Will The A380 Certify In 2006?

OldAeroGuy · Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:47 am

The FI link below indicates that 15 Dec is the target date for A380 EASA certification. That is only 35 days from now with the end of 2006 only 51 days away.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...deadline+for+Airbus+A380+type.html

However, it appears that the A380 is still doing significant certification testing from the links below.

http://mbl.is/mm/frettir/frett.html?nid=1234046

http://www.busrep.co.za/index.php?fA...=3516785&fSectionId=566&fSetId=662

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/290663_airbus01.html

Certification testing still being done includes cross winds, autolands and of course route proving.

My own experience says that if this level of testing is going on only a month before planned certification, it's unlikely that you're going to make the certification date.

What do others on the forum think?

If the certification does slip into 2007, does it really matter? (Aside from an Airbus sense of accomplishment.)

ikramerica · Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:57 am

With the 787's tight schedule, I would assume that B will also be doing heavy testing up until the last minute. I don't think you can assume that the A380 is not going to make it's Dec 15th "schedule" (cough, cough) based on the testing going on now.

As for Dec 15th being part of any schedule, that's the laugher. That date has been pushed back so many times, who the hell knows if it was picked out of a hat or a date that actually means something inside Airbus at this point. Considering delivery is nearly a year away, I'm not sure why Dec 15th really matters at all.

Alessandro · Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:03 am

Oldy, A380 visited it´s 13th country today, Iceland.

WINGS · Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
As for Dec 15th being part of any schedule, that's the laugher. That date has been pushed back so many times, who the hell knows if it was picked out of a hat or a date that actually means something inside Airbus at this point. Considering delivery is nearly a year away, I'm not sure why Dec 15th really matters at all.

Hi Ikramerica,

Well with this situation, the date has not been picked out of a hat. I you had read closely the FI report you would come across the following information.

According to sources close to the process, EASA is working towards Friday 15 December for the approval. European industry closes for the entire week starting 25 December for the Christian religious festival of Christmas and do not return until 2 January 2007. Many workers also take the week commencing 18 December as additional vacation, making 15 December effectively one of the last working days in 2006.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...deadline+for+Airbus+A380+type.html

I too would not be surprised if they manage to miss this date for certification. The have very little credibility when it comes to the A380 program. Who knows maybe they just may make. God knows that they need some positive PR for a change. Smile

Regards,
Wings

Poitin · Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:24 am

What ever happen to the wing test? As it signed off on or not? I don't remember seeing anything about that for months.

dynkrisolo · Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:28 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Thread starter):
Certification testing still being done includes cross winds, autolands and of course route proving.

My own experience says that if this level of testing is going on only a month before planned certification, it's unlikely that you're going to make the certification date.

Route proving might not need to be completed for the type certificate. But others have to be. In fact, I recall the route proving tests were delayed last month so that they could complete other tests.

Airbus needs to reduce and analyze the data, prepare certification reports, and so forth. So, Dec 15 seems to be very tight.

FWIW, I thought Airbus had done the autoland tests very early on during the flight test. If I reall, it was around July or August of last year. They talked about how unusal for an aircraft program to do the autoland tests that early.

redflyer · Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:32 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
Considering delivery is nearly a year away, I'm not sure why Dec 15th really matters at all.

Could it be they want to free up valuable engineering resources to tackle the wiring (and other) problems? If they get the regulatory certifications out of the way they could focus all efforts on getting the delivery schedule back on track.

Stitch · Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:33 am

This is just the "general" type certificate, correct? With the "manufacturer" configuration.

Once they receive that, then they start on SQ's type certificate, followed by EK's and then QF's and then all the rest, correct?

OldAeroGuy · Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
This is just the "general" type certificate, correct? With the "manufacturer" configuration.

Once they receive that, then they start on SQ's type certificate, followed by EK's and then QF's and then all the rest, correct?

Correct on all counts. Every individual airplane must show certification compliance. If an individual airplane is essentially like a previously certified version of the same model, the compliance review is generally small. If there are big changes, like a new interior, compliance can be very involved. However, very few transport category airplanes are identical. Either the OEM or the airlines always has a few changes.

It keeps the certification troops busy and drives the factory nuts.

Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 6):
Route proving might not need to be completed for the type certificate.

No, the route testing needs to be completed for the basic TC. The requirement is to show that the airplane can function as a completely integrated product in the air transport system (airport compatibility, communications, etc).

osiris30 · Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:55 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Thread starter):
If the certification does slip into 2007, does it really matter? (Aside from an Airbus sense of accomplishment.)

Type or production certification?

Type, probably yes. Production, no.

jacobin777 · Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 5):
What ever happen to the wing test? As it signed off on or not? I don't remember seeing anything about that for months.

It was a nonevent, as Airbus was able to show to the authorities via their FEM's that adding some extra stringers, fasteners, etc would solve that problem.....

Poitin · Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 11):
It was a nonevent, as Airbus was able to show to the authorities via their FEM's that adding some extra stringers, fasteners, etc would solve that problem.....

Thank you, I figured as much

Rheinbote · Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:07 am

I'm inclined to believe they'll make the type certificate on Dec 15th, as I#ve been told that cabin electrics is not part of it.

ikramerica · Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 4):
Well with this situation, the date has not been picked out of a hat. I you had read closely the FI report you would come across the following information.

That makes sense, but my point was that if it REALLY mattered to Airbus, they would make people stay until Dec 16th, or 17th, etc., not let them take an extra week of vacation.

I've never seen a company with such troubles operate with a complete lack of urgency. I think it shows a structural deficiency in the corporation.

But beyond that, only a few weeks ago they were still talking about November certification...

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 10):
Type, probably yes. Production, no.

I really doubt it matters in the grand scheme of things. But they decided they want to keep to "certified in 2006" so they are going to try to do it. Sort of.

I think they have a good chance of making it, anyway. The biggest hurdle is getting all the paperwork in order and certified as actually describing the aircraft in question...

slz396 · Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:17 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
my point was that if it REALLY mattered to Airbus, they would make people stay until Dec 16th, or 17th, etc, not let them take an extra week of vacation.

Certification is done not by Airbus, but by EASA, a European government institution. The end of year is a public holiday period in Europe and even if Airbus would keep on working as normal, all government institutions are closed then. Since you can't just call civil servants in to work during public holidays, not even to certify the A380, it is either Dec 25th at the very latest or next year...

This has nothing to do with any difficiencies within Airbus' organisation, it is just the way the labour market in Europe is regulated.

WINGS · Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):

That makes sense, but my point was that if it REALLY mattered to Airbus, they would make people stay until Dec 16th, or 17th, etc., not let them take an extra week of vacation.

I've never seen a company with such troubles operate with a complete lack of urgency. I think it shows a structural deficiency in the corporation.

But beyond that, only a few weeks ago they were still talking about November certification...

I agree with you 100% in regards to Airbus inability to make the deadlines with the A380 program. It indeed has become pathetic to be more accurate. Lets just see if they actually make it this time.

It just saddens me to know that just a few months ago SQ was to receive their first A380 in December. How on earth did they f_ _k up the whole program, that now we will have to wait an additional 10 months for SQ to get their first frame. This is if they don't manage to out do them selves and slip again. With what we have seen from Airbus it is more than probable to happen. It's just pathetic.

On another note does any member actually believe that Airbus might actually deliver it's first frame prior to the October date?

Regards,
Wings

ebbuk · Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:13 am

What exactly happens at Certification? Apart from legal clearance to fly the plane,
Does the weight of the plane become public knowledge?
Does any other information come to light that will help for more accurate calculations about the certified plane's performance figures?

jacobin777 · Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 12):

Thank you, I figured as much

You are welcome, as you stated there was a lot talk about it when it broke below the expected (needed) value, but virtually no talk about it when the problem was basically solved.

OldAeroGuy · Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:51 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 17):
What exactly happens at Certification? Apart from legal clearance to fly the plane,
Does the weight of the plane become public knowledge?
Does any other information come to light that will help for more accurate calculations about the certified plane's performance figures?

A few things can be gleaned from the readily available certification information.

Some of the things that become public knowledge will be:

The MZFW, MTOW and MLW will displayed, but the really interesting number, MEW, will not.

Certified Noise data will be available.

For those that can get a Flight Manual, alot of certification performance data will be shown, including takeoff and landing field lengths, climb capability etc. However, there will be very little data that is part the airplane economic performance since fuel mileage is not certification data.

Flight Manuals used to be part of the public record but since they can be used for competitive analysis, AFM's are now controlled documents and you have to have the approval of the OEM to get one.

A few other facts can be gleaned from the Type Cert Data sheet, but there should not be a significant amount of new airplane information available when the TC is issued.

RIXrat · Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:00 am

If an when the A380 travels to the U.S., will the FAA also have confirm its airworthiness. As far as EASA is concerned a British parliamentary report had some scathing words for it in a just released report, calling it "half-baked" and "an accident waiting to happen."

See link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6127508.stm

OldAeroGuy · Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
That makes sense, but my point was that if it REALLY mattered to Airbus, they would make people stay until Dec 16th, or 17th, etc., not let them take an extra week of vacation.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 15):
Certification is done not by Airbus, but by EASA, a European government institution. The end of year is a public holiday period in Europe and even if Airbus would keep on working as normal, all government institutions are closed then. Since you can't just call civil servants in to work during public holidays, not even to certify the A380, it is either Dec 25th at the very latest or next year...

Yes, Airbus' part of cert timing was making sure the cert data was available early enough so EASA had time to finish their reviews prior to the desired cert date.

Extra Airbus work to speed up the cert process would have been done over the last two years as it is impossible to catch up in the last month or so.

However, it is a bummer when you schedule a cert date near a major holiday. Neither EASA or the FAA are inclined to cancel holidays or pay overtime to make sure you hit your desired cert date.

I think Airbus would have been wise to move the cert date into 2007 when the latest delivery delays were announced. Depending on EASA in Dec is a bad choice. Maybe I'll be surprised.

pygmalion · Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:18 am

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 20):
If an when the A380 travels to the U.S., will the FAA also have confirm its airworthiness. As far as EASA is concerned a British parliamentary report had some scathing words for it in a just released report, calling it "half-baked" and "an accident waiting to happen."

The FAA accepts a EASA TC (vice versa also) There are a few rules that are different but not many and those are usually handled on the side.

ebbuk · Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:51 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 19):

Thanks for the info but just so I am up to speed with the numerous "aviationisms"

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 19):
The MZFW, MTOW MLW MEW,

maximun zero fuel weight? maximum take off weight, maximum load weight? maximum empty weight?

When do the figures apply? If I have the correct terms when does the take off and load weight apply? equally the zero fuel and empty weight?

OldAeroGuy · Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:57 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 23):
maximun zero fuel weight? maximum take off weight, maximum load weight? maximum empty weight?

The first two are right. The second two are Maximum Landing Weight and Manufacturer's Empty Weight.

The last is the most interesting since if this were to be known, it would provide the answer to the A380 overweight question.

pygmalion · Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:47 am

OEW + PAX + Baggage+ Cargo = MZFW
MZFW + Fuel = MTOW

OEW is fixed (weight of the basic airplane). MTOW is a fixed structural and power limit. All others are variables. But when you add them all up to get MTOW, they have to be less than MTOW. So, if maximum fuel and maximum payload is higher than MTOW then something has to come off either limiting your payload or your range.

ebbuk · Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 24):

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 25):

Thanks to the both of you. I am learning all the time. Can't wait to start crunching through the numbers.

OldAeroGuy · Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:13 am

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 22):
The FAA accepts a EASA TC (vice versa also) There are a few rules that are different but not many and those are usually handled on the side.

It's not quite this simple.

Both Airbus and Boeing try to do both EASA and FAA TC's at the same time to save work, but the FAA will not automatically accept an EASA TC and vice versa. To say rule differences are handled on the side also misses the mark.

By process, if Airbus is certifying an airplane, EASA is the certification agency and the FAA is the verifying agency. The reverse is true if it's a Boeing airplane.

This means that the certifying agency does the bulk of the certifying work, but the verifying agency still oversees compliance with any regulations it has that differ from the certifying agency. It is possible that the verification agency will delegate the certification agency to find compliance to its version of the regulations. This means the OEM engineers may have to prepare two different reports for the same data, showing how it meets both sets of rules even though the same person from the cert. agency is finding compliance to both sets of rules.

One area that is never delegated is handling qualities. While the certifying agency pilots fly all necessary conditions, the verifying agency pilots also do their own handling qualities evaluation. This is a very intense part of the cert process as the OEM and verifying agency pilots explore the corners of the high speed and low speed flight envelope for a 3 to 5 day period using the simulator and the airplane at both forward and aft CG's with the certifying agency pilots looking on.

Nothing is accepted without review or done "on the side".

atmx2000 · Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:20 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 4):
According to sources close to the process, EASA is working towards Friday 15 December for the approval. European industry closes for the entire week starting 25 December for the Christian religious festival of Christmas and do not return until 2 January 2007. Many workers also take the week commencing 18 December as additional vacation, making 15 December effectively one of the last working days in 2006.

Off topic, but why does a Western aviation magazine based in the UK have to refer to Christmas as a Christian religous festival? PC gone amok or are the British now ignorant of what Christmas is?

swissy · Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:27 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 24):
The last is the most interesting since if this were to be known, it would provide the answer to the A380 overweight question.

OAG, how true it either will prove the pros here were right or wrong Wink

The date might sound tight and yes it is very close to the EU festivity season which makes me almost believe AB might have more to show than we think....
as we all agree the 380 put a lot of strain on AB's creditability.....

Cheers,

ikramerica · Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:33 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 15):
Certification is done not by Airbus, but by EASA, a European government institution. The end of year is a public holiday period in Europe and even if Airbus would keep on working as normal, all government institutions are closed then.

The public holiday period does not start on the 16th. That was my point. The extra week of holidays is for AIRBUS employees, and that's where the lack of urgency comes in.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 16):
I agree with you 100% in regards to Airbus inability to make the deadlines with the A380 program. It indeed has become pathetic to be more accurate. Lets just see if they actually make it this time.

I really think they will, with no facts to back that up.

My real gripe was that they don't announce that the schedule has changed again, but then call the new date "on schedule." It's late, fellahs. Who are we kidding here?

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 28):
Off topic, but why does a Western aviation magazine based in the UK have to refer to Christmas as a Christian religous festival?

Especially because it is not really that at all. Unless a festival is scheduled in your town, it is not a festival. It is a legal holiday in England. They could call it the "Christmas week recess" or something similar because that's what it is.

Dougloid · Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:31 am

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 25):
OEW + PAX + Baggage+ Cargo = MZFW
MZFW + Fuel = MTOW

OEW is fixed (weight of the basic airplane). MTOW is a fixed structural and power limit. All others are variables. But when you add them all up to get MTOW, they have to be less than MTOW. So, if maximum fuel and maximum payload is higher than MTOW then something has to come off either limiting your payload or your range.

Zero fuel weight (ZFW) is not a variable. That's fixed, and it's the maximum amount the aircraft and its payload can weigh without fuel. The balance, up to maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) can be disposed of by loading as much fuel as you can handle without going over, but NOT more payload other than fuel.

We still do not know what a green A380 aircraft actually weighs, and what an aircraft with an interior and paint actually weighs ON THE SCALE (OEW). That's been the subject of a lot of speculation. In the airport facilities manual it was pegged at about 595,000 pounds but that figure was revised by Airbus to about 606,000 pounds I believe. There is speculation that that number is less than actual. An article in wikipedia suggests it could be 610,000 pounds.

My old boss is a structures DER with 30 years of experience in outfitting large aircraft. We used to do weight projections and estimates back in the day and I respect his opinion. He opines that it will come in greater than 610,000.

How much, though, is the $64,000 question.

pygmalion · Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:33 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 27):
It's not quite this simple

You are exactly correct and I should have simplified it a lot less... It was late on a Friday and I wanted to get work done and go home.

Good explanation btw. I thought it was a bit off topic and I simplified it too much, So thanks for the great explanation.

glideslope · Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:54 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Thread starter):
What do others on the forum think?

Not a chance.

C133 · Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:13 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 31):
Zero fuel weight (ZFW) is not a variable. That's fixed, and it's the maximum amount the aircraft and its payload can weigh without fuel. The balance, up to maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) can be disposed of by loading as much fuel as you can handle without going over, but NOT more payload other than fuel.

Actually, zero fuel weight IS a variable--MAX zero fuel weight is a limiting fixed number. On any given flight, payload items added to operating weight can be any number up to, but not exceeding, MZFW. Then fuel (a variable amount) can be added to this, up to, but not exceeding, MTOW and/or runway limited weight for the conditions.

AirTranTUS · Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:59 pm

It will definantly be certified in December 2006. It may be December 47th, but it will still be December 2006.

Dougloid · Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:05 pm

Quoting C133 (Reply 34):
Actually, zero fuel weight IS a variable--MAX zero fuel weight is a limiting fixed number. On any given flight, payload items added to operating weight can be any number up to, but not exceeding, MZFW. Then fuel (a variable amount) can be added to this, up to, but not exceeding, MTOW and/or runway limited weight for the conditions.

Corrected I am....what I meant to say was maximum zero fuel weight.

as in the following.

Maximum ramp weight 592 tonnes 1,305 lbs. X 1000

Maximum takeoff weight 590 tonnes 1,300 lbs. X 1000

Maximum landing weight 427 tonnes 941 lbs. X 1000

Maximum zero fuel weight 402 tonnes 886 lbs. X 1000

Maximum fuel capacity 310,000 Litres 81,890 US gal.

Typical operating weight empty 252.2 tonnes 555.5 lbs. X 1000

Typical volumetric payload 149.4 to 157.4 tonnes 329.4 to 347 lbs. X 1000

OldAeroGuy · Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:20 pm

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 32):
You are exactly correct and I should have simplified it a lot less... It was late on a Friday and I wanted to get work done and go home.

Good explanation btw. I thought it was a bit off topic and I simplified it too much, So thanks for the great explanation.

No problem. Having lived in the process a few times it really is amazing how well it works given the differing interests of the parties involved. It's a credit to the professionalism of the people at the OEM, including the DER's (who have a difficult dual role) and in the agencies. Consequently, I thought it was appropriate to explain things in a little more depth.

Will The A380 Certify In 2006?

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