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WINGS
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Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:58 pm

Well the Seattle times has provided us with a very detailed interview with Mr John Leahy and his outlook in various subjects.

Do take the time to read through both articles.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...technology/2003431189_leahy15.html

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...hnology/2003431623_leahyweb15.html

The main points are listed below.

Airbus A350XWB


We're about to have an industrial launch, I trust, on the A350-XWB, which required a quick redesign.

He confirmed the so-called A350-XWB, which will compete against Boeing's 787 and 777 jets, will likely have a carbon fiber-reinforced plastic fuselage similar to the 787's. But there will be a crucial difference, said Leahy.

To make repairs easier, Airbus will construct the fuselage with plastic panels rather than the huge, single-piece tubular sections Boeing is using.

"We're talking in a range of 50 percent [composites] by weight, similar to what Boeing is doing [in the 787].

"I've got 100 orders already for the A350. So far, I'm not finding anybody who wants to cancel their order."


Airbus A332F


"I would think you will see the industrial launch of an A330-200 freighter in the next few months.

"I have a few delivery positions that I'm marketing at the end of 2009 and 2010.


Airbus A380


"We have a way forward. ... We leave a lot of these customers speechless when we try to explain what happened and why it happened. But after all the yelling and screaming, people say, it looks like you've finally got it under control.

Airbus A32X


"Boeing has much more of a need to look at single aisle than we do.

"In all my travels around the industry, I get questions about 'When I can get A320 delivery positions?', not 'When are you coming out with an updated version?'

"We got caught napping on the 787. Don't expect we're going to fall into that trap twice

"We're taking the production up to 34 a month [on the A320 narrow-body jet family]. We're looking at even going higher. No one's ever done that before.


Boeing


"On the industrial side, Boeing has been doing something right.

"And they've clearly got a leg up on us on the 787. We didn't see it coming. We didn't know the level of technology that they had."

"I'm not in an order race with Boeing. Which is what you would say if you were several hundred orders behind.

"When all is said and done, I think you'll see Airbus sitting between 40 percent and 60 percent of the market for the next five or six years. The last five years, we were above 50 percent.


Regards,
Wings
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NYC777
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:13 pm

The guy is desperately trying to pull his chestnuts out of the fire.

I love the excuse that Airbus underestimated the level of technology that the 787 will introduce. Either they they don't read what is being said about the competitions plans or they don't talk to their customers or they're so full of themselves.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
mush
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:37 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):
The guy is desperately trying to pull his chestnuts out of the fire.

Why? He has done nothing wrong...the problems with Airbus are in no way Leahy's fault. In fact his department sold 100 copies of an airplane that was at the time inferior to it's counterpart (old A350 vs. B787). His department is selling A320s like it's going out of style (backlog around 1800 copies according to Airbus website). And he just made a deal for a LOI with Singapore Airlines for a plane that has been delayed for 2 years. If anything, Leahy has been the most steadying force in the Airbus Company.

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 2):
Your rethoric is so childish ...

Very true...
Sprung from cages out on highway 9
 
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:43 pm

Quoting Mush (Reply 3):
Leahy has been the most steadying force in the Airbus Company.

Soo true!!

Quoting Mush (Reply 3):
Your rethoric is so childish ...

Soo true!!
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
slz396
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:57 pm

Quoting Mush (Reply 3):
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):
The guy is desperately trying to pull his chestnuts out of the fire.

Why? He has done nothing wrong...the problems with Airbus are in no way Leahy's fault. In fact his department sold 100 copies of an airplane that was at the time inferior to it's counterpart (old A350 vs. B787). His department is selling A320s like it's going out of style (backlog around 1800 copies according to Airbus website). And he just made a deal for a LOI with Singapore Airlines for a plane that has been delayed for 2 years. If anything, Leahy has been the most steadying force in the Airbus Company.

One of the best open-minded appreciations of the work of John Leahy I've seen on this site since long! Congratulations for hitting the right tone with it.

Personally I have never understood why some people (mainly Americans) have such a big problem with him? Sure, at times he's been very vocal about the products he has on offer and e likes to make the subtle differences with competing products more important than they really are (often by means of half spun proof), but isn't this what he is supposed to do as chief sales man of Airbus? Besides, is he any less fairer or less vocally upbeaten as his Boeing counterpart Randy Baseler?

I am sorry but I just can't undo myself of the impression it is not so much about what the chief sales man of Airbus says or how he says it, but about the fact it is an American criticizing one of the icons of the American economy, which is considered shocking and not-done... Although I've not often seen it explicitly, it almost always sounds as if many here would easily label him as and 'unpatriotic traitor', simply because he's working for Airbus!

Now, back to topic and more precisely John Leahy himself with something which has not been said so far: I hope he'll recover soon from his hart surgery not only for airbus, but also for his family.
 
Scorpio
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:58 pm

NYC777,

Let me see if I get this straight: if Leahy says he's going to beat the 787 with an inferior A350, you slam him for being an arrogant ass. When he admits to having been wrong, and changes his tone completely (pretty much exactly to what people here on a.net said he should change it to) you... SLAM HIM AGAIN and say he's

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):
desperately trying to pull his chestnuts out of the fire

What is it exactly that he should do that would NOT make you slam him?

Or do you (as I suspect) just slam Airbus out of habit?
 
NYC777
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:59 pm

A few more gems from John Leahy:

'"If [Boeing] do something that is a replacement for the B767, we
will respond." But Leahy said he did not think there was any rush. If
Airbus were to build an A330-200 replacement, he said, 2012 would be
the logical timetable to enter service.' -- Quoted during 2002,
Seattle Times, 15-Jun-03.

"There's a 50% probability [that Boeing] won't product anything more
than hype [with the 7E7] ... Airbus could offer the same engine [on
the A330]. Instead of [the A330] having three engine choices, we'll
have four." -- Aviation Daily, 16-Apr-03.

"The 'dream machine' or whatever it's called? I couldn't have hoped
for a better name, being their competitor. It's a PR man's dream, but
an engineer's nightmare ... It's purely a PR man's dream. I think the
travelling public knows that, too, which is probably why they voted
[for the name 'Dreamliner']. In fact, it seems most of the people at
Airbus who voted picked the 'Dreamliner'. Some of the traditionalists
voted for 'Stratoclimber', which would have been a better name."

"I was pretty much convinced that [Boeing] would do [the 7E7] in
recent months. But now I'm convinced they're not going to do it. Why?
Because now they're talking about the sexy shape of the windshield,
the distinctive nose and the rake of the wingtip fences and how it
will be distinguishable from other airplanes in the marketplace. And
how people will just look at it and say: 'Wow!'"

"When someone starts doing that, it's because they're saying to
themselves: 'I've got a 'me-too' product. I'm trying to leapfrog the
A330-200 and what the engineers have just come up with looks an awful
lot like my competitor's airplane."

"It is a bit like a bunch of guys in the 1960s in Detroit,
saying: 'We can hold the Japanese off for a few more years. We've got
to get those tailfins just a little bit higher, get a little bit more
chrome, some really dynamite headlights, and the Japanese are going
to be history, because everyone's going to want our new Cadillacs or
whatever. And they went right off the cliff doing it."

"I hate to say this, as we're spending a lot of money to be here, but
we are machine-tool makers. These are the machine tools of the air
transport industry. They're sold on seat-mile costs, ton-mile costs,
range, payload, environmental efficiency and fuel burn [and not on
their looks]. That's not the way you buy machine tools."

'Leahy said what convinced him that the Boeing project won't fly was
Boeing's announcement that it was going to have a final assembly
cycle of three days instead of 30 days, a reduction of 90% compared
to the norm in the business. "Why would you do that? Because the
business case isn't working."'

'Leahy says he's so convinced the Dreamliner will never fly that he's
started taking wagers.'

'Leahy predicted that, if Boeing does launch the Dreamliner program,
it will be a commercial flop as Airbus' competitor will have to
amortize the US$8bn development cost, which he said would
automatically ad $15m to the sticker price and give Airbus an
advantage because the development cost of the A330-200, which it is
supposed to kill, was only $400m as it is a derivative of the
A330/340 Family.'

"If [Boeing] bring out something that costs $8bn in 2008, they're not
going to be around for the 2012-15 cycle." -- Dow Jones Newswires, 18-
Jun-03.

"[The 7E7] is more a marketing tool than an engineering reality ...
It's guerilla marketing. It's an attempt to say, 'don't buy my
competitor's product now, just sit around until I think of something
else to do'." -- Associated Press, 19-Jun-03.

"I think [the 7E7] is quite similar to the threat posed by the Sonic
Cruiser ... [Boeing] basically told the airlines, there is something
else coming. Spend the next couple of years studying it with us."

'However, "Boeing will eventually have to come up with a replacement
for the B767. But, I don't think it will be anything along the lines
of this 'Super Efficient' twin. What you will end up seeing is a
relatively ordinary airplane similar to the B767 that will try and
match the A330-200. They may get close, but it will be a plain
vanilla competitor to what is a tough standard to topple -- the A330-
200."'

"[Boeing] will have an US$8bn development program to make an airplane
that except for the engines might be 1 or 2 percent more efficient
than the A330-200. What's to keep us from taking that same engine and
putting it on the A330-200? So, what [Boeing is] talking about is an
$8bn development program to get, except for the engines, a couple
percent improvement, if that, over the A330-200."

'Leahy [also] noted that fewer than 1,000 Boeing B767s have been sold
since the plane entered service.'

"So, 25 years and 900 planes. Figure out how you will get a payback
on $8bn?"

"I can wipe out that 2 percent very quickly by having a lower priced
airplane because I don't have to amortize an $8bn program over 900
planes, if [Boeing] can ever get to 900 planes." -- Seattle Post-
Intelligencer, 18-Jun-03.

'...Airbus had proposed a shortened version of its A330-200, with
fewer seats, but with 500nm more range. A lighter version, at 195t,
was even under study to respond to regional requirements. The only
problem was that the 'A330-500' kept the same wing as the A330-200,
with, as a result, less performance and higher operating
costs ... "Nobody has asked me about the A330-500 in the last 18
months," underlines Leahy. "The A330-500 was an effort made in good
faith to satisfy an anticipated requirement, but the market
said 'no'," added Airbus Marketing Director Alan Pardoe.' --
Interavia, 1-Jul-03.

'Leahy concentrated on competition between the 7E7 and A330. He also
focused on bulk cargo rather than volume, saying the former is a
more "real world" concern for airlines, and concluded that
differences between the baseline 7E7 and A330-200 will be a wash.
Leahy expressed skepticism that Boeing's initial specifications will
hold once engineers eat up space for more equipment and systems and
such heavy items as large-pallet cargo doors.' -- Aviation Week, 15-
Sep-03.

'Leahy ... said he doesn't expect to see the 7E7 launch by year-end
and that the plane would do no better than the existing Airbus
product, the A330-200 ... "We've got about 85 percent of the market
now compared with an airplane that used to dominate the market. But
using today's technology, Boeing will build a plane that may be
better than the B767, but that will be similar to the A330-200." --
Tulsa World, 26-Oct-03.

"You can increase the hype, but you can't change the physics. The
cabin will look like the A330, and the economics of the [7E7] will be
similar as well." -- Wall Street Journal, 18-Nov-03.

'[Leahy] said Airbus doesn't see the 7E7 as a threat because Airbus
has boosted its share of the market for planes of that size in the
last 10 years. "The 7E7 is a mistake; [Boeing]'re trying to catch up
with our existing product."' -- Dow Jones Newswires, 17-Dec-03.

"If the question is: if [Boeing] bring out the 7E7 what are we going
to do? The answer is nothing. We are very content to stay with our
A330-200." -- Reuters, 17-Dec-03.

'"We welcome competition," [Leahy] said. But he added that Airbus
believes the airplane will fall short of Boeing's promises. "It's a
current-technology airplane. That doesn't set the world on fire." --
Wall Street Journal, 17-Dec-03.

"I can't figure out who the customers are who are about to but the
7E7. As soon as I do, I'll go out and talk to them about the A330-
200." -- Associated Press, 17-Dec-03.

'"As we look at the economics of the 7E7, 20 percent lower fuel
consumption, [Boeing] say it'll have 214 seats, and we have 241 on
the A330-200," Leahy said. Using Boeing's numbers, he said, the 7E7
will have operating costs per plane trip of a few percentage points
lower than the A330-200. But, because the A330-200 has more seats,
the Boeing plane will be 2 percent more expensive per passenger
mile. "We don't see that as an overwhelming case for the airlines to
switch to Boeing's plane." -- Toronto Star, 18-Dec-03.

'Over the past several months, Airbus officials have tweaked Boeing
by suggesting they can easily adapt the new 7E7 engines to their A330-
200. But Leahy downplayed that possibility last week. "I am not sure
that we would need new engines as they would enhance operating costs
by no more than 2 percent."'

"The proposed 7E7 is actually very similar to the A330-200 that is as
good without the risks." -- Aviation Week, 22-Dec-03.

'[Leahy] said Airbus isn't planning any moves or product changes to
compete with the 7E7. "We don't feel that we need to do anything with
the product right now." -- Dow Jones Newswires, 24-Mar-04.

'Airbus executivces have sought to minimize the 7E7's advantages, and
yesterday they suggested ANA's order largely reflected its close ties
with Boeing. "ANA did not ask for a proposal from Airbus and did not
ask for performance information of any competing aircraft from
Airbus," Leahy said. "This almost never happens." -- Wall Street
Journal, 27-Apr-04.

'"Except for the engines, the 7E7 is virtually the same aircraft" as
the A330. He says that "one of the 7E7's Achilles' Heels" is that the
baseline aircraft -- which has about 10-15% less capacity than the
A330-200 -- is "too small." Leahy says given that the fuel represents
about 30% of total cash operating costs (COC) and that, as the A330-
200 is a larger aircraft, the 7E7-8 only has a 4% advantage (in fuel
costs) over the Airbus on a COC per seat basis. Overall, Airbus
calculates that the smaller 7E7-8 will actually have a COC per seat
2.5% greater than the A330-200 when flight crew, maintenance and
navigation costs are included. "At best, you see equal seat-mile
costs," says Leahy.'

'He concedes that if an airline wants "7,000-8,000nm range", then the
7E7's longer legs give it an advantage, but Leahy sees this
requirement as niche because "99% of the market is for 6,000nm". But
he does not expect the 7E7's much-vaunted brand-awareness exterior
shape to win it any extra orders. "Not once did an airline say to
me: 'We'd buy your aircraft if it looked better'," says Leahy.' --
Flight International, 13-Jul-04.

"[The Boeing claim that 200 7E7 orders by end-04 is possible is]
typical hype. I've never seen an airplane where the market hype from
the PR department is less in contact with the reality of the
marketplace ... Those numbers are purely a figment of the imagination
of Boeing's public relations department there in Seattle. We are in
contact with the airlines. We talk to them on a daily basis. We know
Boeing is going around and making lots of presentations, but we don't
see anyone about to place orders."

"In a wild attempt to try and keep the total trip costs down, Boeing
made their airplane a little too small. If the B767-300 was the right
size, then our A330-200 would not have 80 percent of the market ...
when you do [long range] in a tiny airplane, you get into the
economics of a corporate jet."

"Unless [Boeing] have discovered some new law of physics or some new
manufacturing process that nobody in the world has ever heard of --
and we know they have not -- then they either will be sub-optimal, in
which case they will make an airplane and it will cost them a fortune
to do it, or they will come back toward the best engineering and
manufacturing standards and build a plane with less than 30 percent
composites." -- Seattle Post-Intelligencer, 19-Jul-04.

"We are pleasantly surprised by the yawns [the 7E7] is getting in the
marketplace." -- New York Times, 20-Jul-04.

"I can't see where the big [7E7] demand is supposedly coming from. It
may be more in the category of wishful thinking than firm orders." --
Seattle Times, 21-Jul-04.

"They are talking about the 7E7, but the fact is all they do is talk
about the 7E7. I see no customer raising their hand and saying they
are going to buy it." -- Tribune Business News, 21-Jul-04.

"Admittedly you could fly further in a 7E7-8 although a lot of
airlines are saying 'I'm not quite sure I want to fly 7,500nm'. But,
we are studying that extra range capability [Boeing] have." -- Flight
International, 27-Jul-04.

"We're not replacing the A330 [with the by-then announced A350] ...
The A330 is optimized for regional flying and the A350 is optimized
for long-range flying. The 7E7 is optimized for neither." -- Wall
Street Journal, 30-Sep-04.

'Entry into service of the A350-800 would be a year after the 7E7, in
2009. "We haven't found any airline which is worried about the extra
year. I haven't seen any great momentum for 7E7-8 sales to this
point."'

"We don't want to shoot ourselves in both feet to replace the [A330]-
200/300, which between them have 80% of this element of the market.
Their Achilles' Heel is range. We solve that with the A350." --
Flight International, 19-Oct-04.

"If we bring a new airplane to market ... it will be done in response
to focus groups that we are now conducting around the industry
telling us whether or not, as a member of the A330 Family, they would
like to have an A330 with about 1,000 to 1,200 miles more range." --
Flight International, 21-Oct-04.

"We are using a lot of composite work on the [A350] wing. The gross
weight of the aircraft will be increased and it will have a 242t
maximum take-off weight." -- Flight International, 30-Nov-04.

"We are spending €4bn developing [the A350] although about €800m of
that will be risk-sharing partners."

"It is an all-new wing. If you had taken new-generation engines from
GE and Rolls-Royce which are on the 7E7 -- we have the same engines
on our aircraft -- and just added those on the A330, the weight would
have been 8t higher than it is on the A350."

"The fact that [Boeing] only have 52 [7E7 sales] means that there are
a lot of those that are teetering on the edge that we believe are
about to go in our direction. More than half of this market is going
to go to a combination of the A330 and A350."

"You will see a significant proportion of customers that Boeing
thought that they might have for the 7E7 now switching to the A350
because of performance of the aircraft." -- Reuters, 11-Dec-04.

"So far, after two years of some of the biggest market push I've ever
seen, [Boeing] have two customers." -- Dow Jones Newswires, 11-Dec-04.

'Leahy ... said [Airbus] has decided to move ahead with the A350
after nine months of consultations with customers. He said it became
clear that there was a market for a long-range lower-cost aircraft,
and Airbus decided to improve on Boeing's plans.' -- International
Herald Tribune, 11-Dec-04.

"When we approached airlines, they told us not to change the A330 but
they said they would be interested if the A330 can fly a little
further. We came up with the A350, which provides more range than the
7E7 and can carry 10 percent more passengers." -- Business Times, 20-
Dec-04.

"We held focus group consultations with airline clients and found
they were not particularly excited with the 7E7 because it had no
commonality with other jets in the Boeing Family. So, when we
proposed a longer-range version of the A330, they welcomed it. The
A350 will belong to the same family, which means the same pilot who
flies an A330 can also fly the A350." -- The Shipping Times, 20-Dec-
04.

"Following authority-to-offer, we're out in the market talking to
airlines. With the interest we've got we should have at least 50
orders by the Paris Air Show." -- Flight International, 21-Dec-04.

"[Boeing] need a way to claw back into a market they once controlled
[with the B767]."

"Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only
two seats."

"I believe if [Boeing] say they're going to do it [7E7 composites],
they will."

"Boeing is in denial when they go around saying [the A350] is just a
warmed over version of the A330. If that's what it was, they'd be
selling a lot more 7E7s right now." -- Chicago Tribune, 12-Jan-05.

"Objectively, [Boeing]'ve got the high ground right now. I wanted
Korean and Northwest."

"[Boeing] seem to be doing everything they can to stop the A350 from
being an industrial launch. My job is to make sure that doesn't
happen."

"When [Boeing] say stuff like [they'll be on top in terms of orders
earned in 2005], and they start to get very aggressive on pricing,
all-of-a-sudden you get to a situation where these guys could really
turn it around this year."

"When you've got 80 percent of a given market, you aren't spending a
lot of time thinking about how to improve that position." -- Seattle
Times, 17-Apr-05.

"If [Boeing] gets the first 100 [orders in the 220-300 seat segment]
it doesn't bother me [as long as Airbus catches up in the long term]."

"We have had a problem getting the plane refined and understood and
out in the market." -- Aviation Daily, 19-May-05.

"This [A350] is an all-new aircraft. Since December we improved
width, range, seat costs, economics. We changed the aircraft three or
four times in the past 90 days. We achieved an 8 tonne weight
reduction through the use of new technologies. 60 percent of the A350
structure is in advanced materials." -- Daily Post, 23-May-05.

"The fact is, it has taken us an awful long time to get the [A350]
right. We've changed the airplane three to four times [in the last 90
days.]" -- Aviation Week, 23-May-05.

"I'm not getting an airplane out there that is more than competitive
with the B787 and you will see orders very soon."

"Boeing argues they have a little more headroom on their plane, so we
changed the shape of the sidewall to have similar width."

"We have been listening to the airlines and going through the design
loops. Our customers said we should have done this a year ago. But
that's water over the dam." -- Seattle Post-Intelligencer, 3-Jun-05.

"Basically, [Boeing]'ve won the PR game."

"The guy who gets on the playing field first wins a few, [but the
A350 is] about to take over the market." -- Wall Street Journal, 10-
Jun-05.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
katekebo
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:01 pm

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
He confirmed the so-called A350-XWB, which will compete against Boeing's 787 and 777 jets, will likely have a carbon fiber-reinforced plastic fuselage similar to the 787's. But there will be a crucial difference, said Leahy.

To make repairs easier, Airbus will construct the fuselage with plastic panels rather than the huge, single-piece tubular sections Boeing is using.

From engineering point of view, making a fuselage with composite panels attached to a conventional frame makes little sense. The beauty of composites is that you can build complex geometrical shapes that are fully integrated from the structural point of view, allowinig the designer to achieve greater strength in the desired directions with less material (weight). Using composite panels with bring little (if any) weight savings, but Airbus may be forced to do it to bring the same level of cabin humidity as Boeing.

In my opinion the true reason why Airbus is not using a fully integrated composite fuselage is because they don't have the technology and it will take them too long (and cost too much) to catch up with Boeing at this stage, so they are making up the story about ease of repair to safe face. Single piece composite construction has been used for years in military field (B2) with great success, unfortunately for Airbus they were caught off-guard and lost too much time concentrating on the A380 instead of developing truely new innovative technologies.
 
NYC777
Posts: 5103
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:05 pm

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 12):
In my opinion the true reason why Airbus is not using a fully integrated composite fuselage is because they don't have the technology and it will take them too long (and cost too much) to catch up with Boeing at this stage, so they are making up the story about ease of repair to safe face. Single piece composite construction has been used for years in military field (B2) with great success, unfortunately for Airbus they were caught off-guard and lost too much time concentrating on the A380 instead of developing truely new innovative technologies.

Right on Katekebo! Leahy and Airbus laughed off the threat that the 787 presented to the A330 and went the derivative route for the longest time but the real reason is as you said..they were too involved with the A380 that they couldn't adequately respond to the 787.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:06 pm

As I get the Times delivered, I just finished reading it with my morning coffee.

One of Leahy's job is to put positive spin on his products, but I do not believe all of it is bluff, though I admittedly am skeptical about a few of his claims, that seem to me designed more to support why Airbus is following a particular - and less advanced - production path on the A350XWB then the 787.

His claim that the airlines he is talking to are afraid of Boeing's CFRP process seems incongruous with SQ's decision to buy it whilst also doing an RoI for the A350 and with LH's internal RFP reviews favoring the 787 over the A350XWB. It is also incongruous with statements by many current and potential 787 customers that the CFRP process looks to dramatically reduce their long-term maintenance costs.

I see Airbus going to "skinned CFRP" not because they can't do a "continuous CFRP" barrel like Boeing, but because it will be able to be brought to market faster. And Airbus may very well not have the CFRP repair capabilities Boeing has developed so using skinned panels make it easier (but more expensive) to fix since you just bin the damaged part instead of fix it in place. This saves more time, as Airbus does not need to develop the repair techniques Boeing already has.

I see this as an interim step, and future Airbus products (like the A320RS) will use a "continuous CFRP" barrel like Boeing as they develop their own production and repair processes.

As to the A320, it is indeed continuing to sell phenomenally well and I do believe Boeing is the one who would benefit more from a new widebody more then Airbus. However, Boeing's backlog and sales are strong enough to tide them over until they're ready to formally bring out the 797RS and, like the 787, I believe Boeing will be first to market with a new narrowbody. However, I believe Airbus will be ready within a year or two, at most, with their answer. It will not be a half-decade or more window of opportunity for Boeing like now.

As for the A380, he's right. Customers are carping left and right, yet they're either holding steady or converting options. FX has cancelled, but that's due to EIS issues and not technical ones.

And the A332F is just being held hostage by Airbus' focus on other projects, and not due to lack of interest in the model.

[Edited 2006-11-15 15:09:52]
 
WINGS
Topic Author
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:17 pm

First of all I would like to express my disappointment in the way this thread has been turned up side down. While many have contributed in a respectful and informative and polite manner, others have done opposite.  Sad

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
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breiz
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:39 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 17):
First of all I would like to express my disappointment in the way this thread has been turned up side down. While many have contributed in a respectful and informative and polite manner, others have done opposite.
Regards,
Wings

I understand you disappointment, WINGS, and I thank you very much for posting these interesting articles from the Seattle times.
Please keep doing so.
 
Poitin
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
To make repairs easier, Airbus will construct the fuselage with plastic panels rather than the huge, single-piece tubular sections Boeing is using.

"We're talking in a range of 50 percent [composites] by weight, similar to what Boeing is doing [in the 787].

However, the panel construction will increase the weight of the fuselage by a bunch, given it needs a framework to be bolted too. Also, it makes pressurisation more difficult, what with all those seams to seal.

All so they can repair the fuselage easier? Gimme a break, Mr. Leahy.

Sounds like they can't master the Boeing barrel technology.

At least they are moving in the right direction.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
Rj111
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:54 pm

It's worth remembering that Airbus are a lot younger than Boeing and have only experienced being number one for a short while - whereas Boeing have have experienced that for decades.

Being and staying number one is an art. Airbus must have learnt a lot of lessons from recent event and that is reflected in Leahy's fair and relatively modest statements.

[Edited 2006-11-15 15:54:44]
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:57 pm

The most significant statement by Mr. Leahy is the confirmation that the A350 will be CFRP assembled in panel form. This "black aluminum" approach will allow neither the economy of manufacture that Boeing will enjoy nor will it produce the lightest possible structure. I simply don't understand this decision other than being cheaper and faster to bring to market. The result will be a compromised A350, vulnerable to Boeing's Y3.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
mptpa
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:59 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):
I love the excuse that Airbus underestimated the level of technology that the 787 will introduce. Either they they don't read what is being said about the competitions plans or they don't talk to their customers or they're so full of themselves.

Don't they read airliners.net?!!

Quoting Mush (Reply 3):
Why? He has done nothing wrong...the problems with Airbus are in no way Leahy's fault. In fact his department sold 100 copies of an airplane that was at the time inferior to it's counterpart (old A350 vs. B787). His department is selling A320s like it's going out of style (backlog around 1800 copies according to Airbus website). And he just made a deal for a LOI with Singapore Airlines for a plane that has been delayed for 2 years. If anything, Leahy has been the most steadying force in the Airbus Company.

Nice said and put. simply put, he IS doing his job. evangelizing his company products is the number one priority and he has done it very well. He cannot control the entire company and engineering and mfg are not his responsibility. However, he gets the bash when things go bad, much like the spokesperson is bashed as he seems to be the face of Airbus. I must say they should have someone like Leahy at Boeing!!!!
 
halls120
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 7):
Personally I have never understood why some people (mainly Americans) have such a big problem with him?

Leahy comes off like an American used car salesman at times. Smarmy and arrogant are two words that immediately come to mind.

Given the incredible products that Airbus has produced over the last two decades, why Leahy often resorts to belittling the competition instead of just hyping his own product is mystifying.

You have to understand that in the US, being a sales person isn't exactly a respected occupation, no matter what you are hawking.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
wjcandee
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:04 am

Funny how when the NYC does nothing more than post an aggregation of quotes of Airbus's chief salesman, which quotes speak for themselves, you guys attack him for being "wierd" or "obsessive".

Don't like the message, attack the messenger personally. Besides being a TOS violation, it's really not very persuasive.

Like all really great salesman, Leahy is a shameless advocate. The sad part is that he's so over-the-top and downright mean and condescending towards his competitor that he, in my view, loses credibility. Culturally, Boeing's sales force doesn't have quite the cult of personality that Airbus does with Leahy, and its public pronouncements tend to be a little more "just the facts, Ma'am" than the colorful venom from Airbus. One reason for that may also be that publicly-traded US companies are a little more constrained about what they can say in public about competitive issues.
 
NYC777
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:19 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 28):
Don't like the message, attack the messenger personally.

Many thanks.

Interesting how some people will read those quotes from Leahy but instead of addressing those quotes directly they feel they have to take pot shots at me. Oh well.

Leahy claims that Airbus had no understanding of the level of technology being put into the 787, well how could they not have known or understood the level of technology that Boeing was putting into the 787? Of course they had to have known whether it's reading about in the trade press, reading about it from Boeing's own press releases, talking to customers or even hearing rumors.

They chose to ignore the middle market and offer just upgrades on the A330.

Then they go ahead and belittle the competition while the competition b***h slaps them into tomorrow and customers grouse about the lack of a competitive offering from Airbus.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
legoguy
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:23 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):

Why do you always post comments like this? I would expect more from someone your age.

Back on the topic now... It will be great news once the a330F is launched. Hopefully that will pull in some orders. Also good to hear that the a320 is still in great demand and will continue to be popular within the foreseeable future.

Will there ever be an A330-300F version?
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:23 am

DELETED...

Off Topic...

In any case, an interesting interview. Very realistic, very objective. If A has enough money to develop the A350, it will be a very competent plane, I am sure!

[Edited 2006-11-15 16:25:35]
 
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semobeila
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:27 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 11):
A few more gems from John Leahy:

'"If [Boeing] do something that is a replacement for the B767, we
will respond." But Leahy said he did... and so on and so on in this mega-post

Some people just seem to have way too much time...
 
ap305
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:29 am

Hilarious to see people getting emotional and combative over a aircraft company and its chief salesman.The most interesting bit from Leahy is the statement about the 777-300er vs the a350-1000.It appears as if Airbus is not able to meet the 15700km range shown at the airshow or they have scaled back the aircraft to use the original 787/a350 powerplants(which will give a choice). Some interesting times ahead in the long term....

[Edited 2006-11-15 16:42:20]

[Edited 2006-11-15 16:46:17]

[Edited 2006-11-15 16:59:51]
Racing, competing, is in my blood. It's part of me, it's part of my life; I've been doing it all my life. And it stands up before anything else- Ayrton Senna
 
Poitin
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 32):
Off Topic...

In any case, an interesting interview. Very realistic, very objective. If A has enough money to develop the A350, it will be a very competent plane, I am sure!

Unfortunately, they may not:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=agbbrsUGG2Yg
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
leelaw
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:35 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
As for the A380, he's right. Customers are carping left and right, yet they're either holding steady or converting options. FX has cancelled, but that's due to EIS issues and not technical ones.

It's also clear that FX made a painstaking review of the business case/plan for the A380 and decided to opt-out rather than "stay-the-course." We'll see whether Mr. Leahy's buddy, Mr. Udvar-Hazy of ILFC, remains as bullish about the prospects for the A380 as he was early in the year.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
787engineer
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:38 am

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 23):
Airbus must have learnt a lot of lessons from recent event and that is reflected in Leahy's fair and relatively modest statements.

Let's hope so.

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
"We're taking the production up to 34 a month [on the A320 narrow-body jet family]. We're looking at even going higher. No one's ever done that before.

They should also take heed of lessons learned by Boeing too. They need to be careful about increasing production.

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):

"We're talking in a range of 50 percent [composites] by weight, similar to what Boeing is doing [in the 787].

Sounds like they're following Boeing's lead.

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
Airbus will construct the fuselage with plastic panels rather than the huge, single-piece tubular sections Boeing is using.

But not completely. This fact will probably keep the A350XWB in the 777 price range or higher as opposed to the 767/787 price range.

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 24):
The most significant statement by Mr. Leahy is the confirmation that the A350 will be CFRP assembled in panel form. This "black aluminum" approach will allow neither the economy of manufacture that Boeing will enjoy nor will it produce the lightest possible structure. I simply don't understand this decision other than being cheaper and faster to bring to market. The result will be a compromised A350, vulnerable to Boeing's Y3.

 checkmark 
 
NYC777
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 32):
Once again a thread killed by some retards. What a shame A-net has become.

Instead of resorting to name calling why don't you try and address some of the issue that are raised by people you don't like, it adds positively to the discussion.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
grantcv
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:41 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 11):
"I was pretty much convinced that [Boeing] would do [the 7E7] in
recent months. But now I'm convinced they're not going to do it. Why?
Because now they're talking about the sexy shape of the windshield,
the distinctive nose and the rake of the wingtip fences and how it
will be distinguishable from other airplanes in the marketplace. And
how people will just look at it and say: 'Wow!'"

This is quite a funny comment in retrospect. Take a look at how the A350XWB differed visibly from the earlier iterations, it has a sexy new shape for the windshield, a more distinctive nose, and a swoopy rake on the wingtips. By John Leahy's own judgement, does that mean that Airbus aren't actually going to do the A350XWB?
 
jacobin777
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:53 am

Many thanks for the links and quotes Wings... Smile


My take is different from some here (though I do agree Leahy is a bit of a "motor mouth"...)


I see some admission of hubris to a certain extent and some admission of making poor decisions on the part of Airbus....that being said, Leahy will only be Leahy, so what does one expect?

Also, what I find interesting is this....

""We've got about 85 percent of the market now compared with an airplane that used to dominate the market. "

If this is true (and I take Leahy's comment with a grain of salt-I prefer to see the stats), then where were the Hazey's, Clarks, Chew's of the world complaing about the fact "there needs to be two good plane manufacturers" and "Boeing needs to step up"....I find it to be a bit hypocritical these people were allowing Airbus to have 85% of the market...

Cheers...
"Up the Irons!"
 
wjcandee
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:59 am

Quoting Mptpa (Reply 25):
He cannot control the entire company and engineering and mfg are not his responsibility.

Engineering and manufacturing at most companies would have murdered this guy by now. The biggest problem that they face is salesmen overpromising and then embarassing the company when it can't deliver. Happens all the time. Part of his JOB is to coordinate with and then put the best shine on what manufacturing can deliver.

For other posters to say that this guy has "moderated" is probably not quite right. Today, he's: (1) probably overpromising A's ability to ramp up production of A320s, certainly treating it as if it's no big deal to do (but maybe laying the ground to beat back Union and Franco-German outrage over the potential outsourcing to China of a big hunk of that production); and (2) still trying to sell an under-engineered A350 (which I refuse to call an "extra wide body", because it isn't).
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:17 am

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 12):
From engineering point of view, making a fuselage with composite panels attached to a conventional frame makes little sense. The beauty of composites is that you can build complex geometrical shapes that are fully integrated from the structural point of view, allowinig the designer to achieve greater strength in the desired directions with less material (weight). Using composite panels with bring little (if any) weight savings, but Airbus may be forced to do it to bring the same level of cabin humidity as Boeing.

In my opinion the true reason why Airbus is not using a fully integrated composite fuselage is because they don't have the technology and it will take them too long (and cost too much) to catch up with Boeing at this stage, so they are making up the story about ease of repair to safe face. Single piece composite construction has been used for years in military field (B2) with great success, unfortunately for Airbus they were caught off-guard and lost too much time concentrating on the A380 instead of developing truely new innovative technologies.

Well said...



-widebodyphotog
If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
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Stitch
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:24 am

With Airbus "on record" noting that the original A350 would only be 500kg lighter if it was made of CFRP instead of Al-Li, why the big rush to move to CFRP on the A350XWB?

Also, the weight savings laser welding Al-Li was supposed to provide are now going to be negated, and additional weight will be added in the form of all the rivets and fastners needed to attach CFRP skins to an Al frame.

While I cannot believe a CFRP A350XWB will weigh more then an Al-Li one (otherwise Airbus wouldn't do it), how significant will the weight savings of their production process be compared to Boeing's more advanced process?
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:32 am

I am just waiting how true is the 25-35% more efficient claim. People has been raving about how efficient XBW will be and took Leahy's power point presentation number as a hard evidence. Before it is even launched, Airbus has revised down the A350-1000's range. I believe we will see MTOW and OEW hike, higher thrust engine, and lower than 25% efficiency figure when compared to 777LR before all said and done. Airbus will have to go closer to B773ER's weight numbers to match range and capacity, especially with paneled CFRPs.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:33 am

Quote:
To make repairs easier, Airbus will construct the fuselage with plastic panels rather than the huge, single-piece tubular sections Boeing is using.

"Most of the world's airlines, at least the ones I've been talking to, have big concerns about that," Leahy said, referring to Boeing's approach.

Most of the worlds airlines?

Who has he been talking to?

It must not be the 34 airlines who have ordered over 430 787s.

[Edited 2006-11-15 17:36:09]
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
katekebo
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 45):
With Airbus "on record" noting that the original A350 would only be 500kg lighter if it was made of CFRP instead of Al-Li, why the big rush to move to CFRP on the A350XWB?

I think the reason for which Airbus is moving towards composites is very simple - because customers are demanding it. (Just as they had to increase the fusalage width based on customer feedback).

Composites are superior to metal in many aspects:

- Less corrosion, so you can have higher cabin humidity, less frequent inspections, etc.

- More resistant to "ramp-rash"

- Less prone to fatigue failure, translating in less frequent inspections and replacement

However, Airbus is not ready to jump into fully integral construction a-la Boeing because it would cost too much (in their current cashflow situation), and take too long (and the A350 is already late to the game).

Weight savings are a secondary benefit in this case, and it seems that A350 will be less than all it could be for the sake of development cost and timing. This is why Airbus is persistently comparing A350 economics vs. the B777 and not B787.
 
halls120
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 7):
Besides, is he any less fairer or less vocally upbeaten as his Boeing counterpart Randy Baseler?

If you can find a single Baseler comment that comes close to the venom and mean-spirited output of Leahy, I'd be surprised.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 42):
Engineering and manufacturing at most companies would have murdered this guy by now. The biggest problem that they face is salesmen overpromising and then embarassing the company when it can't deliver. Happens all the time. Part of his JOB is to coordinate with and then put the best shine on what manufacturing can deliver.

This is the thing I've never understood about Airbus. If I was in the engineering or production department, I'd want to beat the crap out of Leahy for some of the things he's said. Airbus builds a quality product, and they don't need Leahy going over the top in his Boeing is inferior sales pitch.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:39 am

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 48):
Composites are superior to metal in many aspects:

- Less corrosion, so you can have higher cabin humidity, less frequent inspections, etc.

- Less prone to fatigue failure, translating in less frequent inspections and replacement

But will you get theses benefits by attaching CFRP panels to an aluminum frame?
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
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Stitch
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:39 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 46):
I am just waiting how true is the 25-35% more efficient claim. People has been raving about how efficient XBW will be and took Leahy's power point presentation number as a hard evidence. Before it is even launched, Airbus has revised down the A350-1000's range. I believe we will see MTOW and OEW hike, higher thrust engine, and lower than 25% efficiency figure when compared to 777LR before all said and done. Airbus will have to go closer to B773ER's weight numbers to match range and capacity, especially with paneled CFRPs.

I'm also admittedly not sold on CFRP-skinning the frame. However, I will note that if it does indeed work and work well (even if not as well as a "continuous CFRP" fuselage), it could really add a boost to the A320E and A330E programs (as well as making the A332F untouchable in her market).
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:41 am

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 48):
Composites are superior to metal in many aspects:

And is cheaper to build compared to the boutique metal alloy. One of the reasons Boeing went to CFRP.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
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Stitch
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 50):


Quoting Katekebo, reply=48:

Composites are superior to metal in many aspects:

- Less corrosion, so you can have higher cabin humidity, less frequent inspections, etc.

- Less prone to fatigue failure, translating in less frequent inspections and replacement

But will you get theses benefits by attaching CFRP panels to an aluminum frame?

Yes, but I imagine not to the extent Boeing is getting from their "continuous CFRP" process.
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 51):
I'm also admittedly not sold on CFRP-skinning the frame. However, I will note that if it does indeed work and work well (even if not as well as a "continuous CFRP" fuselage), it could really add a boost to the A320E and A330E programs (as well as making the A332F untouchable in her market).

I'm not saying it will not work, but the efficiency gain must be lower than continuous CFRP, thus less than claimed efficiency gain.

I think it's wiser to go with all new design than A320E and A330E, especially A330E. What would it accomplish since it will have lower efficiency than 787. It would just be another A350mkI-V nightmare. A332F does not really have any competitors in her market  Wink, so I don't see a reason for CFRP A332F

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
katekebo
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 50):
But will you get theses benefits by attaching CFRP panels to an aluminum frame?

First, we don't know if the frame will be aluminum or composite. Second, yes, you can still get most of the benefits, if you design it properly. But it would be less-the-optimum design. Engineering is about compromises.

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 52):
And is cheaper to build compared to the boutique metal alloy.

Correct, thanks for adding.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 49):
Airbus builds a quality product, and they don't need Leahy going over the top in his Boeing is inferior sales pitch.

You know, maybe upon reflection this just says something about human nature. I hope that it doesn't. But perhaps it does. After all, Leahy, sadly, is not selling to the level-headed engineers that dominate the parts of the airline that actually produce something. He is instead selling to the upper-echelon management types, who are usually a different breed and see issues from more than a cooly-rational perspective. Perhaps to them, as we see in every election in America, mean-spirited "negative" attack ads WORK. That's the dirty little secret and that's why they are used. Wanna look good? Tout your own positive record. Wanna win the election? Attack the other guy with the most emotionally-charged crap, like Paul Begala talking about how one of his clients highlighted that his opponent "had personally kicked kids out of Head Start", and won the election. When challenged, this meant that he had voted against an extra increase in the Head Start budget. You get the point.
 
WINGS
Topic Author
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:14 am

Something that I have noticed with various posts, is that many believe that Airbus will be placing CFRP panels on a Aluminium (Al-Li) frame.

Has it crossed anyone's mind that Airbus may actually be placing CFRP panels on a CFRP frame?

Is it technically possible for Airbus to make both a CFRP frame and panels?

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:34 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 57):
Has it crossed anyone's mind that Airbus may actually be placing CFRP panels on a CFRP frame?

It would still be less optimal than the monolithic CFRP fuselage barrels that Boeing is using on the 787.
Airbus's Riveted Composite Panels (by MrComet Nov 15 2006 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2006-11-15 18:40:30]
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
leelaw
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:36 am

Isn't the primary rationale behind Mr. Leahy's frequently expressed concern about the "durability" of the composite fuselage in commercial service as designed by Boeing that serious damage to the airframe from ordinary "ramp-rash" would not necessarily be detectable from visual surface inspections of the aircraft. Would the CFRP Skin approach he's now floating really address such concerns if they indeed have any merit in the first place?
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Stitch
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:44 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 57):
Something that I have noticed with various posts, is that many believe that Airbus will be placing CFRP panels on a Aluminium (Al-Li) frame.

Has it crossed anyone's mind that Airbus may actually be placing CFRP panels on a CFRP frame?

Honestly, no.

Quote:
Is it technically possible for Airbus to make both a CFRP frame and panels?

I expect it is, but I would expect such CFRP frames and stringers would need to be significantly stronger then the ones then Boeing is using since the frames and stringers would be the primary load-bearing structures in Airbus' process, as opposed to the fuselage barrel itself, in the case of Boeing's.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 59):
Isn't the primary rationale behind Mr. Leahy's frequently expressed concern about the "durability" of the composite fuselage in commercial service as designed by Boeing that serious damage to the airframe from ordinary "ramp-rash" would not necessarily be detectable from visual surface inspections of the aircraft. Would the CFRP Skin approach he's now floating really address such concerns if they indeed have any merit in the first place?

It would if policy was to bin any panel that was hit, regardless of whether or not physical surface damage is visible. However, I am not sure airlines are going to go for that, though it would be a nice revenue stream for Airbus' "Platinum Care" maintenance program. Big grin

Seriously, it could be as simple as any panel that suffered such "unseen" damage that failed, would only fail to the edge of the panel, limiting the impact to the plane. It would not be an "unzipping" of the frame, as what happened to the Comet I.
 
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:04 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 50):
But will you get theses benefits by attaching CFRP panels to an aluminum frame?

Have they said the frame will be aluminum? Boeing people have said the 787 uses titanium ties because aluminum is prone to corrosion when in contact with carbon. Maybe the 350 will have carbon or titanium frames. Perhaps Airbus will put some isolating material between the carbon and the aluminum frame. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
 
WINGS
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RE: Mr John Leahy Speaks Out About Airbus.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:09 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 60):
Quoting WINGS (Reply 57):
Something that I have noticed with various posts, is that many believe that Airbus will be placing CFRP panels on a Aluminium (Al-Li) frame.

Has it crossed anyone's mind that Airbus may actually be placing CFRP panels on a CFRP frame?

Honestly, no.

Quote:
Is it technically possible for Airbus to make both a CFRP frame and panels?

I expect it is, but I would expect such CFRP frames and stringers would need to be significantly stronger then the ones then Boeing is using since the frames and stringers would be the primary load-bearing structures in Airbus' process, as opposed to the fuselage barrel itself, in the case of Boeing's.

Again people it is me that to comes up with these wild ideas. How probable would it be for Airbus to Glue the panels onto the frame? By doing so it would eliminate the stringers, which would make it considerably lighter.

I have previously been told by a good mate (aeronautical engineer) that Gluing pieces will play an important role in the future of aviation. At the time I did not make much about it, but with this latest developments I would not be surprised to see Airbus go down this path.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.

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