LH Tipped To Launch Pax 747-8

planemaker · Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:25 pm

Reported in RATI today that Boeing is expected to secure a launch order for the pax 747-8 from LH pending final LH leadership approval for an order of 20 firm plus 20 options. Confirmation is expected sometime this week. It is reported that B and LH had reached agreement on terms over a series of meetings on 30 November and 1 December. The article goes on to state that given the delays to the A380, it now seems possible that the first 747-8s could arrive within a few months of the initial EIS of the A380. RATI says that B is expected to announce that the LH 747-8 is aiming for EIS in mid-2010.

The LH order breakthrough appears to be related to Boeing's recent decision to adopt the same 5.6m (18.4ft) fuselage stretch, compared with the 747-400, for the baseline passenger version as it had for the freighter.

Standardising both 747-8 offerings around the freighter’s fuselage length increases the 747-8’s typical three-class seating by 17 seats to 467 over the original version offered, but results in a 270nm (500km) range penalty.

The original 747-8 had a 2m forward fuselage plug, but the new version's plug is increased to 4.1m. The overhead galley option, in which Lufthansa is believed to have shown great interest, increases three-class seating by 12 seats to 479.

ClassicLover · Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:29 pm

That's excellent news! Hopefully we'll see an announcement later this week!

scouseflyer · Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:38 pm

Quoting Planemaker (Thread starter):
Reported in RATI today

Is RATI a trusted source?

planemaker · Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:40 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 2):
Is RATI a trusted source?

Go to Rati.com to judge for yourself... Wink

CrazyHorse · Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:45 pm

Great News for Boeing and the B747-8 and also for Lufthansa.
Hope this come true.

DAL767400ER · Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:53 pm

As much as I'd love to see this happen, given all the hype about it over the past weeks, I'll believe it when I see a Lufthansa 748I order on Boeing's order page. Until then, my doubt's still alive.

PADSpot · Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:55 pm

Isn't the launch customer of a new aircraft type always tipped?

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 2):
Is RATI a trusted source?

Well, nobody doubt that LH WILL order the 747-8I. But 20 firm orders is a bit large for a LH order ... their initial orders are typically smaller. I think the 15 frames order that was speculated about before is much more realitistic.

columba · Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:02 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 5):
As much as I'd love to see this happen, given all the hype about it over the past weeks, I'll believe it when I see a Lufthansa 748I order on Boeing's order page. Until then, my doubt's still alive.

Agreed especially if you recall the FAZ article published yesterday:
http://www.faz.net/s/RubC8BA5576CDEE...883A660~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html

In which a LH manager said that there will be no A350 or 747 orders this year.

2wingtips · Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:05 pm

All I'll say is that RATI is a highly credible industry source, as is AW&ST which predicted an LH 748i order recently. I'm starting to believe something may happen here.

eraugrad02 · Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:56 pm

OOOOOh OOOOh i'm excited. Plz let this bet true LOL. The plane will look great in LH scheme.

LHUSA · Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:04 pm

I really hope this is true! Word is though, that nothing has been decided just yet. I personally have a very strong feeling that LH will go with the 748i.

redflyer · Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:07 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 7):
Agreed especially if you recall the FAZ article published yesterday:
http://www.faz.net/s/RubC8BA5576CDEE...883A660~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html

In which a LH manager said that there will be no A350 or 747 orders this year.

Can't read German (I'm the typical ignorant American). Who exactly was the manager or what was his position? Also, did he (she) say there will be no A350 or 747 orders this year or just that there won't be any orders this year? The former implies that they are going to order A350s and 747s, but just not this year.

Regards,

R

Stitch · Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:22 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 6):
Well, nobody doubt that LH WILL order the 747-8I. But 20 firm orders is a bit large for a LH order ... their initial orders are typically smaller. I think the 15 frames order that was speculated about before is much more realistic.

However, Boeing probably needs something closer to 20 frames just to give the 748I a firm "push" into the marketplace and try and shake loose some more orders. And I imagine Boeing was willing to deal - especially with an A388 operator like LH - to get those 20 frames. An extra 5% off or so could be enough to sweeten the deal, especially if LH feels that they want a 747-sized replacement for part of their 744 fleet.

jacobin777 · Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
However, Boeing probably needs something closer to 20 frames just to give the 748I a firm "push" into the marketplace and try and shake loose some more orders. And I imagine Boeing was willing to deal - especially with an A388 operator like LH - to get those 20 frames. An extra 5% off or so could be enough to sweeten the deal, especially if LH feels that they want a 747-sized replacement for part of their 744 fleet.

Not only that, but it could also be other incentives for spares, etc.

This would certainly be a great jumpstart for LH...maybe that will get other carriers such as BA and CX on board....

NYC777 · Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:46 pm

Now how about an order for the 787s and the 77W?

I wonder if this would include 748F adnd possibly 777Fs?

LHStarAlliance · Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:49 pm

Oh , I hope this is true , Lufthansa will still have Jumbos (747) in the fleet !

And trust me , it will look great !

jacobin777 · Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:45 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 14):
Now how about an order for the 787s and the 77W?

I wonder if this would include 748F adnd possibly 777Fs?

I would rather have Boeing save the 787 slots for BA.... Smile

DIA · Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:54 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):
I would rather have Boeing save the 787 slots for BA....

I know BA has stated before that they would stick with Boeing for widebodies and Airbus for the narrows, but I gotta say, at this point, I am feeling that BA is going to be a big launch customer for the A350XWB...with many incentives attached.

beech19 · Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:57 am

This is all excellent news! If it turns out to be true... I wonder if this is the "stunning" thing that Eureka was bragging about in the other thread yesterday about the 748i "in the next couple days"...

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 14):
Now how about an order for the 787s and the 77W?

I wonder if this would include 748F adnd possibly 777Fs?

Just order a little of everything... throw some 739ER's in their too... just for kicks. hehe

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):
I would rather have Boeing save the 787 slots for BA....

I don't care who orders them... just keep them coming. Smile

DABZF · Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:58 am

I think that this is what is going to happen:
LH will order the 748 "just" to keep the Boeing connection. *)
I would be really surprised to see 787 or not to mention 777 order from LH!
A350 order to come next year...

*) This will leave some 744's to be converted freighters for Lufthansa Cargo. 5 (I think) already even have the cargo door as being combi's once...

...and I have no idea why I replied to this speculation thread which I normally always ignore... well go figure Wink

probably just bored.

NYC777 · Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:11 am

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 18):
I don't care who orders them... just keep them coming.

It'll keep u busy for the next 8-9 years a least!!!! Not bad to have that kind of guaranteed work...especially when your porduct essentially sells itself!

Stitch · Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 14):
Now how about an order for the 787s and the 77W?

If LH orders the 748I I am of the opinion they will not order the 773ER.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 14):
I wonder if this would include 748F and possibly 777Fs?

748F would probably be a given, if I am remembering comments that LH misses their 747Fs. LH could probably hold on the 777F if their MD-11F fleet is sufficient, otherwise they could go with it.

Quoting DIA (Reply 17):
I know BA has stated before that they would stick with Boeing for widebodies and Airbus for the narrows, but I gotta say, at this point, I am feeling that BA is going to be a big launch customer for the A350XWB...with many incentives attached.

Well BA has said they're willing to wait until 2013 to place orders, so if Airbus can deliver on schedule, the A350XWB would be available.

The 787-3 could be a nice option for BA's 763s that haul palletized freight around Europe (ARN and such) which could move BA to take the 787-8 as their long-haul 763 replacement. If they exercise their 777 options for the 773ER then that would give them a nice breather to wait for the A350X-1000.

jacobin777 · Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:39 am

Quoting DIA (Reply 17):
I know BA has stated before that they would stick with Boeing for widebodies and Airbus for the narrows, but I gotta say, at this point, I am feeling that BA is going to be a big launch customer for the A350XWB...with many incentives attached.

I shall respectfully disagree for the following reasons..

1)large Boeing widebody fleet with Boeing pilots
2)Chairman and BA board have traditionally purchased Boeing widebodies..(though they have basically switched to Airbus for the short-haul)
3)outstanding 777 order
4)price/costs of the 787 versus A350
5)With a large shorthaul Airbus fleet, I'm not so sure if BA wants to go with one manufacturer
6)the 787 will possibly be a better fit (and I think this is the most important of them all)....

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 18):

I don't care who orders them... just keep them coming.

Hey, no disagreements with me there mate..but I was only concerned about those valuable 787 slots... Smile

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):

If LH orders the 748I I am of the opinion they will not order the 773ER

...I doubt we'll see any pax versions of the 777 in LH colours.. Sad

beech19 · Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 20):
It'll keep u busy for the next 8-9 years a least!!!! Not bad to have that kind of guaranteed work...especially when your porduct essentially sells itself!

yeah... no complaints from me. Smile

Since they sold so well, so fast and we haven't built one yet... a procurment agent told me the following (tongue in cheek of course):

Agent: So would you like to buy my product?
Customer: What do they do? How much?
Agent: They go really really far, carry lots of people, keep the earth green and... cost $160mil a peice(mumbles the price), did i mention they look cool!
Customer: Sure! I'll take a bunch!
Agent: That will be $3.4Bil, Cash, Check or Charge? They will be ready for x-mas in about 10 years...
Customer: Uhhh...

DAL767400ER · Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
f I am remembering comments that LH misses their 747Fs.

That's true. LHC doesn't really miss the fuel burn of ther 742Fs, but they do miss the 74's capacity advantage over the MD-11, and from what I have read, they also miss the nose-loading capability the 747s had over the MD-11 (and pretty much every other type of freighter made by A or B.

flysherwood · Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:56 am

Thorben, where are you? Smile

PanAmOldDC8 · Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:57 am

I am new at this only having joined today, but have been associated with the airline industry since the early 60'S. I am happy for Boeing as I like their aircraft, and if this is true I wonder whether other carriers will order the new/ old version of the 747. As far as I am concerned it is still the queen of the skies, I remember the launch and the fanfare that went with it. I remember the old maintenance people not liking it as they said it was too big and Pan Am could never fill it, it cause a lot of head aches for Pan Am when it was launched, especially after the Tenireiffe accident. Thanks for the great posts

wjcandee · Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 11):
Can't read German (I'm the typical ignorant American).

Go to altavista.com and click on Babel Fish Translation. Copy and paste the web page link in the box, select "german to english", click and you'll get a decent, free mechanical translation of the web page. Smooth? No. All the words in the right order? No. But comprehensible? Ya.

siromega · Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:27 am

Quoting Planemaker (Thread starter):
The original 747-8 had a 2m forward fuselage plug, but the new version's plug is increased to 4.1m. The overhead galley option, in which Lufthansa is believed to have shown great interest, increases three-class seating by 12 seats to 479.

How many seats is that in real terms? (how many seats will LH really equip).

Someone FINALLY ordered one of those "extras" Boeing has made a fuss over but no one ever opted for. They've made a big deal about suites, meeting rooms, whatever else, but no airlines bite. Forget all that fancy crap, its all about how many people can you put on an aircraft.

Iloveboeing · Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:29 am

Quoting SirOmega (Reply 28):

Someone FINALLY ordered one of those "extras" Boeing has made a fuss over but no one ever opted for. They've made a big deal about suites, meeting rooms, whatever else, but no airlines bite. Forget all that fancy crap, its all about how many people can you put on an aircraft.

Agreed. While the fancy extras are nice, the airlines are more interested in lower seat-mile costs.

BoomBoom · Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:31 am

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 26):
t cause a lot of head aches for Pan Am when it was launched, especially after the Tenireiffe accident. Thanks for the great posts

Tenireiffe was the planes fault?

redflyer · Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:34 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 27):
Smooth? No. All the words in the right order? No.

Does it work? No...

Error decoding translated text.
We're sorry we've encountered an error with your request.
If you think this is a bug we should know about send us e-mail and let us know the following:

* What browser you were using.
* The operating system you are on.
* The type of translation you were trying when this error occurred.

The error encountered is: 157

Oh well, no big deal. I guess I'll just wait to see if an announcement is made or not by LH regarding a widebody order this year.

jacobin777 · Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 26):
I am new at this only having joined today, but have been associated with the airline industry since the early 60'S. I am happy for Boeing as I like their aircraft, and if this is true I wonder whether other carriers will order the new/ old version of the 747. As far as I am concerned it is still the queen of the skies, I remember the launch and the fanfare that went with it. I remember the old maintenance people not liking it as they said it was too big and Pan Am could never fill it, it cause a lot of head aches for Pan Am when it was launched, especially after the Tenireiffe accident. Thanks for the great posts

Welcome to the forum PanAmOldDC8... Smile

Look foreword to reading your posts thumbsup

PanAmOldDC8 · Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:37 am

In reply to Boom Boom, no it was not the planes fault, but it did cause Pan Am to loose revenue for several months after the collision. The problem when Pan Am launched the 747 they were few landing strips and terminals in the world that could handle the "big old bird".

brendows · Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting SirOmega (Reply 28):
How many seats is that in real terms? (how many seats will LH really equip).

LH seats 330, 349, 368 and 390 pax in the different seat configs in their 747 fleet (according to seatguru.) You can probably add about 50 seats to these configs, and you'll probably end up not too far from the number of seats that LH would use on a 748i.

BoomBoom · Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:55 am

Quoting SirOmega (Reply 28):
Forget all that fancy crap, its all about how many people can you put on an aircraft.

Still, it seems like they should find a way to utilize some of that empty space. It seems like a real waste not to.

Maybe sleeping berths and meeting rooms are impractical. But crew rests, lavs, and a galley might be practical.

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 33):
In reply to Boom Boom, no it was not the planes fault, but it did cause Pan Am to loose revenue for several months after the collision.

So why did you bring it up? It was ATC's and KLM's fault.

Quote:
The problem when Pan Am launched the 747 they were few landing strips and terminals in the world that could handle the "big old bird".

Again, not the planes fault. PanAm had to know this when they asked Boeing to build it and then bought it.

PanAmOldDC8 · Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:06 am

In reply to Boom Boom, I brought it up to show that even things that were not the fault of the airplane can cause airlines to suffer
You have to remember that PAN AM was the leader in the 60'S and they did things that most airlines would not have attempted. They were the ones that called for the design of the 747 and 727
PAN AM was the innovator in those days and most of the time they were right on the money. The 747 is an aircraft that will go down in history.

leelaw · Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:08 am

WSJ 12/05/06:

Lufthansa to Order 20 Boeing 747s

...In a major boost for Boeing Co. at the expense of its European rival, longtime Airbus customer Deutsche Lufthansa AG could announce as soon as Wednesday that it will be the first to order the passenger version of Boeing's updated 747 jumbo jet.

According to people familiar with the situation, Lufthansa has agreed to place firm orders for 20 planes, as well as taking options for 20 more. The firm orders are valued at more than $5 billion at list prices, although launch customers typically win steep discounts...

...Although something could happen at the last minute to delay or derail the deal, Lufthansa's board is scheduled to meet Wednesday to give the deal final approval, these people said. Executives at the carrier and Boeing reached a handshake agreement late last week...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB116533937626741258.html

[Edited 2006-12-05 19:10:40]

bringiton · Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:15 am

Would be great news for the 747-8I program , I'll still wait until it happens though!!

DAYflyer · Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:20 am

LH ordering the 8I would be great news indeed. Can't wait for the official press release....IF it is true.....which I doubt........

N328KF · Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:21 am

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 38):
Would be great news for the 747-8I program , I'll still wait until it happens though!!

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 39):
LH ordering the 8I would be great news indeed. Can't wait for the official press release....IF it is true.....which I doubt........

If The Wall Street Journal says it's a near-certainty, then that reflects reality. We're not talking about Justplanes.com or airliners.net here.

[Edited 2006-12-05 19:23:41]

ordpia · Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:22 am

I have to say I was getting worried about the -8i program, but this is great news. Congrats to the guys down the street and to LH!

jacobin777 · Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 37):
WSJ 12/05/06:

Lufthansa to Order 20 Boeing 747s

...In a major boost for Boeing Co. at the expense of its European rival, longtime Airbus customer Deutsche Lufthansa AG could announce as soon as Wednesday that it will be the first to order the passenger version of Boeing's updated 747 jumbo jet.

According to people familiar with the situation, Lufthansa has agreed to place firm orders for 20 planes, as well as taking options for 20 more. The firm orders are valued at more than $5 billion at list prices, although launch customers typically win steep discounts...

...Although something could happen at the last minute to delay or derail the deal, Lufthansa's board is scheduled to meet Wednesday to give the deal final approval, these people said. Executives at the carrier and Boeing reached a handshake agreement late last week...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1165....html

Thanks for the link Leelaw.. checkmark

If true, it will be amazing....hopefully that will get the other carriers such as BA,CX, EK to order the planes too.. cloudnine

redflyer · Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:23 am

From the article...

The move is an especially harsh blow to Airbus because Lufthansa, in 2001, was among the first customers for the A380 superjumbo, which Airbus has marketed as a replacement for old 747s.

Gee, I wonder why this would be a harsh blow to Airbus. Surely, Airbus did not intend the WhaleJet to be a replacement for all 747s. Or did they? Mmmm.

beech19 · Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 38):
Would be great news for the 747-8I program , I'll still wait until it happens though!!

As much as i want this deal to happen i'm trying to keep my hopes mum until the announcment, if its legit.

This is what the 748i program needs. Once/If this order completes i think we will see the rest of the potential customers make their decisions.

For some reason no one wanted to be the first... this time.

billreid · Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:28 am

A clear message to Airbus.....
Your are so healthy today that we are once again going back to Boeing.

Germany and Airbus are breaking apart.

Watch for Germany to eventually kill their Airbus commitment and the company to become virtually completely French.

United787 · Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:32 am

CNBC just quote the WSJ report.

I won't believe it until Boeing puts it on the books!

NYC777 · Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:44 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 43):
Gee, I wonder why this would be a harsh blow to Airbus. Surely, Airbus did not intend the WhaleJet to be a replacement for all 747s. Or did they? Mmmm.

I think they did. This will lessen the chance that LH will exercise the A380 options they currently hold. They may do it at a later date but I think for now they won't exercise them and that is a big blow.

scouseflyer · Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:45 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 45):
A clear message to Airbus.....
Your are so healthy today that we are once again going back to Boeing.

Germany and Airbus are breaking apart.

Watch for Germany to eventually kill their Airbus commitment and the company to become virtually completely French.

That's all a big dramatic based on one unsubstantiated news report.......

LHStarAlliance · Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 42):
According to people familiar with the situation, Lufthansa has agreed to place firm orders for 20 planes, as well as taking options for 20 more. The firm orders are valued at more than $5 billion at list prices, although launch customers typically win steep discounts...

Wow ! This sounds serious , and WSJ is a pretty respectable magazine .

I can´t believe this Big grin

, but I´ld also love a 777 order .

Strange they order 20 A/C so the Intercont fleet will be :

15 380

20 748

12 346 (+7 on order)

28 343

10 330 (+5 on order)

Well LH future fleet:

380
748
350/787
346
330
321
320
319

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