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AirTranTUS
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:44 am

Quoting Riyadhnurse (Reply 102):
Another incident just reported at EWR

Being discussed here: Lufthansa/Continental Plane Collision-EWR (by Airzim Nov 1 2006 in Civil Aviation)
I love ASO!
 
Airbus340
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:47 am

Goodness! I can't quite see how serious can an airport as EWR be when there's NO ILS on such a usable runway! How come there's NO ILS system there nowadays? (too "expensive" for the airport operator?) What will the FAA authorities say about that? Isn't the ILS a BASIC thing for international airports, especially those like New York/Newark....? (Too much talk about people security...but NO NAVIGATIONAL safety!) Whose fault will it really be? (yes, the pilots made the mistake but due to WHAT? To the incompetency of the "Ports of Newark"? How many diferent colours do the "taxiways" pavement have in EWR?

About the possibility of planes being in the taxiway at that time, any NON pilot would know NOT to land there, if the case came, even if the individual landing the plane thought that that was the runway! It's commonsense.

Only my two pence of thought I have.

Airbus340
 
potomac
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:19 am

first off, if the plane got blown off of the runway centerline on short final or even just before touchdown, the ONLY option should be a go-around.

second, 11-29 does have a ILS, but just for 11. the runway is used rarely enough as it is, with 29 being used for landing due to significant west winds. but even then, the weather has to be above certain minimums that enables a base leg from the NE or SE and a turn to final with the runway in sight. if you look at a map you can see how an ILS to 29 would make for a messy approach pattern for flights paths in and out of LGA and JFK, and around the manhattan area in general.
 
N766UA
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:20 am

Unacceptable. They should be permenantly removed from flying duty. There is no excuse for this.
 
levg79
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:29 am

Quoting 764 (Reply 7):
I do not like the way this article blows the consequences out of proportion.

For those who are not aware, this is what New York Post does.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
little drama in the article?
Quote:
The pilot made such a short stop, he left skid marks on the taxiway, which were later found by police investigating the bizarre incident, according to a source.

I can't believe the 757 was not equipped with Anti-Lock Brakes.

Quoting D950 (Reply 11):
And the control tower was where???

Understaffed?

It's funny that EWR is one of the biggest airports for CO which means that CO pilots fly in and out of EWR regularly. And yet, they confused the taxiway with a runway. Hopefully there were good enough reasons for it which would hopefully suffice in the next couple of days.

Leo.
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
 
deltajet757
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 106):
Unacceptable. They should be permenantly removed from flying duty. There is no excuse for this.

You got that right. They are absolutely responsible for this hands down. If there had been another aircraft or more on that taxiway this could have been a very serious incident.

It's strange how if one pilot was drunk or something that the other didn't try to correct the 757's position on final unless they were both drunk/stoned.

-DeltaJet757
FLY DELTA JETS
 
CWAFlyer
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:38 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 19):
You know how many times it happens, Southwest seems to have a problem in Seattle with it.

As does American and Alaska.
 
Curmudgeon
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:45 am

This kind of thing, this kind of error, happens frequently enough that it warrants emphasis during training perhaps. I have friends who were almost squashed on a taxiway in CLE by a 737 doing this same thing in the snow. In their case, the 1000 or so feet of tire marks in the unplowed taxiway behind them was proof of their close encounter (20 years ago)

I'm glad that YYZ has tightened its approach monitoring for the south parallels. There are plenty of airports in the world where this type of error can easily be made.

While not a factor in this case, I have seen shafts of sunlight on a partly cloudy day really highlight certain features on the ground. Something as prosaic as that could be enough to lure a pilot onto the wrong (non-ILS) piece of pavement.

To those who are still gathering wood for the pilot burning: unless these guys were hanging out the window, lipstick on collar and martini in hand (like we used to do it all the time in the good old days Wink) ease up on the rhetoric. This is one more in the long list of ways to screw up in an airplane while trying to get the job done, while exercising what seems like due care right up until touchdown.

One final note: Performing a circling approach in a jet airliner is the toughest thing pilots do. Doing it at night ramps up the difficulty even more, and doing it to a tight final, with no approach lights puts it right at the limits of average ability. Factor in a turbulent, blistering crosswind throughout the base turn? I don't know of any airlines that would even have this scenario as a simulator exercise.
Jets are for kids
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:52 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 106):
Unacceptable. They should be permenantly removed from flying duty. There is no excuse for this.



Quoting Deltajet757 (Reply 108):
You got that right. They are absolutely responsible for this hands down. If there had been another aircraft or more on that taxiway this could have been a very serious incident.

Draconian measures such as a lifetime ban for errors often have adverse effects. First of all, it needs to be determined if the pilots were negligent and if so, how badly. Flying multiple segments a day, fatigue often creeps in, and there are of course other factors. Things are not as black and white as a rag like the NYP describes.

If pilots (or any other employees) are punished harshly for any mistake, they often start covering up mistakes. That's hardly conducive to a safe flying environment. An open environment in which errors are dealt with in a mature manner, without pointless draconian gestures, leads to safer air travel for everyone.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
radiocheck
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:26 am

Looks like a whole lot of people have been using their Jump to Conclusions mat.

Get it?! It's a mat....with conclusions....you can...JUMP to!!!!!!
 
RiddlePilot215
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:34 am

Quoting D950 (Reply 10):
And the control tower was where???

Doing "administrative" duties...like those fine Lexington, KY controllers  bigthumbsup 
God is good, all the time. All the time, God is good.
 
IFEMaster
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:39 am

Quoting Radiocheck (Reply 109):
Looks like a whole lot of people have been using their Jump to Conclusions mat.

Get it?! It's a mat....with conclusions....you can...JUMP to!!!!!!

Well I'm going to need that TPS report ASAP...K?
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
Bobster2
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:41 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 108):
they often start covering up mistakes.

I'd like to know if they preserved the CVR evidence or did they cause it to be overwritten.
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
iahcsr
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:50 am

IF.... anyone cares... It was Ship 105 and later that evening departed to LGW as CO28..
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
Mir
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:51 am

Quoting EWRATC (Reply 44):
OH WAIT THERE IS NO ILS TO 29 THINK PEOPLE BEFORE YOU TYPE.

Damn straight.  checkmark 

Quoting B737900er (Reply 59):
All of CO's 757 are land 3. I was just wondering why an autoland was not performed.

Though an airplane may be autoland equipped, it doesn't mean that autolands are done. Pilots do have to maintain proficiency.

Quoting SkyHigh777 (Reply 63):
Man even on Flight Simulator I always manage to land on the correct runways...there has to be a good explanation to this because both pilots should have been aware that they were landing on a taxiway rather than runway.

Wow, so you can land a plane in Flight Simulator!!! And that automatically qualifies you to land a plane in real life!!! I can always distinguish between a runway and a taxiway in FS too, so I guess all that money I'm spending on actual flight hours is a real waste....  Yeah sure

Quoting Airbus340 (Reply 101):
Goodness! I can't quite see how serious can an airport as EWR be when there's NO ILS on such a usable runway! How come there's NO ILS system there nowadays? (too "expensive" for the airport operator?) What will the FAA authorities say about that? Isn't the ILS a BASIC thing for international airports, especially those like New York/Newark....? (Too much talk about people security...but NO NAVIGATIONAL safety!)

Or perhaps that the extended centerline of runway 29 passes quite close to the buildings of Lower Manhattan, a mere 7.5 miles from the threshold. Far too steep a descent for an ILS (not to mention that it would conflict with LGA and JFK traffic). I don't have as good a knowlege of EWR traffic patterns as some on here, but I do know that 29 is pretty much used only when the winds are too strong for the longer runways 4/22, and that's an extremely rare occurrence. No pressing need for an ILS, and it would be impractical to install one. And yes, money is an issue. When you hardly ever use a runway, there's no point in making an precision instrument approach to it. As far as navigational safety goes, I think that the fact that this is the first time something like this has happened is testament to the fact that the ILS to 22L circle-to-land 29 is a safe procedure. It's attitudes like yours that want to close down the New York airspace to small planes after one very public accident due solely to pilot error.

-------

Crazy theory here, but might the crew have been trying to use the back course of runway 11's ILS as an additional aid to line up with 29? The ILS isn't exactly lined up with the runway, and that would have meant that the back course would be even farther off on the 29 side (the localizer is halfway down runway 11/29 between the runway and taxiway Z). So when the needle was centered, they would have been lined up with something, but it would be the taxiway, not the runway.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
777gk
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:12 pm

I am not going to comment on the situation as I am well acquainted with most of the involved parties and it would not therefore be professional for me to offer any opinion.

However, I will say a few things:

The winds in the NYC metropolitan area over this past weekend were as bad as we have seen here in quite some time. I was out of the country on Saturday, but I hauled a 764 in on 29 Sunday afternoon, and it was quite a ride. The approach to 29 on anything larger than a 737 is a sight to see from the Turnpike, on par with the Canarsie and former Kai Tak approaches with regard to the pure flying skill involved in properly executing them. Very rarely does on see heavy traffic landing on 29, only in the most harsh circumstances will we resort to it. To give you an indicator, Sunday we were sandwiched in between several 757/767s on 29. We will only use it if we had to, and in this case, we certainly did. The approach procedures for 29 are well-described above, and can best be called primitive, not unsafe, due mostly to the fact that we rarely use the strip for arriving traffic.

Please reserve judgment on this case until after all the information comes about, I can assure you there is much more to this one than meets the eye.


-----------------------------------
On a slightly related note, word on the street is that one of our 75's on an mx movement was involved in a minor incident with an LH 747 this evening. A buddy of mine said one of the winglets got busted up pretty nicely, but neither aircraft is seriously damaged. It's been a rough week at EWR (incidentally one of my last)...
 
brons2
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:29 pm

Quoting Potomac (Reply 53):
let's take into account the source (not just the reliaable NY Post but the often aviation-ignorant media in general) when we read "skid marks." i'd interpret this less likely to be braking skid marks and more likely to be the skid marks you see all over the touchdown zone on a runway where the wheels first hit the ground.

I'll bet he had a few skid marks in his shorts as well, when he realized he landed on a taxiway!  Big grin
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
lincoln
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:33 pm

Quoting 777gk (Reply 115):
(incidentally one of my last)...

May I ask why-- moving elsewhere in the system or (looking at your profile) approaching retirement? If the latter, best wishes in future endeavors.

Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
djw030468
Posts: 48
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:41 pm

Shoulda used AUTOland! Works for me every time on my PMDG 747! Err except for 28L at CMH....THAT lands you ON the taxiway!
 
flanker
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:03 pm

At this point everyone sounds rediculous. Yes it was a mistake, yes it couldve been bad, but it wasnt. And its not the first time that this has happend. So lay off the speculation and wait for the results of the investigation.
 sigh 

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 48):
Could it also be that the copilot lined up correctly, and the captain told him he lined up wrong? Being a relatively new hire and not wanting to question the captain, he just took his word for it. I know it's all speculation, but it's all we can do for now, and it's kinda fun to do. Smile

Very good point. We just have to wait and see what the tapes yield!
 yes 
 
rdwelch
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:22 pm

Quoting Turnit56N (Reply 80):
If EWRATC is actually a controller at EWR, I'm not sure why anyone else is speculating here. I've been based at a few different airports and flown into hundreds. New York TRACON and Newark ATC are pretty much at the top of my list of most trusted facilities. If a EWR controller says there were extenuating circumstances, that's good enough for me.

I trust his judgement and that of any NY metro ATC.

Quoting 777gk (Reply 115):
It's been a rough week at EWR (incidentally one of my last)...

Good luck with your Mooney and golf game.

Gus
They say I have ADD, but they don't understand..Oh look! A chicken!
 
777gk
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:30 pm

I won't divulge my exact date of retirement- for fear of revealing my true identity- but I will say that the 'big day' is fast approaching. My profile will reflect my change in status at the appropriate time!

Thanks for the good wishes! Big grin
 
swaopsusafatc
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:08 pm

Quoting 777gk (Reply 115):
The approach to 29 on anything larger than a 737 is a sight to see from the Turnpike, on par with the Canarsie and former Kai Tak approaches with regard to the pure flying skill involved in properly executing them

Just a quick question.. Is there any company reg saying the captain will fly this type of approach? Seems to me that if it is a tricky approach and the FO is a fairly new guy that the Captain would take it. I in no way mean to say the FO was not profecient in flying the aircraft.. We all know FO's spend much time on Flight simulator 9 practicing...
 
B777ER
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:17 pm

Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 110):
Doing "administrative" duties...like those fine Lexington, KY controllers

I should send this to the NATCA guys at DAB tower and then see how long your CFI and your wannabe butt sit on the taxiway in the heat waiting to do your pattern work....typical Riddle wannabe.
 
jasond
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:23 pm

What I always wonder about with these things is what the crew actually say to each other when its over. Imagine this crew after completing the roll-out in this case looking at each other. What are their first words!! Fly on the wall stuff I'm sure.
 
RiddlePilot215
Posts: 280
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:19 pm

RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:15 pm

Quoting B777ER (Reply 123):
I should send this to the NATCA guys at DAB tower and then see how long your CFI and your wannabe butt sit on the taxiway in the heat waiting to do your pattern work....typical Riddle wannabe.

Not so much. What I said was a pun at the controllers that just well...suck at their job (and by suck I mean just from an outside view, a blatent, or maybe even inadvertant negligence of their perscribed job duties, and protocol). It's like the "hey, there's a pilot, that means there must be a bar close to here" jokes. The guys in DAB are amazing controllers, especially for what they have to put up with. But it's the guys like in the Lexington tower, and now the Newark tower that makes the hard work of my hometown controllers all go down the 'effing drain.

Because we all know to a lesser extent, that the controller on duty that evening, and his supervisor are going to get one hell of a grilling from the FAA as to why the TOWER, the second line of defense in this "situational awareness" thing in an approach situation (after being handed off) didn't see that something was amiss, and notify that to the aircrew with a statement that most likely should have gone like this...

"Continental 1883 Heavy, it appears as though you are lined up for taxiway xxx, go-around."

I mean a controller's primary objective is to deliever safe and expedious service, to the best of their personal ability, while contributing to the greater good of the common ATC system. I fail to see how
A) this incident is safe (just because nobody died doesn't mean that a little water under the dam is ok).

B) how this sped anything up, in terms of air traffic capacity. If anything now you have most likely 4 guys who are wondering wtf is going to happen to them, all because of a basic lack of observation, and situational awareness.

C) This incident does ANYTHING but help the plight of an air traffic controller. We all understand that the system is grossly understaffed for the kind of services that all controllers are expected to give, however, it's not to be overlooked that in the face of shortages and suffering, one must INCREASE their productivity and awareness in order to cope with this issue. Doing 'paperwork' or looking elsewhere when your primary responsibility is making sure that airplane gets on the ground, and comes to a complete stop on a taxiway (no pun intended) is just unacceptable.


Do I sound a bit harsh? Yes, but that's only because I know about the hard work and many sacrifices thousands of controllers have had to make, the tough decisions made everyday that save lives. Couple that with the fact that NOT EVERYBODY CAN BE AN AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER.

If being an air traffic controller was comperable to working at Burger King, ok, then I'd say, go ahead, be a nark, and rat me out to the NATCA guys at DAB, b/c what I said was just mean and unfounded. But you really are just getting your prop, your gear, and your wings all bend out of shape over this.

Oh, and secondly, I'm a business major, with an ATC minor, that just so happens to enjoys flying  Smile Not some Aero-Sci kid with a stick up his ass, who thinks they're gonna have an insta-airline job when they graduate.
God is good, all the time. All the time, God is good.
 
jumpseatflyer
Posts: 155
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:13 pm

RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:18 pm

Quoting 764 (Reply 6):
Sure, the TWY is just 70 feet wide and the wingspan might be 150feet, but what's the problem. It's a taxiway and taxiways are meant to beused by airliners with large wingspans. So there has to be a sufficient cearance.

a) Taxiways have limits. A 757 landing on a taxiway can generate enough force to put it out of commision.
b) Taxiways normally have objects on them.

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 98):
If wind was a factor in misalignment with the runway, maybe the pilot did the right thing in landing on something that was at least paved. It could have been grass and dirt...

No. The pilot would have done the right thing by going around given this scenario.

No excuse for this one. I despise the fact that people think ATC should share some responsibility. That goes for the LEX crash as well.
 
RiddlePilot215
Posts: 280
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:19 pm

RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:25 pm

Quoting Jumpseatflyer (Reply 126):
No excuse for this one. I despise the fact that people think ATC should share some responsibility. That goes for the LEX crash as well.

No judgement is greater than the one exercised by the PIC of ANY airplane. However if you go by the 7110.65, [sic. the controller] whoever is currently handling the plane, AS WELL as the pilot in command both share the same responsiblity towards safety.

However if any instruction given by ATC is in violation or is questionable by the PIC, the PIC can politely refuse, provided he gives the reason and nature of refusing an ATC order.
God is good, all the time. All the time, God is good.
 
cumulus
Posts: 1003
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:00 pm

Didn't this happen at LGW some years ago with a Continental jet landing on the taxiway?
What Goes Up Must Come Down, Hopefully In One Piece!
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:10 pm

Quoting Usair320 (Reply 96):
WOW...... this could have ben a disaster. I hope this Dumba$$ loses his job and licence.



Quoting N766UA (Reply 103):
Unacceptable. They should be permenantly removed from flying duty. There is no excuse for this.



Quoting Deltajet757 (Reply 105):
You got that right. They are absolutely responsible for this hands down. If there had been another aircraft or more on that taxiway this could have been a very serious incident.

Do you people think any investigation should be swept under the carpet and no-one should bother to take a look at the whole picture to see if any improvements can be made? Just sack the pilots and that fixes everything?

Quoting Potomac (Reply 102):
first off, if the plane got blown off of the runway centerline on short final or even just before touchdown, the ONLY option should be a go-around.

Because of that I have to assume that wasn't the case and they thought they were landing on the runway.

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 104):
It's funny that EWR is one of the biggest airports for CO which means that CO pilots fly in and out of EWR regularly. And yet, they confused the taxiway with a runway. Hopefully there were good enough reasons for it which would hopefully suffice in the next couple of days.

I guess you didn't read the posts above that dealt with that.

Quoting Deltajet757 (Reply 105):
It's strange how if one pilot was drunk or something that the other didn't try to correct the 757's position on final unless they were both drunk/stoned.

Enough with the "drunk" and "stoned" theories. If it's possible for such a mistake to happen to stone-cold sober pilots, why invent more factors?

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 107):
One final note: Performing a circling approach in a jet airliner is the toughest thing pilots do. Doing it at night ramps up the difficulty even more, and doing it to a tight final, with no approach lights puts it right at the limits of average ability. Factor in a turbulent, blistering crosswind throughout the base turn?

Again one of the few who's actually bothered to think before posting.  Smile

Quoting 777gk (Reply 115):
The approach procedures for 29 are well-described above, and can best be called primitive, not unsafe, due mostly to the fact that we rarely use the strip for arriving traffic.

That's interesting... but clearly our armchair experts don't think it's relevant.  Smile

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 95):
I think Gatwick has had more then 1 incident of this nature alright!



Quoting Cumulus (Reply 128):
Didn't this happen at LGW some years ago with a Continental jet landing on the taxiway?

OK, so that's Air Malta, BWIA and Continental so far. I guess ATC have more of a duty to make sure aircraft are aiming for the correct taxiway when the runway's being maintained at LGW these days.  Smile
 
joffie
Posts: 845
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:40 pm

Sorry for being off topic, but I noticed this happened the day before?? the Gernam Lufthansa and Continental 757 had a mini colission at the same airport.

Even freaky, both happened at 6:30 PM

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/10/31/plane.crash/index.html

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10312006...murray_weiss_and_jeremy_olshan.htm

I know there is a seperate thread, but thought i might want to post an observation.
 
David L
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Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:47 pm

Quoting Joffie (Reply 130):

Thanks but it's been mentioned a few times in this thread.  Smile
 
BoeingOnFinal
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:47 am

RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:00 pm

There was an incedent here in Norway where a Pegasus airline aircraft startet it's takeoff roll on the taxiway, but tower managed to correct them. But they still had some 80 kts before slowing down, if I remember correctly.

And what is wierd, is that on this particular aircraft there where 3 crewmembers on the flightdeck. Someone should have noticed that they where on a taxiway.

At daylight, the stripes are white on the airfield and yellow on taxiway, right? Here in Norway they are all yellow.

At nighttime, aren't there different lighting colours to tell apart?
norwegianpilot.blogspot.com
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:04 pm

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 112):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 108):
they often start covering up mistakes.

I'd like to know if they preserved the CVR evidence or did they cause it to be overwritten.

Hehe. Well in this case it would be tricky to cover up. But for other mistakes, ones that could be covered up, it's important to keep an open environment. The worst thing that can happen is that pilots are afraid to report minor mistakes for fear of big punishments. In this case, if they are negligent, they should of course be censored. However, proposing to end their careers without even running an investigation (as some have suggested) is just plain stupid.

Quoting Mir (Reply 114):
Quoting B737900er (Reply 59):
All of CO's 757 are land 3. I was just wondering why an autoland was not performed.

Though an airplane may be autoland equipped, it doesn't mean that autolands are done. Pilots do have to maintain proficiency.

Indeed. Also autolands require more setup and less maneuvering close to the airport.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
David L
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:08 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 133):
Also autolands require more setup and less maneuvering close to the airport.

Like ILS, for a start.  Smile
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:11 pm

Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 125):
But it's the guys like in the Lexington tower, and now the Newark tower that makes the hard work of my hometown controllers all go down the 'effing drain.

I must say, you have completely allowed yourself to look like a total idiot. I have read your posts over and over and come to this conclusion.....I want to pay for you to fly your Riddle airplane to IAH, get you into the tower and TRACON, make sure all the controllers in the building get a chance to read your posts and then let the games begin! I challenge you to visit an air traffic facility and see if what you may actually have in your little pea sized brain pertaining to aviation or even life itself is close to being correct. Gosh I pity any students or co-workers you may have.

Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 125):
Because we all know to a lesser extent, that the controller on duty that evening, and his supervisor are going to get one hell of a grilling from the FAA as to why the TOWER, the second line of defense in this "situational awareness" thing in an approach situation (after being handed off) didn't see that something was amiss, and notify that to the aircrew with a statement that most likely should have gone like this...

I see you now have a new title as well, another Chief FAA investigator....and now WE all do not know a hell of a grilling will happen. Do you have any idea of what a controller at EWR may use to notice something was amiss in this event? NO

"Continental 1883 Heavy, it appears as though you are lined up for taxiway xxx, go-around."

MMMM When did CO start flight planning their B752's as a HEAVY? They didn't as they limit their max t/o weight to 255,00 lbs so your concept of what the controllers should have transmitted is not correct. Oh, I guess you missed that in the data block while you were in the EWR tower helping all them with situational awareness, nor did you not get the change notice to your ATC 101 handbook about 7 yrs back telling you that 255,000 lbs is still a large, not heavy?

Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 125):
Doing 'paperwork' or looking elsewhere when your primary responsibility is making sure that airplane gets on the ground, and comes to a complete stop on a taxiway (no pun intended) is just unacceptable

Learn what the "primary responsibility" is of a controller! You as a pilot actually are letting the controller fly your airplane with the yoke in the tower I see.

Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 125):
If being an air traffic controller was comperable to working at Burger King, ok, then I'd say, go ahead, be a nark, and rat me out to the NATCA guys at DAB, b/c what I said was just mean and unfounded. But you really are just getting your prop, your gear, and your wings all bend out of shape over this.

Nope, you have totally pissed me off by your unfounded bashing of a group of professionals in a field that you have ZERO knowledge of, and I trust your tone and ignorance of this field has pissed of many others in this forum that are well respected, have experience in aviation, and knowledge gained from that experience, unlike yourself.

Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 125):
Oh, and secondly, I'm a business major, with an ATC minor, that just so happens to enjoys flying Not some Aero-Sci kid with a stick up his ass, who thinks they're gonna have an insta-airline job when they graduate.

Great, so with your ATC minor and an enjoyment of flying I feel much better challenging you to take that visit I mentioned before, but you won't enjoy it I assure you as much as you do that stick you'll be sucking.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
turnit56N
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:13 am

RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:10 pm

Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 125):
But it's the guys like in the Lexington tower, and now the Newark tower that makes the hard work of my hometown controllers all go down the 'effing drain.

IAHFLYR is a lot more qualified than I am to beat you down, but you have made me spitting mad...and that doesn't happen often. How many times have you flown into EWR? Do you realize how much traffic they work and under what conditions? EWR ATC is one of the most professional and most capable towers in the US. I've flown into DAB many times and while they're great, the DAB controllers on their worst day don't deal with what EWR deals with every day. I can't count how many times I've worked my way in and out of EWR when it seemed like the sky was about to open and brimstone was about to pour down on us all....and every time the EWR controllers manage to stack the 11 and 22L arrivals just so, and organize the mass of heavies and RJs to 22R even though they're all going to different departure gates, some of which are closed and some of which are 30 miles in trail. And they make it all work with a sense of humor and calm. I never thought I'd see the day that ANYONE would question the ability of the EWR controllers, much less an ATC student from Riddle.

Oh, and by the way, IAHFLYR also works more aircraft in a day than you can even imagine. Pay attention to what he says.
Aviation is not so much a profession as it is a disease.
 
MD88Captain
Posts: 1224
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 9:50 am

RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:21 pm

Despite the excellent beatdown provided to the Riddlepilot, I will also point out that a controller or taxiing pilot on tower frequency has to have just the right angle to be sure that an approaching aircraft is going to the taxiway instead of runway. I've been at the holdshort many times thinking that an approaching aircraft was lined up on my earhole. A little crosswind makes it hard to determine. The perspective thing can fool you even when your angle is good.

Bottom line here is the the PIC is at fault. Bottom line he did something bad. Somebody (tower, another aircraft on freq) might have saved him, but that didn't happen. He screwed up in a big, big way. Now it is pay up time. There by the grace of God go I.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15527
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:02 am

There are a number of great posts here that are fodder for an investigation ideas.

Quoting Alibo5NGN (Reply 71):

Great picture of 11/29, although it might not have been as clear when this incident happened. Even so, it it quite obvious what is the runway, and I am not a pilot!

Quoting Nyskymasters (Reply 61):
There are several factors that are going to have to be looked at. First, the weather was not the best that day in the NYC area. We had heavy rain in the morning followed by cloudy conditions with breaks of sun all afternoon. This was all in addition to very high winds.

Second, if the flight was close to ontime (I have not been able to see what time it actually landed) then that would have put the flight touching down about 10 minutes before sunset. If I remember correctly, the sun was not too obstructed by clouds at sunset. Also, landing on runway 29 would put the sun right in their eyes.

Third, ATC would not really be able to see whether they were lined up on 29 or taxiway Z.

Fourth, this was a very experienced captain into and out of EWR. Also, I can't believe that they didn't report it to someone especially with ASAP in effect at Continental. Nobody would be that unwise since ASAP is as close to a "get out of jail free" card as one will get.

The above quote notes a number of issues to be considered.

Quoting Turnit56N (Reply 80):



Quoting Dc10srule (Reply 89):



Quoting Mir (Reply 114):

Some of these other posters reiterate the weather, experience, issues as to ATC, ILS for 11/29. One item that may have to be examined is how much experience the captain/FO had with EWR's runway 11/29. As one post noted, 11/29 is rarely used for a/c like a 757. If I am also correct, could the taxiways they landed on be part of old runways? I believe that 11/29 was a realignment and relocation done in the late 1950's/early 1960's of the original diagonal runway and main runway for EWR.
Still something looks weird and hopefully the investigation will figure out what happened, give the appropriate training and punishment to whoever caused this.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 4271
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:45 am

Quoting Turnit56N (Reply 136):
but you have made me spitting mad...and that doesn't happen often

Doesn't happen to me either and thanks for the kind words!
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
spacecadet
Posts: 3582
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:54 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 138):
Still something looks weird and hopefully the investigation will figure out what happened, give the appropriate training and punishment to whoever caused this.

I don't really know why there's still a question about "whoever caused this". It's kind of beating a dead horse at this point but it obviously hasn't gotten through to everyone - the PIC is the person that caused this.

Whether that means he should be summarily fired is another question, and the investigation will determine the factors that led he and his co-pilot to land on a taxiway. But make no mistake: it is the PIC's absolute freakin' responsibility to make sure that his/her plane lands on the runway! And absolute means absolute. There is nobody else who *could* have caused this, much less anyone else who might have. There were two people in that cockpit and it is the actions on the control systems in that cockpit that put that plane on the taxiway - the ATC wasn't up there pulling levers and pushing buttons and neither was the wind. This is *why* federal regulations put the responsibility for the safety of the aircraft in the PIC's hands. It is his fault and nobody else's.

The investigation will determine what caused him to make such a mistake. It will not determine who made the mistake because there is no such determination to make. But the factors involved in the mistake could still lead to useful information that can be used to improve training or otherwise improve safety. So it is still a necessary and useful investigation.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
B777ER
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:35 pm

RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:57 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 135):
nor did you not get the change notice to your ATC 101 handbook about 7 yrs back telling you that 255,000 lbs is still a large, not heavy?

To a Riddle kid, anything bigger than a Cessna 172 is "heavy" Big grin

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 135):
has pissed of many others in this forum that are well respected, have experience in aviation, and knowledge gained from that experience, unlike yourself.

I am in law enforcement but have taken the time (as aviation is a true passion of mine) to learn as much as I can about ATC and aviation as a whole. I really wish 17 years ago when I was 18 and going into the military that I elected to wait on a ATC slot rather than settle for the job I did get. I would trade my law enforcement shoes any day for a pair of ATC shoes. I love how Riddlepilot bashes his own field that he is trying to get into.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting Jpax (Reply 68):
Aw comon, if you are going to bash my home state- at least do it properly!

Your right, let me rephrase.

The pilot became confused due to the high levels of ___________ near the airport playing tricks on the runway lights.

A. Pollution
B. Smog
C. Landfills

There is no wrong answer.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:39 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 138):
If I am also correct, could the taxiways they landed on be part of old runways? I believe that 11/29 was a realignment and relocation done in the late 1950's/early 1960's of the original diagonal runway and main runway for EWR.

While I'm not sure what the history of EWR is, I think it's pretty safe to assume that neither the captain nor the FO would have had the opportunity to experience whatever the previous alignment was.  Smile So that shouldn't have been a factor.

From looking at the Google Earth photo of EWR, I don't see any indicatiors of a previous runway. That doesn't mean that they aren't there, or that the runway did not previously exist (one of JFK's previous runways is pretty well hidden unless you know where to look), but it would lead me to believe that there weren't any visual clues that would have confused the crew, particularly at night (any lights associated with the old runway would have been removed).

Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 125):
The guys in DAB are amazing controllers, especially for what they have to put up with. But it's the guys like in the Lexington tower, and now the Newark tower that makes the hard work of my hometown controllers all go down the 'effing drain.

Wow. The controllers at DAB are good people, and they do a good job, but they don't handle nearly the amount of traffic that an airport like EWR handles. In fact, DAB isn't really that busy - I've flown to Class D airports that get busier. There's really not much more to say that Turnit56N and IAHFLYR haven't gotten to, but if you really believe for a second that the controllers at EWR, or LEX, or any airport in this country aren't completely qualified to do what they do, you're absolutely delusional. I'd love for you to go up into the EWR tower and tell them what you think of the job they do. It would probably be the most enlightening day of your life.

Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 125):
Because we all know to a lesser extent, that the controller on duty that evening, and his supervisor are going to get one hell of a grilling from the FAA as to why the TOWER, the second line of defense in this "situational awareness" thing in an approach situation (after being handed off) didn't see that something was amiss, and notify that to the aircrew with a statement that most likely should have gone like this...

"Continental 1883 Heavy, it appears as though you are lined up for taxiway xxx, go-around."

I'd study up on your phraseology a bit there.  Yeah sure Not to mention that it isn't very easy to determine whether someone is lined up for a runway or adjacent taxiway, particularly when the landing path is at the kind of angle that the approach end of 29 is with respect to the tower. Until you've been in a tower, how about holding off on authoritatively stating what the controllers should be able to see?

Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 125):
I mean a controller's primary objective is to deliever safe and expedious service, to the best of their personal ability, while contributing to the greater good of the common ATC system.



Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 125):
Doing 'paperwork' or looking elsewhere when your primary responsibility is making sure that airplane gets on the ground, and comes to a complete stop on a taxiway (no pun intended) is just unacceptable.

First of all, since you're an ATC student, pull out your .65 and have a look at what the primary purpose of ATC is. Here's a hint: it's the first damn thing you'll come across after the introduction.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
N766UA
Posts: 8367
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 108):
First of all, it needs to be determined if the pilots were negligent and if so, how badly.

I'm sorry... they landed on a TAXIWAY. Needs to be determined?! Are you kidding? Unless there is a serious emergency and no regular runway is available there is no excuse for them to land on a taxiway ever. I don't know about you but I sure don't want a crew flying my airplane who screw up that badly. We're just lucky nothing else was on that taxiway.

I gurantee you that if I landed on a taxiway and someone from the FAA saw me they'd yank my ticket no questions asked and I'm not responsible for hundreds of people.
 
sidishus
Posts: 488
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:45 am

RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:51 am

Quote:
When did CO start flight planning their B752's as a HEAVY?

Won't defend Riddle's gross mischaracterizations nor will I rush to judgement on the cause of this incident because, as mentioned by some of the actually knowledgeable posters above (unlike the FS aces who seem to "Know it All" I don't know enough to speculate), there are extenuating circumstances involved...

But-had to put in this minor quibble-all 757s are "Heavy".
the truth: first it is ridiculed second it is violently opposed finally it is accepted as self-evident
 
N766UA
Posts: 8367
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting Sidishus (Reply 145):
But-had to put in this minor quibble-all 757s are "Heavy".

Only ATA 752s are heavy, CO has no "heavy" 752s, although they are treated that way by ATC for seperation they are not over 255,000 lbs and thus are not heavy.
 
sidishus
Posts: 488
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:45 am

RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 146):
Only ATA 752s are heavy, CO has no "heavy" 752s, although they are treated that way by ATC for seperation they are not over 255,000 lbs and thus are not heavy.

Should have included "for ATC purposes". So COA1883 was "Continental 1883 Heavy" on the radio as Riddle suggested.
the truth: first it is ridiculed second it is violently opposed finally it is accepted as self-evident
 
N766UA
Posts: 8367
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:07 am

Quoting Sidishus (Reply 147):
So COA1883 was "Continental 1883 Heavy" on the radio as Riddle suggested.

No. ATC only uses it for seperation. If it was a 757-200 then it was not heavy. If it was a -300 then it was, but I'm assuming it was a 752 so no, it was not heavy on the radio.
 
B777ER
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:35 pm

RE: CO 757 Landing Error At EWR

Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting Sidishus (Reply 145):
But-had to put in this minor quibble-all 757s are "Heavy".

I believe (though I may be wrong) the the 753's are classified heavy.

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