Provance
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:52 pm

wow EI are putting the squeeze on BMIBaby @ ORK - first Birmingham now Manchester
EI, FR, BD, RE, UA, XL, US,
 
Poitin
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 46):
I think unfortunately we will actually be left in limbo for most of Nov guys

Probably correct for the reasons you give. I think MOL is going to wait to hear what the European Commission has to say.

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 47):
You guys on the outside just don't see the internal long term picture.

Ah, yes, as though you were MOL's right hand man. Both Kaitak and myself have had extensive experience in the business world. In my case it was in Silly Con Valley for thirty years, which was truly a mad house. And if you want to see nutters in action go to Goggle. Their CEO is mainly a baby sitter whose job is to control the two founding "fathers" of it.

I would say both Kaitak and I have a pretty good fix on what can and will happen. We have seen it all too many times before.

Have you looked at the FR stock prices lately? FR is still bouncing along at the E8.80 to 8.90 range, which is near their all time high. It seems to me the smart money is betting with MOL, not against him.

MOL is a very shrewd business man. You may not like what he does, and I for one think he has hurt too many in his climb to power. However, them are the rules.

As for this take over, he has been planning it for months, and he has a very detailed knowledge of EI, its organization, its strenghts and weaknesses. He may well know more about EI than DM does. He has done an excellent job of intelligence gathering. I am sure he knows exactly what EI is worth to the penny.

As for the bid itself, it was carefully orchestrated. They bought 16% or so in stealth mode and then did nothing on OCT 3 to prove that the natural market value of EI was E2.43. Then he made his announcement and the stock went to over E3. What did he do? Why he just raised his bid as everyone thought he would, didn't he? There was talk off E3.10 to as much as E3.50 and what did he do -- he did NOTHING.

At this point the smart money has realized that he is not going over E2.80. They hang in there around E2.83 just in case ESOPT breaks and goes for E2.85. If ESOPT were smart, that is what they should do. However, the pure testicular anger of their members keeps them from doing it. In the long term, ESOPT may rue their inaction.

MOL merely has to wait, and once he knows where the European Commission stands, he will act accordingly. I had expected him to start adding competitive flights, but he is bidding his time. He has time on his side and he knows it.

DM has only one way out and that is to lay off large numbers of people, which SIPTU will fight tooth and nail. MOL knows that.

Expect him to REDUCE his next offer after November 14. Maybe down to E2.60. Just a guess on my part, but he is playing big stakes poker and has at least five or six aces showing.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 11):
With talk that EI will base a fifth A320 at ORK next summer I'm sure we will see some more routes



Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 49):
New routes will see the airline fly from Cork to Manchester from March 2007, Cork to Madrid and Prague from next summer,

I was thinking about MAN for a long time, I'm glad EI are doing what FR have done at SNN more choice from two airlines is always good news.
Athens has been mentioned for a long while but it's great to see it confirmed.
 
kaitak
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:56 am

Have a look at this report on Airwise - some good, but some not so good, news for Big Green.

The good - pax numbers up on short haul, but the bad - Sept load factor down significantly, but about 7 percentage points to 72%, mainly due to the security issues. However, hopefully that's a one time only hit.

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1162296499.html

If EI were to be looking to pick up some 330s in a hurry (although I don't think they will be, right now), keep an eye on the threads running about Air Madrid; they seem to be running with a slight punctuality problem, with some delays of to 60 hours (2.5 days) and the Spanish civil aviation authorities look like they're likely to pull the AOC. Not that I want to come across like a vulture, but NM has two GE powered A330-200s which would be perfect for EI, after refit. As I say, they may not need them now, BUT if they're looking for additional capacity next Summer, it might be worth looking at taking them now. They also have an A330-300 grounded at BCN for a good long time, but they can keep that ... it's the former EI-SHN!
 
Poitin
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 53):
Have a look at this report on Airwise - some good, but some not so good, news for Big Green.

There is an ISE posting here:

http://www.ise.ie/app/announcementDetails.asp?ID=1328158

This is the interesting section
    Statistics for January to September, 2006

    For the nine months to September, 2006, scheduled passengers increased by 8.2% to 6,566,000 passengers carried, compared with 6,066,000 passengers carried in the same period in 2005.

    Short-haul passengers increased by 10.6%. Short-haul traffic measured in revenue passenger kilometres increased by 20.8% and passenger capacity measured in available seat kilometres increased by 22.9%. The short-haul passenger load factor was 77.1%, down 1.4 percentage points compared with 2005.

    Long-haul passengers decreased by 5.3% reflecting the discontinuation of the Orlando route and the negative impact of the terrorism alert in the United Kingdom in August 2006. Long-haul traffic measured in revenue passenger kilometres decreased by 5.9% and passenger capacity measured in available seat kilometres increased by 2.0%. The long-haul passenger load factor was 80.0%, down 6.7 percentage points compared with 2005.


They are losing passengers on longhaul and it isn't to FR. While they still have an acceptable load factor, they are seeing the effects of AA, DL and CO poaching the Irish routes. This is bad.

They have also lost a slight amount of load factor in the shorthaul routes, which is also not due to FR - yet.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
jwmd123
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:44 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 54):
They are losing passengers on longhaul and it isn't to FR. While they still have an acceptable load factor, they are seeing the effects of AA, DL and CO poaching the Irish routes. This is bad.

I think we can put this down to the security issues at the time. We can only truly see evidence of CO AA DL doing damage if we can see their passenger stats.
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:45 am

If anyone is interested and have the channel ITV, there will be a program on next Friday (Nov10th) called,
"Life of Ryan: Tonight investigates the low-cost airline Ryanair as it attempts a takeover of Irish rival Aer Lingus. Fiona Foster takes an in-depth look at the company that revolutionised air travel, including the management style of it's controversial boss Michael O'Leary, which upset passengers and regulators alike."
Should be interesting but I have a feeling it will have a slight anti-FR feel to it!
 
kaitak
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:48 am

Interesting; I wonder where Airwise picked up the 72% from - I guess that's the September load?

Not good, whatever way you look at it. I do fear that DM and EI are taking their eye off long haul a bit. A good while ago now, DM came up with great promises about building up the long haul product with PTVs, a new Business Class etc. I guess we'll see more details about this, but it's not just us who want to see this. The investment community has long made it clear that it will be looking closely at EI's plans on long haul and they won't be impressed if EI seems to be pulling back.

At the end of the day, there's no sentiment among the investment community. They may like EI, but they're responsible to investors - whether individuals, pensions, trustees etc, who won't thank them for investing in a turkey. EI is now the new kid on the block, whereas FR has a proven record. If EI can't provide a convincing rebuttal of FR's offer document, things will become a whole lot more uncomfortable for the current management.
 
pilot21
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:00 am

I think next summers timetable is a step in the right direction for EI as regards flights out of DUB. Every city they serve on long haul goes back to having a nonstop routing out of Dublin. From a personal travel point of view, I hated that SNN stopover (particularly when you landed there at 5am to wait an hour for no bloody reason).
I know people who use to look at alternative routing's and prices once they saw the EI flight stopped in SNN, (hell if you stopped in SNN, how different is it to an LHR stop over if the price is $200 cheaper?) and thus having nonstops to JFK/BOS/ORD/LAX and DXB (now possible because of the new planes) is a very positive step.

Now we just need DFW/HKG/BKK and maybe CPT to be announced!

Just a thought
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
 
Toulouse
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:02 am

Quoting JWMD123 (Reply 55):
I think we can put this down to the security issues at the time.

Slightly off topic, but have you heard about the new EU security measures effective from NOV 6th on travel throughout the EU, basically banning (most) liquids in carry-on baggage, only small liquids in containers on no more than 100ml and which must be placed in a re-sealable transparent bag (such as the ones used for frozen foods/sandwiches, etc . Liquids can be purchased once beyond security. Also appears laptops must be removed for separate scanning as is common place at DUB.

I got this info in a pdf file my wife sent me from Airbus so I can't figure out how to post it here. Will this lead to more havoc at security at DUB as things did seem to have improved recently.
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
Poitin
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:10 am

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 56):
If anyone is interested and have the channel ITV, there will be a program on next Friday (Nov10th) called,
"Life of Ryan: Tonight investigates the low-cost airline Ryanair as it attempts a takeover of Irish rival Aer Lingus. Fiona Foster takes an in-depth look at the company that revolutionised air travel, including the management style of it's controversial boss Michael O'Leary, which upset passengers and regulators alike."
Should be interesting but I have a feeling it will have a slight anti-FR feel to it!

Oh, you have no idea how jealous I am, being stuck here in America, without a decent pint and to think I'll be missing this! Oh, begorra!  weeping 

I don't get ITV at all. IT should be an interesting show.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
pilot21
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 59):
I got this info in a pdf file my wife sent me from Airbus so I can't figure out how to post it here. Will this lead to more havoc at security at DUB as things did seem to have improved recently.

Hopefully it will pass off without too much hassle, and starting it in Nov means they have a month before the Christmas rush to get use to it. I have the joy of a STN trip on Friday. From what I keep reading on FR's website, BAA have turned the security lines in that place into a complete sh*tshow. Maybe because it is a bunch of LCC carriers serving it rather then the Flag carriers of Europe?

I will also get to experience the joys of FR again after an almost 10yr absence...ahh I can't wait...
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
 
philb
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:18 am

But only if it is properly researched, is full of facts and is impartial. I have my doubts given the recent standard of UK TV journalism on many topics.
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 49):
Aer Lingus has announced some new routes, and increases in existing frequencies.

Is it me or are them fighting words? EI seemed to have launched an awful lot of new routes for only 2 320s? I know I haven't looked properly at the schedule adjustments now but I guess we'll see.

I also am wondering is the L/H may be down a bit due to all the tech difficulties they may be having.
John Hancock
 
Poitin
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting JWMD123 (Reply 55):
I think we can put this down to the security issues at the time. We can only truly see evidence of CO AA DL doing damage if we can see their passenger stats.

Sorry, these were NINE MONTH numbers. Not just September.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 57):
Interesting; I wonder where Airwise picked up the 72% from - I guess that's the September load?

Yes, it is in the ISE posting above. Those were impacted by the liquid bomb scare. They are even worse.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
Poitin
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:43 am

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 63):
Is it me or are them fighting words? EI seemed to have launched an awful lot of new routes for only 2 320s? I know I haven't looked properly at the schedule adjustments now but I guess we'll see.

I also am wondering is the L/H may be down a bit due to all the tech difficulties they may be having.

IE DAA has had her impact on revenues, I am sure. And the broken nose gear on which ever one last week didn't help. Those aircraft are old and need replacement. The A330 is a good airplane but is not indestructible. I believe the average age is 9 years. And given the way they are used, probably ready for the desert.

[Edited 2006-10-31 21:44:48]
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
pilot21
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 65):
IE DAA has had her impact on revenues, I am sure. And the broken nose gear on which ever one last week didn't help. Those aircraft are old and need replacement. The A330 is a good airplane but is not indestructible. I believe the average age is 9 years. And given the way they are used, probably ready for the desert.

Yeah, the A333's average age is 12yrs and the A332's are 6.5rs. They aren't ready just yet for the desert, but they do need a bit of TLC As Bx737 even pointed out a few threads ago, EI really do drive the assets hard, and with no back-up, it has proved costly this summer. (In revenue and bad customer feelings I would guess)


Also just to update you on the current A330 fleet, so you know which aircraft we are talking about
A330-300's are
EI-JFK - This one went tech in ORD and Malaga this summer
EI-DUB
EI-CRK
EI-ORD

A330-200's are:
EI-LAX
EI-EWR
EI-DAA - This one is the only one with PTV's in economy
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
 
Poitin
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 63):
Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 49):
Aer Lingus has announced some new routes, and increases in existing frequencies.

Is it me or are them fighting words? EI seemed to have launched an awful lot of new routes for only 2 320s? I know I haven't looked properly at the schedule adjustments now but I guess we'll see.

There was also an ISE posting about the new routes and such

http://www.ise.ie/app/announcementDetails.asp?ID=1328159

which includes the summary:
    With these additional services, Aer Lingus will operate an additional 86 flights per week offering a total of 15,000 extra seats to and from centrally located airports.


My question is what will that do to the short haul load factors? They are on the edge right now and if decreased, they will be losing money per flight.

Is DM pushing EI too far? Hopefully, they will be able to fill those 15,000 seats per week. On the other hand, there is the option of reducing costs, which we know SIPTU is frowning upon.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
Poitin
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:11 am

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 66):
Also just to update you on the current A330 fleet, so you know which aircraft we are talking about
A330-300's are
EI-JFK - This one went tech in ORD and Malaga this summer

Thanks for the correction. I was under the impression it was poor EI-DAA.

I am sure all of them need improved IFE (even EI-DAA) which they should get. As for EI-JFK, maybe it is ready for a little sunshine.

I appreciate the update Pilot21. I am not as familiar with the actual birds are many of you are.

What EI needs is about five or six more 330 and now. That is with at least ONE SPARE ready bird for times like last week. Maybe one of the older planes put onto a light duty cycle.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
philb
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:11 am

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 66):
I believe the average age is 9 years. And given the way they are used, probably ready for the desert.

C'mon, you know better than that. The cabins need revamping but the number of cycles on the airframes are what counts. The repeated DUB - SNN and vv sectors will up the cycles compared to contemporary aircraft, but not by a significant amount.
 
Poitin
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:11 am

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 66):
Also just to update you on the current A330 fleet, so you know which aircraft we are talking about
A330-300's are
EI-JFK - This one went tech in ORD and Malaga this summer

Thanks for the correction. I was under the impression it was poor EI-DAA.

I am sure all of them need improved IFE (even EI-DAA) which they should get. As for EI-JFK, maybe it is ready for a little sunshine.

I appreciate the update Pilot21. I am not as familiar with the actual birds are many of you are.

What EI needs is about five or six more 330 and now. That is with at least ONE SPARE ready bird for times like last week. Maybe one of the older planes put onto a light duty cycle.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
kaitak
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:23 am

Interesting story on Breakingnews.ie ...

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/10/31/story283300.html

That 737 which crashed on Sunday near Abuja, Nigeria, had its last C check at Shannon in 2005 (at the Aero Engineering - or "Air Atlanta" hangar). It was a former US Air machine, No. 988. Interestingly, the JP shows it was leased from what appears to be an Irish company, Celtic Capital 22891 Corp.

The hours claimed since the last check appear to be just a little out ... over 54,000. Hmm ... don't think so!

As for dear old Aer Lingus, don't forget that the intense flying without a relief aircraft puts a lot of pressure on any fleet. The Aer Lingus A330 fleet, even the oldest ones, are not particularly old, BUT they are relatively high cycle fleet and it wouldn't surprise me if the likes of EI-CRK, ORD, JFK and DUB are the fleet leaders for A330s worldwide, in terms of cycles, if not hours. Remember that a route like SNN-DUB-ORD not only includes one of the world's longest A330 sectors, but also the shortest as well and that knocks the hours per cycle down considerably.

My personal view is that EI will stick with the 330 until the 787 becomes available; the A350 seems like it's being pushed out further and further; EI needed its new fleet from 2012 and as it is, the 787-9 can just about satisfy that, but even there, EI would be best advised not to hang about. With the likes of BA and one or two major Asian carriers getting close to 787 orders, not to mention the possibility that existing -8 customers could convert their orders to -9s, EI could risk being pushed way down the list.
 
philb
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:27 am

I posted that the 737 was at Shannon for work by Air Atlanta on the crash thread. Wasn't clear what the work was though.
 
David_itl
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:45 am

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 49):
New routes will see the airline fly from Cork to Manchester from March 2007

Some of us are old enough to remember a 2 weekly Sh360 service which was upgraded to Fk50s when they first operated on the ORK-MAN sector in the 1980s/1990s!
 
philb
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:03 am

Even before that they used to operate an evening 737 flight that routed Dublin - Manchester - Dublin - Shannon - Cork ending up in Cork to night stop.

Before that, in the 1960s, there was an F27 service between Cork and Manchester for at least one summer
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:07 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 67):
My question is what will that do to the short haul load factors? They are on the edge right now and if decreased, they will be losing money per flight.

Ok the above is really starting to frustrate me, simply because I don't know.. and I'm a lot closer to EI then you are and I don't really get where you get your figures. I also know unlike FR EI have a lot of places they need (and can) cut costs all FR has now is they can try and squeeze more money out of gambling or allowing mobile phone (cell phone) usage EI are not on the edge and they won't be until long after they manage to loose another third of their workforce.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 67):
Is DM pushing EI too far? Hopefully, they will be able to fill those 15,000 seats per week. On the other hand, there is the option of reducing costs, which we know SIPTU is frowning upon.

well with DUB expecting to handle over an extra 3 million passengers this year (or 57,962 passengers a week) I can see EI picking up just a fraction of that assuming the growth continues.... if it doesn't then both EI and FR and indeed anyone that serves DUB is in trouble.
John Hancock
 
Toulouse
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:50 pm

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 75):
EI are not on the edge and they won't be until long after they manage to loose another third of their workforce.

Smokeyrosco I agree with your above post. I am amazed by the suddenly and recent negativity towards EI coming from certain a.net posters, who only 4 months ago were claiming how bright the future was for EI once it was privatised, now it seems they think the only future for EI is FR. (especially Kaitak, and that I say with all the respect in the world towards your opinions Kaitak, as you are a highly considered poster around here).
Moreover, we are constantly hearing here in Europe that Aer Lingus is one of Europe's most profitable airlines, something nobody would have expected to ever hear some ten years ago.
Poitin, regarding load factors and their new routes, I believe (now this is just my humble opinion) that in aviation it is quite easy to create markets and it's not always necessary to "only" respond to airport where there is a clear market demand. I've seen it here in Toulouse myself, I never expected EI to operate DUB-TLS, they suddenly come on the market, a few billboards appear around the city advertising new direct flights with EI to Dublin, announced on the local news (as would have happened bag in DUB) and hey Bingo, lots of people saying lets give Dublin or Toulouse a try for our next vacations.
And whether Aer Lingus is on the "edge now or not", I believe they were on the edge and were falling off the edge 6 years ago. What did they do, some job cuts, changes to cabin service, new modern Airbus fleet and MAINLY, epand their European route network unlike they had ever done before, and this is what made the airline grow.

Now I know all the above has nothing to do with the EI/FR issue, but I for one am not so sure the MO'L getting his hands on Aer Lingus is the wonderful and only way forwars for EI idea as some a.net posters suddenly seem to think...
Time will tell... Pass the popcorn!
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
abc9
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:17 pm

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 76):
Smokeyrosco I agree with your above post. I am amazed by the suddenly and recent negativity towards EI coming from certain a.net posters, who only 4 months ago were claiming how bright the future was for EI once it was privatised, now it seems they think the only future for EI is FR.

Agree with you both and refreshing to see a positive posting.

Anyhow, according to a report on RTE's website this morning, lifted from today's Financial Times, there appears to be another stumbling block for FR and MOL. It seems any takeover of EI by FR would be deemed too small to warrant an EU competition probe. The criteria are that any takeover must have a combined turnover worldwide of € 2.5 bn. In addition there must be a combined t/o of € 100 m in at least 3 member states and each party must have a t/o of € 25 m in the same 3 states.

If this event were to come to pass, it could instead be dealt with by the Irish Competition Authority, and I think we all know which way they would lean.

Full report as follows:

www.rte.ie/business/2006/1101/aerlingus.html
 
kaitak
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:29 pm

First of all, let me apologise for anything I've said about EI which may have come across as negative. Let me say right now, that anything and everything I've ever said about EI on this or any other forum has been intended constructively and positively. EI will always be my No1 airline, not FR, not CX, SQ, BA or anyone else. So everything I write about EI and every opinion I express about it should be read against that background.

Saying that, however, I do feel the need to express frustration at some times. I want EI to be a success. I want it to grow. The fact that I express the view that FR would be a good partner for EI does not mean I want to see EI disappear as a name; I would hate to ever see that happen. It simply means that in order to take advantage of the HUGE potential that exists on t/a routes and to defend itself from the US carriers which are likely to increase their presence in Ireland considerably, I think it needs a partner. I also think it needs to have a bigger vision and see a bigger picture, beyond just "stopping FR".

So, please, don't see anything I say about EI as being dismissive or caustic, even if it sometimes reflects criticism. I wouldn't have spent 16 years lobbying for the end of the stopover, for better facilities at DUB, etc etc, if I didn't think EI wasn't worth the effort. It is, but I do sometimes get frustrated when I think that it's vision isn't all that it might be.
 
EIBoston
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:11 pm

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 78):
I also think it needs to have a bigger vision and see a bigger picture, beyond just "stopping FR".

Have to agree with Kaitak here. Since MOL made his intentions known it seems the government, pilots, unions etc have been focusing on stopping FR at all costs. If MOL had not made the offer would these groups be putting as much effort into the real issues that EI face? So even if MOL does not succeed, then DM is going to have to deal with the Unions. Some real hard decisions are going to have to be made. Of course the draconian union leaders will make it impossible. (as they always do)
 
Toulouse
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:46 pm

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 78):
First of all, let me apologise for anything I've said about EI which may have come across as negative

Kaitak... no need to apologise!! You have no need to. And I hope you didn't take my post as criticism of your posts, which as I stated, I hold in very high esteem.
I also agree that there is a bigger picture to look at than the patriotic one myself and other may have or appear to have. Nevertheless, I simply disagree that FR is the sole future for EI, I am against MO'L getting his hands on the airline as I simly don't trust him (this doesn't eman I recoginse he's got a good business mind), but I really think the last think Irish aviation needs is to be dominated by Michael O'Leary.
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
Poitin
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 69):
C'mon, you know better than that. The cabins need revamping but the number of cycles on the airframes are what counts. The repeated DUB - SNN and vv sectors will up the cycles compared to contemporary aircraft, but not by a significant amount.



3 instead of 2 cycles per round trip is significant in my book. It would be interesting to know what the cycles are on those aircraft. Does anyone know?

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 80):
I also agree that there is a bigger picture to look at than the patriotic one myself and other may have or appear to have. Nevertheless, I simply disagree that FR is the sole future for EI, I am against MO'L getting his hands on the airline as I simly don't trust him (this doesn't eman I recoginse he's got a good business mind), but I really think the last think Irish aviation needs is to be dominated by Michael O'Leary.

Wolves eat sheep and as my neighbor knows from finding a half-eaten deer on his driveway, moutain lions eat deer. Life does have its sad and even ugly side and to pretend it isn't so doesn't make it so.

I see two futures for EI: One is DM manages to reduce costs to make EI healthy. This is unlikely, given SIPTU.

The other is the wolf gets the sheep. I do not see any white knight's out there willing to charge in and prepared to save EI. It would be nice, but I don't see it. And the wolf isn't necessarily FR and MOL.

Perhaps there is a third scenario that I have missed. I really wished there is one because like everyone else, I would like to see EI remain free of MOL. Perhaps you can suggest one?

Quoting ABC9 (Reply 77):
Anyhow, according to a report on RTE's website this morning, lifted from today's Financial Times, there appears to be another stumbling block for FR and MOL. It seems any takeover of EI by FR would be deemed too small to warrant an EU competition probe. The criteria are that any takeover must have a combined turnover worldwide of € 2.5 bn. In addition there must be a combined t/o of € 100 m in at least 3 member states and each party must have a t/o of € 25 m in the same 3 states.

If this event were to come to pass, it could instead be dealt with by the Irish Competition Authority, and I think we all know which way they would lean.

There are two edges on this sword. It could cut either way, or both ways.

However the point EVERYONE seems to be missing is the threat to EI is not FR. It is CO, UA, AA, DL, and probably NW. And there are all those LCCs in Europe. EI needs to compete with all of those airlines, and if can't it will fail, even if FR leaves it alone, an unlikely scenario.

The recent 9 month load factors listed in reply 54 suggests that the erosion has already started.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
Toulouse
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:13 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 81):
Life does have its sad and even ugly side and to pretend it isn't so doesn't make it so.

Sadly, very true words Poitin.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 81):
I see two futures for EI: One is DM manages to reduce costs to make EI healthy.

I believe DM, given the chance, might just be able to do this, espcially now as there will be less government involvement, but...

Quoting Poitin (Reply 81):
This is unlikely, given SIPTU

Yes, we still have the unions to deal with.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 81):
Perhaps there is a third scenario that I have missed. I really wished there is one because like everyone else, I would like to see EI remain free of MOL. Perhaps you can suggest one?

You know Poitin, I have been thinking about this a lot recently, and the saddest thing is as of yet I can't really come with a sound thrid scenario, except one in which EI just continues to struggle along and grow as a small airline has it has done for the past 75 years... nothing too promising our innovative about that. Will keep the thinking hat on and if I come up with that third scenario, firstly I'll phone DM then let you know!

Seriously though, I have been very busy recently though and things should calm down next week, and then instead of just poppin in now and then here on a.net I'll try and actually put some of my thoughts down in a more coherent fashion and see what you all think.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 81):
However the point EVERYONE seems to be missing is the threat to EI is not FR. It is CO, UA, AA, DL, and probably NW.

I agree, but is that a new threat? And from what I read around, European carriers seem to be much preferred for crossing the pond than US carriers, even EI seems to usually get a better response, and that without having upgraded its inflight service yet.
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
Danny
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:27 am

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 82):
Quoting Poitin (Reply 81):
This is unlikely, given SIPTU

Yes, we still have the unions to deal with.

Not sure why the assumption that DM will not be able to do anything because of SIPTU but when MOL comes on board then SIPTU is irrelevant?
 
pilot21
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:32 am

Bx737, is there any internal newsletter within EI that has given you a hint of what is in the future for EI expansion :fleet/route wise?
From reading other posts on A.net, some airlines actively communicate with their employees regarding changes for the yr ahead etc. but EI doesn't seem to be too proactive on that front.

What has disappointed me so far is the lack of new news out of EI HQ since it floated. I know the FR take-over has diverted a lot of Mgt attention, but as I said before, the best form of defence is attack. From postings on this board, and on pprune, we were expecting an avalanche of News Headlines from DM and the crew, instead it has been a very poor trickle.

They have the money from selling the shares, and from all the media reports before the float, it was all earmarked for long-haul expansion, so where is the expansion and the new planes? If DM was hoping for Open Skies, and is now adopting a wait and see approach, I'd be very disappointed. They could at least announce the long-haul product update. (even a timetable for it!)

It has been a month since the float, lets see a bit of white smoke DM, not a white flag!

Rant over  

(Good to see u back on the thread Toulouse!)

[Edited 2006-11-01 16:33:37]
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
 
Poitin
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 82):
I agree, but is that a new threat? And from what I read around, European carriers seem to be much preferred for crossing the pond than US carriers, even EI seems to usually get a better response, and that without having upgraded its inflight service yet.

Yes, it is new threat -- if you look at the number of 757's showing up in DUB from these airlines, although DL has been doing it for years.

EI really needs to upgrade its service. The other day I accused poor old EI-DAA of being a hangar queen, while it was really EI-JFK. Curious as to where I got that idea, I found the comment that people are actually checking EI flights to see if EI-DAA is going to do it. A misinterpetation on my part. They were looking for the Coach PTV! Does that tell you something?

Quoting Danny (Reply 83):
Not sure why the assumption that DM will not be able to do anything because of SIPTU but when MOL comes on board then SIPTU is irrelevant?

Because MOL will not be dependent on a Board appointed by the Minister of Transportation. Too many politics involved which MOL will not have to worry about.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
Toulouse
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:19 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 85):
if you look at the number of 757's showing up in DUB from these airlines

That is true, and not just from US carriers, just look at the huge influx of European carriers into DUB compared to just 10 years ago for example.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 85):
EI really needs to upgrade its service

I fully agree with you, and we have all been hoping this would happen with privatisation and DM himself has been promising it, but let's give him a chance.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 85):
Does that tell you something?

Looking at other threads on a.net, similar forums and travel boards, in which people ask for advice on whether to take a European or US carrier across the pond, most people seem to favour European carriers, even our US friends. And from what I've heard, the service provided by most US carriers into DUB is no better, if not worse than what EI is currently offering.
On other sites where people can grade service provided on l/h flights, EI seems to get quite positive ratings. And there is definitely a new market of European travellers using EI to get to the US via DUB. I have seen many such passengers on my frequent EI flights from mainly TLS and MAD to DUB. Granted most of these people are probably attracted by the excllent fares EI are offering.
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
Danny
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:21 am

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 86):
And from what I've heard, the service provided by most US carriers into DUB is no better, if not worse than what EI is currently offering.

My thoughts exactly. Not that EI offers anything good, but US or NW 757 is hardly a better alternative.
 
philb
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 81):
3 instead of 2 cycles per round trip is significant in my book. It would be interesting to know what the cycles are on those aircraft. Does anyone know?

Most round trips have been 4 cycles until quite recent years.

EI-DUB, the first delivered A330, arrived with Aer Lingus on 29 April 1994.

Let's assume a base of 365 days x 4 cycles (DUB-SNN-JFK and vv) x 12.5 (years) =18,250 cycles IF the aircraft had worked that sort of schedule every single day from day 1, which it hasn't.

Seems to me its at about half life.
 
aerarann
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:14 am

RE: EI ORK - LHR INCREASED FREQUENCY

As EI recently announced an increase in frequency on the ORK - LHR route, does this mean that EI are reducing services on either SNN - LHR or DUB - LHR as surely, we would have heard if they had acquired any new slots at LHR

Thanks
 
Poitin
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 87):
Quoting Toulouse (Reply 86):
And from what I've heard, the service provided by most US carriers into DUB is no better, if not worse than what EI is currently offering.

My thoughts exactly. Not that EI offers anything good, but US or NW 757 is hardly a better alternative

While I can't recommend a 757 TA flight, there is nothing wrong with a 767 or 330. Unless you are flying EI-DAA, EI is really not alot of fun in couch, while I usually have a pleasant enough ride in CO or DL.

However, the big issue is price. Even from LAX to DUB return, EI is quite a bit more money than DL, AA, CO, LH or AF. Take a look at expedia.com to see just how bad.

I am looking at it now, and
DL (LAX-ATL-DUB) is $529
AA is $570 going several routes.
CO is $584 going several routes
LH is $660 by way of FRA
AF is $778 by CDG
EI is $958 direct

For almost half the price, I will go DL. And in fact, I usually fly from SMF, which I can't on EI.

Now, a word of warning -- Never buy from expedia.com. You can usually go to the airlines website and do better.

Flyaerlingus.com is offering fares from LAX SNN or DUB for $242 plustaxes & fees of up to $45 eastbound and $80 westbound and $2.50 September 11th Security Fee for each enplanement at a U.S. airport.

Using their website, I "booked" a flight, not on the day of my choice but one later for $678 with a fuel surcharge of $106. So the expedia.com booking is not a smart thing to do. Still the difference was $150.

As EIBoston said in the last thread (#17, reply 65)



    Just back after a quick trip to Italy and Ireland. Flew with AA and it reminded me that AA stop their direct BOS-SNN service this weekend. I sure am going to miss that. As well as being on average $150 cheaper than EI for a return trip, I also was able to get the domestic business class seats on the 757 with my AA Gold status for no extra cost. I really hope they bring it back. Unlikey though as they are giving back their ex TWA 757's soon.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
kaitak
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:33 am

I certainly don't fancy t/a on a 757, although CO, in my experience is a very good airline; I flew with them from LGW-EWR and from IAH to LGW (on my way back from Florida - go figure  Wink) and although they weren't Cathay, they were certainly good to fly with. 757s to me are aircraft for flights of up to 4h - really not much different from 737s, since they are (from a pax viewpoint) pretty much the same airplane.

I guess the point I'd make about EI is that they are capable of being a very good airline; if - as I hope, and indeed investors and investment managers hope - they make a go of long haul, then they need to spruce up their product and modernise. Remember, that doesn't preclude long haul low cost - as long as there is a "joie de vivre" and verve about it. The whole long haul product has to be dusted down and I worry that when DM talks about cost cuts, it will involve deferring the investment EI needs.

Although I know Jetstar is using A330s (and anyone who wants to see an absolutely gorgeous aircraft should see the J* A330s - wow!!) on long haul low cost, I don't see the 330 being the ideal aircraft for this. Sure, they can work with it until the 787 or A350 comes along, but I think that there needs to be a differentiation in seat pitch and "seats abreast". All seats would have IFE, but the low cost Economy would have "pay per view" and only a basic number of channels (such as air show) free.

Although I said that I am very loyal to EI (I certainly am) and follow its developments very closely, I still have high expectations of it and there are things I would accept from other airlines that I wouldn't accept from EI; it is, at its best, a very good airline, but it needs to show vision and I feel that it's in this respect that it often falls down. It needs to be at the cutting edge, an innovator. Any airline that wants to be around in 10 years' time - particularly small airlines - needs to be. I know I've said this before, but toddling along at half throttle with a short term vision just isn't on. Either you're in this game or your not and if you're happy to leave something for the competition, they will take every inch you give them and use that space to squeeze you out; you just don't give space to the likes of DL, AA, CO, etc. If there is potential, you need to grab it with both hands and make it work. As a friend of mine told me once, if you're in a field wanting to milk a cow, you've got to go to the cow - it won't come to you. The circumstances are there; EI has to make them work for it and if that means working with FR - no matter how much it may dislike it, that's what it has to do.

Quoting Philb (Reply 88):
EI-DUB, the first delivered A330, arrived with Aer Lingus on 29 April 1994.

. You know, I remember that! I went out to DUB that evening to watch it come in; it landed on 16. What a beauty!

I saw a figure of around 2.75h per cycle (much lower than it should be due to our beloved stopover). Now, if you assume a utilsation of about 13h a day, or 4,680/yr - c.56k hours in its life. That works out at around 20,000 cycles, not a million miles away from PhilB's calculation. The key point here is that if the 330s were operating from any other European airport, they'd be flying around the same utilisation, BUT with cycles of about 7-8h each, so ending up with half as many over its life.

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 84):
Bx737, is there any internal newsletter within EI that has given you a hint of what is in the future for EI expansion :fleet/route wise?
From reading other posts on A.net, some airlines actively communicate with their employees regarding changes for the yr ahead etc. but EI doesn't seem to be too proactive on that front.

There is a magazine called AerSceala, which is published monthly, but information like the type you're seeking wouldn't be in this, as they wouldn't publish info in house which could leak to outsiders - particularly FR.
 
Poitin
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 88):
Quoting Poitin (Reply 81):
3 instead of 2 cycles per round trip is significant in my book. It would be interesting to know what the cycles are on those aircraft. Does anyone know?

Most round trips have been 4 cycles until quite recent years.

That is even worse then for DL flys 128/129 as ATL SNN DUB ATL. What they really want to do is ATL-DUB-ATL

Quoting Philb (Reply 88):
Let's assume a base of 365 days x 4 cycles (DUB-SNN-JFK and vv) x 12.5 (years) =18,250 cycles IF the aircraft had worked that sort of schedule every single day from day 1, which it hasn't.

The big issue here is all the A330s do other things, so while you can guessimate as you did, we still don't know really. I would say 18,000 cycles is mid-life to less.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
Poitin
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 91):
I guess the point I'd make about EI is that they are capable of being a very good airline; if - as I hope, and indeed investors and investment managers hope - they make a go of long haul, then they need to spruce up their product and modernise. Remember, that doesn't preclude long haul low cost - as long as there is a "joie de vivre" and verve about it. The whole long haul product has to be dusted down and I worry that when DM talks about cost cuts, it will involve deferring the investment EI needs.

Agreed on all points.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 91):
Although I know Jetstar is using A330s (and anyone who wants to see an absolutely gorgeous aircraft should see the J* A330s - wow!!) on long haul low cost, I don't see the 330 being the ideal aircraft for this. Sure, they can work with it until the 787 or A350 comes along, but I think that there needs to be a differentiation in seat pitch and "seats abreast". All seats would have IFE, but the low cost Economy would have "pay per view" and only a basic number of channels (such as air show) free.

EI has the A330, and so it is the ideal interim aircraft, but it needs replacement in 5 years or less. The 787 is the only viable candidate. The 330E, might do instead, but there is no such plane yet.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 91):
uoting Pilot21 (Reply 84):
Bx737, is there any internal newsletter within EI that has given you a hint of what is in the future for EI expansion :fleet/route wise?
From reading other posts on A.net, some airlines actively communicate with their employees regarding changes for the yr ahead etc. but EI doesn't seem to be too proactive on that front.

I am surprised nobody notice the cover on the 2006 Annual report.  Big grin
LOAD PDF
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EIBoston
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting Aerarann (Reply 89):
RE: EI ORK - LHR INCREASED FREQUENCY

As EI recently announced an increase in frequency on the ORK - LHR route, does this mean that EI are reducing services on either SNN - LHR or DUB - LHR as surely, we would have heard if they had acquired any new slots at LHR

Thanks

I looked at their timetables for next summer and yes they have added EI713/714 to the LHR-ORK route. But I don't beleive that is really new. I believe that they had this previously as I often used to take the 14:40 flight out of ORK to connect to AA155 to BOS at 18:00. (now I have to use the 12.10 out of Cork and have a 4.5 hour wait if I fly via LHR) So if they had in the past then there should be no issue with slots. I think it is a seasonal thing.

So including in the press release was sort of misleading.
 
kaitak
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:06 am

Well, Mr. O'Leary has taken the view we all expected him to take of the UK govt's plans on air transport ... "the usual horses**t"!! Ah, bless him, the poor, shy, soft spoken lad.

I think it is something that needs to be taken seriously, because if the UK starts putting serious taxes on air travel, it's going to affect us quite seriously. We need to look at what can be done and perhaps to use the UK move to spur the govt into doing something proactive. With an election barely six months away, we need to look at what the various parties are proposing on air transport issues. I hope the opposition parties point out the paucity of interest in air transport issues on the govt's part. Their record over the past 10 years has been pretty poor - never (or very rarely pro-active); we need more!

I fully expect EI to stay with the 330s for the next 5-6 years, until the 787 is available. The 350 is still too wishy-washy and vague and frankly, I'm wondering if TAM's decision to order 777-300ERs will start the ball rolling on cancellations; Finnair has indicated that the door is still open to the 787. It would be sad for Airbus, but at the end of the day, if they don't have the product airlines need, tough.

As for EI, the big problem is still - and so frustratingly, as we're nearly in 2007 (but why should this year be any different) - that we don't know what the regulatory landscape will be like; this year, much like last year, we've swapped the dead hand of Kildare Street for the dead hand of Brussels. Not much of an improvement, but at least their no is translated into 20 languages. Seriously, though, we need to have a Plan B and we need to see the govt push our case at EU level if (as I expect) Open Skies doesn't go ahead as planned. The big concern for EI is the difficulty in planning. If - as I expect - Air Madrid goes wallop in the next few months, it has two GE powered A330-200s which would suit EI perfectly (subject to maintenance checks/refitting), but can EI take the risk of taking them on, when it doesn't know what next Summer looks like. Similarly for 2008, with EK having cancelled A330s, EI has apparently already been offered three 330s (I'd just love to hear Bertie say that ...) and could get more if needed, BUT it doesn't yet know if they will be needed.

(Incidentally, what happened to that new feature on the forum where it told you "(x) unread - jump to last" - that was useful!)
 
philb
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 92):
The big issue here is all the A330s do other things, so while you can guessimate as you did, we still don't know really. I would say 18,000 cycles is mid-life to less.

Whilst they've done charters and some European trips, the bulk of their life has been spent on the Atlantic and they haven't worked 365 days a year for the last 12.5 years.

I was on both JFK and DUB last year. JFK had just been outshopped after a D check and total respray. That would put it at around 15,000 hours at that time???

A330 cycles expectancy on launch was around 31,000. Like most airframes this has been increased.
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:12 am

Just a thought....

DL used to bring in a 777 into DUB ( I know because I flew on it in and out of DUB) from ATL now they bring in a 763... CO used to fly a 764 to DUB during the Summer now it's two 752's of which one makes a stop at SNN... US still has the same 762 coming into DUB (was it always a 752 that went into SNN?) if you exclude AA and remember that DL used to fly from JFK many moons ago Im not really inclined to think there is a huge rise in T/A traffic

Wasn't it someone in DL that said you can never have enough traffic into Ireland during the summer.

I also read something today which showed that the US is Ireland's biggest importer by nearly 3 times to it's closest rival (Those big 330 bellies carry a lot of cargo)

Also DUB's 4th most popular destination is New York... is it any wonder DL threw a 764 onto that route.

And I wouldn't be surprised to read 21 million passengers passing through DUB this year which is in or around 15% growth

Add that altogether and I'm not sure there will be blood over the Atlantic just yet.

And no I have not forgot about NW but they are only bringing in another 752 6 days a week (or so I believe)
John Hancock
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 95):
I think it is something that needs to be taken seriously, because if the UK starts putting serious taxes on air travel, it's going to affect us quite seriously. We need to look at what can be done and perhaps to use the UK move to spur the govt into doing something proactive

OHH OHH OHH I know, lets turn DUB into LHR MK II, if they tax fuel etc.. EI should really start promoting getting your connecting flight to most of Europe from DUB rather then LHR as it would be a lot cheaper and probably a more enjoyable trip.... even if you do have to stop in DUB for a couple of hours.
John Hancock
 
pilot21
Topic Author
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RE: Gear Up, It's Irish Aviation Thread 18

Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 95):
If - as I expect - Air Madrid goes wallop in the next few months, it has two GE powered A330-200s which would suit EI perfectly (subject to maintenance checks/refitting),

Not too sure on the quality of these 2 birds. Both saw service with Canada 3000 until that airline went belly up in 2001, after which they sat in Canada and then TLS for about 1.5yrs before being shipped onto Volaire. They were there only a short time before passing onto Air Madrid. Now all these airlines maybe good, but I suspect a reason why Air Madrid maybe about to go belly up is because their planes keep breaking down, and when you have a pedigree like these 2 aircraft, I'm not so sure they are top shelf material.
(Given that EI was rumoured to have axed the 2 Air Transat A332's because of the poor quality on them, and they were delivered straight from the factory, the background on these 2 birds doesn't promote confidence.)
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR

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