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Kevin777
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SAS Long Haul Expansion

Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:58 pm

Hey everyone!

This topic has been discussed before, but it's more than a year ago now, and things have certainly changed for SAS in that time - therefore I think it's interesting to bring up the topic again, especially now when SAS has announced that they're ready for long-haul expansion, maybe going for the 787.

Anyways, SAS currently has the followong long-haul with 333/343:

From CPH: EWR, WAS, ORD, SEA, BKK, BJS, PVG, NRT. All 6-7x weekly; some modest cutbacks during winter though.

From ARN: EWR, ORD daily. BJS from 2007 (3-4 weekly IIRC, gonna effect capacity out of CPH).

Likely expansions IMO:

From CPH:

KIX - SAS is strong in Japan, and used to fly to Osaka as an extension of the NRT flight. Also to take up the fight against AY. Could most likely support daily operation.

SFO - Was so close, but then came 9-11. The SEA route is doing well for pax originating in SEA AFAIK, so cannibalizing would be limited. Could prove difficult in wintertime though; maybe daily in summer and 3-4 weekly in winter.

JNB - they did talk about it (along with talking about Baghdad though....) a few years back. SAA was so close back in 2002 (IIRC) with three 747s a week, but pulled out in the last minute. Growing market. Could be hard in the summer, but that's just what SAS needs, actually, no problem.

HKG - they operated it some years ago. Finnair is having success on the route, and the region is booming. Could also be flown to Guangzhou. 5-7 weekly.

NGO - for many of the same reasons as KIX. 3-4 weekly.

SIN - SQ only has 3x weekly on a 777 since SK discontinued the BKK-SIN leg. 3-4 times weekly.

From ARN:

BJS going daily

PVG 3-4 weekly

KIX 4-6 weekly

Basically to take up the fight against AY. NRT would be ideal, but doubt that they'll give up CPH slots for that.

What do you guys think..>?????

Kevin777  Smile
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bjornstrom
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:01 pm

Interesting destinations:

North America:
SFO
BOS
MIA

Asia:
TPE (only Star Alliance carrier doing Europe - Taiwan)
KIX
HKG
DXB (beat EK to it?)

I've heard that the BKK-SIN leg using LX is doing very poorly. Talked to the SK crew on Orchard Road in SIN recently about it.
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kiwiandrew

RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:19 pm

Quoting Kevin777 (Thread starter):
especially now when SAS has announced that they're ready for long-haul expansion, maybe going for the 787.

do you have a source for that ? it doesn't seem that long ago that SK were talking about dropping out of longhaul altogether
 
Kevin777
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:24 pm

Quoting Bjornstrom (Reply 1):
BOS
MIA

Interesting... Actually, these two routes go well combined season-wise: BOS tops in the summer, MIA in the winter. Heard rumors about SAS thinking about bulk-sales of seats to tour operators to MIA, but don't think they've gone further ahead.

Quoting Bjornstrom (Reply 1):
TPE (only Star Alliance carrier doing Europe - Taiwan)

Hmm... I'm just wondering, the route can't be that good if not even LH is serving it, even though they would be the obvious Star member to go first.

Quoting Bjornstrom (Reply 1):
DXB (beat EK to it?)

Think that ship has sailed... CPH has announced "a new intercon service soon", guess it's EK/DXB.. But anyways, it would only work with EK codeshare, and I think EK would rather do it themselves.. They also have the cost advantage

Quoting Bjornstrom (Reply 1):
I've heard that the BKK-SIN leg using LX is doing very poorly. Talked to the SK crew on Orchard Road in SIN recently about it.

Not surprised, probably also because there often would be delays. You talked to SK crew in SIN? Are they also working on the LX flight or?

Kevin777
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Kevin777
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:27 pm

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 2):
do you have a source for that ? it doesn't seem that long ago that SK were talking about dropping out of longhaul altogether

Sorry, don't have the exact source right here.. But it was mentioned on a.net a few weeks ago (the part about the 787 expansion). SAS was talking about shutting down long-haul altogether because costs were so high - their yields on long-haul are excellent, but costs have always been the problem. Now, costs have come considerably under control, although AFAIK not yet as much in long haul as the rest. That is why they eye the expansion.

Kevin777
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kiwiandrew

RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:35 pm

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 4):
Sorry, don't have the exact source right here.. But it was mentioned on a.net a few weeks ago (the part about the 787 expansion). SAS was talking about shutting down long-haul altogether because costs were so high - their yields on long-haul are excellent, but costs have always been the problem. Now, costs have come considerably under control,

well that is good news , though I am not too sure which destinations I could see happening for them : KIX/NGO both suffer from lower yields than NRT ;HKG is a OW hub ; TPE would probably piss off the PRC and considering SKs existing flights to PVG/BJS are pretty important to them I cannot see them doing that when they can make a less controversial connection over BKK with their oldest partner TG ; SFO is interesting , a Star Hub but really from SKs perspective only offering onward connections to HNL/LAX/AKL it would probably need to stand on its own O&D traffic and it is already reasonably well connected over ORD/IAD/FRA/MUC/SEA

It would be nice to see them keep their longhaul , although I have never flown SK I have a soft spot for them as an underdog
 
Kevin777
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:49 pm

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 5):
KIX/NGO both suffer from lower yields than NRT ;

But NRT enjoys very good yields, so being worse that NRT can still be good

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 5):
HKG is a OW hub

Yeah, but CO and DL also fly into Star-CPH... And SK code-shares with QF

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 5):
TPE would probably piss off the PRC and considering SKs existing flights to PVG/BJS are pretty important to them

Good point, hadn't thought about that. But again, doubt that TPE is dense enough for SK, regardless of political issues.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 5):
I have never flown SK I have a soft spot for them as an underdog

Have a soft spot for them, but don't regard them as an underdog - they're really on a sound rebound, both short and long haul. Btw, SK didn't go bankrupt, Sabena did...  duck   Wink

Kevin777
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
 
Oykie
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:53 pm

SAS is talking about expansion and they had people in Canada to look two Air Canada A340 to see if they could use it. I don't know the outcome of this. Anyone have any updates on this?

If SAS does expand they would need more airplanes before the 787 or A350 is available. I am curious to how they will get airplanes as an interim solution. SAS usually doesn't have their widebody fleet for a long time and I could see them opt for either A350 or 787 in the 2012-2015 time frame.
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sk909
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:54 pm

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 4):
Sorry, don't have the exact source right here.. But it was mentioned on a.net a few weeks ago (the part about the 787 expansion). SAS was talking about shutting down long-haul altogether because costs were so high - their yields on long-haul are excellent, but costs have always been the problem. Now, costs have come considerably under control, although AFAIK not yet as much in long haul as the rest. That is why they eye the expansion.

SK has not mentioned anything about expansion of long haul flights. At least not recently. They had plans for expansion before 9/11, but after that they have dropped all plans. It is though thrue that SK has been able to reduce costs.
What has been in pipeline, is for AY to take over SK long haul division. SK is very much trying to pressure the employees, to further lower the costs. Though I would find it not likely for SK to hand over their long haul division.

Although I would love to see SK expand. I would love to see SK expand to these destinations:
MIA / Orlando
SFO
DXB
KIX
HKG

Maybe destinations:
DEL
Mumbai
LAX
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kiwiandrew

RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:56 pm

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 6):
And SK code-shares with QF

do they actually codeshare ( and if so on what routes ?) I thought they just had an FF programme relationship

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 6):
Btw, SK didn't go bankrupt, Sabena did...

no need to  duck  -I currently live in Belgium , but I am not actually Belgian .
( and in any case also every Belgian I have spoken to on the subject has said 'good riddance' - the current SN ( or whatever it will be called from Tuesday !) seems to be doing a much better job
 
Kevin777
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:07 pm

Quoting SK909 (Reply 8):
What has been in pipeline, is for AY to take over SK long haul division. SK is very much trying to pressure the employees, to further lower the costs. Though I would find it not likely for SK to hand over their long haul division.

As you point out, this won't happen in a million years. The problem is that the SK employees know this, and therefore they aren't too afraid of the "thread" of leaving long-haul to AY.

Quoting SK909 (Reply 8):
DEL
Mumbai
LAX

They used to fly to DEL until 2002 IIRC, however, the route was loss-making. In addition to this, they flew the route in the time of a restrictive UK-India bilateral, which meant they had a lot of 6th freedom traffic from the UK. This is not the case anymore. Therefore, I'd be surprised to see SK on DEL - but I'm also surprised that AY started on HEL-DEL.

Mumbai: Not gonna happen (although I'd personally love it!  Smile ). FAR too competitive, and it's only getting worse with the new Indian kids on the block (9W, IT) as well as EK, QR and EY.

LAX: Don't think so. SFO would be first in line by far IMO.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 9):
do they actually codeshare ( and if so on what routes ?) I thought they just had an FF programme relationship

Okay, maybe it's not a real code-share then (thought so) but at least they have an extensive relationship with QF.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 9):
( and in any case also every Belgian I have spoken to on the subject has said 'good riddance' - the current SN ( or whatever it will be called from Tuesday !) seems to be doing a much better job

Excited to see what the new airline will be called! And yes, SN has also come a long way. And they give one hell of an inflight service on short routes! Not something you see every day in Europe!

Kevin777
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
 
sk909
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:20 pm

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 10):
They used to fly to DEL until 2002 IIRC, however, the route was loss-making.

Yes, but with the current reduction in costs, they might actually try again. They had a very good reputation when they flew on DEL.

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 10):
Therefore, I'd be surprised to see SK on DEL - but I'm also surprised that AY started on HEL-DEL.

Excactly. There is too much competition from AY, to not do it. AY is eating away on SK long haul.

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 10):
Mumbai: Not gonna happen (although I'd personally love it! Smile ).

For the same reason. None of the low cost from India will ever fly to CPH, and there is soo much business in Mumbai from danish companies, to not consider it. Although you are right. There is a massive competition on the Mumbai-Europe routes.

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 10):
LAX: Don't think so. SFO would be first in line by far IMO.

That is why I put it on the maybe list.  Silly
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Kevin777
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:35 pm

Quoting SK909 (Reply 11):
AY is eating away on SK long haul.

And we must stop it...!  Smile Anyways I don't think opening on DEL would do it - expanding in the Far East would more likely do the trick.

Quoting SK909 (Reply 11):
None of the low cost from India will ever fly to CPH

Well, maybe not, but that doesn't necessarily make it viable for SK. They (Asian/ME carriers) would have the cost advantage, and although a direct service is preferred of course if you're going CPH-BOM, with all the capacity in the Middle East and India they would lure pax via their hubs at any price. Btw, I could - some years down the line - see an Indian airline serving CPH 4-5 times weekly from BOM with a smaller a/c, say a 332, but only if BOM becomes a much better hub. No one would want to connect there now unless they really had to.

Kevin777
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bjornstrom
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:19 pm

I visit TPE reguraly being in the electronics-import business. I've tried several routings:

ARN-FRA-NRT-TPE (SK/NH/UA)
CPH-FRA-SIN-TPE (SQ)
CPH-LHR-HKG-TPE (CX)

If it would be possible to offer European Star Alliance members a possibility for a direct flight Europe - Taiwan im pretty sure that many would prefer it to NRT, ICN or SIN.

(Flights PVG/PEK-TPE are not allowed).
HKG-TPE is Oneworld only.

I've read that HKG-TPE is one of the worlds busiest routes, is that correct?
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bjornstrom
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:24 pm

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 3):
Not surprised, probably also because there often would be delays. You talked to SK crew in SIN? Are they also working on the LX flight or?

I talked to the SK office on Orchard Road - the LX flight does not have any SK people on it. I did not enjoy the LX A343 flight between SIN-BKK and next time I'll go SIN-CPH direct.
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coerj
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:43 pm

I dont understand why SAS doesn't start up intercontinental flights from OSLO. It is considered one of their "international hubs" and I believe they used to have flights. CO does outstanding to EWR, it just doesnt make sense to me why they wouldn't have atleast one flight. I always see tons of people connecting from CPH from EWR and BKK, it would do verry well.
 
Kevin777
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:02 am

Quoting Bjornstrom (Reply 13):
I've read that HKG-TPE is one of the worlds busiest routes, is that correct?

If not the busiest; because of the many relations between China and Taiwan, but no "official" recognition of this (don't know how to put this, not in to politics..) which means no flights to mainland China. It's predicted by Airbus to be an important A380 route (in 2035, Airbus...  Smile )

Quoting Bjornstrom (Reply 14):
I did not enjoy the LX A343 flight between SIN-BKK and next time I'll go SIN-CPH direct.

Another reason for SK to start on SIN before SQ beats 'em to it and adds frequencies... but again, if SQ can do it cheaper, SK can just codeshare, this would also give them power versus the employees

Quoting COERJ (Reply 15):
I dont understand why SAS doesn't start up intercontinental flights from OSLO. It is considered one of their "international hubs" and I believe they used to have flights. CO does outstanding to EWR, it just doesnt make sense to me why they wouldn't have atleast one flight. I always see tons of people connecting from CPH from EWR and BKK, it would do verry well.

Hmmmm... OSL "International Hub" for SK.. Norwegian, definitely, European, maybe, but that's it.. Various reasons; OSL is at a corner of Europe, the population is 600.000 people, SK already has two big hubs in CPH and ARN etc. The thing is, that maybe SK could have a single intercon flight from OSL, but it's too expensive just to have one long-haul a/c based their, let alone positioning in an a/c from CPH or ARN every time. Don't think we'll see OSL intercon on SAS for a long time. It's much better suited for i.e. CO.

Kevin777
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jfk777
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:50 am

Around 1980 SAS was going to fly to Miami. Finnair does in the winter, I wouod think Miami would work well for SAS with the vacation tarffic and those going to South America( 9/11 security issues shouldn't be bad for Danish people).
 
DYflyer
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:00 am

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 16):
OSL is at a corner of Europe

So is HEL and KEF. I don´t see this as a reason not to have long haul flights.

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 16):
the population is 600.000 people

Now you are only thinking of Oslo City. Taking into account the people who would have OSL as a primary airport i would say you can at least double that number. Also take into account that unless they are going to a larger European city most of the passengers from the rest of Norway are connecting in OSL. OSL actually has more passengers than ARN.

But i agree with you. Unless we see any change in direction from the new bosses at SK we are unlikely to see any SK long haul from OSL. There are a few routes i think would be profitable if you look at them individually, but i´m not sure it would fit in the SK system as a hole.
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Kevin777
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:12 am

Quoting DYflyer (Reply 18):
So is HEL and KEF. I don´t see this as a reason not to have long haul flights.

Apples and oranges. KEF is right between the US and Europe and has a competitive advantage here. HEL is at the northeast corner of Europe, perfect for Asian connections - and Finland has its own (major) airline, Norway doesn't. OSL is at a corner of Europe, but an "odd" corner that doesn't really have a competitive advantage as opposed to other corners.

Quoting DYflyer (Reply 18):
Now you are only thinking of Oslo City. Taking into account the people who would have OSL as a primary airport i would say you can at least double that number. Also take into account that unless they are going to a larger European city most of the passengers from the rest of Norway are connecting in OSL. OSL actually has more passengers than ARN.

Hey... didn't we have the same discussion a few weeks back??? Don't think we ever came to terms on this...!!  Smile

But I do think that OSL could support intercon routes - and it does (CO and PK for now) - but I don't think SAS is the right airline for these long-hauls.

Kevin777
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mk777
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:13 am

I guess CPH-DEL didn't do well because many Indians don't travel to scandinavia for holidays. They rather go to France, Germany, England, Italy, Spain. I am not sure how SAS connected from US destinations back in 2002, but i guess not a lot of Indians around EWR, IAD or ORD used that route.

However, SAS has better connections now from US to CPH, than AY to HEL. hence, if they do start DEL service, it might just do better than AY who only fly from JFK so far.

Maybe Denmark and other scandinavian countries need to sell their tourism to the Indian market. Lots of upcoming middle class would then vacation there which might make the direct route profitable this time around.
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Kevin777
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 20):
I am not sure how SAS connected from US destinations back in 2002, but i guess not a lot of Indians around EWR, IAD or ORD used that route.

Don't think so; the DEL flight was an evening departure, and planes from the US came in the morning or midday - the almost "classic" problem of connecting between the US and India without either long transfer times in Europe or terrible arrival times in India.

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 20):
However, SAS has better connections now from US to CPH, than AY to HEL. hence, if they do start DEL service, it might just do better than AY who only fly from JFK so far.

Again, AY's new DEL route is not targeted at the JFK/US market at all, at least for now. Connecting times are horrible; 5 and 8 hrs in HEL, respectively; most other EU carriers could do better.

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 20):
Maybe Denmark and other scandinavian countries need to sell their tourism to the Indian market. Lots of upcoming middle class would then vacation there which might make the direct route profitable this time around.

SAS has been doing a lot of this in China and Japan in close cooperation with the Danish Tourism Board. And with huge success AFAIK. But India is still a different story - Denmark is the third or fourth place you visit in Europe, and most middle class Indians have yet to have their first trip to Europe.

Kevin777
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flybynight
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:42 am

I doubt SFO would be on tap, since it could take away from SEA. Maybe LAX or Minneapolis.
I really think SK needs to get the EWR - OSL flight back. It is shame for SK not to fly directly to Oslo from the US.

I think MIA would be an excellent choice.
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Kevin777
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:53 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 17):
Around 1980 SAS was going to fly to Miami. Finnair does in the winter, I wouod think Miami would work well for SAS

MIA could be interesting - but I don't think a maybe-flight in 1980 should make any basis for such a decision!  Smile

Quoting Flybynight (Reply 22):
I doubt SFO would be on tap, since it could take away from SEA. Maybe LAX or Minneapolis.

Eh.... LAX wouldn't tap from SEA?? And ORD for that matter??? MSP??? What on earth would they be doing in that NW-fortress?? As pointed out in another thread (don't remember which, sorry) the VFR market between Scandinavia and MSP is overrated, it's 3rd or 4th generation now.

Quoting Flybynight (Reply 22):
I really think SK needs to get the EWR - OSL flight back. It is shame for SK not to fly directly to Oslo from the US.

I get very emotional when it comes to aviation too!!  Smile Especially intercon routes with my national carrier. But in these days routes must be based on economics, not national pride.

Kevin777
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baw716
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:02 am

Well, first it's very good news indeed to hear that SK is starting to turn things around. SAS has always been one of my favorites and here in Seattle, they pretty much own the local Scandinavian market (which is HUGE here). For a long time, SEA-CPH was one of SK's most profitable routes (don't know that status now), but I've heard the load factor hovers in the low 80% year round.

I was in SFO when the SK discussion was had about the SFO-CPH route. SFO would make better sense than LAX, since UA would be able to feed them there from their largest hub on the west coast. SFO would not pull traffic off the SEA flight, since most of the SEA traffic comes from SEA, western Canada and Oregon (principally Portland).

However, my question is where will they get the aircraft to fly these additional routes? As I recall, I think they were at near maximum capacity with the fleet they had? In any case, one of the things I hope they have resolved is some of the inflight problems I have heard about (and posted on a.net). I have a lot of sentimental attachment to SAS (a lot of "Firsts" for me personally), so seeing them do better is certainly very good news indeed.

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Someone83
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:13 am

Quoting Baw716 (Reply 24):
However, my question is where will they get the aircraft to fly these additional routes

That's the "milion dollar" question  Wink

Until they get more airplanes won't they be able to expand on IC routes
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:07 am

I am still missing SYD as a destination on that list!  Wink  cloudnine 
 
kaitak
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 12):
Quoting SK909 (Reply 11):
AY is eating away on SK long haul.

And we must stop it...! Anyways I don't think opening on DEL would do it - expanding in the Far East would more likely do the trick.

Maybe the starting point is: what does AY do that SK doesn't/can't? Finland (Finland, Finland ... that's the the country where I'd like to be ...) has a country of 5-6m, yet it's airline has a very good network in Japan, China, SE Asia and now, India. Why has SK not done so well, particularly given that SK's links go back about fifty years? What went wrong? Is it costs, compared to AY. I know that one of the problems of SK on short haul route is that, not helped by fleet diversity. However, surely SK's long haul could be made to work?

I don't want to get into the issue of where I'd like to see SK fly or what kind of aircraft I'd like to see it fly, because it seems that the last thing SK needs now is a new aircraft type. CPH is a very attractive hub (in my experience) - thoroughly civilised and friendly, has extensive European links, is partnered with major EU airlines through STAR; where is the problem?
 
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Vio
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:42 am

That's interesting.

I've never flown on SAS and I wonder how they're like. I have a flight booked with them from SEA-HEL (via CPH). It should be good.  Smile
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AirPacific747
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:12 am

Quoting Vio (Reply 28):
That's interesting.

I've never flown on SAS and I wonder how they're like. I have a flight booked with them from SEA-HEL (via CPH). It should be good

You should spend a weekend in CPH as well. It's a nice place Big grin
 
UpperDeck79
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:18 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 17):
Finnair does in the winter,

AY does not fly to MIA anymore, not even in the winter and no charter flights either.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 17):
and those going to South America( 9/11 security issues shouldn't be bad for Danish people).

Even with Visa-waiver, it's pretty annoying and time consuming...
AY and ANA rock!
 
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flybynight
Posts: 1535
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 23):
Eh.... LAX wouldn't tap from SEA?? And ORD for that matter??? MSP??? What on earth would they be doing in that NW-fortress?? As pointed out in another thread (don't remember which, sorry) the VFR market between Scandinavia and MSP is overrated, it's 3rd or 4th generation now.

It would tap it, but probably less so than SFO. I really think SK is OK with the West Coast of the US market with their SEA flight.
As for MSP, you might be right, but I don't see ORD taking away from the SEA flight. Now EWR and Washington DC seems a little strange to me, but I guess it is working for SK. Maybe because of the Star Alliance connection with UA?
I'll stick with MIA being the best choice for another US city for SK.

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 23):
I get very emotional when it comes to aviation too!! Especially intercon routes with my national carrier. But in these days routes must be based on economics, not national pride.

C'mon, they can make a profit if done correctly. Maybe start with three flights a week. CO seems to be doing OK with EWR-SEA. This can't be helping SK, esp since CO doesn't have a Star Alliance connection.
Heia Norge!
 
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Vio
Posts: 1596
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:32 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 29):
You should spend a weekend in CPH as well. It's a nice place

You know... I may just do that. My friend Chris is from Denmark and he's in Canada now, but I could stay with his brother for a bit. I'd love to see it, cause I've never been there before.  Smile
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
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centrair
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:07 am

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 5):
KIX/NGO both suffer from lower yields than NRT

NRT high Yield
NGO medium-high Yield (Lots of Tech companies and large manufacture: Toyota, Daihatsu, Mitsubishi Heavy, Fuji Heavy, Kawasaki Heavy, Suzuki, Sanyo Energy Research plus more and more)
KIX Low Yield.

AY is doing well with NGO because it has a contract with Toyota to feed to a plant in Russia or someplace like that. They also have a contract for tech firms working in the Mobile industry.

NGO also has lower operating costs than KIX making it more profitable than KIX. The most important thing about NGO is what is in the belly. NGO has an amazing cargo facility and feeds much of the nation 24 hours a day (NRT can't do that in its dreams).

We have been attracting business people who must travel to different parts of the nation and need a base to work out of. NGO offers more NH domestic connections and is in between Osaka (1.5 hours) and Tokyo (2 hours). When you stand outside international arrivals you see...suit...suit...suit...suit...suit and a few casual business (especially or long-haul arrivals...short haul is mixed).
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
walter747
Posts: 1379
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:08 am

will SAS come to BOS?
Hussel, Hussel, Husel, Grind, Grind, Grind
 
ARGinLON
Posts: 550
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:26 pm

RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:17 am

Quoting COERJ (Reply 15):
CO does outstanding to EWR

Do you refer to LF or profits?
 
Legallykev
Posts: 87
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:48 am

Would SAS ever plan on expanding in YYZ or Canada in general?
 
coerj
Posts: 216
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:29 am

Quoting ARGinLON (Reply 35):
Do you refer to LF or profits?

I'm not sure how the profits are on this route but the load factors are outstanding, specifically in the summer
 
FXMD11
Posts: 172
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 1:34 pm

RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:47 pm

Quoting Bjornstrom (Reply 13):
If it would be possible to offer European Star Alliance members a possibility for a direct flight Europe - Taiwan im pretty sure that many would prefer it to NRT, ICN or SIN.

I am quite sure that Thai's Service ex ARN via BKK to TPE is a good option as their schedule looks pretty good. TG is Star too and offers great service.
 
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flybynight
Posts: 1535
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:39 pm

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 34):
will SAS come to BOS?

Probably not since they serve DC and NYC already.

Quoting Legallykev (Reply 36):
Would SAS ever plan on expanding in YYZ or Canada in general?

I think YYZ might be a match. I think Vancouver would be too close to SEA.

[Edited 2006-11-06 06:40:43]
Heia Norge!
 
Kevin777
Topic Author
Posts: 951
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RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:37 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 26):
I am still missing SYD as a destination on that list!

Well, actually, if it wasn't for all the new 6th freedom capacity (EK etc.) in that market, this could actually work. The GM for SK in Australia said in an interview in the spring that they've got so much Aus-traffic on SK's Asian flights that the CPH-BKK flight actually could fly BKK-SYD!! But apart from operational issues (this would easily require one more a/c, possibly more), the competition is too fierce. Would be so cool though!!!  Smile

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 27):
Why has SK not done so well, particularly given that SK's links go back about fifty years? What went wrong? Is it costs, compared to AY

Exactly. It's costs. SAS has always enjoyed excellent yields - and still does - but costs have always been the problem.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 27):
I know that one of the problems of SK on short haul route is that, not helped by fleet diversity.

Yep, and can't help thinking same-ol'-story when I hear that SAS has been considering the 787 for the future

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 29):
You should spend a weekend in CPH as well. It's a nice place

It most certainly is!!!! And might I add: CPH is one heck of an airport! There's nothing like returning to CPH - and unlike many other airports, at CPH departing and arriving pax share the same areas, so there is that "travel buzz"..  Smile

Quoting Flybynight (Reply 31):
but I don't see ORD taking away from the SEA flight

Well, probably not much, but when you search for tickets to i.e. SFO, LAS or LAX, it seems like the two (ORD and SEA) are somewhat "interchangeable" as the point of transfer.

Quoting Flybynight (Reply 31):
Now EWR and Washington DC seems a little strange to me, but I guess it is working for SK. Maybe because of the Star Alliance connection with UA?
I'll stick with MIA being the best choice for another US city for SK.

EWR??? You serius  Confused  Confused NYC is like the THE first place for, well, any intercon airline!! O & D is HUGE, and both business and leisure keeps up the good business. DC? Well, I guess SK was tired of sending half the EWR flight on to WAS. They opened WAS at the same time they closed the 2nd daily EWR (but it was around 9-11, so difficult to tell exactly). Agree that MIA is interesting - especially because it's a winter destination, and SAS needs those to even out capacity demand throughout the year. Problem though is, that MIA from CPH would be painfully leisure oriented.

Quoting Flybynight (Reply 31):
C'mon, they can make a profit if done correctly. Maybe start with three flights a week. CO seems to be doing OK with EWR-SEA

You mean EWR-CPH, right?!?!? The thing is, that SK long-haul as such from OSL can be profitable - but as you point out, we might be talking about 3-4 weekly. And that's the root of the problem; three times weekly would be a nightmare operationally.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 33):
KIX Low Yield.

AY is doing well with NGO because it has a contract with Toyota to feed to a plant in Russia or someplace like that. They also have a contract for tech firms working in the Mobile industry.

NGO also has lower operating costs than KIX making it more profitable than KIX. The most important thing about NGO is what is in the belly. NGO has an amazing cargo facility and feeds much of the nation 24 hours a day (NRT can't do that in its dreams).

Thanks for the interesting info on NGO/KIX. Guess NGO could be before KIX on the list; thought it would be the other way around. But definitely an extra Japan flight would do awesome!!

Quoting Legallykev (Reply 36):
Would SAS ever plan on expanding in YYZ or Canada in general?

Sometimes (every other year in recent years...) AC has sent a 5x weekly 767 for YYZ in the summer season (apr-oct or something). They marketed this heavily for connections to the US though, not just YYZ and Canada. Doubt that YYZ would become reality, although it would be cool...

Kevin777  Smile
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
 
ZKNBX
Posts: 440
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:24 pm

RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:00 pm

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 5):
KIX/NGO both suffer from lower yields than NRT

NZ has struggled with these routes, partly because NZ is a low yield destination; not necessarily true for Scandinavia. However, the point you make is worth noting.
 
UpperDeck79
Posts: 1062
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:14 pm

RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:44 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 33):
AY is doing well with NGO because it has a contract with Toyota to feed to a plant in Russia or someplace like that.

Yes, they even started an extra HEL-LED (St. Petersburg) afternoon flight on the days that NGO-HEL operates to connect the pax quickly to LED.
AY and ANA rock!
 
bjornstrom
Posts: 283
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:54 am

RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:26 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 26):
I am still missing SYD as a destination on that list!

If they could get their hands on those ex-AC A345's it would be a interesting route: CPH-SYD-AKL Big grin
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Carpethead
Posts: 2619
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:15 pm

RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:40 pm

Quoting Bjornstrom (Reply 13):
I've read that HKG-TPE is one of the worlds busiest routes, is that correct?

It could be the busiest int'l run in terms of passenger carried but the No.1 in pax is Tokyo-Sapporo.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 33):
NGO has an amazing cargo facility and feeds much of the nation 24 hours a day (NRT can't do that in its dreams).

For 24 hour ops you are correct, but ever check out how many cargo flights there are at NRT. NRT is #3 in the world in cargo handling amount after MEM & HKG.

For SAS to ever make KIX or NGO work, they would need something smaller than what they have now. An A332/787 to either ARN or CPH would most likely work.
SAS should have started ARN-NRT more than anything else when there were still some slots a few years ago. They have 14 slots on the long runway, so it would work if they can find 14 morning landing slots on the shorter runway.
 
Kevin777
Topic Author
Posts: 951
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:36 pm

RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:01 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 44):
For SAS to ever make KIX or NGO work, they would need something smaller than what they have now. An A332/787 to either ARN or CPH would most likely work.

Don't you think they could fill up a 343 on the route? I reckon they could, at least 5x weekly. Can't figure out whether it should go to CPH or ARN - I would say CPH because this is their main hub, but then again, AY is punching SK in ARN, so..

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 44):
SAS should have started ARN-NRT more than anything else when there were still some slots a few years ago. They have 14 slots on the long runway, so it would work if they can find 14 morning landing slots on the shorter runway.

Maybe true... but hindsight is 20/20!!! And back then they had a lot of other things on their mind than intercon route expansion... I'm sure that if slots were available at NRT ARN-NRT would be on the top of SK's long-haul christmas-wish list.

AY did just that for the doubling of flights to NRT recently; but not sure about teh technicalities. I think they're using some sort of modified 343 (don't qoute me for this..!) that can land on the shorter runway at NRT, and they got 4 slots there in addition to the four slots on the long.

Kevin777
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
 
UpperDeck79
Posts: 1062
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:14 pm

RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:16 pm

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 45):
I think they're using some sort of modified 343 (don't qoute me for this..!) that can land on the shorter runway at NRT,

Not a modified one, it's just a regular A340-311 (if you don't count the Santa  Wink) :


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Photo © Elizabeth

AY and ANA rock!
 
Kevin777
Topic Author
Posts: 951
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:36 pm

RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:19 pm

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 46):
Not a modified one, it's just a regular A340-311 (if you don't count the Santa ) :

So all their 343s can land at NRT's short rwy?? Do you know if SK's could?

Btw that picture is awesome, love it, it's been my screensaver for tha past week or so!

Kevin777
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
 
jlb
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 1:01 am

RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:44 pm

Quoting Bjornstrom (Reply 43):
Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 26):
I am still missing SYD as a destination on that list!

If they could get their hands on those ex-AC A345's it would be a interesting route: CPH-SYD-AKL

Yeah, it's always nice to dream. But someone already mentioned the cost problem at SAS. They would probably need to hire 200 cabin crew to do that rotation daily. Limiting the number of crew at out stations were, IIRC, one og the primary reasons they dropped the SIN tag.

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 19):
Now you are only thinking of Oslo City. Taking into account the people who would have OSL as a primary airport i would say you can at least double that number. Also take into account that unless they are going to a larger European city most of the passengers from the rest of Norway are connecting in OSL. OSL actually has more passengers than ARN.

I think we really got an interesting answer to the question of the comparative strength of CPH-ARN-OSL this year, when DL opened ATL-CPH and US PHL-ARN despite the competition from SK from CPH and ARN to the US, and despite the fact that neither of them have any feed at the scandinavian end. Why didn't these non-star carriers go to OSL if there is such a huge unserved market there.
 
UpperDeck79
Posts: 1062
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:14 pm

RE: SAS Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:48 pm

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 47):
So all their 343s can land at NRT's short rwy?? Do you know if SK's could?

I thought SK already does that...? But I have no info on it...

This is what Carpethead wrote about it in a previous thread:

Quoting Carpethead:
The shorter runway at NRT is only 2,180 meters. NRT has decided DC-10s, MD-11s, 773s, A346s, & 747s + soon A380 are not to be operated from that runway. In emergencies, (like longer runway shutting down) I have heard DC-10s, MD-11s, and 773s landing on it.
Therefore, I make the assumption, that with morning slots on the short runway still open, AY can double their frequencies into NRT with just a change in aircraft.

RE: First Widebody Airbus To AY (by Flying Belgian Feb 18 2006 in Civil Aviation)
AY and ANA rock!

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