Lufthansa/Continental Plane wing clip-EWR

airzim · Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:09 am

I'm sitting at EWR waiting for pushback and apparently a LH and CO plane wacked wingtips and knocked the winglets off. Not good for CO at EWR this week.

scaredflyer21 · Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:13 am

Quoting Airzim (Thread starter):
Not good for CO at EWR this week.

Nope...Def. not...

What type of planes were involved? How did the crew handle it?

CALMSP · Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:18 am

we were bringing our 757 from the hangar to the gate via the Supertug. LH 744 was taxiing on another runway and clipped the right wing of our 757.

airzim · Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:19 am

I can't see it, but the captain informed us a LH 744 taxied past a CO 757 and took of the winglet on the 757. He's insinuating the LH plane was at fault, but since I'm on a CO jet it doesn't surprise me.

CALMSP · Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:23 am

you would be correct. i believe our plane was stopped awaiting clearance to proceed, when he was struck by LH.

greg3322 · Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:34 am

The stupid media in Los Angeles (KABC 7) just had "Breaking News" that said a CO plane landed on a taxiway and may have collided with another plane. They were showing a picture of the LH 747

Good job!

Greg

IAHFLYR · Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:42 am

Quoting Greg3322 (Reply 5):
The stupid media in Los Angeles (KABC 7) just had "Breaking News" that said a CO plane landed on a taxiway and may have collided with another plane. They were showing a picture of the LH 747

Once again right on top of their game combining 2 events into 1 and wanting to be taken seriously......I am very surprised they haven't turned this into a terrorist event yet in the metro NY area and have numerous former FBI and aviation experts commenting. ill

Expert.......by definition is a former spert.

SuseJ772 · Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:59 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 6):
Once again right on top of their game combining 2 events into 1 and wanting to be taken seriously......I am very surprised they haven't turned this into a terrorist event yet in the metro NY area and have numerous former FBI and aviation experts commenting.

sw733 · Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:07 am

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/31/plane.crash/index.html

At least CNN is being calm about it - no "big accident" stuff!

Glad to hear it was no biggy and everyone is ok.

detroitflyer · Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:03 pm

So what happened to the passengers on the planes, they must have been pissed Sad

Also do you think the lufthansa pilots will be in a whole deal of trouble??

PlymSpotter · Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:10 pm

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 9):
Also do you think the lufthansa pilots will be in a whole deal of trouble??

Depends if they were where they should have been, if so, then they are fine and ATC is in a whole bunch of trouble. If not, then the LH crew is in a whole load of trouble.

Dan Smile

rampkontroler · Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:15 pm

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 9):
So what happened to the passengers on the planes, they must have been pissed

CALMSP's remarks say that the CO 757 was under tow...so there would have been no passengers onboard the Continental ship. The folks on LH however....I'll bet more than a couple missed their connecting flights!

COewrAAtysAZ · Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:16 pm

I thought CO said the pilots of that 757 flight from MCO had been taken off of duty until the investigation was finished. What are they doing in the cockpit again? They struck again.

(And before anyone tries to comment on my mistake, I KNOW that it was being pulled by the supertug and taxied over w/ a crew)

CRGsFuture · Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:20 pm

Wow, intresting stuff. If anything it will be ATC's fault for not realizing the dimensions of the taxiways. Most likely this was there fault and not the one of the LH pilots or the CO crew.

lincoln · Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:39 pm

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 13):
Wow, intresting stuff. If anything it will be ATC's fault for not realizing the dimensions of the taxiways. Most likely this was there fault and not the one of the LH pilots or the CO crew.

I disagree; the captain is ultimately responsible for their aircraft and should be aware of the dimensions of their aircraft. For the sake of arguement assuming that the CO jet was stopped and the LH jet was moving then the LH crew is responsible.

If you're at a red stop light and the light turns green you have permission to proceed but you may not proceed if it is unsafe. That is, if there is a semi crossing the intersection in front of you (perhaps running a red light or stuck because other traffic didn't clear) and the light turns green, this doesn't mean that you should hit the gas, crash into the semi, and then sue the city because you were just doing what the light told you to.

Lincoln

louA340 · Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:40 pm

So whats the situation on the LH744? I guess it will be staying at EWR until the techs take a look at it.

flanker · Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:08 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 6):
The stupid media in Los Angeles (KABC 7) just had "Breaking News" that said a CO plane landed on a taxiway and may have collided with another plane. They were showing a picture of the LH 747

Good job!

Yeah its not just the LA media. Same crap all over the states with just about every topic.

EWRATC · Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:10 pm

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 13):

Last time I checked the pilot in command is responsible for the controls of his aircraft. That means if you hit something it is your fault just like a car. You can look that up in the AIM during recess at school.

CRGsFuture · Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:12 pm

Quoting Lincoln:
I disagree; the captain is ultimately responsible for their aircraft and should be aware of the dimensions of their aircraft. For the sake of arguement assuming that the CO jet was stopped and the LH jet was moving then the LH crew is responsible.

If you're at a red stop light and the light turns green you have permission to proceed but you may not proceed if it is unsafe. That is, if there is a semi crossing the intersection in front of you (perhaps running a red light or stuck because other traffic didn't clear) and the light turns green, this doesn't mean that you should hit the gas, crash into the semi, and then sue the city because you were just doing what the light told you to.

Actually it is the job of LH pilots to follow the instructions of the EWR tower, it is the job of tower to know the dimensions of the taxiways and the relative lenghts of two given airplanes. You red light scenario works if it is like a "Cross" intersection however we are talking about two airplanes side to side.

Its like your in your car and a friend says all clear to pass another car without taking into account the dimensions of your side-view mirror. So you as a driver think its clear till your side view mirror donks off the other car's side-view mirror. This situatuion works because the mirror adds two or three more inches of clearance and if you are not paying attention or think it is all clear especially because you are focusing ahead of you its the fault of the controlling office for not doing the math.

CRGsFuture · Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:17 pm

Quoting EWRATC:
Last time I checked the pilot in command is responsible for the controls of his aircraft

Last time I checked it was the job of the ground controller to safely lead a aircraft to a gate without incident at a Class "B" controlled airport. And its not in the AIM its common sense.

flanker · Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:20 pm

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 18):

Last time I checked the pilot in command is responsible for the controls of his aircraft. That means if you hit something it is your fault just like a car. You can look that up in the AIM during recess at school.

well you need to check again Smile

its in the FAR's

RC135U · Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:21 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 6):
Expert.......by definition is a former spert.

Or the old saying that an expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less.

EWRATC · Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:33 pm

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 19):

I guess I missed you at work today. So now gound control is class bravo airspace, your sharp. Dont pop off about things you have no clue about. What would you tell DLH mr ground controller. Pck up the aim before you post and put blame on pilots or controllers that you know nothing about let alone the operation at EWR or any airport.

Lostmoon744 · Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:34 pm

A little Gorilla Glue will make everything better for LH and CO. Can someone say, "DOH!"?

alert

777-500er · Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:43 pm

LH 747-400 involved was D-ABVC

APFPilot1985 · Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:52 pm

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 19):
Last time I checked it was the job of the ground controller to safely lead a aircraft to a gate without incident at a Class "B" controlled airport. And its not in the AIM its common sense.

AIM 4-3-18 :

b. ATC clearances or instructions pertaining to taxiing are predicated on known traffic and known physical airport conditions. Therefore, it is important that pilots clearly understand the clearance or instruction. Although an ATC clearance is issued for taxiing purposes, when operating in accordance with the CFRs, it is the responsibility of the pilot to avoid collision with other aircraft. Since "the pilot-in-command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft" the pilot should obtain clarification of any clearance or instruction which is not understood.

emphasis mine.

hamster · Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:05 pm

I like EWR. I sit at a corner bar on Ferry Street just before the big brick factory and see planes landing all the time. Last week, I had an appointment in Newark and went to the airport and parked my car took the monorail and had a few beers at terminal B at a bar next to the restarunt area.

If something is under tow isnt the tow operator responsible?

B777ER · Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:12 pm

This being a.net, I can't wait for the first idiot to get on here saying EWRATC "does not know what he is talking about"! biggrin

jasond · Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:20 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 6):
Expert.......by definition is a former spert.

Also:

Ex being a has been and spert being a drip under pressure

Boeing747_600 · Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:46 pm

Quoting Airzim (Reply 3):
but the captain informed us a LH 744 taxied past a CO 757 and took of the winglet on the 757.

Do you mean the winglet on the 744?! The 75x dosent have winglets.

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 18):
Actually it is the job of LH pilots to follow the instructions of the EWR tower

Utter nonsense - the pilot ALWAYS has discretion over the guidance of the aircraft at ALL times in the air and on the ground - he should have realised an unsafe situation and reacted accordingly.

goboeing · Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:50 pm

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 29):
The 75x dosent have winglets.

Want utter nonsense?

Mutter that statement after visiting EWR.

B777ER · Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:56 pm

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 29):
The 75x dosent have winglets.

Ummmmm, hate to tell ya but CO does have them on their 75's..

B777ER · Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:02 pm

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 29):
The 75x dosent have winglets

Sorry, forgot to add the evidence.

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Photo © Jid Webb

RiddlePilot215 · Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:21 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 6):
Once again right on top of their game combining 2 events into 1 and wanting to be taken seriously......I am very surprised they haven't turned this into a terrorist event yet in the metro NY area and have numerous former FBI and aviation experts commenting. ill

Expert.......by definition is a former spert.

If you go by CNN's definition as of late, anybody with some 'aviation experience' will do.

I remember when that G5 with all the Nike execs. was having gear trouble, they had some private, instrument rated pilot, that flew single engine 172's, and 206's as the "aviation authority". The woman reporter than showed a schematic of the G5's ridiculously complex gear system, and asked the guy to tell the "general audience" what it all meant. The told the woman that he had never flown a complex aircraft before, he didn't even know the schematics outside of the fuel and prop systems of his Stationair.....Yet the woman still wanted him to give his "expert opinion" on what the problem might have been.

Gotta love our American reporters. Reporting the truth, as cluelessly as possible.

Mir · Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:44 pm

Where exactly on the airport did this happen? That might say something about the situation.

I'd tend to think that the hammer will come down on the LH crew. They were moving, and they hit the CO plane. Though whoever was taxiing the CO plane probably won't be doing that for a week or so while they figure out what happened.

-Mir

glydrflyr · Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:46 pm

The coffee shop at the Ramada Inn at EWR is full of the LH passengers this morning, so that's where they are, waiting for substitute travel arrangements.

bolu340 · Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:48 pm

Correct a/c registration D-ABVY.

MCIGuy · Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:20 pm

Fox just reported it with footage a few minutes ago, and the taxiway landing as a seperate incident. Smile

DABZF · Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:31 pm

It's great how a.net is full of people who knows everything...
What if you would all just wait for the investigation result or any further info what actually happen before blaming either LH or CO or the ATC!

philb · Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:40 pm

Totally agree DABZF.

Did the aircraft following instructions? Were they on their respective centre lines? If instructions were followed, were the instructions within operating procedures.

From the little known, ANY ONE of the parties involved could be at fault - and even more than one.

At this stage condemning the Lufthansa crew for "hitting" the other aircraft is crazy.

Beaucaire · Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:27 pm

On a German pilot-forum one LH captain indicates the incident actually happened during push-back...
So if the driver of the pusher did not watch carefully,it could have happened the 747 hit the 757 incidentally.Not a confirmed statement - but this forum seems a rather closed ,pilot's forum not accessible to the great public.
Much too early to pont the finge in any direction at this moment though...

IAHFLYR · Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:35 pm

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 14):

Hey Pal, Happy A.net Birthday......you're still a savy and well oiled machine and are right on the money with your post regarding responsibility.

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 13):
Wow, intresting stuff. If anything it will be ATC's fault for not realizing the dimensions of the taxiways. Most likely this was there fault and not the one of the LH pilots or the CO crew.

I don't want you as my future airline pilot.

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 18):
Actually it is the job of LH pilots to follow the instructions of the EWR tower, it is the job of tower to know the dimensions of the taxiways and the relative lenghts of two given airplanes. You red light scenario works if it is like a "Cross" intersection however we are talking about two airplanes side to side.

Its like your in your car and a friend says all clear to pass another car without taking into account the dimensions of your side-view mirror. So you as a driver think its clear till your side view mirror donks off the other car's side-view mirror. This situatuion works because the mirror adds two or three more inches of clearance and if you are not paying attention or think it is all clear especially because you are focusing ahead of you its the fault of the controlling office for not doing the math.

What does the length of an airplane have to do with a side by side passing? I hear the recess bell.

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 19):
Last time I checked it was the job of the ground controller to safely lead a aircraft to a gate without incident at a Class "B" controlled airport. And its not in the AIM its common sense

Gezz, where to we come up with these wild ideas and stories.....ground control at large metro airports issues clearances to get the aircraft to the ramp, then the ramp controllers who most often are employees of the major airline at that airport issue instructions to maneuver the aircraft toward the gate letting the Captain steer the craft with the assistance of ground personnel into the gate area, stopping when instructed to by those ground persons. Class B huh, why not look up what Class B is and how it does not relate to ground control. Love to be inside that mind for sure and see how it works. Smile

Quoting B777ER (Reply 27):
This being a.net, I can't wait for the first idiot to get on here saying EWRATC "does not know what he is talking about

I don't think EWRATC has a clue.......hahaha Kidding!! crackup

thepilot730 · Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:54 pm

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 18):
Actually it is the job of LH pilots to follow the instructions of the EWR tower, it is the job of tower to know the dimensions of the taxiways and the relative lenghts of two given airplanes. You red light scenario works if it is like a "Cross" intersection however we are talking about two airplanes side to side.

Its like your in your car and a friend says all clear to pass another car without taking into account the dimensions of your side-view mirror. So you as a driver think its clear till your side view mirror donks off the other car's side-view mirror. This situatuion works because the mirror adds two or three more inches of clearance and if you are not paying attention or think it is all clear especially because you are focusing ahead of you its the fault of the controlling office for not doing the math.

And you fly at DCA. Hasn't your instructor made you read 91.3: Pilot in Command. It is the PIC who is responsible for that A/C and can deviate from ANY instructors and can break any FAR if he/she is in an emergency or if given instructions by ATC that can cause problems.

You fly out of CRG so this will happen to you. CRG's Tower has cleared me for takeoff numerous times with a plane on very short final. Are you going to takeoff when CRG's tower clears you with a plane on very short final?

Read your FARs, especially 91.3.

CPHGuard · Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:14 pm

I agree, that it's the pilot's responsibility to avoid a ground collision, BUT:

It is extremely difficult to judge how much clearence there is between two aircraft. The wings are behind the pilots, so it's not easy to see.

Thats one of the reasons we have ATC to guide the planes on the ground.

There should be pointed no fingers at anybody yet. It could be an ATC mistake, it could be the CO aircraft that wasn't positioned in the correct spot, and it could be the LH that was off the centerline.

So let's wait for the investigation to show what happened.

Good thing here is, that noone was injured. A winglet can be fixed.

Regards
Thomas

gopal · Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:38 pm

How would the LH captain known that he clipped the 757 ? Is there an indicator in the cockpit that would have warned him. Had he been unaware and proceeded to take-off, he could still have taken off without problems, correct ? A mere clipping would not damage the critical flight systems , would it ?

CPHGuard · Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:07 am

Quoting Gopal (Reply 44):
A mere clipping would not damage the critical flight systems , would it ?

A damaged wing will have less lift, which depending on the the damage can be very serious.

I remember an accident, when a plane clipped a wing, and the captain didn't notice.
It resulted in a crash on takeoff.

Quoting Gopal (Reply 44):
How would the LH captain known that he clipped the 757 ?

Either he felt the aircraft shake, the ATC could have seen it, or the CO tug-driver coulf have seen it, and informed ATC.

bongo · Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting LouA340 (Reply 15):
So whats the situation on the LH744? I guess it will be staying at EWR until the techs take a look at it.

I think there aren´t more options

hamster · Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:37 am

do we have pic of the damage?

BAtriple7 · Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting Gopal (Reply 44):
How would the LH captain known that he clipped the 757 ?

Ask that to any reporter covering aviation. The LH captain saw the fireball in his rear-view mirror!

Qatara340 · Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:08 am

Guys, is this incident differnet than the Contenental plane landing on the wronge runway. I was thinking that it landed on the wrong runway and clipped a LH plane. OR are these 2 separated occasions?

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