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53Sqdn
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:05 am

The A380 may appear to be dying at this moment in time. Some say hurrah! A true supporter of aviation would see this as a (longer than expected) gliche in the program. The A380 will, turn out to be a true Phoenix in the world of Aviation. Please don't treat the cancellation by FE as the death knell for the 'Whalejet'. She's a beast. But what an addition to the aviation world.

The 747 is (at the moment) one of the best A/C out there. But, how long can you keep extending range, length and capabilities? There has to be a limit. From MPOV (I'm not predjudiced either way) the A380 is just another step on the ladder in the evolution of airborne transport. Just give it a chance. It may fail. Is this any reason for ridicule? Just remember though, if it does fail, it will still go into the history books as the largest passenger A/C (to date) to be built and flown. Shouldn't we all celebrate this achievement?

Maybe not (from certain quarters). Ah well! Said my bit.
 
mrcomet
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 36):
It looks like FX has a strategy change. They obviously don't need a VLA freighter otherwise the 747F would be their choice. The 777 is much smaller than the A380 or 747.

 checkmark 

Quoting Flaps (Reply 40):
The A380 is too large for all but a tiny fraction of FedEx markets.

 checkmark 

While I have been a vocal critic of the economics of the A380 as a passenger plane, it makes sense as a package carrier - long range, large physical capacity, etc.

This looks to be simply a move by FX to rethink its policy and not a general statement on the suitability of the A380. The 777F clearly better fits their developing needs without the investment in new infrastructure. FX didn't need as much capacity and the A380 timing is still up in the air.

There had to be compelling reasons to make the move and to cancel.

Analysts were quoted as saying Airbus was offering massive incentives to keep FX from canceling making the A380 very cheap indeed. Boeing is a lot less flexible in discounting planes. The article also mentions that the decline in A380Fs will mean parts prices will go way up and make it even more expensive to operate the A380.

FX can still buy it at any time in the future....it's not like those slots aren't going anywhere until the plane is in service.
The dude abides
 
FCKC
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:07 am

I do not see this T7F order as a replacement for the A380 order.Sooner or later they will need a larger plane such as the A380F or 747-8F.
Hope when the A380 programm will be on track in some more years to come , FX will reconsider this order.
I guess this T7F order is the beginning of the DC10/MD11 replacement phase.
Probably in some more years to come , Boeing will launch a T7 to F conversion programm , when the first T7s will be phased out of the main fleets around the world.Thus FX will purchase more to put an end to the DC10/MD11fs.
I also well see them to be launch customer when Airbus will beginn converted Pax A330s to A330Fs , when this type will be retired out of the fleets , being replaced by 787s.Thus they will have an A310/600F replacement.
 
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N328KF
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 52):
I do not see this T7F order as a replacement for the A380 order.Sooner or later they will need a larger plane such as the A380F or 747-8F.

If Boeing goes nuts on the concept of a BWB for military and freighter usage, this could be ideal for FX. Mind you, we're talking at least a decade away, perhaps more.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
sstsomeday
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting MrComet (Reply 51):
While I have been a vocal critic of the economics of the A380 as a passenger plane, it makes sense as a package carrier - long range, large physical capacity, etc.

This looks to be simply a move by FX to rethink its policy and not a general statement on the suitability of the A380. The 777F clearly better fits their developing needs without the investment in new infrastructure. FX didn't need as much capacity and the A380 timing is still up in the air.

The way I see it is:

The 777 offers more range than the 380, does it not?. FedEx says they want to fly more point-to-point to satisfy customers with faster delivery times, so FedEx wants to avoid the hub and spoke thing in certain instances and instead add point to point and FREQUENCY.

Also, I think they DO want to add capacity, but they are doing it with smaller frames that are greater in number.
I come in peace
 
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Stitch
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:00 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 52):
I do not see this T7F order as a replacement for the A380 order. Sooner or later they will need a larger plane such as the A380F or 747-8F.

I see it as an interim replacement order. I don't expect it to be a permanent one, however.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 53):
If Boeing goes nuts on the concept of a BWB for military and freighter usage, this could be ideal for FX.

If they could pressurize and heat it, the 747LCF would probably make a phenomenal package carrier.  Smile
 
slider
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:02 am

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 9):
The spectre of a programme cancellation for the A380F is now real,

I've read this about a dozen or more times in just this continuation of the original thread and totally disagree.

Europride is on the line. There's no way in hell they scuttle the program, even if it takes every cent out of EADS' coffers and more government aid.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 44):
Also, the 777F is a long distance package freighter option while the 748F is a medium range heavy lift aircraft.

The problem I saw with the A380F was that it could only bypass hubs with package freight, yet it was incredibly large, so the concept of filling the whole thing for a "point to point" express service didn't make that much sense to me.

The 777F is much smaller, so FedEx can connect major cities with a hub bypass and fill it efficiently. The 777F has 23k cu ft, the MD11 has 19k cu ft, the will have 748F has 30 cu ft and the A380F would have 40k cu ft.

The business case for flying the 777F point to point is just stronger as a package freighter due to size and efficiency just as the case is stronger for the 748F as a heavy lift freighter due to higher density, and again, this wasn't an option when FedEx signed for the A380F in the first place.

Probably the best factual "hands on" analysis of the issue...well put.
 
BrowntailWhale
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:36 am

You heard it HERE first! Look for UPS to cancel their A-380F order and instead become the launch customer for the A-330F. Fact is that Airbus has recently been aggressively trying to sell UPS around 50 A-330Fs. This would allow UPS to get out of the A-380 program, which it really didn't want in the first place, and to get new airframes sooner rather than later. UPS screwed around too long and would now be at the end of the line to get new 777Fs or 747-8Fs. The A-330Fs can be online the soonest and that is what UPS needs more than anything, lift NOW. As a sweetener, look for Airbus to throw in a package to reequip UPS' fleet of A-300Fs with updated flat panel displays, EFB and new FMCs.
 
osiris30
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 56):
Europride is on the line. There's no way in hell they scuttle the program, even if it takes every cent out of EADS' coffers and more government aid.

Even Airbus has said it's possible.. why do you doubt it?
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
jacobin777
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 54):
The 777 offers more range than the 380, does it not?. FedEx says they want to fly more point-to-point to satisfy customers with faster delivery times, so FedEx wants to avoid the hub and spoke thing in certain instances and instead add point to point and FREQUENCY.

Of note...here are some Airbus figures,etc....below are Boeings numbers..

"The A380F’s freighter variant grew out of consideration of future stretch and
long-range versions of the passenger aircraft, which would need a 590t maximum take-off weight instead of 560t for the current model."

"FedEx and UPS talk of payloads of 60-70t on the 9,250km routes between hubs such as Cologne and Hong Kong or Osaka and Memphis. So the A380F offers a doubling of both payload and cubic capacity – 1,080m3 (38,000ft3) compared with 540m3 for the MD-11."

"ILFC is also optimistic about the A380F. Not known for its huge freighter portfolio, the lessor has ordered five of the aircraft, although president John
Plueger says it has the option to switch these back to passenger orders. But he does not expect that to happen. “We get our first passenger A380
in spring 2007 and the first possible freighter in 2009. By the time they are
delivered, I am confident there will be market demand for them.”*

source:A380, Flight Group Special Rerport, 06/2005


"With a maximum takeoff weight of 766,000 pounds (347,450 kilograms), the 777 Freighter will have a revenue payload capability of 229,000 pounds ( 103.9 metric tons).

The 777 Freighter will be capable of flying 4,885 nautical miles (9,047 km) with a full payload and general cargo market densities, making it the world's longest-range freighter. The airplane's range capability will translate into significant savings for cargo operators: fewer stops and associated landing fees, less congestion at transfer hubs, lower cargo handling costs and shorter cargo delivery times.

The 777 Freighter will feature capacity never seen before on a twin-engine freighter, accommodating 27 standard pallets (96 in x 125 in; 2.5 m x 3 m) on the main deck. The industry-standard 10-foot-high (3.1 m) pallets will be accommodated by the large main deck cargo door that will make use of the airplane's volume capability. The lower cargo hold has the capacity for 10 pallets, as well as 600 cubic feet (17.0 cubic meters) of additional bulk cargo."**

**-source:Boeing.com

The comparative numbers are quite interesting... scratchchin 
"Up the Irons!"
 
ikramerica
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:47 am

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 54):
The 777 offers more range than the 380, does it not?. FedEx says they want to fly more point-to-point to satisfy customers with faster delivery times, so FedEx wants to avoid the hub and spoke thing in certain instances and instead add point to point and FREQUENCY.

Also, I think they DO want to add capacity, but they are doing it with smaller frames that are greater in number.

Zvezda changed his name and moved to Canada!

Seriously, this has been Boeing's argument for years now, and it was not just the rationale for the 787, but also for the launch of the 777F long range freighter.

Freight doesn't mind flights in the middle of the night or stopping for fuel, but people still want their express packages faster with more options about when they have to drop it off. If a 777F can bypass ANC and connect a major city to MEM (Tokyo, Soeul for example), it can offer a later drop off time for customers in those major cities (for additional costs, of course). There's no way the A380F could be justified economically in that role, as too much of each of those flights would have to be with non-premium packages, hurting the RATM (revenue per available ton mile, if that is even a term).

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 58):
Even Airbus has said it's possible.. why do you doubt it?

He's talking the whole A380, not the A380F. Airbus has never said they would consider canceling the A380 program. Or programme even!
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
sstsomeday
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 56):
Europride is on the line. There's no way in hell they scuttle the program, even if it takes every cent out of EADS' coffers and more government aid.

I agree Europe will not allow Airbus or the 380 program to fail, but I don't think it's about pride. I suggest that Europe simply cannot alow their position as an aerospace giant be marginalized, for industrial, intellectual, export, political and other reasons. EADS/Airbus is valuable to them, and not just as a matter of pride.
I come in peace
 
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glideslope
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 61):
EADS/Airbus is valuable to them, and not just as a matter of pride.

It's also of great interest to Russia.  dollarsign 
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
Lumberton
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting Browntailwhale (Reply 57):
Look for UPS to cancel their A-380F order and instead become the launch customer for the A-330F.

I thought that Aercap was in line to be the first?

Does anyone have any data on characteristics of an A330-200F? I have read that it can carry 64-65 tons, but how does that translate into cubic feet?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Curmudgeon
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:24 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 56):
Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 9):
The spectre of a programme cancellation for the A380F is now real,

I've read this about a dozen or more times in just this continuation of the original thread and totally disagree.

Europride is on the line. There's no way in hell they scuttle the program, even if it takes every cent out of EADS' coffers and more government aid.

Read it again, I was talking about the freighter only. Even the Airbus CFO has cast doubt on the remaining freighter orders. I doubt that even Airbus would continue with the freighter with an empty order book.

I agree that an entire A380 program (or programme  Wink)cancellation is not probable barring another catastrophic engineering issue or large order cancellation. I am also aware that Airbus does not behave in a perfectly rational manner because it is not entirely subject to the cold hard rules of the market place.
Jets are for kids
 
F4N
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting Browntailwhale (Reply 57):
This would allow UPS to get out of the A-380 program, which it really didn't want in the first place, and to get new airframes sooner

Begs the question then, why did they order it?
 
BrowntailWhale
Posts: 182
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:57 am

Quoting F4N (Reply 65):
F4N From United States, joined Mar 2000, 484 posts, RR: 1
Reply 65, posted Wed Nov 8 2006 22:43:41 UTC+1 (10 minutes 20 secs ago) and read 66 times:

Quoting Browntailwhale (Reply 57):
This would allow UPS to get out of the A-380 program, which it really didn't want in the first place, and to get new airframes sooner

Begs the question then, why did they order it?

Two reasons.

1. FedEx ordered it
2. To get out of the A-300 order without paying a penalty
 
BrowntailWhale
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:01 am

CHICAGO, Nov 8 (Reuters) - Package delivery company United Parcel Service
Inc. (UPS.N: Quote, Profile, Research) is in no rush to cancel its order of
10 A380s from Airbus (EAD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research), UPS' top executive
said on Wednesday.

"We are not pressed to make a decision," Chief Executive Officer Mike Eskew
said at a company investor conference that was Web cast.

Eskew said UPS has enough other planes scheduled for delivery over the next
two years to cover its immediate needs. "Our backs are not against the wall
on this issue," he said.

UPS has an option on another 10 A380s
 
F4N
Posts: 507
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:06 am

Quoting Browntailwhale (Reply 66):
Two reasons.

1. FedEx ordered it
2. To get out of the A-300 order without paying a penalty

Browntailwhale:

I suppose that I already guessed that, but I was curious to see if there was anything else. I have to wonder though, if A330F's are what UPS really needs, given that the rationale for the A380 order was to get out of a bunch of unwanted A306's. Are A330F's that much of an advance over the A306 in terms of range & payload?

Wouldn't the T7F be a better option? One would have to suspect Boeing would like nothing better than to supplant another A380F orrder with
something.

regards,

F4N
 
katekebo
Posts: 681
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:07 am

Quoting Browntailwhale (Reply 67):
CHICAGO, Nov 8 (Reuters) - Package delivery company United Parcel Service
Inc. (UPS.N: Quote, Profile, Research) is in no rush to cancel its order of
10 A380s from Airbus (EAD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research), UPS' top executive
said on Wednesday.

"We are not pressed to make a decision," Chief Executive Officer Mike Eskew
said at a company investor conference that was Web cast.

Eskew said UPS has enough other planes scheduled for delivery over the next
two years to cover its immediate needs. "Our backs are not against the wall
on this issue," he said.

UPS has an option on another 10 A380s

Read: We'll let Airbus do the next move and "milk the cow" - if the A380 gets delayed even further. we press for more compensation, if it gets cancelled all together, we demand even more compensation. It's pretty comfortable position for UPS (and uncomfortable for Airbus).
 
osiris30
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:14 am

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 69):
Read: We'll let Airbus do the next move and "milk the cow" - if the A380 gets delayed even further. we press for more compensation, if it gets cancelled all together, we demand even more compensation. It's pretty comfortable position for UPS (and uncomfortable for Airbus).

Pretty much.. not statements like 'firmly committed to' or 'eager to get our hands on', just: we're not pressed for time.

You summed it up pretty well.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
dank
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:29 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 45):
So why don't convert some 744s, or get MD-11s or something like that. The 777F is a long term investment for FX and since no additional 748Fs have been ordered it seems that they don't need a 748 or A380. But we'll see...

Umm, because they can get new 777Fs soon. They can't get new 744s or MD-11s. And conversions aren't going to give them the same capacity/range that they could out of a 777F.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 55):
I see it as an interim replacement order. I don't expect it to be a permanent one, however.

Yep. I could potentially see more 777Fs at some point, but I can also see them ordering 380Fs or 748Fs in the future depdning on how the programs shape up and performance comes out (i.e. does the 380F die an early death, etc.). Getting 777Fs now helps them out in the short term and allows them to feel things out before commiting to another type.

I still don't get how given the comments, it is more likely that the market changed hence the new orders than it is the fact that they can't get the 380F any time soon that drove them to changing their plans. Maybe they should have gotten some of those free 330s to tide them over  Wink.

Quoting F4N (Reply 65):
Begs the question then, why did they order it?

Because they already had deposits in to Airbus for 306Fs. They didn't want the 300s and the only other option at the time for freighter's from airbus was 380s, and they must have at the same time seen more of a business sense for them than 300s.

cheers.
 
pygmalion
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:53 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 45):
So why don't convert some 744s, or get MD-11s or something like that. The 777F is a long term investment for FX and since no additional 748Fs have been ordered it seems that they don't need a 748 or A380. But we'll see...

The 777F is a good long term investment. The 777 family has always had a high resale value, the 777F is no different. If, not when, FX decides to change lift strategies, there will be a good market for their used 777F aircraft. That is not as clear a case for the A380F. How many cargo airlines are looking for high volume, med density lift?? Not that many. Resale-wise the A380 is not that great.

I think low resale is one reason that BA never bought the Pax version of the A380. They normally fly newer aircraft and then sell them at 10-12 years and keep their maintenance costs low. The business case for the airplane has to include what you can get for it when you're done with it... and for BA, the business case didn't close.
 
Adria
Posts: 781
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:44 am

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 72):
The 777F is a good long term investment. The 777 family has always had a high resale value, the 777F is no different. If, not when, FX decides to change lift strategies, there will be a good market for their used 777F aircraft. That is not as clear a case for the A380F. How many cargo airlines are looking for high volume, med density lift?? Not that many. Resale-wise the A380 is not that great.

I think low resale is one reason that BA never bought the Pax version of the A380. They normally fly newer aircraft and then sell them at 10-12 years and keep their maintenance costs low. The business case for the airplane has to include what you can get for it when you're done with it... and for BA, the business case didn't close.

Well you cannot speculate on the A380s resale value and especially why BA didn't (yet!) choose the A380. I don't know where you got the impression that BA changes their fleet after 12 years because this is clearly not the case.

SQ is one of those airlines that replace their aircraft at an early stage and they seem to believe in the A380.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8886
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:40 am

Quoting F4N (Reply 68):
Are A330F's that much of an advance over the A306 in terms of range & payload?

Payload and range are secondary. The main question is tonne-mile costs.
 
N31029
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:23 pm

RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:50 pm

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 8):
I guess I don't like to be chided, even gently, for discussing the cancellation of a 10+ plane order. And I don't much like anyone telling me what to be exited about or What not to be exited about.

Hi Elvis777. A pleasure to make your acquaintance, as I have been reading your posts with interest for a long time prior to becoming a formal member of A.net myself a short time ago. Please accept my apologies if I in any way conveyed, in my post, the intent you describe above. It was not my purpose. Those who already know me understand my posts are unconditionally sincere, genuine attempts to portray issues and feelings from a positive, supportive position. By the way, I wholeheartedly agree with your first sentence above, and in fact, I will advance your cause by saying that "discussion" is "the" reason we are here! Also, please forgive me if you felt I in any way was assuming the position of instructing you in what you could or could not be excited about. I meant to do no such thing. In fact, I am often chuckling at the enthusiasm recorded on A.net, and, I respect others passions immensely.

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 8):
Also, why are we to agree that this aircraft is well designed? As a courtesy I am going to say it is, but doesn't the design of an aircraft encompass integration of electrical systems?

Perhaps, as someone who is not an engineer, my interpretation and definition of "engineering" is incorrect. I have always inherently believed it to be "design." The rationale is as follows (and this should help in understanding why I stated that the A380 was well-engineered): The design of the A380, from all information available to us today, indicates that the aircraft was indeed well-engineered. The failures encountered by the program, from my perspective, appear to be outside this realm. The engineering of the electrical systems was excellent. The coordination & integration of the subsystems was not. The engineering of the electrical systems was excellent. The production coordination and supervision was not. The engineering of the electrical systems was excellent. The project oversight and technical compatibility was not. I hope this further clarifies why my statement read as it did. I believe the problems encountered in A380 assembly are not engineering-related with respect to the airframe itself.

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 8):
In other words, what he is innocently promulgating can actually be construed as a loyalty letter. "If you don't sign it then you must be disloyal" which is to say that if I don't feel that the 380 is then I must not be a true AE!

My apologies appear necessary again, Elvis777, as this was not the purpose of this portion of my post. I was intending to convey a preference for looking at challenges, issues, and situations through positive eyes. Perhaps I allow my heart to enter into my writing too often. I just prefer to be optimistic and make allowances for others mistakes and imperfections, as I would hope others would do for me.

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 8):
And as an ardent AE I can be exited about anything under the skies that involves aviation -including but not limited to an order cancellation.

I would certainly never position myself to be so presumptuous as to define this for you - or anyone, Elvis777 - so indeed please continue to be yourself and we shall certainly remain A.net friends (even where and when we might disagree.) My point was intended to convey what I have learned about human relations, and that is, it is not customarily considered a positive attribute to celebrate the misfortune, hurt, injury, or failings of others.

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 8):
As far as the demise of the 380 a good or bad thing let me put forth this scenario:

You paint a compelling picture, Elvis777, of a "what if" scenario. I would counter only by saying that advances in almost every field of endeavor have been achieved only after much failure, ridicule and doubt. It is through vision - and a commitment to it - that great things are often accomplished. I am not in a position to know the scope of Airbus' motive behind the creation of the A380, however, I believe that to invest as it has there must have been a sincere and legitimate reason to do so. Living in the United States - as I believe you do as well - we enjoy a relatively compact geography and have demanded air travel solutions that seem to favor smaller aircraft types. I have tried not to limit my own thinking when it comes to understanding worldwide markets, capacities, and needs when it comes to differences in commercial transport requirements. This is where, in my opinion, Airbus has targeted its A380 product. As the world population grows, air travel becomes more and more economical, and new populations are exposed to the opportunity to fly, the concept of an A380 may indeed become more relevant than it would seem today (especially to us in the U.S.) I could very well be wrong about this as I have no special insights or knowledge, however, just as I trust that Boeing has focused on what it sees for the future - and is building its products accordingly - Airbus is doing the same. The unfortunate execution of the A380 in the assembly phase does not diminish the potential of its long-range business model for the jet (profitability uncertainty notwithstanding as the costly delay issues were not a planned-for event).

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 16):
People here are just trying to give recognition to the majority of the players who are competent, even if the team loses.

Hi Areopagus. Excellent to meet you. Thank you for an excellent interpretation of looking at the glass as being half full, and, focusing on the positive.

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 24):
Would the Apollo program be called a well engineered program if it had failed?

In my opinion, yes, if design were not the problem. Lockheed designed and built one of the most advanced and safest jetliners ever in the L-1011 TriStar. Yet, it "failed" at only 250 frames delivered. I would classify this aircraft as the perfect example of a program that was well-engineered but "failed."

Quoting Woosie (Reply 27):
That said, the future of the A380 is not decided by one customer but by many.

Hi Woosie. I believe you make an excellent point. The A380 is a multi-decade project. And, just as a thoroughbred may stumble out of the gate, this race is a long one. It has not been an easy one, as of late, for Airbus but it is still a marathon and not a sprint. Airbus has learned a lot about itself during this process, and, will work to learn from its mistakes. Progress may be painstaking and the road may become even bumpier, but, this should be merely a prelude to a brighter future.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 34):
Potential demise? Aren't we getting way ahead of reality here?

Hi Revelation. Happy to know you. Please accept my apologies if these two words conveyed a grander aura than was intended. My use of the word "potential" was selected because of its meaning as defined by The Merriam-Webster Dictionary: "something that can develop or become actual." I thought that was a reasonable noun to use. Regarding "demise," my choice here was selected because a significant portion of the A380F order book had now been erased, leaving some questions as to the viability of this portion of the program (at least for the present time.) I meant only to enjoin the two words to draw a connection and saw it as an accurate description of the situation. If my words did not convey this, in the manner in which I had intended, then again I apologize.

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 47):
What some of us I think find tedious, is when the quality of the conversation is reduced to the kind of trash talk you might hear in a locker room or on the basketball court. What we discuss here, involving intellectual, technical and business related information, becomes less credible when accompanied by bravado, condescension and insult, fueled by emotion and ego (not pointing any fingers here - I'm speaking in general) which often take the place of any comprehensive and useful analysis. What we discuss here is so essentially different in nature than, say, a sports event, it demands different decorum, in my view.



Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 47):
appeal for members to debate with respect (which is how I read it) appeals to me, because I think it would bring about more comprehensive and useful debate.

I notice how Boeing has consistently taken the high road with regard to any comments they make on Airbus' challenges, and were they to do less it would detract from their credibility, in my eyes.

Hi SSTsomeday. You have captured the essence of "class" and "respect" in your posts, and, with very eloquent word choices I might add. I imagine you strive to embody these same qualities in yourself and the way you conduct your life. A.net is that much better for having you as a part of the community. Welcome aboard - and - onto my Respected Users list.


Blessings, N31029
John 3:16
 
WingedMigrator
Posts: 1771
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:31 pm

(about the A330F idea)

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 26):
Thanks! I suggested that as an alternative in the previous thread regarding UPS potentially canceling the A380F. Wink



Quoting Browntailwhale (Reply 57):
You heard it HERE first!

Hey, great minds think alike, right? Or maybe it's just patently obvious low-hanging fruit for Airbus.

Quoting F4N (Reply 68):
Are A330F's that much of an advance over the A306 in terms of range & payload?

An A330F based on the current A330-200 would haul 65 tonnes over 4000 nm.
An A330F with new generation engines would haul the same about 4500 nm.
An A306F can haul 55 tonnes over 2650 nm.
So you're looking at 18% more payload and ~60% more range compared to the A306F.

The 330F would fit nicely between the 777F above and the smaller conversion freighters (757, 320) below.

It has been rumored for quite some time, and was nearly launched at Farnborough. The long silence suggests to me that they are thinking about re-engining it, and whether or not they do so depends in part on their A350 strategy (and whether they offer just the A350XWB or both A350XWB and A330E with new engines, shared with the A330F)

(edit): A further thought-- the re-engining decision may also involve a choice to go to new engines and the A333 fuselage, instead of the 332, increasing payload capacity and keeping range about the same. This is very likely also in the trade space.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...bus+closes+in+on+A330F+launch.html

[Edited 2006-11-09 05:36:07]
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15100
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:11 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 76):
Hey, great minds think alike, right? Or maybe it's just patently obvious low-hanging fruit for Airbus.

Just combine it.

Great minds can recognize the obvious answer while others are busy denying the question even exists.

 Wink
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
sstsomeday
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:32 pm

Quoting N31029 (Reply 75):
You have captured the essence of "class" and "respect" in your posts, and, with very eloquent word choices I might add.



Quoting N31029 (Reply 75):
Welcome aboard - and - onto my Respected Users list.

Well thanks. I will strive to make the content of my posts of as much value to the discussion as the manner in which I post them.
I come in peace
 
OldAeroGuy
Posts: 3925
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:54 pm

Quoting N31029 (Reply 75):
The engineering of the electrical systems was excellent. The coordination & integration of the subsystems was not.

But coordination and integration is also part of engineering. To say the design of a system that cannot be build is an excellent design misses the essence of good engineering.

Please reassess your definition of excellent engineering and design.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
astuteman
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:22 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 79):
But coordination and integration is also part of engineering. To say the design of a system that cannot be build is an excellent design misses the essence of good engineering.

And HOW!  checkmark 

My day job is stopping designers designing "excellent" systems that cannot be built - and I'm a BUSY guy  Smile

Regards
 
Lumberton
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:34 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 76):
A further thought-- the re-engining decision may also involve a choice to go to new engines and the A333 fuselage, instead of the 332, increasing payload capacity and keeping range about the same. This is very likely also in the trade space.

But wouldn't that bring it closer in capacity to the 777F, or is that the idea? Wouldn't an "almost straight" replacement (capacity wise) for the A300F be the A330-200F?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
F4N
Posts: 507
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 80):
And HOW! checkmark

My day job is stopping designers designing "excellent" systems that cannot be built - and I'm a BUSY guy Smile

Astuteman:

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Absolutely superb response. I wish you could bottle that attitude and send it over here so I could give it to my boss. It would make my life sooo much easier!

regards,

F4N
 
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Revelation
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:07 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 79):
But coordination and integration is also part of engineering. To say the design of a system that cannot be build is an excellent design misses the essence of good engineering.

Also, in this context, one has to be able to buld as many exact copies of the original as one wants.

When I see the photo of the four A380s flying in formation, I have to wonder if anyone knows exactly how many wires are in each airplane, and exactly where they go.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
NoWorries
Posts: 493
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:42 pm

Quoting F4N (Reply 68):
Wouldn't the T7F be a better option? One would have to suspect Boeing would like nothing better than to supplant another A380F orrder with
something.

I'm wondering if the 5.5 tonne overweight problem cited by EK also affects the freighter? If so, that could really harm the UPS case for 380F as well.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8886
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:47 pm

Quoting NoWorries (Reply 84):
I'm wondering if the 5.5 tonne overweight problem cited by EK also affects the freighter?

There is no reason to believe the weight problem wouldn't affect the freighter. Relatively few parts (by weight) are specific to the passenger version.

Quoting NoWorries (Reply 84):
If so, that could really harm the UPS case for 380F as well.

Yes, it appears the A380F will not be competitive in tonne-mile costs. Airbus need to get serious about the A330F.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:07 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 80):
Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 79):
But coordination and integration is also part of engineering. To say the design of a system that cannot be build is an excellent design misses the essence of good engineering.

And HOW!

Astuteman let me add my voice to that choir. With modern solid modeling software there are fewer excuses than before for bad designs. But many excellent parts are made that simply cannot be integrated and much less activated.

Personally, I think the timing of the delay killed this order. FedEx has a new Asian hub to open in 2008 and simply requires more trans-Pacific lift. As I noted before, there bond rating isn't high enough for them to pursue a dual strategy.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
leelaw
Posts: 4517
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 85):
it appears the A380F will not be competitive in tonne-mile costs.

...During the A380 rollout last year, FedEx executives told The DAILY that the A380's two floors perfectly fit the international cargo configuration of FedEx's DC-10s, MD-11s and A300s (DAILY, Jan. 20, 2005). When FedEx first declared its intention to buy A380Fs in 2001, the airline said it completed an intense analysis comparing the A380 with Boeing products. At the time, executives said the A380 was the best aircraft to combat airport slot constraints and growing airspace congestion. Executives also predicted the A380 would supply up to a 25% after-tax return, compared with competitors.

Now FedEx is touting the advantages of the 777, noting its 6,500 nautical mile range is 2,200 more than the MD-11's, and its 171,000 revenue pound payload is 8,500 pounds higher than that of the McDonnell Douglas aircraft currently used in long-haul operations...


http://www.awstonline.com/avnow/news...y_story.jsp?id=news/FEDEX11086.xml
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
elvis777
Posts: 346
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RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:18 am

Howdy N31029,

No aplogogies were necessary. Different points of view. You are a gentleman.

Thanks and Peace

Elvis777
Leper,Unevolved, Misplaced and Unrepentant SportsFanatic and a ZOMBIE as well
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15100
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:29 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 80):
My day job is stopping designers designing "excellent" systems that cannot be built - and I'm a BUSY guy

Sounds like building a house.

The architect has all these great ideas, with beautiful angles and proportions and "openness" and all that fun, artsy/egghead stuff.

The tradesman realize they can't install their systems into this masterpiece, and the modifications begin. By the end, there's usually a loss of intent in some of the architectural focal points, where you can't recognize or understand why something was done at all.

"You want an air conditioning system?" "You are aware if you run all those wires through the same conduit, you'll get interference, right?" "There's no way to physically get your refrigerator into your new kitchen..."

That's why mass produced homes in developments are kept more simple and often lack character. Easier/cheaper to build and replicate that way.

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 87):
When FedEx first declared its intention to buy A380Fs in 2001, the airline said it completed an intense analysis comparing the A380 with Boeing products. At the time

That's the key: At the time...

At the time you could get the the 744F as the only longer range option. And the 767F did NOT have commonality with pallets that could go in the MD11 or A300F.

The 777F changes everything for FX, and i am sure that the A380F became a hassle as soon as they learned of the 777F capabilities. The A380F was sort of like stacking 2 A300s into one plane. But the 777F is more capable and flexible.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
astuteman
Posts: 7146
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:05 am

Quoting F4N (Reply 82):
Absolutely superb response. I wish you could bottle that attitude and send it over here so I could give it to my boss. It would make my life sooo much easier!

"sense of humour essential"......

We've actually got some great engineers, but I fell out with our senior hydraulics guy when he said he'd satisfied "the requirement" because his systems satisfied the calculated requirement of the customer.

His systems contained manifolds we physically couldn't install, and flexible couplings, we could install (by the hundred), on modules, but never reach to connect once the modules were installed.

I told him if he'd satisfied the requirements, to burn a disk of his design, and I'd give it to the submarine crew to sail the boat down the channel with.
I got a blank look in response..  biggrin 

I've said this before, particularly when organisations are new to 3D CAD, it's often very difficult for people, particularly old production guys, and Logistic Support guys, to interpret a 3D model in a robust way.
Add this to engineers recruited to fill 3D cAD seats in a hurry (as opposed to having strong product knowledge), and its easy to get mistakes made that the production guys can enjoy at leisure.

3D CAD is only as good as the people (not just the engineers, but everyone) using it.  yes 

Glad you enjoyed the laugh

Regards
 
ChiGB1973
Posts: 1394
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:39 am

RE: FED EX Buys 15 X 777F, Cancels A380F Part II

Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:32 am

I do not think I have ever seen a 777 that I thought was ugly, but FedEx colors look aweful in this picture. Don't know what it is?

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2006/q4/061107a_pr.html

M

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