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GneissGuy
Topic Author
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:42 pm

5th Freedom Carriers

Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:50 am

Which carriers make the most of 5th freedom traffic? What are some of the most lucrative 5th freedom routes now?
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:58 am

PK has 5th freedom rights out of MAN....

MAN-Pakistan is one of PK's most lucrative 5th freedom routes ORD-MAN-Pakistan

SQ has 5th freedom rights out of HKG......SIN-HKG-SFO....
"Up the Irons!"
 
777D
Posts: 285
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 7:27 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:06 am

I believe BA has SEA-SYD rights?
 
AF022
Posts: 1861
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:41 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:48 am

Many carriers have significant 5th-freedom operations.
MH operates ARN-EWR and JNB/CPT-EZE, to name a few
KQ and ET have extensive 5th-freedom operations in West Africa as well as BKK-HKG, BKK-CAN (for ET), and DXB-CAN (for KQ).
QF has operations from BKK, HKG and SIN to LHR - all daily.
Emirates has 5th-freedom operations all over the place, especially into NZ/Australia.

Quoting 777D (Reply 2):
I believe BA has SEA-SYD rights?

They might have the rights, but they certainly don't fly the route.
 
AirScoot
Posts: 667
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:58 am

NW/UA have 5th freedom rights within asia - SIN-NRT, MNL-NRT, BKK-NRT, HKG-NRT, ICN-NRT, SGN-HGK, etc.
 
AlexPorter
Posts: 1655
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:10 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:43 am

Air India has 5th freedom on EWR-CDG and JFK-LHR. I'm not sure how much traffic they get, but at least on EWR-CDG it winds up being a "low-fare" option compared to AF, CO, et al.
Last Flight: SCX701 MSP-PHX B738 8Jan2008
 
mk777
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:48 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:52 am

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 5):
Air India has 5th freedom on EWR-CDG and JFK-LHR.

How about AI's ORD-LHR/FRA and LAX-FRA or even YYZ-BHX?? Are these 5th freedom flights?
come fly with me
 
LHRSpotter
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:28 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:44 am

Kuwait Air on LHR-JFK
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5092
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:03 am

Quoting AF022 (Reply 3):
QF has operations from BKK, HKG and SIN to LHR - all daily.

Plus SIN-FRA daily. Actually QF have fifth freedom from SIN to anywhere and have operated in the past SIN-BKK, SIN-HKG-BKK, SIN-HKG-NRT & SIN-NRT.

QF also have fifth freedom right from the US to Europe & Canada. SFO-YVR being operated 3 weekly in the northern summer.

And from India to Europe, not currently operating.

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
UAL747
Posts: 6725
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 1999 5:42 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:20 am

JAL have 5th freedom on NRT-JFK-GRU.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:24 am

Does PR have 5th freedom rights on LAS-YVR?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
zrs70
Posts: 3764
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2000 4:08 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:32 am

I can't speak to how lucrative these routes are, but (unless I missed), they have not yet been mentioned:

CX: YVR-JFK-YVR
SQ: TPE-LAX-TPE
SQ: BKK-NRT-BKK
SQ: FRA-JFK-FRA
SQ: MAN-ZRH-MAN
TG: FCO-MAD-FCO
AC: HNL-SYD-HNL
(RG: LHR-CPH-LHR)
(RG: AMS-CDG-AMS)
20 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2020
 
AADC10
Posts: 1511
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:40 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:48 am

I would suspect that the most lucrative 5th freedom rights are the combined NW/UA rights at NRT. SQ has some really good ones as well, although spread around.
 
777FlyGuy
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:29 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting 777D (Reply 2):
I believe BA has SEA-SYD rights?

True, they've had it for years and highly unlikely they will ever use them.
 
b737100
Posts: 129
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 7:29 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:15 pm

dont forget a long time route of JAL YVR/MEX and the recently discontinued LAX/YYZ on LY
Boeing 737 sunjet service
 
AirScoot
Posts: 667
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 10):
Does PR have 5th freedom rights on LAS-YVR?

Yes.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:16 am

NZ has LAX-LHR / HKG-LHR / PPT-LAX / NAN-LAX / APW-LAX / NAN-RAR currently used and a whole truckload of dormant rights
 
bastew
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:21 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:28 am

BA has GRU/EZE/GRU rights.

Also SYD/SIN/SYD and SYD/BKK/SYD
 
ktachiya
Posts: 1519
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:54 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:56 pm

Doesn't KE have NRT-LAX

SQ has that route as well. I remember TG also operated that route. As well as KIX-LAX as well, 3x a week.

And yes, as stated before, JL: NRT-JFK-GRU, NRT-YVR-MEX

I think CX operates HKG-TPE- KIX or NRT and EG operate TPE-HKG or something.
Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
 
bastew
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:21 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:16 pm

ET BKK - HKG

AY BKK - HKG

EK BKK- HKG

CI BKK - HKG
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:27 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 1):

MAN-Pakistan is one of PK's most lucrative 5th freedom routes ORD-MAN-Pakistan

ORD-MAN is 5th freedom, MAN/KHI is certainly Nos 3+4

more:

AI BHX-YYZ
LA MAD-FRA
EK HAM-JFK

BNE-AKL served 5th by GA,EK,TG,BI
SYD-AKL served 5th by EK,LA,AR
SYD-CHC just by EK
MEL-AKL just by EK

many more, from the open skies paradises SIN, DXB, more in South America from GRU/BUE/SCL no time to check and verify
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
CXA330300
Posts: 1318
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 5:51 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:44 pm

SQ has JFK-FRA.......if I understand correctly they do reasonably well with that.

Several airlines, such as LX and AY, run BKK-SIN flights.
Home airport now: DCA/IAD
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2637
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:44 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 5):
Air India has 5th freedom on EWR-CDG and JFK-LHR. I'm not sure how much traffic they get, but at least on EWR-CDG it winds up being a "low-fare" option compared to AF, CO, et al.

They seem to be doing well on those routes.....they have been operating LHR-JFK for more than 40 years now and LHR-ORD for almost 10 years.....

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 6):
How about AI's ORD-LHR/FRA and LAX-FRA or even YYZ-BHX?? Are these 5th freedom flights?

I'm sure they are.....
 
imiakhtar
Posts: 611
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 3:35 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 1):
MAN-Pakistan is one of PK's most lucrative 5th freedom routes

 checkmark 
I don't know what PK would do without MAN
Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky?
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2637
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:44 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:38 am

AI also operate flights to PVG via BKK and KIX via HKG....do those routes involve 5th Freedom Rights...?
 
imiakhtar
Posts: 611
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 3:35 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:46 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 24):
AI also operate flights to PVG via BKK and KIX via HKG....do those routes involve 5th Freedom Rights...?

I think they do.
Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky?
 
MH1402
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:39 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:50 am

there is also TPE-LAX-TPE serve by MH
For the King and country...
 
AF454GRU
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:50 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:15 am

JL holds 5th freedom rights for JFK-GRU-JFK on its way to Japan...
RG operated CDG-AMS-CDG until few months ago and AF has rights for LAX-PPT-LAX...
 
User avatar
B747-437B
Posts: 8903
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:22 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 24):
AI also operate flights to PVG via BKK and KIX via HKG....do those routes involve 5th Freedom Rights...?

AI operates with 5th freedom rights on the following routes :

LHR-JFK
LHR-ORD
FRA-ORD
FRA-LAX
CDG-EWR
BHX-YYZ
BKK-NRT
BKK-PVG
BKK-HKG
HKG-KIX
HKG-ICN
SIN-CGK
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:31 am

Fifth freedom operations have become much less significant since aircraft have had the range to operate most routes nonstop. In the old 707, DC-8, and early widebody days, there were far more 5th freedom routes than today, simply because they needed the intermediate stops to refuel.

Nowadays, not many 5th freedom routes are major revenue generators, especially in the secondary markets where the carrier may have only 2 or 3 flights a week. For example, why would anyone want to fly JL YVR-MEX which they've been operating twice a week with 5th freedom rights for almost 30 years, when there are daily services on other carriers. If you want to change your travel date, a 5th freedom carrier with less than daily service isn't very attractive.
 
COSPN
Posts: 1834
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:40 am

CI: NRT-HNL is a good one as is KE: LAX-NRT
 
BAxMAN
Posts: 655
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 7:51 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:47 am

Of the ones not mentioned here, BA have:
BAH-DOH
AUH-MCT

Plus quite a few in the Caribbean:
NAS-GCM
NAS-PLS
ANU-UVF
ANU-GND
ANU-TAB

Chances are that they'll also have 5th Freedom between BGI-POS when this starts up.

BMED have rights for:
BEY-KRT
GYD-FRU (Baku - Bishkek, but currently unutilised)

Some may also argue that BA use 5th Freedom between MAN-JFK, given that MAN is not in London.

**Edited to add that GB Airways also have the rights for FEZ-RAK in Morocco, which is quite nice.

[Edited 2006-11-23 23:49:49]
Mild green Fairy liquid
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:10 am

QF also have seasonal SFO-YVR-SFO service.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
VHVXB
Posts: 5322
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:54 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:40 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 32):
QF also have seasonal SFO-YVR-SFO service.....

mentioned above
CX BKK-BOM, SIN-CGK, BKK-CMB, BKK-BOM, BKK-KHI
VS HKG-SYD
OS KUL-SYD
MS BKK-PEK
LH CAN-MNL, BKK-SGN, BKK-KUL, SIN-CGK
EK KUL-SIN SIN-CGK KUL-CGK CMB-SIN MLE-CMB
AY will begin BKK-KUL-BKK next May after ending BKK-HKG-BKK to make HKG a non-stop destination from HEL all year round

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 28):
LHR-JFK
LHR-ORD
FRA-ORD
FRA-LAX
CDG-EWR
BHX-YYZ
BKK-NRT
BKK-PVG
BKK-HKG
HKG-KIX
HKG-ICN
SIN-CGK

AI has quite a few Intra asian routes
 
FL370
Posts: 239
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 2:25 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:55 pm

UA/NW have some good 5th freedom rights from NRT throughout asia


fl730
 
Argentina
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 12:05 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:29 pm

Regarding Aerolineas Argentinas:
AR makes use of:MVD-POA, BOG-MEX, AKL-SYD, MAD-CDG, MAD-LGW

Regarding Airlines flying to/from EZE:
AC: EZE-SCL
AF: EZE-SCL
LH: EZE-GRU
BA: EZE-GRU
G3: EZE-SCL
MH: EZE-CPT/JNB
NM: EZE-FOR
PZ: EZE-MVD
UA: EZE-MVD
AA: EZE-MVD
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:43 pm

Quoting BAxMAN (Reply 31):
Some may also argue that BA use 5th Freedom between MAN-JFK, given that MAN is not in London

it may not be visible in all parts of the city, but last time I checked MAN was still in the UK. Hence, a carrier with regs starting with GB- operating MAN-JFK cannot do this under 5th freedom rights. Again, a classic 3rd/4th freedom route.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
User avatar
centrair
Posts: 2899
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:44 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:45 pm

Quoting FL370 (Reply 34):
UA/NW have some good 5th freedom rights from NRT throughout asia

They have 5th freedom rights through any Japanese airport
ie
NW
DTW-KIX-TPE
DTW-NGO-MNL

UA
SFO-NGO-TPE

5th freedom through Japan are lucrative but not as much as it used to be. This is why UA has started more non-stops and NW is looking at adding more non-stops overflying Japan.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
VHVXB
Posts: 5322
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:54 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:08 pm

Oh and not to forget EKs HAM-JFK route
 
klyk1980
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:58 am

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:13 pm

AI with HKG-ICN as well.
CX with TPE-ICN/NGO/KIX as well
TG with HKG-ICN/TPE
AC with EZE-SCL or vice versa

I truly think NZ's HKG-LHR is one of the most lucrative one because this is the only Star Alliance HKG-LHR connection, and everyone knows this is one of the most busiest long-haul operations in the world, used to dominate by OneWorld.

CX - 4 daily
BA - 3 daily
VS - 1 daily
QF - 1 daily
NZ - 1 daily
Oasis - 3 weekly, eventually 1 daily

All in either B747 orA340
 
VHVXB
Posts: 5322
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:54 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Carriers

Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:07 pm

Quoting Klyk1980 (Reply 39):
VS - 1 daily

Don't VS have 2 daily services between HKG and LHR. One a terminus and the other onward to SYD?

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