Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Boeing Nut
Topic Author
Posts: 5078
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:42 am

Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:47 am

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/7478brochure.pdf

Stairwell appears to be back in it's original position although it retains the curve.

Hope this is not a double post, I didn't see it elsewhere.

Regards
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
atlflyer
Posts: 763
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:13 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:05 am

Thanks for the update!
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:08 am

Neat stuff, thanks.

Since I did not see the original, what changes are there??
One Nation Under God
 
ksupilot
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:27 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:26 am

Could this update be evidence that Boeing has some orders in the bag, or atleast close to clinching some.
 
Boeing Nut
Topic Author
Posts: 5078
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:42 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:32 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 2):
Since I did not see the original, what changes are there??

Matching the 748i to the same length as the 748F boosting capacity from 450 to 467 passengers. There is speculation that utilizing the "attic" for galley storage, this number could be flirting with the 500 passenger mark. This number won't be seen in reality as this configuration is the standard Boeing three class, which is rarely if ever used in the real world.

Still a good improvement none the less.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
N31029
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:23 pm

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:45 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Thread starter):
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/7478brochure.pdf

Hi Boeing Nut.

Thank you for this informative and interesting piece.

May I ask two questions, please, that perhaps you or someone else might be able to address:

#1) Has the length of the upper deck been stretched from that of the 744?
#2) There was some discussion in another thread about, I believe it was EK, indicating a preference for the originally-proposed 748-I with its shorter fuselage and longer range. Any knowledge of this and a possible response from Boeing?

Thank you, in advance, for any information and assistance.

Blessings, N31029
John 3:16
 
ksupilot
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:27 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:49 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 4):
There is speculation that utilizing the "attic" for galley storage, this number could be flirting with the 500 passenger mark.

One good thing, if they want to sell the 748 as a VLA, they can go with the 500 number. If they want it to look a bit smaller they can go with the 467 number.
 
dw747400
Posts: 1100
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2001 8:24 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:36 am

Quoting N31029 (Reply 5):
#1) Has the length of the upper deck been stretched from that of the 744?

The upper deck is stretched as part of the forward fuselage plug.

Quoting N31029 (Reply 5):
#2) There was some discussion in another thread about, I believe it was EK, indicating a preference for the originally-proposed 748-I with its shorter fuselage and longer range. Any knowledge of this and a possible response from Boeing?

I've heard several theories--most relating to how the 748I would fit with the A380. A slightly smaller 748I would have slightly higher CASM, which could make EK's A380 fleet more competitive if other airlines operate the 748I. No one knows for sure which airliner (380 or 748) will have lower CASM, but a shorter 748I will certainly either reduce the edge or put the A380 further ahead.

Of course, they may simply be interested in an aircraft that can beat the A380 on range... again, no one has in service numbers for these aircraft, but some have speculated the A380 may have enough extra weight to limit its ability to carry a useful payload out to its design range.

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 6):

One good thing, if they want to sell the 748 as a VLA, they can go with the 500 number. If they want it to look a bit smaller they can go with the 467 number.

I'm not sure I follow you--any prospective airline will purchase based on how many seats they want to put in it. Boeing might be able to tout a 500 figure to the public, but no airline will care.
CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
 
jfk777
Posts: 7486
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:05 pm

Looking at Boeing brochure, the First and Business Class seem about 1990. No flat beds or lie flat seats in either cabin. No suites either, I would expect Boeing to be with teh times and at least install a Singapore or British type First Class and a Virgin style Business. Seating would then be less then the 467 they have.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27604
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:07 pm

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 8):
Looking at Boeing brochure, the First and Business Class seem about 1990. No flat beds or lie flat seats in either cabin. No suites either, I would expect Boeing to be with teh times and at least install a Singapore or British type First Class and a Virgin style Business. Seating would then be less then the 467 they have.

Maybe they're using an LH config.  Wink

Seriously, it's just for generalization purposes. Airbus does much the same. Plus, both have Business Class pitch of around 40" when the standard is probably closer to 60".
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14423
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:27 pm

Thnx for the link!

agree about the seat counts, it realy has become a circus taking the public for a ride on total aircraft seating capasity.

both A & B shoudl update the seating standards to e.g. :

- Business : 60 inch, no middle seats
- First : 80 inch, every seat at an aisle
- 0.7 square meters bar/relaxation per B/F passenger..

Combined with say 4% F class, 15% C class

I think widebodyphotog should really be able to gain credibility if he used those in his comparisons instead of selecting "typical" / "brochure" / "published" seat counts you can easily mis- use to steer towards favourable comparison results.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15147
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:18 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 10):
both A & B shoudl update the seating standards to e.g. :

- Business : 60 inch, no middle seats
- First : 80 inch, every seat at an aisle

Explain that to SQ, since they don't have those pitches on the 77W and are arguably the most luxurious airline in the sky.

As long as both A and B do 60/40/32 or something close, it means you can compare them reasonably well (although it would be nice if they both did the same percentages, too).

I know you don't agree, but a baseline is a baseline.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Kieron747
Posts: 2461
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:17 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:52 am

Am i being thick? the brochure says the stretch will be 18 ft 10 in longer, since when does that equal 15.7 metres?

Kieron747
Airliners.Net - The Jam Rag Of The Web.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27604
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:07 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 10):
I think widebodyphotog should really be able to gain credibility if he used those in his comparisons instead of selecting "typical" / "brochure" / "published" seat counts you can easily mis- use to steer towards favourable comparison results.

It would be nice to have a "common baseline" for seating, to be sure, but even then, each operator has different OEWs due to non-seating interior fittings and such, so I imagine he'll still be accused of "cooking the numbers" when the results don't track to expectations.  Sad
 
ba286
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:59 pm

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:25 am

Noise reduction of 30%, thats somewhat impressive. Especially since the 744 is already a rather quite aircraft.
BA286
E190 A318 A319 A320 A343 ATR42 717 732 733 734 735 737 738 744 752 772 DC-10 MD-11
 
7cubed
Posts: 121
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:02 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:56 am

Quoting N31029 (Reply 5):
#2) There was some discussion in another thread about, I believe it was EK, indicating a preference for the originally-proposed 748-I with its shorter fuselage and longer range. Any knowledge of this and a possible response from Boeing?

quote from:

http://www.thenewstribune.com/business/story/6201087p-5419327c.html

"Clark also said Emirates is interested in acquiring proposed passenger versions of Boeing’s planned 747-8 jetliner, an update of the four-engine model introduced in 1969. Emirates would only do so if Boeing stretches the design a bit to increase seating capacity, Clark told the newspaper. In July, the carrier ordered 10 of the cargo version of the 747-8."

I've heard both - not sure what they want.
joe
 
SNATH
Posts: 3049
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:23 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:07 am

Quoting N31029 (Reply 5):
#1) Has the length of the upper deck been stretched from that of the 744?

This picture, from Randy's blog, has a good illustration of the upper deck stretch.



Regards,

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
User avatar
ptharris
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:58 pm

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:01 am

Is it me, or do the engines look larger? Are they changing powerplants as well? I'm not that familiar with the 748 upgrades.
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27604
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting Ptharris (Reply 17):
Is it me, or do the engines look larger?

I don't believe they have changed from the GEnx-2B67.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8886
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:08 am

Quoting Ptharris (Reply 17):
Is it me, or do the engines look larger?

Larger than what? The engines on the B747-400? Yes, they have a larger fan due to the much higher BPR. Larger than on previous B747-8I renditions? No.
 
User avatar
ptharris
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:58 pm

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
I don't believe they have changed from the GEnx-2B67

Optical illusion, I guess. Thanks!  Big grin

So, if I may... what are the upgrades anyways? Doesn't seem that much has really changed. Composites and longer, right? What else?

Please don't throw me to the A.net blender for implying such blasphemy.  laughing 
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you.
 
User avatar
ptharris
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:58 pm

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 19):
Larger than what? The engines on the B747-400? Yes, they have a larger fan due to the much higher BPR. Larger than on previous B747-8I renditions? No.

I'm sorry, yes. That's what I was comparing it to. I have noticed that the engines seem to "fill" more wing area rather than the 747-400 engines. I guess I should have been more clear. My mistake.  ouch 
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you.
 
kaneporta1
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:22 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting Kieron747 (Reply 12):
Am i being thick? the brochure says the stretch will be 18 ft 10 in longer, since when does that equal 15.7 metres?

Kieron747

I read that too.
Maybe the European version of the 748 has an even longer stretch than the American...
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15147
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:11 am

Quoting Ptharris (Reply 21):
I'm sorry, yes. That's what I was comparing it to. I have noticed that the engines seem to "fill" more wing area rather than the 747-400 engines.

They are as big as they can get without scraping the ground. The size and complexity of the GEnx was reduced for the 748 compared to the 787 in order to fit under the inboard wing, and to make room for the bleed air system. It has fewer stages and a smaller fan than the 787 bleedless GEnx.

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 22):
I read that too.

It's 5.7m, not 15.7m.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
JAAlbert
Posts: 1980
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:43 pm

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:13 am

There was another thread recently that said the 747-8 stretch pax will result in less payload in the cargo hold. Is that belief still valid given page 9 of Boeing's brochure?
 
Boeing Nut
Topic Author
Posts: 5078
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:42 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:18 am

With EK's input as the focus, anyone have any ideas on what the performance would be of a 748i using the 744 fuselage?

Just curious.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8886
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:45 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 25):
With EK's input as the focus, anyone have any ideas on what the performance would be of a 748i using the 744 fuselage?

The difference in nominal OEW is 67,600 lbs. Let's assume that 50,000 lbs is additional fuselage weight and 17,600 lbs is the weight difference between the engines, wings, etc. Looking at the Z-chart in the brochure quoted by the OP suggests about a 1300nm range improvement.

Boeing stated that the range cost in the increased stretch was 300nm. Extrapolating from that figure suggests that a B747-400 sized B747-8I would have about 1000nm of additional range.

So, here you have two very rough back-of-the-envelope calculations. The exact difference is likely to be in or very near the 1000 to 1300nm range.
 
DTWAGENT
Posts: 753
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:16 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:00 am

That was great. It looks like to me that the upper deck is expanded almost to the half way point on the planes lenght. With room for a large crew rest area.

Chuck
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15147
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:06 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 26):
Boeing stated that the range cost in the increased stretch was 300nm. Extrapolating from that figure suggests that a B747-400 sized B747-8I would have about 1000nm of additional range.

And with the same belly tank setup as the 744ER, a 748ER (original 747 length) would likely gain 300-400nm.

Problem is, it's still "only" 9300nm then, and not enough to do some of the routes you'd need it for.

Now, what about a 748 in 747SP size. That would do 10000nm easily. And expensively...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8886
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:22 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 28):
Problem is, it's still "only" 9300nm then, and not enough to do some of the routes you'd need it for.

Routes that long don't need an airliner that large.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15147
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:54 am

Anyone else notice that with the stretch, the 748i plan looks similarly proportioned to the plans you find in cruiseline brochures? Pointy bow, rounded stern, long slim center. It's more evident than with the original 747, at least to me.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
widebodyphotog
Posts: 885
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 1999 9:23 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:40 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
Seriously, it's just for generalization purposes. Airbus does much the same. Plus, both have Business Class pitch of around 40" when the standard is probably closer to 60".



Right, and supposedly for Boeing and Airbus generic aircraft versions they use the same international seating rules. Under those rules you are using a like for like cabin utilization and the manufactures specify OEW's for those versions. Incidentally Boeing has included in the last 787-8 ACB two nice low density layouts with pod seating in first and expanded pitch seating in business. 80" pitch in first and 60" pitch in business...

Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
It would be nice to have a "common baseline" for seating, to be sure, but even then, each operator has different OEWs due to non-seating interior fittings and such, so I imagine he'll still be accused of "cooking the numbers" when the results don't track to expectations.

Expectations is an interesting way to put things. Expectations based on what? The way to determine true cabin seating is to do and actual cabin layout build up according to a set of specifications from an operator or perspective one. You build the cabin using real seats and other operator equipment, calculate OEW and do your operating analysis there. This is not terribly difficult to do and I'll do it for A-net. However the usual consulting fees will apply...

There is no magic formula to seat layouts and cabin appointments. You have to do it in the real space based on specific goals and see what you come up with. That's just how it works.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 23):
It's 5.7m, not 15.7m.

There are several mistakes in this brochure unfortunately...



-widebodyphotog
If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
brendows
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:55 pm

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:45 am

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 31):
There are several mistakes in this brochure unfortunately...

Sadly, it's not the only brochure that contains mistakes no  Boeing knows how to build jetliners, but they could need a technical editor for their ACAP documents  bouncy 
 
N31029
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:23 pm

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:09 pm

Quoting Dw747400 (Reply 7):
The upper deck is stretched as part of the forward fuselage plug.



Quoting Dw747400 (Reply 7):
I've heard several theories--most relating to how the 748I would fit with the A380.



Quoting 7cubed (Reply 15):
I've heard both - not sure what they want.



Quoting SNATH (Reply 16):
This picture, from Randy's blog, has a good illustration of the upper deck stretch.

Thank you, all!

N31029
John 3:16
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15147
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:00 pm

Quoting Brendows (Reply 32):
Boeing knows how to build jetliners, but they could need a technical editor for their ACAP documents

They just need to pay an a few young a.netters $10 an hour and they'd spot all the mistakes in all their documents within 2 days. Best $400 they could ever spend...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:30 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 34):

They just need to pay an a few young a.netters $10 an hour and they'd spot all the mistakes in all their documents within 2 days. Best $400 they could ever spend...

There are a few A.netters however I think Boeing should avoid... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
brendows
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:55 pm

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:01 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 35):
There are a few A.netters however I think Boeing should avoid... Wink

I'm afraid that there are more than a few A.nutters they should avoid  Wink
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:23 am

Quoting Brendows (Reply 36):

I'm afraid that there are more than a few A.nutters they should avoid  Wink

I guess you are right... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
khobar
Posts: 1336
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:12 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 23):
They are as big as they can get without scraping the ground. The size and complexity of the GEnx was reduced for the 748 compared to the 787 in order to fit under the inboard wing, and to make room for the bleed air system. It has fewer stages and a smaller fan than the 787 bleedless GEnx.

747 was used as a test bed for the GE90's. I wouldn't want to pay for even a slightly less-than-smooth landing, but hey, it "fits".  Wink


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Je89 W.

 
ikramerica
Posts: 15147
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:59 am

The 787 version of the GEnx is almost as big. In service, that's a pretty extreme clearance there. Yikes!
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
aerosol
Posts: 500
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2000 10:31 pm

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:23 am

Does that mean this beast is longer than the 346?

Happy flexing  Wink.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8886
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Updated Boeing 748 Brochure 10/06

Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:29 am

Quoting Aerosol (Reply 40):
Does that mean this beast is longer than the 346?

Yes, though the much greater fuselage height will keep it from flexing as much.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos