aviation".

And most of those are on older aircraft such as DC-9s... modern aircraft have config warnings that would alert the crew to any misconfig on the takeoff... and not just flaps. My aircraft will give trim, spoiler, parking break... etc warnings if they are out of T.O. settings. One of our jobs before takeoff when lining up is to assure a config OK message comes up just so that we prevent this kind of thing. This guy could have caused a panic for speaking up when he had no idea what he was talking about.. he was out of line.
 
LuckyEddie
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:42 pm

RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting N757ST (Reply 98):
And most of those are on older aircraft such as DC-9s... modern aircraft have config warnings that would alert the crew to any misconfig on the takeoff... and not just flaps. My aircraft will give trim, spoiler, parking break... etc warnings if they are out of T.O. settings. One of our jobs before takeoff when lining up is to assure a config OK message comes up just so that we prevent this kind of thing. This guy could have caused a panic for speaking up when he had no idea what he was talking about.. he was out of line.

The DC-9 does have a config warning, as did the Delta 727 that crashed at DFW. In both cases it did not work. I hope you are not an airline pilot because if you are you missed the point of CRM class. Passengers and cabin crew should absolutely voice concerns prior to takeoff, this is a lesson which I thought had been learned, most notably at Kegworth. Of course FAs are also trained not to disturb the crew during the takeoff, concerns should be raised before the roll commences. The original post is a bit hazy about the exact timing.

Some relevant links for those interested, first Kegworth:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19890108-0

And then the takeoff config accident that comes to mind:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19880831-2

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