EK156
Topic Author
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 8:01 pm

Let's Buy Alitalia

Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:30 pm

Prodi - PM of Italy - recently announced that unless they come up wit a plan from now till January, Alitalia will go Bust!!!

So I was thinking.... maybe A.netters can buy Alitalia.... that would be cool if that happened..... Ahhhhhh.... Wishful thinking...

So who do you think would be the best contender to buyout Alitalia? It would definitely open up the Italian market for them!

Wasn't EK hinting?
 
baw716
Posts: 1463
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02 pm

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:47 pm

EK156,
You have the right idea...we just need about $1 billion US to get them out of the hole they are in, plus about another $1-2 billion to fix it.

A) Money is not the issue. Management is the issue. Unions are the issue. Government interference is the issue. If the Italian government were to sell its stake outright to a consortium from outside Italy (with a mandate that a certain percentage ownership were to remain in Italy under private control), that is a good first step.

B) This does not, however, solve the problem of the laws in Italy that allow the unions to get away with the stuff they get away with in Italy. The Railway Act in the USA prevents airline workers from doing the kind of striking that happens in Italy as a matter of course. Management can't do what it needs to do to be competitive because the unions have too much power and that power was given to them by the government and the government will not give it away (it's called political suicide).

Alitalia's newest iteration of its "industrial plan" has at its core the search for another airline with whom it can develop "syngeries". In other words, it's looking for someone to buy it out. Until B above happens, anyone from outside the country wanting to invest in Alitalia is tossing money down a rathole, since unless you can get control of the employee groups and have them work together, nothing will happen. Noone from within the country will buy the airline because they know the same thing...

I have said all along that Alitalia has tremendous potential...can it operate with two hubs...yes, with the right combination of flying, a dual hub operation can work (which is the only way AZ can work due to dynamics in Italy).

BUT...the reality is that nothing will change in the timeframe that Prodi has given to save the airline.

This is the saddest point of all.

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:20 pm

Ownership will have to remain 50% plus one share Italian, for AZ to retain their route rights to countries outside of the EU.

But I'll put in a Euro, maybe two
 
StarGoldLHR
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:29 am

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:26 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 2):
50% plus one share Italian

Italian or European ?

If it's Italian, surely thats against EU Regulations on free movement of goods and people ?
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
Slovacek747
Posts: 634
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:10 pm

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:57 pm

First thing to is get rid of the white livery.. No white at all on the plane!  Smile

Slovacek747
 
UKCO
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 10:15 am

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting EK156 (Thread starter):

So I was thinking.... maybe A.netters can buy Alitalia.... that would be cool if that happened

This would create a management issue. There would never be any agreement about which planes to buy.
 
ZRHnerd
Posts: 830
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:20 pm

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:08 pm

Quoting UKCO (Reply 5):
There would never be any agreement about which planes to buy.

lmao, exactly what I was thinking aswell Big grin
 
zvezda
Posts: 8886
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:30 pm

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 1):
Money is not the issue. Management is the issue. Unions are the issue. Government interference is the issue.

 checkmark  When labour unions are illegal in Italy and full and complete privatization is on the table, get back to us. Until then, AZ is not a viable investment.
 
b777a340fan
Posts: 675
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:42 am

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:21 am

Nah, not worth it! You'd better save your money and start your own airline from scratch. Sorry to say, but I wouldn't mind seeing AZ stay grounded.
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 3):
Italian or European ?

If it's Italian, surely thats against EU Regulations on free movement of goods and people ?

Yes, but ...
The EU is madly running around changing the nationality clause in Air Services Agreements between Member States and third countries. I think they have managed about five, maybe six. (Chile, Morocco, some of the 'Stans). So for these five/six - it would be majority owned by EU nationals. Everywhere else where Italy has a bilateral with the traditional clause - it would be majority owned by Italian nationals.

Maybe some years (decades) before the Eurocrats get this one sorted.
 
Seattle Ops
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 1999 7:35 am

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:52 am

The saying "how do you become a millionaire? Start with a billion, buy an airline and you'll become a millionaire" is never more true than with Alitalia.
Socialism and airlines just don't mix.
 
hjulicher
Posts: 698
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:26 pm

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:28 am

This could be completely bogus, but I do remember hearing that Aeroflot was interested in joining forces, buying Alitalia. I do know that Aeroflot is financially healthy, but I don't know if they can afford a merger like this one.
Detroit Moves the World!
LH 442
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:37 am

While you're at it, if you can save Alitalia, maybe the same success can be repeated with Olympic.

Both of these airlines are trying to lose weight by any means they can except by diet and exercise. Or, more precisely, like an alcoholic trying to figure out how to avoid a hangover without giving up drinking.

Both are great names serving great places, but they are dinosaurs who will probably die out rather than change. Very sad.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
beech19
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:30 am

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting EK156 (Thread starter):
So I was thinking.... maybe A.netters can buy Alitalia....

At USD$1bil... with 10,000 a.net users (a little more now) that would be $100,000 per user. No problem! We can have a bake sale! duck 

Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 4):
First thing to is get rid of the white livery.. No white at all on the plane!

Yay!!! Rid the world of boring liveries...

Quoting UKCO (Reply 5):
There would never be any agreement about which planes to buy.

No... but at least an A vs B thread would be allowed because it would be considered a "Procurement Meeting." All other threads would just be normal "Business Meetings"  Smile

Has there even been a poll on here seeing how the split is? A vs B? It would be fun to see the actual split on a.net. Just for kicks.
KPAE via KBVY
 
RAPCON
Posts: 651
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:20 am

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:02 am

Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 4):
First thing to is get rid of the white livery.. No white at all on the plane!

Slovacek747

..and for the tail we'll put the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Big version: Width: 596 Height: 519 File size: 43kb
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:06 am

Okay, if we're buying the airline, then we will re-design the tails a la Frontier and have different scenes of Italy on ever tail. Wouldn't visions of the different wonders of la bella Italia look stunning on A OR B aircraft? Same with Hellas.

The rest of the airplane is up to everyone else. I just want the tails.  praise 
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
futurecaptain
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:54 am

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:14 am

Quoting EK156 (Thread starter):
So I was thinking.... maybe A.netters can buy Alitalia

We would probably be outlawed from doing so because it would be anti-competitive due to the inside knowledge we have of most world airlines.

Not to mention our fleet? Wanna debate about economics of a/c? Lets just buy one of everything and see which is better?
AirSO. ASpaceO. ASOnline. ASO.com ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO.
 
beech19
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:30 am

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:24 am

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 16):
Not to mention our fleet? Wanna debate about economics of a/c? Lets just buy one of everything and see which is better?

Sweet! If we are buying one of everything... i'm ordereing up an LCF and get triple decks put into it with 1300 economy seats!!
Huh! Can we!? Please! LOL

Or... we can buy an LCF and get it filled up with McDonalds plastic balls... Rent it out for birthday parties... RFLOL!

Fly it around as a huge vomit comit?!

Put basket balls hoops in it and rent it out to NBA teams for charter. They can practice on the way.
KPAE via KBVY
 
CanadianNorth
Posts: 3237
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:41 am

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:07 pm

Buy something excitingly different and fly it to YXY every now and then and I'll throw in $20  Wink


CanadianNorth
HS-748, like a 747 but better!
 
futurecaptain
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:54 am

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:15 pm

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 1):
You have the right idea...we just need about $1 billion US to get them out of the hole they are in, plus about another $1-2 billion to fix it.



Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 18):
I'll throw in $20

Great. Our first commitment. YXY will be served by an IL-86, A380, and 727 daily for that generous contribution.  Wink

Now we only need $999,999,980 to get out of the hole and another 2 bil to fix it.

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 13):
We can have a bake sale!

Start baking, we are gonna need it it seems.  Smile
AirSO. ASpaceO. ASOnline. ASO.com ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO.
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:22 pm

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 19):
Great. Our first commitment.



Quoting ANother (Reply 2):
But I'll put in a Euro, maybe two

Hey! I was first - and I'm offering the currency of Italy. I'll double it and add another CHF5
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:32 pm

..I throw in 1000 $ - but want responsibility for human resource !
I'd start by declaring trade unions within AZ as illegal,have all employees fired and re-hire only 50 % of them once they sign a contract obliging them to not to adhere any TU !
Then I base 30% of their future salary on financial result,customer satisfaction and service-quality.Pilots will have to fly 15 % more flight-hours.
Ground-personel will be trained extensively on customer-care philosophy .
General Manager would be hired from outside Italy to prevent danger of political influence.
Italia does deserve better than the current AZ mess !!!
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:19 pm

There was a advert praising the design of a car, something along the lines, “Designed by Swiss, Built by Germans and driven by Italians” when the closing image showed a car crashing. As regards a.netters buying Alitalia, what better slogan than

Quote:
“Aircraft delivery delays by Airbust, run by Italian staff with attitudes, and managed by a.netters’ own teenage airline CEOs!”

 bigthumbsup 
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
YLWbased
Posts: 899
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:09 pm

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:31 pm

i could offer my gas station for a.netters for a car wash fund rasing, as long as i'm seeing a weekly YLW-Rome flight. hehe :p
Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
 
anax
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:20 pm

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:35 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 12):



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 12):
While you're at it, if you can save Alitalia, maybe the same success can be repeated with Olympic.

Both of these airlines are trying to lose weight by any means they can except by diet and exercise. Or, more precisely, like an alcoholic trying to figure out how to avoid a hangover without giving up drinking.

Both are great names serving great places, but they are dinosaurs who will probably die out rather than change. Very sad.

you are soooo right
 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 
god is a spotter!!!
 
wingedarrow
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 9:11 pm

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:36 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 21):
..I throw in 1000 $ - but want responsibility for human resource !
I'd start by declaring trade unions within AZ as illegal,have all employees fired and re-hire only 50 % of them once they sign a contract obliging them to not to adhere any TU !
Then I base 30% of their future salary on financial result,customer satisfaction and service-quality.Pilots will have to fly 15 % more flight-hours.
Ground-personel will be trained extensively on customer-care philosophy .
General Manager would be hired from outside Italy to prevent danger of political influence.
Italia does deserve better than the current AZ mess !!!

Here I am, ready!!!
אליטליה
 
TuRbUleNc3
Posts: 462
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:22 am

I was just wondering when the next 'lets all put together and buy an airline' thread would come about  sarcastic 
 
ca2ohHP
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:14 am

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:55 am

Quoting UKCO (Reply 5):
This would create a management issue. There would never be any agreement about which planes to buy.

Yeah I can't imagine what half of these debates would look like in person and off airliners.net.
 
BAtriple7
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:05 am

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:11 am

Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 27):
Quoting UKCO (Reply 5):
This would create a management issue. There would never be any agreement about which planes to buy.

Yeah I can't imagine what half of these debates would look like in person and off airliners.net.

Actually the fleet strategy for an AZ owned by A.netters would be pretty simple:

- MD80s replaced by those NW DC9-10s
- A few DC10s thrown in for the AMS route
- 777-300s for North American westcoast routes
- Internal routes served by Fokker 50s / Dash 8s
- a few 747SPs a la Syrian Air
- ...and about 400 A380 orders for 'future expansion'!

 Silly
 
ca2ohHP
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:14 am

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting BAtriple7 (Reply 28):
Actually the fleet strategy for an AZ owned by A.netters would be pretty simple:

- MD80s replaced by those NW DC9-10s
- A few DC10s thrown in for the AMS route
- 777-300s for North American westcoast routes
- Internal routes served by Fokker 50s / Dash 8s
- a few 747SPs a la Syrian Air
- ...and about 400 A380 orders for 'future expansion'!

Nice...now how many CEO's will there be?
 
boeingguy1
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:31 am

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:38 am

i only know of one person not letting unions get in the way in italy:....  Smile

want to know why mussolini was the only leader to get the trains on time in italy? because if they were late, you'd die.

just a quote from history class. could it be possible to let alitalia collapse, restart the airline w/o unions? just a thought.
"...Gatwick South!? Id rather crash in Brighton!"
 
N751PR
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 6:06 am

RE: Let's Buy Alitalia

Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:39 am

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 13):
No problem! We can have a bake sale!

Let me bake some humble pie then!  Wink
"Ladies and Gentlemen it's happy hour. You will get two approaches for the price of one."

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